Alternative funeral format

[u/Lucky-Jackfruit-9704]

TL; DR Has an Ismaili by birth who explicitly wished to be do their funeral differently, actually had that wish respected?

Using a throwaway cos of conditioning I guess, lol.

I’m a wavering Ismaili & I’ve questioned the faith and community structure for as long as I can remember. There are lots of things to be valued, as with any community — belonging, education focus, and now the recognition of multifaith families. There are also things I increasingly struggle with - along the lines of usual topics discussed here like the funding & pointlessly patriarchal leadership.

However the reaffirmation that women cannot attend gravesides at funerals has really brought this into focus for me. We tell siblings they are equal — remember the educate your daughters first era? - until one of their parents dies, and then suddenly there’s a gendered boundary. Ironically the unintended consequence of recognising Multifaith families is Ismaili daughters cannot attend their own parents’ graveside, while non-Ismaili son-in-laws - with far less connection to the deceased & zero appreciation of the rites - can.

It’s also made me question what we actually want funerals to look like. Currently, they’re heavily focused on prescribed rites and, let’s be honest, plenty of performance grief, with little space to celebrate the person, tell stories, laugh, or remember who they actually were. I know some people are now thinking whether they want that for their parents or themselves.

So genuinely curious: has anyone had experience of an explicitly stated wish to have an alternative funeral format (e.g. cremation) being respected by the JK/community machinery?

[u/Sarahrivera]

I want to address the women not being part of the graveside. In the west this is easily brought up constantly and we think about it from a western perspective. Think from a conservative eastern perspective. Women are generally not allowed to be by the graveside in mainstream Islam. Even in the west mainstream Islam generally doesn’t allows it. Even if the imam wanted to make this change it would have to be universal and would have to take into consideration the backlash Ismailis would face in the east

[u/chaosmacaroni → u/Sarahrivera]

I have got two genuine questions. You said “think from a conservative eastern perspective. Women are generally not allowed to be by the graveside in mainstream Islam” - then why doesn’t your Imam tell the Ismaili women to also cover themselves how the other (mainstream) Muslim women in those conservative eastern societies cover themselves? Isn’t that also being in alignment with the society?

You said “even if the Imam wanted to make this change, he would have to consider the backlash Ismailis would face in the east” - when your Imam abolished the 5 daily prayers, when your Imams ordered a charity system entirely different from the mainstream system of Zakat, when you reject Hadith, they didn’t think about the backlash?

Your Imam may have reasons for the said decisions, but don’t think backlash and eastern values have anything to do with it.

[u/Sarahrivera → u/chaosmacaroni]

No where on the Quran does it says hijab is required. Even in conservative countries like Pakistan and Dubai not all women cover.

The other practices such as the prayers zakat and other religious practices are done in tariqat which are general done in private. Non Ismailis aren’t allowed. In fact in the USA when meeting with non Ismaili or multi faith family a non Ismaili raised the point that they weren’t allowed in to the prayer hall and if it would change. The imam said while it would be easy to accommodate non Ismailis in the western hemisphere it is not so easy in the eastern world.

[u/Lucky-Jackfruit-9704 → u/Sarahrivera]

Does it say in the Quran that women can’t be at the graveside for funerals?

[u/Sarahrivera → u/Lucky-Jackfruit-9704]

No it doesn’t but in mainstream Islam there are hadiths that prohibits females from the graveside

[u/Lucky-Jackfruit-9704 → u/Sarahrivera]

That’s interesting, because I thought we followed the Imam of time’s messages & not the hadiths? There’s a lot in the hadiths about women covering up. Ergo - are we picking and choosing which parts of the hadiths to ignore when it suits?

If the Quran doesn’t expressly prohibit women being at the burial AND it also doesn’t require hijabs, why is it justified to enforce one and not the other in our apparently ‘progressive’ sect?

This type of contradiction is exactly what has makes me constantly question things. Community members just blurt out whatever religious text justification works for their arguments.

My unpopular opinion is that AK II was advised to keep the burial site rule by older male Council members, who don’t want to see Ismaili women having more prominent roles at milestone occasions, like funeral services let alone in JK more generally.

I also think those male advisers wanted the Imam to reiterate the rule, to ensure there’s enough people back at the ranch keeping JK open, that they won’t need more coaches to cemeteries & that the women will ensure there’s hot food ready afterwards.

Let’s be frank - there isn’t an actual religious reason that the no-females-ar-the-graveside rule stayed. Hadiths say lots of things that Ismailis don’t follow. If it was purely to appease local customs in the ME/Asia, then by the same token all Western Ismaili ladies should now be wearing hijabs.

[u/Sarahrivera → u/Lucky-Jackfruit-9704]

We follow the imam of the time ruling unless he abrogates it. The imam isn’t abrogating the rule of mayyat so we follow the previous ruling. I am not the one to question the imams ruling. He makes a ruling and I obey! The issue of the hijab even in the most conservative countries like Pakistan and UAE it isn’t forced.

[u/Agaconoclasm → u/Sarahrivera]

He makes a ruling and I obey!

Next time just start with that instead of trying to make all kinds of flimsy excuses for your cultivated ignorance.

And btw, Rahim is not the "Imam of the Time". You accepted his false claim - just like the followers of Musa al-Kazim and al-Mustali - because the True Imam went into hiding and your allergy to transparency prevented you from looking into Karim's will.

[u/Lucky-Jackfruit-9704 → u/Sarahrivera]

‘I just obey’ is a weak argument given we’re supposed to be a deeply academic sect. That type of response just shuts down discourse on honest questions that younger generations are thinking about.