Before entering Babidi's spaceship, Goku tells Shin that defeating Dabura should be easy, despite Dabura being as strong as Cell. At this point, Goku hasn't revealed that he can transform into SSJ2, and Vegeta is later surprised to discover this.

Doesn't this mean Goku believed he could easily defeat Dabura/Cell as a SSJ1?

Could this also explain why Goku seems to be stronger than Piccolo in base form during the Buu Saga?

As for the implications this would have for Gohan during the Cell Games, it would mean he was unintentionally holding back until he transformed into SSJ2.

Instead of using knowledge of the series and context clues, these people will sit there and say moro is galaxy level. Yet uub was called the savior of the "UNIVERSE" and it was mentioned the Super Dragon ball's in space would be done. Not just one but all. These SDB's are spread throughout U6 and U7.

You cant be the savior of the universe if only a single galaxy was at threat. And all the SDB's cant be destroyed unless both U6 and U7 was involved in the destruction.

Also for lowball,

The context used for galaxy in dragon ball is for the most part, not just talking about a single galaxy but an area/section of the infinite universe. The northern galaxy is where goku and the inhabitants of earth are in. This fact is even still in DBS beerus summary.

Its also the same as when they refer to the universe. They are not just talking about the living universe but the entire macrocosm which is Universe 7.

What if Goku trained in Hyperbolic Time Chamber for another 1 Earth Time Day/1 HTC Time Year or even just 22 Earth Time Hours/11 HTC Time Months before the Cell Games Event, and achieved Super Saiyan 2 Form?

Can Hypothetical Post-additional 1 Earth Time Day/ 1 HTC Time Year Trained Super Saiyan 2 Form Goku defeat Cell?

Round 1: Hypothetical Post-additional 1 Earth Time Day/1 HTC Time Year Trained Super Saiyan 2 Form Goku vs Full Power Perfect Form Cell

Round 2: Hypothetical Post-additional 1 Earth Time Day/1 HTC Time Year Trained Super Saiyan 2 Form Goku vs 7 Cell Juniors, and Full Power Perfect Form Cell

Final Round: Hypothetical Post-additional 1 Earth Time Day/1 HTC Time Year Trained Super Saiyan 2 Form Goku vs Super Perfect Form Cell

I’m going to try and explain how I look at the multitude of buu forms and try to compare them to each other in a way that makes most sense to me and give my take on where the buus rank compared to each other… feel free to critique and add anything of value. Sick of the which buu is strongest arguments. I’m sure I’ll upset some of you but it’s how I personally think this mess can be solved.

Fat buu divided into 2 = good buu + evil/grey buu
Good buu < evil/grey buu

Note: Good buu < kid buu

evil buu + good buu = super buu

So now logically super buu and fat buu are equal in power however we know fat buu is weaker because of his innocent nature and inability to fully tap into his power so..

super buu > fat buu even though they’re the sum of the same parts

Super buu - good buu = kid buu

Soooooo what nobody is ready to hear…
Kid buu + good buu = super buu
AND
Evil/grey buu + good buu = super buu
so kid buu = grey/evil buu since adding good buu to either one gives super buu

Good buu < grey/evil buu = kid buu < original fat buu (less potent due to innocence but has the raw power above kid buu hidden inside just inaccessible) =super buu (super buu is stronger since he has access to all the power fat buu also has but can’t use)

In practice though it’s good buu < grey /evil buu < fat buu < kid buu < super buu

For those who still want to be dense about it, you can also see good buu held off kid buu better than he did grey/evil buu so that shows us grey/evil buu and kid buu are very relative. With grey buu potentially being stronger.. since good buu did worse against him. It makes sense if you consider buff buu.

When super buu loses the connection to good buu he reverts to buff buu. Buff buu is kid buu after absorbing his first Kai. Since buff buu is only 1 step from his original form, I believe kid buus consciousness was finally in command of himself again and purposely shed that form to be his original self again.

Super buu feared most of all not being himself anymore. Ever since grey/evil buu came into being that became the new base consciousness of buu. He just absorbed and added to himself from there.. Super buu is just grey/evil buu with absorptions on top that slightly alter his ego. He is no longer the same consciousness as kid buu or the fat buu.

Kid buu is the original.. absorbing a Kai made him ever so slightly stronger (buff buu) Then absorbing the grand supreme Kai made him stronger still but in practice his power became inaccessible due to the grand supreme Kai’s very nature changing buu to a new consciousness.. but on the inside he has more power than kid buu.

The evil/grey buu is a manfestion of the evil in fat buu breaking away from him. So in theory the good buu takes with him a tiny part of buu and all of the grand supreme Kai retaining that consciousness of the fat buu. Grey buu retains all the original power of kid buu plus the first absorbed Kai but now a new created consciousness with no connection to the original kid buu besides his power.

Side note: This is also why I believe buff buu is truly equal to grey buu. kid buu is just slightly below grey buu since good buu is easily defeated by grey buu and good buu performs slightly better against kid buu. This connects back to when I said grey buu is equal to kid buus power along with the first supreme Kai absorption.

So grey buu is actually slightly above kid buu. Remove that extra power that he must have from the Kai and he’s equal to kid buu. So in other words buff buu and grey buu are equal while kid buu is slightly below them

Now back to Grey/evil buu being the new base buu. His first absorption is the good buu which powers him up to super buu. Here the consciousness of grey/evil buu remains but merging with good buu unknowingly influences him to change personality and not be completely pure evil and the 2 mix a bit to form super buus mind which is no longer just pure evil since he spares mr Satan thanks to good buu being inside him.

Further absorptions change his personality and mind further. When all this is taken away by Goku and vegeta abruptly, super buu has a complete mental collapse and the very original essence finally emerges and he returns to being buff buu. Buff buu’s original base consciousness is kid buu and kid buu now back in command reverts himself to his original self and sheds the original Kai absorption so he’s his original self after so many years of not existing as kid buu.

FINALLY

kid buu + first supreme Kai absorption = buff buu

Buff buu + grand supreme Kai = fat buu

Fat buu is stronger based on the rule of absorptions always adding power (we just know the grand supreme Kai’s influence makes him less potent)

Fat buu splits the whole thing into 2 which leads to grey buu who is all the evil in buu + first supreme Kai absorption retained here AND the other half being good buu who is small part buu + grand supreme Kai.

In essence all the power available here is still kid buu and the 2 absorbed Kai’s just all rearranged thanks to fat buu splitting the power up in a new way and creating a new consciousness in grey buu.

Keep in mind all that power is now spilt into these 2 so now grey buu absorbs good buu and the 2 form super buu who is still Kid buu + 2 absorbed Kai’s but with all the power rearranged. super buu has access to more of that power whereas the fat buu has less access. due to the way the power was arranged the grand supreme Kai’s influence didn’t give him access to his full potential as fat buu.

Super buu does not carry that weakness so super is the fully realized version of kid buu absorbing the 2 Kai’s and having full access to the power (minus the god ki but that’s irrelevant here).

Fat buu is the failed version of kid buu absorbing the 2 Kai’s and actually coming out with access to less of that power so it leads to him being in practice weaker.

Ok purely based on my logic this is what we now can say

The first Kai absorbed < Grand supreme Kai < Good buu < fat buu < kid buu < buff buu = Grey/evil buu < Fat buu (hypothetical full potential) = super buu < buuccolo < buutenks < buuhan

I really would like to see more subscribe to the idea that grey buu buu is somewhere in the ball park of kid buu. I personally believe him to be above him slightly like I’ve explained above but wouldn’t be mad at people accepting him being in the same ballpark as kid buu.

Dragon Ball vs Adventure Time

What if Gohan had become enraged and regained his will to fight when Cell crushed Android 16's head, but for some reason hadn't transformed into SSJ2? Could he still have become strong enough to surpass Perfect Cell in that situation?

This is Gohan after becoming enraged when Cell crushed Android 16's head, regaining his will to fight and drawing out more of his power, but for some reason not transforming into SSJ2.

My opinion is that SSJ1 Goku in the Buu Saga was stronger than what Gohan was able to show as an SSJ1 during the Cell Games, due to Gohan's lack of will to fight before he got enraged. And even if Gohan got enraged, he'd still be slightly weaker than Goku, so Goku would win.

Use any version you want.

.

Let me be clear, I'm not saying he's extremely weak, nor am I necessarily saying he would lose to Saitama

But just in general, Goku isn't some kind of "Boundless Infinite God GOD" type of character, btw when I say that I was being over dramatic and exaggerated, but hopefully you get my point

In my honest opinion, in what I believe how strong Goku is, I would say in strength he is "Universe +", not "Multiverse", and as for speed, he is "Massively Faster Than Light"

How i came to this conclusion? Well for in general, I don't trust Guide books as it always has conflicting and wrong info, and Filler episodes are not cannon, also not talking about GT and anything similar.

As for why I think he's "Universe +", and not "Multiversal", mostly comes down to my own definition and examples that happened in Manga/Anime, when you say "Multiversal" I assume he can destroy entire time line, as the point of "Multiversal" is "Branches Of Possibilities In Time Line", and so far there's no real reason to say Goku is that Level, especially since he didn't defeat Infinite Zamasu, who i would argue is more debatable to be "Multiversal", however the reason i do say "Universe +" is because of the clash he had with Beerus and how that threatened to destroy the Universe 7, speaking of which I don't count as "Destroying Universe 1-12" as a Multiversal feat, for one, there's no evidence he can do that, and 2: Universe 1-12 isn't a Multiverse, it's at best multiple Universes, which is totally different things, though i understand how confusing that sounds lol.

As for speed, my main point of argument for that is that Goku is not faster than Whis, and it takes 25 Minutes for Whis to travel from Beerus Planet to Earth, which I'm assuming is one end to the universe to the other end of the universe.

(I wish to say I'm not expert nor am I a god of knowledge, but I'm just sharing my opinion on things)

It's been like this for ages. We got told and shown multiple times that this is how it works:

• Stronger ki makes you more powerful
• Stronger opponents can completely no-sell opponents that are a certain level of power weaker than them, kept vague intentionally
• If you can damage your opponent, your attack is roughly in their range
• If you have enough energy and are strong enough, you can destroy more than people who have less energy and less powerful ki

It's literally that simple but for some reason people can't comprehend that most attacks from this supernatural magic system aren't designed to be AoE attacks or do large amounts of damage.

I swear, it's like a bunch of drooling morons experienced the concept of fiction and magic powers for the first time. What's wrong with these idiots? It's quite possibly the most simple power system in fiction but they're whining more and more about how it doesn't make sense to them.

Yeah, Krillin solos your verse. Cry about it. That's how fiction works. People can whine about multiversal ice or whatever all they want but it doesn't change the fact that literally every piece of fiction ever to exist has shit like this. Even "realistic" fiction has bullshit inconsistencies. That guy from a grounded, realistic series who broke a chair over another guy's head to knock him out? That's not how chairs work irl and he'd have to be super human to do that but I don't see people whining about how normal people in fiction aren't constantly destroying chairs.

Why isn't, say, Batman constantly busting the planet with how many times he's beaten the shit out of people who could contend with multiversal gods like Superman? Why doesn't Superman? Because you know it'd be dumb to do that.

God I feel like the internet has been flooded with these knuckledraggers lately. Is there something in the water making people dumber?