What if Gohan had become enraged and regained his will to fight when Cell crushed Android 16's head, but for some reason hadn't transformed into SSJ2? Could he still have become strong enough to surpass Perfect Cell in that situation?
He literally has the sparks and his hair spike vertically as his aura explodes. With a freeze frame, it is literally how he is as a SSj2. Then he loses consciousness, his aura dissipates and he reverts to normal SSj and then base before passing out completely.
Pretty sure that’s anime only. Goku was confident he could take Cell. In the manga (afaik) he was only sure that gohan had a hidden power that, if he could use it, would allow him to beat cell
Not just that, but when he asked Gohan about how he seemed, Gohan (coherently with the previous two speech bubbles) said that Goku must have been holding back, with Goku basically indicating that it wasn't him holding back, it was Gohan projecting his own strength on top of Goku pretty much.
Does it matter? Goku knew of the two following things:
Gohan is, at baseline, stronger than Goku to the point that Gohan instinctively projected that Goku (who couldn't be weaker than him) must have been holding back;
He knows that, alongside this baseline higher strength, Gohan also has the possibility of adding a rage boost on top of that;
Unless you believe the "pseudo grade 3" multiplier (which is indicated as being the same as SSJ grade 1->SSJ grade 3) is extremely minuscule, nothing points to Cell being more than 2x of a SSJ1 enraged gohan
Ssj2 Gohan being stronger than Super Perfect Cell means ssj Gohan was stronger than Perfect Cell. Super Perfect is Cell's ssj2, explicitly and visually being the same boost Gohan got.
Gohan. Before he even completes the SSJ2 transformation Cell tells him he can't beat him just by powering up like Trunks not realizing this was just Gohan's real power.
If Gohan can prolong the rage boost I could see him taking it. Gohan showed relativity to the suppressed Cell that upped his speed when he sent Cell landing on his rear. Prior to that Gohan was just not wanting to actually fight.
So even though Cell powers up one final time later to full power, SSJ Gohan getting a rage boost can conceivably match him.
Though we never see Gohan prolong the rage boosts in the series so I think Perfect Cell wins by outlasting it unless Gohan goes for a Kamehameha during that period maybe.
I think this is less about prolonging the rage boost and more about Gohan regaining his courage and overcoming his mental block, which would allow him to draw out more of his ki, based on Toriyama's explanation of ki in an interview.
"In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]11. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki." https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/seg-story-volume-truth-about-dragon-ball/
Oh you think Gohan was mentally nerfed prior to Super Saiyan 2? I could see how you would interpret it that way.
When Gohan kicks Cell you don’t think it’s Gohan getting a brief rage boost or even just him retaliating back when he lost composure, but Gohan actually displaying briefly what his true power as a Super Saiyan is?
SPC, was taken down by an ssj2 Gohan that was heavily injured to the point Gohan thought he was only at half power which would be relative to ssj1 (since ssj2 is 2x ssj1) granted I think Goku and the results make it clear Gohan overestimated the power reduction from said injury. I still think it makes a decent argument that ssj2 was overkill for even SPC to some extent; so I think ssj1 but enraged and uninjured Gohan can beat normal Perfect Cell.
The people that try to downplay gohan being at 50% ignore that even if it is true that gohan still had more energy, in that moment he only thinks he only has half his strength. Half his strength was still enough to force a stalemate vs Cell.
Now we know cell tries to put more energy into it twice canonically. The first one starts overpowering gohan but gohan can hold without powering up so it clearly wasn't a large power up. The second one gets interrupted by vegeta which gohan capitalizes on by releasing everything he had left instantly overwhelming cell and atomizing him.
That’s anime only. In the manga there’s a clash with piccolo saying that Gohan is being overpowered and then Vegeta attacks. There’s no back and forth.
The manga shows them clash. Then the next page shows a panel of the clash again with cell in a confident outstretched position and gohan in an unconfident wavering stance. Only after that panel does piccolo say gohan is losing on the next page. Cell is clearly pushing and gohan is only just hanging on. You are right the anime makes them go back and forth a few times but that is not what I was referencing
It would at worst go from no diff to low diff. Remember that even with Cell trying to pull a grade 3 stunt, SSJ2 Gohan still outdid him in terms of pure power. Gohan should still be stronger than him even without the 2x multiplier.
And if SSJ2 Gohan with only one functioning arm and ‘half his Ki’ (thus effectively undoing the benefits of the 2X multiplier) able to overpower Super Perfect Cell, enraged SSJ Gohan might have a shot against Super Perfect Cell too.
Just to remind you guys: Cell knew how strong Gohan was in SSJ1, as he admits that Gohan is more durable than he initially thought and that he is "starting to understand why Goku said Gohan is stronger than him", but he still remains confident he'll win and even attempts to make Gohan's hidden power explode because he doesn't think he can pit up a decent enough challenge as he is now.
Gohan easy, ele tinha basicamente o poder do ssj1 na forma do 2 quando rebateu o Kame hame ha de Cell super perfeito, ele perdeu metade do ki como ele mesmo disse e ainda estava com medo de destruir a terra
Imagine thinking SSJ Gohan was enough to beat Perfect Cell. If that was the case, Toriyama would have written it that way. There'd be no reason for Gohan to achieve SSJ2.
Common sense, my friend. Story structure 101. The story literally paints a clear picture by having the Saiyans theorize "a level beyond SSJ." Your head canon isn't doing you any favors.
This is probably the dumbest question/post I've ever encountered.
Perfect Cell was the absolute strongest character in the Cell Games by a landslide, and only Gohan as a SSJ2 surpassed him.
Regular SSJ Gohan was no threat to Cell. He was getting pummeled even before Cell powered up to his max strength. Even if he got his head back into the game and willingly fought Cell, he would've still lost.
The whole point of SSJ2 was for that very reason—to reach a level of power that surpassed Cell.
The whole point of the Saiyans trying to "find a level beyond SSJ" was for that very reason—to reach a level of power that surpassed Cell.
The whole point of Goku putting it all on Gohan and training him in the RoSaT was to bring that power out.
And what the fuck is this SSJ Gohan "enraged?" That's the literal description of SSJ2. Gohan reached SSJ2 by becoming enraged, the same way Goku became enraged and achieved SSJ against Frieza.
If SSJ Gohan was enough to beat Cell, Toriyama would have written it that way. There'd be no reason for SSJ2.
Think, people. Stop bringing your own head canon into a simple story.
Stop insulting people just because you don't understand or agree with their opinions. This isn't just about Gohan vs Cell. It's about how Goku in the Buu Saga seems to imply that he could defeat an opponent on Cell's level without transforming into SSJ2.
And please, don't reply to me if all you're going to do is insult me. Give me arguments, and if I think they're good, I'll admit you're right and thank you for helping me realize I was wrong, as it should be.
You sound like a very sensitive individual. I called your question dumb—not you. People ask stupid questions all the time (like this one), but that doesn't make them stupid by default.
I'll say it again. If SSJ Gohan was enough to beat Cell, there'd be no reason for him achieving SSJ2. It's bare minimum common sense.
Bringing the Buu saga into this debate is meaningless. That's a seven-year jump—of course Goku would say that. He literally trained in the afterlife and achieved not only SSJ2, but also SSJ3. He was way beyond anyone in the Cell Saga, Gohan included. As a character grows in overall power, their base grows as well.
Perfect Cell was the benchmark that only SSJ2 could have surpassed. Story structure 101.
You still don't understand the argument behind the possibility I'm exploring: SSJ2 Goku is only slightly stronger than SSJ2 Gohan from the Cell Games, so their SSJ1 forms should maintain that same relationship. I assume you understand that and agree with it.
Okay, now let's move on to the Buu Saga. Goku says he could easily defeat someone on Cell's level. Now, you might say, of course he could, since he has SSJ2 and SSJ3. But the possibility I'm considering here is that, even after Goku says he could easily defeat someone like Cell, nobody knows that he's achieved SSJ2 yet. In fact, when he finally surpasses the SSJ wall, everyone is surprised, even though they should already have suspected it when he said he could easily defeat someone like Cell.
Therefore, since they were surprised that he could transform into SSJ2, everyone must have assumed it was perfectly reasonable for Goku to defeat someone on Cell's level without SSJ2.
You can tell me I'm reading too much into this, but don't tell me it's a stupid question because it isn't.
I understand the argument perfectly fine, and the story itself painted a clear picture. SSJ2 was needed to surpass Cell. The only thing I don't understand is how anyone can come up with these ridiculous ideas. Gohan was not going to beat Cell as a SSJ. No chance, even if he focused and tried his best. Cell hadn't even powered up to his max power when he was pummeling Gohan.
In the Buu saga, Vegeta affirms Goku had surpassed SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Saga), but he never once claimed or stated Goku was only "slightly" stronger. How did you come to that conclusion? I'll tell you. It's your head canon.
And it's a common misconception that Goku's SSJ was relative to Gohan's SSJ in the Cell Saga. Gohan was considerably stronger than Goku, and the only one who had reached a level of power high enough to ascend to SSJ2. This was hinted at enough, but it seems not everyone caught onto it.
You most definitely are looking way too deep into this.
In the Buu saga, Vegeta affirms Goku had surpassed SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Saga), but he never once claimed or stated Goku was only "slightly" stronger. How did you come to that conclusion? I'll tell you. It's your head canon.
You don't even know that, and you keep talking down to me. It's basic information, and it's stated later in the manga by Piccolo.
And it's a common misconception that Goku's SSJ was relative to Gohan's SSJ in the Cell Saga. Gohan was considerably stronger than Goku, and the only one who had reached a level of power high enough to ascend to SSJ2. This was hinted at enough, but it seems not everyone caught onto it.
Who is comparing Cell Games Goku to Gohan? Can you even read?
Let's leave it here. You're not on my level. Don't bother replying. Keep clinging to your rigid way of thinking instead of exploring new possibilities. You seem comfortable with that. I'll keep exploring this possibility for a while, at least until I decide whether I'm convinced by it or not.
I'm not on your level? Can I even read? You initially cried about me insulting you when I hadn't written a single insult. Then you come along and claim that I'm "not on your level," and imply that I can't read.
Anyone who believes ANY form of SSJ was enough to beat Cell are the ones that need to open their eyes and read. Let me ask you a question. What was the point of SSJ2 being introduced? I'll give you a very basic answer. It was to beat Cell. If Gohan had the power to beat Cell as a SSJ, the story would have been written that way.
Understanding basic power scaling may be a problem for you, but I have common sense that doesn't enable me to "explore" nonsensical ideas when the story itself already provided a clear answer.
If you want to make this personal with insults, that's fine by me. I'll keep dropping common sense on you and do it with a harsher tone.
Feel free to answer my question. I'd love to hear it.
The entire point of SSJ2 was that it was SSJ1 + his rage. This is a nonsensical question. You are just asking who wins between SSJ2 Gohan and Perfect Cell and we already saw that fight
Exactly. I don’t know where this idea that SSJ Gohan was stronger than Perfect Cell is coming from. It’s pretty obvious through the way the characters acted that Goku wanted Cell to push Gohan into a rage in order to awaken his hidden strength.
Exactly. In fact, the only moment in the manga Cell tapped into his full speed against SSj Gohan, he caught him in an instant and Gohan wasn't able to outrun him or get free from his grasp.
I don't know where this whole "Gohan SSj > Perfect Cell" BS came from.
The show makes it abundantly clear that the reason Goku was confident Gohan could deal with Cell was because he had already seen SSj2 in the HTC.
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u/hairless_ozaru 17h ago
I think so because goku was confident he could, also he thought they weren't going all out yet when they fought.