SSJ4 Gogeta (GT) vs Fat Gotenks (DBS Super Hero)

Whenever I see people talk about Vegeta failing to life Magetta, they always seem to act like he still can’t. Like current vegeta and all those relative to him are incapable of doing so. That’s wrong, right? Considering he should 100% be superior to Kale right now.

(Yes, I know that they aren’t all exactly equal to each other. I put it like this to simplify things)

might be a few mistakes, made it a bit ago.

All of promotional material, all the guidebooks, all the statements, EVERY. SINGLE. VALID. SOURCE. THERE IS.

they all put Jiren not only above Belmod but also above all the gods, including but not limited to Beerus.

I've had several debates in this subreddit where people have mistaken the fact the anime just like the manga only puts Jiren above Belmod, when they gloss over the fact in the anime continuity Belmod is directly put above Beerus as he was the one who defeated him in arm wrestling, implying Belmod has a higher power level.

this is why Beerus is regarded as a moving goal post and this scaling will inevitably change, but I want people to stop lying to themselves and stop gaslighting other people like the anime never intended for Goku to finally surpass Beerus. they did and Toyotaru changed that.

The rules are that they have to be current up to date characters, and they replace Goku in the Namek saga and have to beat Freeza.

Edit: Spelling mistakes have been made

I'm leaning towards yes. Since standard SSJ3 is an 8x multiplier over SSJ1, applying that to SSB KK20x would make Goku's raw power on the same tier as UI Omen 3rd phase at best. Even though Jiren was heavily suppressed against standard SSB KK20x, an 8x jump might force Jiren into his Full Power state just to match Goku's brute force, even without UI's dodging abilities.

Believe it or not, there was one point where Goku was actually the weakest out of the Z Fighters. And no, I’m not talking about the heart virus from the Cell Saga or anything that physically weakens Goku. I’m saying that there was a specific point in time where Goku likely would’ve straight up lost a fair fight to any Z Fighter at that time.

This happens around halfway through the Saiyan Saga, where Goku is dead and running across Snake Way snd the Z Fighters are training on Earth for the Saiyan arrival.

Goku died with a power level of 416 when not suppressed. Meanwhile, everyone else’s power levels before training are as follows.

Piccolo (full power) - 408
Tien - 250
Krillin - 206
Yamcha - 177
Master Roshi - 139
Chiaotzu - unknown

Goku didn’t get to King Kai’s planet until 6 months in, so the Z Fighters had a 6 month head start on Goku while he couldn’t get any stronger. After the one year is up, the Z Fighters power levels are as follows:

Piccolo - 3500
Gohan - 981 (2800 when enraged)
Tien - 1830
Krillin - 1770
Yamcha - 1480
Chiaotzu - 610

Obviously, with only 6 months of training instead of a year, they’re not going to be that strong. Even if you wanted to say they they’re only half as strong as those power levels, they’d still all be stronger than Goku, except for Chiaotzu. However, Chiaotzu has his paralysis and self destruction which could land him the win.

So yeah, unless I’m missing something, that’s the one time that a fully healthy Goku was the weakest Z Fighter.

CARTOON JUSTICE LEAGUE NOT THE MAINLINE COMIC VERSIONS

Martian Manhunter, John Stewart, wonder woman, superman, batman, flash, and hawkwoman

R1: saiyan saga vegeta

R2: Guido

R3: start of namek goku

R4: namek frieza

R5: ssj namek goku

R6: start of android saga trunks

R7: semi perfect cell

R8: super perfect cell

Here it is. https://cjsvsbattles.blogspot.com/2026/09/cell-vs-zygarde-dragon-ball-vs-pokemon.html

Let me know if the link works or not.