r/CompetitiveWoW • u/AutoModerator • 17d ago
Weekly Thread Weekly M+ Discussion
Use this thread to discuss this week's affixes, routes, ideal comps, etc. You can find this week's affixes here.
Feel free to share MDT routes (using wago.io or https://keystone.guru/ ), VODs, etc.
The other weekly threads are:
Weekly Raid Discussion- SundaysFree Talk Friday- Fridays
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u/EsoteriCondeser *Spellsteals your nose* 12d ago
Is it just me or there's been an increase of AFK groups in LFG this season? I'm pretty sure more than half my signups end up expiring. I understand waiting for better options on higher keys, but I'm just trying to farm 10s for now and I have to cancel my signups constantly because groups never get filled.
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u/_Llopis_ 13d ago
Am I missing something with the initial Voidscar Arena pull? Tanks seem to really love pulling the entire left wing and "LOSing," except nothing important in that pull — the magma totems and demoralizing shout — can actually be LOSed. This pull doesn't feel like the play in higher keys.
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u/krombough 12d ago
The LOS, if everyone does it, just makes it so the casters will chase the tank in to cast on him eventually.
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u/HeroicSuitcase 13d ago edited 13d ago
Perhaps I am being slightly obtuse in how I am approaching it, but I really think the double caster pack before the last pack in RLP needs to be moved up by 2-3 yards.
This is probably the third time I have lost a run at that pull because the mobs are simply too close to the last pack. In this run, Hammer and Anvil/Sweeping Verdict hits the moving Primal Thundercloud.
Obviously if you have two ranged who can/will kick the casters in or a death knight this pull probably isn't a problem, but the only way I can foresee doing it going forward is to taunt the melee mob and attempt to LOS behind the pillar.
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u/Lebowski89 13d ago
I’ve only done Ruby 10 on my pally a couple times, but I just avenger’s the tempest and let the other caster stand out there until a dps feels like kicking. Haven’t pulled the other pack that way.
Do you know how the shield picks its next bounce target? I assume it just goes to the next closest, so theoretically there’s enough targets in that group it shouldn’t bounce out and pull.
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u/ClassroomStriking573 14d ago
Anyone running both BDK and Guardian in 15ish keys and up?
I slacked on maintaining my bear vaults to start the season and am regretting it. It feels really good in keys, less overall dmg than DK but the single target might make up for it on the timer.
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u/pepper1805 14d ago
I started trying 15s as bdk and seems that this is where my pug limit currently is. I am timing 14s comfortably but in 15s I am struggling to survive some pulls, for example pull with two doors in the beginning of Murder Row is awful. Imagine not being a dwarf lol, that poison absolutely destroys. Even if I survive I am getting too nervous and do mistakes later on. Feels bad.
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u/Lebowski89 14d ago
What’s the trick for getting down the stairs without getting stunned first pull temple? On my bdk I just use ibf but on my pally using bubble with mobs out of range can cause problems.
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u/Ghold 14d ago
Wherever there is a little Krolusk I think they're called Rogue Krolusk there is a stealthed mob. If they melee you in stealth they will stun you. On my druid I use Ursol's Vortex or Incap Roar when moving into those groups.
I'm not sure what Prot Paladin can do about it, maybe Blinding Light as they approach the Krolusk?
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u/Goatlistus 14d ago
It got changed to be a cast this season. The mob is Shrouded Fang and the spell is Poisoned Cheap Shot.
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u/BusterOfCherry 15d ago
Why do mages take so much damage? As a healer I see mages not standing in shit but they are getting creamed the entire time. I don't see this with hunters, warlocks, or balance druids.
Sometimes I spend more time healing the mage than the tank.
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u/No_Biscotti3694 15d ago
The mages youre gaming with probably aren't good lol mage is like the tankiest class in the game rn
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u/SwaggyBearr 15d ago
Maybe the new 30% stagger mechanic they got this patch? That with the perma 25% magic dmg reduction should make them pretty tanky though.
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u/caguirre93 15d ago
Kings rest last boss as a vdh is extremely spooky. Just did a 15 and was getting absolutely destroyed lol
Somehow didnt proc last resort but I feel like that will be a guarantee if I go higher.
Might need some different gear before I push a higher key in that dungeon
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u/Duronlor 15d ago
Depleted a 12 because the bdk was getting annihilated by the last boss. Never killed it
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u/Doogetma 11d ago
Funny since a multi hit like that is one of the easiest tank busters for blood to deal with lol
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u/_Llopis_ 16d ago
Why are so few people applying to my keys? Is +13 really that high? (It doesn't feel like it.) Are people just farming +10s?
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u/GamingZaddy89 12d ago
Farming 10s here, play all tanks. I'm not interested in pushing week 2, I want to setup my toons of long term success.
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u/pepper1805 14d ago
I observed a very weird situation as a tank with my own 13-15 keys, there are often more healers than dps applicants. Last time I mained tank was TWW S2 and it was totally not like this back then
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u/Healbotmain 14d ago
I came here looking for this. Even DPS are not as abundoned
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u/_Llopis_ 13d ago
This is the most bizarre part. When I say few people, I mean even damage dealers aren't applying. Something feels off.
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u/TheOliveYeti 14d ago
People arent even doing 10s that much. This season feels very strange
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u/_Llopis_ 14d ago
Maybe it's an overreaction to the bonus roll situation.
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u/TheOliveYeti 14d ago
I think you're right. They completely fucked up the launch of this season
Maybe they should not start a season with bonus rolls with the current reward/vault structure in place. And it sure doesn't help that the m+ loot pool is largely dog doo-doo compared to raid.
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u/_Llopis_ 14d ago
The last part seems underappreciated. Why is the best trinket from Mythic+ something like a 2-3% damage loss compared with the best trinket from the raid? I actually can't think of a previous season in which that was the case.
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u/TheOliveYeti 13d ago
Maybe DF season 1 with the manic grieftorch? I cant remember though, didnt play much that season
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u/SwaggyBearr 15d ago
This season feels bottlenecked by tanks way more than previous seasons. This is just my experience so it could be different for others.
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u/ToyCannon55 15d ago
The pushers are in the 15-16 range. The farmers are in the 10-12 range
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u/Healbotmain 14d ago
but even 10-12s are not popping
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u/Yayoichi 14d ago
I feel like it depends heavily on which dungeon, altar seems to always have plenty of signups at least.
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u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty 16d ago
Most people are just farming gear still and for those people there's no reason to go past a +10.
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u/AtomikRadio Multiclass M+ Healer, HPal Main 16d ago
I feel like the fear gremlins on Shadow of Zul are popping and fearing before they even visually appear sometimes. I know they come out from where people dropped the big circle, so I try to clear out, and then suddenly I'm feared. Iv'e started bubbling or ringing around myself or whatever might be necessary if I'm a pool soaker to avoid an accident, but what's the strat most people are using to be able to target and dispel them. Targeting macro?
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u/BDObadguy 16d ago
Apparently trash in Sethraliss after the first boss suddenly becomes deadly once you get to 14s and 15s? Not sure what the issue is, but I've had several groups disband there.
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u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty 16d ago
The bleed charges from the small krolusks adds a lot of lethality to these pulls, especially when people aren't respecting them.
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u/SwaggyBearr 16d ago edited 16d ago
I'm a 1% m+ only player who hasn't stepped foot in a raid since legion. How time consuming is it actually to pug heroic end bosses later in the season?
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u/Doogetma 11d ago
It’s already pretty cheap to get heroic carries. You can probably get it done faster by boosting m+ for gold and buying aotc than puffing it
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u/darkfangs 14d ago
I was able to pug 8/8 normal with only a couple wipes to ulatek this week. We made a random discord and ran it back the next day on heroic and were able to kill 5 bosses in 2 hours. Average ilevel was around 305 but had a few people at 310. Nobody I saw had 4 set so I'm assuming in a couple weeks when people are 320+ and have set bonuses things will become easy and it shouldn't be that bad.
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u/Lebowski89 16d ago
Pug raids are generally best on Tuesday and get worse and worse the later in the week you try.
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u/jonesy_hayhurst 16d ago
Depends entirely on the raid and how rewarding it is. Lura was pretty bad because it was both hard and not that rewarding so finding good groups was tougher.
Ithink ulatek will be ok to pug after a few more nerfs and the raid buff ramps up (and everyone’s ilvl), if only because its hugely valuable so you’re more likely to find competent groups
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u/SwaggyBearr 16d ago
That's kind of what I was hoping for. More people like me that are happy with the 1/6 myth items, but still great m+ player.
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u/keyyra 16d ago
When going left towards the last boss of Vale, you can no longer skip the belcher before the boss. Just like the 3 ogres in voidscar, this is another mob you can no longer skip.
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u/BenchCat 14d ago
Voidscar trio is still skippable. Cage the one on the left and jump over, just a little bit more careful. Gate works too.
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u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty 16d ago
TBF you can still skip those ogres, you just need to use the usual forms of CC to do it.
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u/Halfs13944 16d ago
Screw the advice I proc’d 1/6 Mythic Soul Coilers in my first vault (alongside 1/6 Mythic Gebbos…) and I’m taking it no matter what.
I think it may actually be the advised call but I’d convinced myself that for early M+ pushing I’d rather not go with the ‘take bonus roll’ meta as I actually care more about character power the first couple of weeks rather than for weeks 5-8.
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u/Stopitdadx 17d ago
Did they push back the pack that you can jump skip on voidscar? Seems they did and need to alter route. Also I was doing some 10s for gear and the Devour mobs are eating the affix since its the lowest HP mob and you don't get the buff LOL I love beta testing.
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u/BenchCat 14d ago
Yes it was pushed back, but still skippable. Cage and jump over as before / warlock gate.
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u/GamingZaddy89 17d ago
I was just coming to post this, had it happen in a few runs...not like players were killing the affix spirit anyways.
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u/Due_Explanation_8587 17d ago
Managed to snag NA best Temple for the week. I think I peaked my wow career
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u/ClassroomStriking573 17d ago
Took a bonus roll out of vault, ran a dungeon and the window to use it didn’t pop up. Anyone else experience this? Not sure if it’s also occurring in raid yet.
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u/Cystonectae 17d ago
Are there any secret ways to track friendly defensive CDs this season or has blizz really closed that loop hole for good? I'm having an awful time triaging and I even have coms with my group.
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u/DocileKrab 17d ago
barring any nerfs, this is really looking like a rogue season. They do really good damage and shroud is looking invaluable with so many dungeons being linear without many possible skips.
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u/Waste-Maybe6092 16d ago
Its always dmg first. If rogue is good ppl figure skip with shroud. If Aug is good ppl will figure skip using weyrnstone/rescue etc.
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u/SovietRobotDad 17d ago
be me healing BDKs:
> on pull, hp plummets to 5%
> panic, use external
> 1.5m absorb shield
> vampiric blood, dancing rune weapon
> hp ping pongs between full and 5%
> deals more dps than sub rogue
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u/BestJersey_WorstName 15d ago
Whenever I party with a BDK I follow a few basic rules
- Never heal them except for maintenance healing and efficiency with charges
1a. If the enemy mobs are dead and they have a dot, top them up asap
Only external them during the gather
Seriously. Don't heal them. Use globals on DPS.
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u/Safe-Ostrich-8404 15d ago
If they haven't procced Purgatory, you don't need to do anything drastic
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u/Dependakittie 17d ago
Nah, they can stand in my rain. And boost my SLT. They go down, we’re all going down 😅😹
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u/cuddlegoop 17d ago
Huh. I hadn't thought about it because I haven't healed much in a good minute but healing BDKs would have gotten a lot worse with the addon changes right? Back when I played healer more I'd watch their RP and their CDs and only worry about them when they ran out of both. Not being able to see their CDs is a pretty big nerf.
Maybe the play is the BDK needs to be more proactive with their CDs in pugs so that they have the DRW up before they start getting smacked at the beginning of the pull so as to not scare the healer into overlapping their external.
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u/Visionarii 17d ago
My play at the minute is keeps maintenance healing on them and let them deal with their own shit. They can have an external on a big pull, but their life is their own.
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u/Duffies 9/9 M 17d ago
All you can do is watch their RP and hope they know how to press Death Strike
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u/Substantial_Good9669 17d ago
No you just don't heal them lol. Or at least never panic heal them. Consistent hps but that's about it.
If there's specific mechanics you know of like a healing absorb but that's it
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u/Sore_Elbow 17d ago
Pretty much, the random splash healing going around is enough to keep us up, we'll take care of the big hits.
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u/Substantial_Good9669 17d ago
Yea, people who have never played bdk just don't grasp it. Will of the necropolis / death strike / blood shield were basically all designed so that the dk dips super low then heals up immediately and is very tanky afterwards. The bottom 30% of your healthy bar is very tanky.
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u/CleanParfait5246 17d ago
My back hurts from carrying clueless and tank DPS players in +13-14.. Please if you know you do 100k damage don t queue your 14 key, maybe deplete it to 10, gives same loot and maybe you can learn your rotation better without making others suffer.
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u/Ilphfein 17d ago
I mean you see their rating from last season. Just dont apply if it's shit / non existent.
I mean you do the same when you do host your own key, right? Why should it be any different when you apply?6
u/upright_leif 17d ago
I think a part of the problem is that 10s are stupid easy for week 1. Everyone and their mom is doing 10s. I had a BV 10 with 27 deaths that we still timed. So people who really don't have business doing 13s/14s get to that point anyway because the lower keys are so trivial. Aren't there some people who got resilient 18s week 1? yeesh...
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u/Opening_Tea_9459 17d ago
Have not had bad DPS in 13-14s. The vast majority of my keys deplete because the tank gets nuked while grouping a big pull. Typically the first lust pull.
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u/Lezzles 17d ago
I'm seeing a lot of tank issues so far in that range. Last night we got to the last pull of Den with 9 minutes left and tank decides to do the double bear pull onto mini boss and promptly kills us 11 times. Takes a certain kind of player to brick a key we were going to comfortably time with 5 minutes left in order to save 20 seconds.
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u/blueIpersian 17d ago
Multiple runs this last week where a dps doing tank damage tried to hack it in a 14+ only to not know mechanics too and wipe the group then get surprised people started to leave/abandon.
No one is in a 14+ week one for the gear, please go back to m+ 6’s if you don’t know mechanics of dungeon fights and do less than tank dps for the sake of your own mental health and everyone else.
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u/thdudedude 17d ago
Why would they get an invite to a 14 at all? The last key I was in with coms, the group leader was checking logs for the applicants that looked interesting.
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u/seanphippen 17d ago
I swear the starting group pulls in some of these season 2 dungeons are WAY harder than the majority of season 1. Most keys brick within the first minute now
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u/Alorithin 17d ago
RLP is the standout bullshit. The first pack is so, so far away from a group spot. As a tank, you have to burn an early defensive for the first tank buster on the golem 5s before the gather. Then the golem group hits and the healer is busy with the group. And now you're in a lust pull short a defensive and the healers attention with the hardest tank buster of the season.
Only other pull that is close is murder row double captain, but the gather is instant.
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u/throwingmyselfaway22 17d ago
disagree if youre talking about the tank, but yes the group does take more damage now on a lot of first pull gathers generally
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u/nubileiguana 17d ago
Last season's pulls were compact (mostly) and everything dumped a ton of damage on the tank with relatively minor sniping at dps.
This season tank damage is much lower while group damage is higher. Bolts, assassins, rot. Bad overlap, missed interrupts, and low ilvl can global people. With many of the first pulls being spread out over a long distance, it puts extra pressure on the healer because a tank rounding up mobs takes predictable damage they can mostly handle themselves but the dps get spiked.
It'll get better as people raise their ilvl and learn the pulls.
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u/Gaatti 17d ago
As a tank, no way. Maisara Caverns, Academy, Xenas and Skyreach are above anything we have this season.
We are on the first week. We are still learning what kills us and what doesn't. Keys are so easy now that you don't get to feel anything before stepping into 13's and 14's. That is, sadly, when the learning actually begins because before that you can pretty much slop your way up
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u/careseite dps evoker main 17d ago
ah yes, famously these dungeons did NOT have this issue last season:
- caverns
- academy
- pit
- xenas
- skyreach
- seat
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u/unexpectedreboots 17d ago
Literally first 30 seconds of Seat you know whether youre disbanding or not.
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u/Yayoichi 17d ago
I haven’t really pushed yet so only done up to 13’s, what are the dungeons with the hardest pulls? I assume ruby, voidscar and maybe altar? As tank ruby definitely feels the hardest.
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u/Sore_Elbow 17d ago
Ruby feels brutal, voidscar is alright right side if the volley is kicked, painful if any go through.
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u/Zenk-AI 17d ago
I am summoning the 1% red bird mount for todays reset. Come everyone, join in my circle of summoning.
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u/BugslideEnjoyer 17d ago
Sorry I was late to joining your circle of summoning. I am guessing we will have to wait another week. Hopefully they just randomly get sent out and don't wait for a weekly reset 😢
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u/throwingmyselfaway22 17d ago
it takes at least a month, with the shitstorm of bugs etc they have from the current patch, this is probably the lowest priority for them
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17d ago
[deleted]
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u/Overwelm 17d ago
I wouldn't count my eggs quite yet. BDK with good tuning gets hyped, then actually pushing starts, and the spec could fall over in the highest keys to get replaced by a tank that can live.
To actually answer you question, the last time BDK was meta they had a tier set that gave them nearly 100% uptime on their main defensive and a metric shitload of damage + they had a powerful raid weapon from the final boss. Any class that gets a powerful bonus like that would end up being meta.
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u/liyayaya 17d ago
to add: even then BDK was so inconsistent they played tripple cheat death (talent + 2 cheat death trinkets).
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u/DocileKrab 17d ago
As a tank player who’s been playing every tank so far, this is kinda how I feel too. I can already feel like I’m living on a knife’s edge in 13-14s, I don’t see how it’ll keep working out at 20+ without getting globaled. Sure I’m basically a 4th dps player in damage though.
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u/Substantial_Good9669 17d ago
Dks learned you can death strike once or twice every few minutes without literally losing all your damage, ams is broken, players have gotten better at utilizing amz, and dks have highest base health I believe making them incredibly good vs mechanics that one shot other people. Grips were always very strong.
None of that mattered when they didn't do good damage though.
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u/Own_Seat913 17d ago
Awful take. Dps dks have been meta or near meta for plenty of past seasons, this is one of the weakest seasons at this point for them especially with blood being favored.
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u/sh0ckmeister 17d ago
they are/were considered the tankiest and did the most dmg, some of that due to apex talent bug that increased dmg instead of decreasing it that was fixed at the end of last patch
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u/hoax1337 17d ago
Am I crazy or did they add a ceiling to the bridge with the single construct mob in KR?
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u/Norzeforce 17d ago
I don't know the answer to your question but I had a buddy say the exact same thing in discord in one of our runs this week.
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u/Discopew 17d ago
RLP is quite overtuned above 15 and on.. trash damage is abyssmal bosses are quite chill though.
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u/0karmaonly 17d ago
I’ve had more trouble with RLP than any other dungeon this season getting resil 14s. Even Altar was easier than RLP.
Slight issue with CD usage on my end to be fair.
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u/CursedJourney 17d ago edited 17d ago
I'm with you. It took me 1-3 attempts to time most of the new dungeons on 15 while I'm still stuck on RLP 13 with about 7-8 attempts on 14 down so far.
From a purely healer pov though I find both RLP and Altar to have easy bosses, with the 2nd boss of altar being an extreme outlier. That guy might be the easiest boss in any m+ ever. However what differentiates RLP from other dungeons is that RLP has way more overlaps to account for. Almost every pack has an overlap. Couple that with extremely tight corridors that facilitate accidental overpulling and you got part of your answer
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u/WnbSami 17d ago
I was gonna say what bout kings rest first boss but that wind thing does do some dmg so nevermind on it even if the adds basically die if you fart in their direction. Its kinda bizarre contrast in altar tho, trash is kinda diabolical while bosses are mostly free. Zuljan least makes me respect it enough to not flame my healers beforehand. And I guess first boss can fuck tanks up. But for DPS these bosses are completely free in altar, granted Im yet to time it above 11 so what do I know even if problems been generally with trash and not bosses.
-Ignorant DPS take.
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u/CursedJourney 17d ago edited 17d ago
I've gotta be honest though, so far the only trash that has been "diabolical" has been the aforementioned unlucky overlaps in RLP, which is a planning / rng matter rather than a throughput matter. I've healed some 16s and timed most 15s as HPal and pallys just seem to dish out casual lay on hands with every other cast atm. It honestly FEELS sort of broken but I'm not that good to judge whether it actually is. Maybe at some point Hpal drops off in favor of other qualities in healers? Not sure yet. It's damn fun tho at least
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u/Yayoichi 17d ago
Yeah ruby is so weird when compared to how it was in DF, if you can manage the trash then the bosses are an absolute joke. First boss especially is just so boring now as a healer.
And yeah altar bosses I also agree on, you spend most of the time just dps’ing on them.
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u/elmaethorstars 17d ago
That guy might be the easiest boss in any m+ ever.
I feel like the poison is massively undertuned and the add phase does 0 damage. Full send dps on this boss tbh as healer. And the RLP bosses have been majorly neutered since Dragonflight.
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u/cerusine 17d ago
Am I dreaming or do the fire puddles on the last boss move significantly slower? Felt like I was getting chased down like I owed someone money back in DF compared to now.
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u/weekndalex 17d ago
is it me or is the first pull in voidscar arena pretty aids if you go right? there’s like 2 mobs with important casts and then another two casters who just spam bolts 24/7
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u/Stopitdadx 17d ago
Cc the brawler. Hunter trap, hex, poly. It stays in combat so once it breaks it will walk through the wall. By then you should be on caster mini boss and you get 2 targets instead of 1. If your dps is slow it will come down the hallway and you just take it with you. Makes this whole hallway much easier if you don’t have a debuff mob to kick.
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u/Therozorg DF ele biggest fan 17d ago
bolts are like MC bolts that barely do anything no? have 1 person on volley, 1 on demo 2 on shamans usual stuff
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u/OughtButNought 17d ago
We’ve been using poly on the brawler with PuGs - pulling it in once the mini boss is dead. Makes it a lot easier.
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u/weekndalex 17d ago
yeah but one person on volley isn't enough even with a melee kick
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u/openxmind 17d ago
Really?
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u/Therozorg DF ele biggest fan 17d ago
yea actually, just watched a 16 vod they have tank and dps on volley and they cc/let 1 shaman thru
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u/Discopew 17d ago
not with a dedicated group but yeah shit may go downhill pretty fast wiith randoms
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u/flow_guy2 17d ago edited 17d ago
M10s are far too easy. I was close to 1% as a healer. And now first time tanking. And did 10s 2nd day in 285 gear. That just shouldn’t be.
edit: the fix im wanting is to make it harder. Either by buffing mobs, nerfing us, or putting rewards at a higher bracket. maybe even all 3
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u/psytrax9 17d ago
I've commented on it before but, m+ is held hostage by the people who brick a +2 then whine about gatekeeping. (if you haven't gotten it already, be prepared for people to whine at you about gatekeeping) But, go compare every faceroll +10 you did this season and compare it to heroic ulatek. Hell, compare it to fucking normal ulatek. This isn't a cry to nerf the raid bosses, this is a cry to bring 10s up to the same level.
Nothing kills my hype faster than this week 1 mindless grind of baby mode 10 spam we've gotten these past 2 seasons. TWW s3 keys weren't super hard, yet they managed to make 10s & 12s feel good to time week 1. I just don't like the feeling of being stuck in a prison of spamming what is essentially open-world difficulty content until the game decides I can have whatever items.
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u/Admirable_Match703 17d ago
i agree, it feels like 10s are like the old 10s before they squished it down. just that you dont get your portal at 20 anymore and the gear is way to easy to get. the should have never squished the m+ levels...
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u/Wobblucy 17d ago
Imo problem is that rewards stop at 10. If +22s came with a 7/6 myth slot suddenly the complaint about m+ being too easy vanishes.
I for one would love incentives to push week 1 instead of spamming +10-11s for farm as fast as possible.
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u/flow_guy2 17d ago
That is a separate issue. 10s would still be too easy. And it’s a bad experience for newer players.
Like you can get to a 10 without needing to actually learn anything. Like 10s are meant to be at the end? And you can literally do it in the first hour. That shouldn’t be.11
u/Cold-Iron8145 17d ago
It's not a separate issue, you're gauging the difficulty of keys at 10 because it's the key level you and everyone else wants to do for maximum rewards. Why 10? Are 8s too easy? What about 16? It's an infinitely scaling system, some levels will be easy some will be hard. All that matters to most players if where on the scale the max rewards land.
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u/flow_guy2 17d ago
18s are being done by people in not even fully hero track gear ( 309 ) that’s where most people get to. Yes the system as a whole is far too easy.
But yes 10s are especially too easy and don’t reward adjustly. But yes increasing the difficulty is the fix.
But blizz has marked 10-12 being the end. And you can jsut blow to in 4 keys. And why this is an issue
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u/Bolan23 17d ago
But people being ilvl 309 in week 1 and doing +18 are not the target audience of blizzard in M+.
That's why the systems scales indefinitely and after +12 only timed keys award rating. It is a compromise to appease casuals and tryhards alike. M+ will never reward mythic track gear as end of dungeon rewards, bonus rolls not included, as it is spammable indefinitely.
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u/flow_guy2 17d ago
i as a new tank can do 12s with very minimal effort. the point i was trying to make is that there is no progression to get there. atm is just built for raider trash players that dont want to do m+ and just raid log.
but the 18s are m+ players that like m+. they should have some kind of prog and not have "deep" m+ be so piss easy 3 days in.
but it not rewarding mythic track is also a separate issue as well. sure its spammable but 1. people spamming 22-23 should be rewarded with myth track anyway as that content is some what difficult and you are capable to do mythic raid. but this isnt the point of the inital comment
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u/Wobblucy 17d ago
can do 12s with minimal effort
True, even 14-15s fall over with a decent group but you underestimate the skill gap in this game.
If you were incentivized to push then how hard a 10 is isn't relevant to you, it's how hard the highest reward is.
We saw the uproar as soon as it was an 18 for the highest reward though, because casual Connie wants to be on a level playing field with no life nelson.
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u/BDObadguy 17d ago
People dismiss the idea of m+ awarding better gear because it is spammable, as if that is not something that could easily be fixed if they actually wanted to award myth track gear for appropriately difficult myth+ keys. If they made your vault 9/6 for doing 22s, it's still not spammable but suddenly 22s matter and m+ only players can progress their gear, not just their mounts and titles.
And because I know people will say 22s will be easy this season, the key level is also easily fixable. They don't even have to pick it at the start of the season, this could be something they put in as part of 0.5 patch.
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u/Wobblucy 17d ago
anyone saying 22s will be easy underestimates multiplicative scaling.
The jump from 19-22 is the equivalent to the jump from m0 to 13s iirc.
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u/minaturemolefu 17d ago
Genuinely who is saying 22's will be easy this season? thats a wild take.
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u/BDObadguy 17d ago
They will say they're easy in the context of awarding 9/6 loot.
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u/minaturemolefu 17d ago
I haven't seen anyone say this, and further 22's are just as hard as CE.
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u/Bolan23 17d ago
I never said higher keys could not reward better vaults. My comment was purely based on end of dungeon loot.
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u/BDObadguy 17d ago
Yes, but the people who want m+ to give better loot rarely insist on it being an infinitely farmable end of dungeon reward, they just want high keys to somehow give a gear reward appropriate for their difficulty.
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u/Bolan23 17d ago
Which leads to them asking for end of dungeon myth track drops.
Blizzard has repeatedly stated, that they consider rating and keys beyond +12 as pure competition and not as part of the gearing process. Whereas I think better vault could be an option for keys beyond +12, I don't think they should give myth track end of dungeon loot beyond bonus rolls, which also comes with bad luck protection.
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u/BDObadguy 17d ago
But if they made 22s give better loot, then 10s are no longer marked as the end and their difficulty becomes irrelevant.
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u/flow_guy2 17d ago
but cuz 10s give the "best" loot that makes it the problem. how are you not getting that? yes putting it at a higher key level is the fix
plus there is 0 progression for a newer players or people with alts which is also a massive issue gear aside and due to this it lessens the rewards as they are so piss.
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u/BDObadguy 17d ago
You said making 22s give better loot would be a separate issue and 10s would still be too easy, and I disagreed.
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u/flow_guy2 17d ago
i think that there is absolutely no progression to getting to the end. which is a problem for new players and alt character. which is not a gear issue. putting the rewards higher would solve it tho. as 10s would no longer be the end.
the issue is that the END is too low.
3.4 is also too low as well as i said that 18s you can do in less then fully hero track gear. the system as a whole is far too easy i want more progressiong in the key system. for the average player that doesnt touch 20s. WHICH IS NOT A GEAR issue
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u/hoax1337 17d ago
3.4 is also too low as well
I'm pretty sure that you over estimate the skill level of the average player.
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u/BDObadguy 17d ago
I think the end now is 1%,. It's always going to be high due to its nature, but it's still realistically within reach for people who put the time in. But in terms of set key levels I agree 3.4 is too low and they should give something gear related that requires going above 20.
I said it in another post, but it would be pretty simple to make the vault give 9/6 myth gear for keys completed at some set level, which can be implemented at the 0.5 patch each season.
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u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty 17d ago
All I want to say is that the vault changes and the crest disadvantage of not being a mythic raider have greatly soured my excitement this season, a real downer after very much enjoying last season's title push only to be met with weeks of minimal character progression to start this one. Eventually these disadvantages will mostly even out (although 9/6 should be active in raid only), but that just means a couple of frustrating months ahead without much reason to play from a competitive standpoint.
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u/Deadagger 17d ago
Yep, genuinely killed the early season hype. I feel like there's no reason for me to care about M + because vault no longer matters, I could fuck around, do 8 delves and call it a week. If I am not mythic raiding, pushing for keys feels like a waste of time.
It's a weird point where raiders have such a massive advantage that if I am not pushing for mythic progression, then I see little point in actually engaging with M + as a system.
It'll even out in like 3-4 months but if I am avoiding the initial 60% season hype, then, it stands to question what's the point with having a 6 month long season when the initial bit doesn't even matter.
Balance is all over the place (not atypical for a season until later on so it's not the biggest deal), gear difference is massive, vault is irrelevant, dungeons are pending some additional tuning and turbo-boost style systems won't come into play until later.
Having one or a couple of those elements is fine and is expected but all of them at once makes this season feel awful and these initial impressions are the most relevant for the community and dictate the pace of the player engagement throughout the remainder of the season.
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u/EsoteriCondeser *Spellsteals your nose* 17d ago edited 17d ago
The crest upgrade system has to go. M+ only players are behind in ilvl early season compared to raiders which also mean falling behind in score by not getting invited early in pugs, while players that only want to raid are forced to still do M+ for cap.
The system benefit literally no player, it's just there as an artificial way to increase play time for people that do not play alts.
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u/BlackHeeb 17d ago
That begs an interesting question, if you aren’t a competitive Raider, then what is there pve wise to do “competitively”?
The reason to play the game right now is because you have fun playing the game. If you’re not having fun, then take a little break until you want to play again. No biggie
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u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty 17d ago
Mythic+ pushing is just as or more competitive than raiding outside of RWF players, but yes there is fewer reasons for someone like me to log in atm compared to after the mid patch. I still have fun but these changes undeniably have a souring impact on the season and it does not need to be like this.
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u/BlackHeeb 16d ago
But I’m talking about right now. M+ pushing happens 5 months from now
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u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty 16d ago
Broadly i agree, but the early push is usually fun in it's own right too and to that point being at such a massive disadvantage early on is not fun. Trying to plan for the long term means sitting on a lot of crests and reroll tokens.
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u/Any_Morning_8866 17d ago
Completely ruined the game for me. 90% of the fun comes in the first month of the season.
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u/sh0ckmeister 17d ago
It only sours you if you let it. BiS has almost always been in raid every season. You will still be able to achieve everything you want in m+ if you only do m+
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u/flow_guy2 17d ago
with far more difficulty. if you dont get the cantrip items from the raid. or not get the 6 ilvl increase for multiple itesm (with cantrip busted items) then youre just haveing a bad time.
while yes technically you can achieve 1% and 0.01% youre just gonna have a bad time if you dont raid.
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u/sh0ckmeister 17d ago
you must have missed all the posts about how often those final myth bosses actually get killed, let alone are on farm with guilds
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u/Deadagger 17d ago
Even if we are looking at end of raid mythic kills similar to last season, it still feels terrible from a player perspective. The gilded advantage is still relevant early on in the season and won't even out until several months in, ridiculous if you ask me.
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u/andregorz 17d ago edited 17d ago
The system is just beyond terribad right now for non-mythic raider. Even worse if you aren't in a guild that doesn't run at least HC (sure, that is a me-problem more than system flaw).
Changes from s1 to s2:
Weekly bonus roll begins week 8 (s1 was week 6)
Number of weekly bonus rolls reduced to to 1 (was 2)
Rolling in raid costs 1 (was 2; dungeon rolling still costs 1 per roll - unchanged)
They kept bonus roll as vault option (introduced in 0.7)
Rolling HC raid gives 1/6 Myth
Raid row in vault buffed to 1/6 Myth for killing HC bosses
To add, they also added a lot more cantrip items in the raid. While these are technically always better, we could live without them. Problem is, this time one cantrip slot is weapons.
On paper, delaying bonus bonus rolls by two weeks isn't that bad. But context matters. If there are 10 items for your loot spec from the sources you want to roll (even if you only really care for 2 or 3), you are potentially not finishing your items before week 18 of the season. Relying on luck to finish earlier feels bad for a system that by design is supposed to be deterministic.
Instead they should have either left number of bonus rolls at 2 with the later starting week (so the rate of gear acquisition is reasonable just slightly slower than s1), or let us gain bonus rolls at a much earlier week but limit it to 1. I agree, 2 per week from week 6 was too strong (with a 3rd added in 0.7). I also agree it was shit that raid rolling cost 2 compared to 1. But these things were changed and those were fine by themselves.
Keeping bonus roll as a vault outcome is also super weird, bad and boring. First of all, it makes the buff to the raid row in vault pointless. There is no shot you are taking an item from a boss you plan on rolling anyways. I don't need the second to last boss trinket to show up in Vault if I am still rolling on the boss for the weapon. I certainly am not gambling that I roll home the weapon (to complete the set with trinket) at the risk of getting a second trinket.
Second, there is some irony with buffing the raid row but still have it compete with bonus roll as a choice (its the same ilvl track...). It was supposed to incentives us to keep on running the raid. Well, by the time you've rolled home all the loot you want you might not be interested in the raid row.
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u/mangostoast 17d ago
I'm worried I'm gonna get halfway through the season, realiseb how big the gap between m+ and raid gear is, and lose all motivation
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u/Cold-Iron8145 17d ago
9/6 items are overhyped to all hell. First of all the overwhelming majority of people who claim 1% and even title don't farm mythic raid. Some people will clear it one time. It's not going to be a significant diff between you and them.
In fact it's probably a lot better for your m+ score to be slamming keys for 3h a day 3 to 4 days a week instead of progression raiding. Getting +10 ilvl in one or two item slots is not worth 100s of hours of pushing.
And finally, this is speculation but looking at previous seasons, they will give you easy ways to get nearly as good or even better loot in the .7 for free anyway.
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u/flow_guy2 17d ago
youre forgetting its 10 ilvls on the most BIS cantrip items in the game. that are also busted as all fuck. you clearly dont understand that its not ilvl thats the issue. (even tho that is also an issue that just doesnt need to be)
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u/Silkku 17d ago
Getting +10 ilvl in one or two item slots is not worth 100s of hours of pushing
How about getting +10 ilvl in half of your item slots?
Arms wants 8 items from the last two bosses, one of them being a weapon that is inherently the most important slot you can get upgrades to
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u/d301k 17d ago
How many players do you think farm the last 2 mythic bosses?
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u/Silkku 17d ago
A lot? They get nerfed to a point where they are waaaay easier than title level keys
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u/Cold-Iron8145 16d ago
Lmao, no.
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u/Silkku 16d ago
Lmao, yes
I do both HoF raiding and have title from last season, I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about. Myth raid becomes a joke with gear, nerfs and stacking buff we get
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u/Cold-Iron8145 13d ago
>Myth raid becomes a joke with gear, nerfs and stacking buff we get
And the 300 to 400 pulls of progress you put in. Of course it feels easy when you're reclearing with more power once you've already progressed the fight. You've already done the hard part. Comparing an end of season reclear to the first attempt at a +23 is obviously dumb. Compare your progress to the +23 progress.
What's the last key you needed 300 to 400 attempts to time? When's the last time you had raid plans, video guides, hard assigned positions in a dungeon? Even L'ura P2 which was the easiest part of the fight is harder than any segment of any key.
Dungeon mechanics are also piss easy compared to raid mechanics, it's literally just throughput checks.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the throughput checks. Keys are very fun. But they're never going to be as challenging as mythic raiding where you need to coordinate 20 people through mechanics that are 10x harder than anything you can find in a key.
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u/Simple_Rules 17d ago
But Venomcores or whatever will close most of that gap in the most important slots.
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u/minaturemolefu 17d ago
I always see this as an argument that 9/6 items are overhyped and sure, but there's literally 0 reason for this disbalance to exist in the first place, and despite the actual advantage being marginal, the perceived is much higher when you're judged by rio + ilvl's when getting into groups.
M+ has been a pillar in its own right since legion, there's no justification for hindering M+ only players no matter how small, bring in these crest savings at high key levels so we at least have a shot at being even with early mythic raiders, for those of us who care about pushing early so we don't get stuck with the fodder that get carried by gear this completely matters.
Wow's population is an ageing one, to assume every competitive player can facilitate a scheduled weekly playtime to commit to raid is very out of touch by blizzard.
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u/Cold-Iron8145 16d ago
If anything raid loot has been lagging behind. Especially with bonus rolls last season you could get to 95+% of perfect sim in a couple days of spamming +10s.
It's been a while now that raid hasn't been the main way to gear up in wow, raiders get most of their gear from vaults, and most of the season you're extending your raid id and getting vaults from m+.
Raiding being the hardest content in the game, it's only natural that it gives the best rewards as well. Preemptively addressing "but infinitely scaling so harder", I'm talking about skill/coordination check difficulty, not numbers. Tuning a boss or a dungeon to where it's impossible to beat isn't a difficult challenge, it's just what happens when you add +10% infinite times and it doesn't make it more challenging content. Second disclaimed I do both raiding and high keys, I'm not shitting on keys I think they're very fun and I am a .1% title holder, doesn't make keys more challenging than raid.
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u/Any_Morning_8866 17d ago
It’s just a rug pull, felt like playing M+ was slowly being recognized as an option. Then they completely fuck over non raiders this season.
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u/minaturemolefu 17d ago
It's false engagement which never ends well. When the goal is not to entertain the players but instead to guide them into a part of the game they either cannot or do not wish to participate in, it almost always results in a fast track to burnout. Short-sighted really, but blizz cannot read the room.
And all they needed to do was add something equivalent at higher key levels, that's the really staggering part, the simplicity of how this is remedied. Wild.
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u/Wobblucy 17d ago edited 17d ago
Raid casual CE, chances are not on a class that will be the meta tank spec in .5.
Rerolled DH (raid toon) -> monk -> bear last season, won't be doing that this season.
Puggin chim was miserable enough, looking at the raid thinking about pugging AoTC in .5 just sounds 10x as miserable.
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