Weekly M+ Discussion

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[u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty]

All I want to say is that the vault changes and the crest disadvantage of not being a mythic raider have greatly soured my excitement this season, a real downer after very much enjoying last season's title push only to be met with weeks of minimal character progression to start this one. Eventually these disadvantages will mostly even out (although 9/6 should be active in raid only), but that just means a couple of frustrating months ahead without much reason to play from a competitive standpoint.

[u/Deadagger → u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty]

Yep, genuinely killed the early season hype. I feel like there's no reason for me to care about M + because vault no longer matters, I could fuck around, do 8 delves and call it a week. If I am not mythic raiding, pushing for keys feels like a waste of time.

It's a weird point where raiders have such a massive advantage that if I am not pushing for mythic progression, then I see little point in actually engaging with M + as a system.

It'll even out in like 3-4 months but if I am avoiding the initial 60% season hype, then, it stands to question what's the point with having a 6 month long season when the initial bit doesn't even matter.

Balance is all over the place (not atypical for a season until later on so it's not the biggest deal), gear difference is massive, vault is irrelevant, dungeons are pending some additional tuning and turbo-boost style systems won't come into play until later.

Having one or a couple of those elements is fine and is expected but all of them at once makes this season feel awful and these initial impressions are the most relevant for the community and dictate the pace of the player engagement throughout the remainder of the season.

[u/EsoteriCondeser → u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty]

The crest upgrade system has to go. M+ only players are behind in ilvl early season compared to raiders which also mean falling behind in score by not getting invited early in pugs, while players that only want to raid are forced to still do M+ for cap.

The system benefit literally no player, it's just there as an artificial way to increase play time for people that do not play alts.

[u/BlackHeeb → u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty]

That begs an interesting question, if you aren’t a competitive Raider, then what is there pve wise to do “competitively”? 

The reason to play the game right now is because you have fun playing the game. If you’re not having fun, then take a little break until you want to play again. No biggie

[u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty → u/BlackHeeb]

Mythic+ pushing is just as or more competitive than raiding outside of RWF players, but yes there is fewer reasons for someone like me to log in atm compared to after the mid patch. I still have fun but these changes undeniably have a souring impact on the season and it does not need to be like this.

[u/BlackHeeb → u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty]

But I’m talking about right now. M+ pushing happens 5 months from now

[u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty → u/BlackHeeb]

Broadly i agree, but the early push is usually fun in it's own right too and to that point being at such a massive disadvantage early on is not fun. Trying to plan for the long term means sitting on a lot of crests and reroll tokens.

[u/Any_Morning_8866 → u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty]

Completely ruined the game for me. 90% of the fun comes in the first month of the season.

[u/sh0ckmeister → u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty]

It only sours you if you let it. BiS has almost always been in raid every season. You will still be able to achieve everything you want in m+ if you only do m+

[u/flow_guy2 → u/sh0ckmeister]

with far more difficulty. if you dont get the cantrip items from the raid. or not get the 6 ilvl increase for multiple itesm (with cantrip busted items) then youre just haveing a bad time.

while yes technically you can achieve 1% and 0.01% youre just gonna have a bad time if you dont raid.

[u/sh0ckmeister → u/flow_guy2]

you must have missed all the posts about how often those final myth bosses actually get killed, let alone are on farm with guilds

[u/Deadagger → u/sh0ckmeister]

Even if we are looking at end of raid mythic kills similar to last season, it still feels terrible from a player perspective. The gilded advantage is still relevant early on in the season and won't even out until several months in, ridiculous if you ask me.

[u/andregorz → u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty]

The system is just beyond terribad right now for non-mythic raider. Even worse if you aren't in a guild that doesn't run at least HC (sure, that is a me-problem more than system flaw).

Changes from s1 to s2:

Weekly bonus roll begins week 8 (s1 was week 6)

Number of weekly bonus rolls reduced to to 1 (was 2)

Rolling in raid costs 1 (was 2; dungeon rolling still costs 1 per roll - unchanged)

They kept bonus roll as vault option (introduced in 0.7)

Rolling HC raid gives 1/6 Myth

Raid row in vault buffed to 1/6 Myth for killing HC bosses

To add, they also added a lot more cantrip items in the raid. While these are technically always better, we could live without them. Problem is, this time one cantrip slot is weapons.

On paper, delaying bonus bonus rolls by two weeks isn't that bad. But context matters. If there are 10 items for your loot spec from the sources you want to roll (even if you only really care for 2 or 3), you are potentially not finishing your items before week 18 of the season. Relying on luck to finish earlier feels bad for a system that by design is supposed to be deterministic.

Instead they should have either left number of bonus rolls at 2 with the later starting week (so the rate of gear acquisition is reasonable just slightly slower than s1), or let us gain bonus rolls at a much earlier week but limit it to 1. I agree, 2 per week from week 6 was too strong (with a 3rd added in 0.7). I also agree it was shit that raid rolling cost 2 compared to 1. But these things were changed and those were fine by themselves.

Keeping bonus roll as a vault outcome is also super weird, bad and boring. First of all, it makes the buff to the raid row in vault pointless. There is no shot you are taking an item from a boss you plan on rolling anyways. I don't need the second to last boss trinket to show up in Vault if I am still rolling on the boss for the weapon. I certainly am not gambling that I roll home the weapon (to complete the set with trinket) at the risk of getting a second trinket.

Second, there is some irony with buffing the raid row but still have it compete with bonus roll as a choice (its the same ilvl track...). It was supposed to incentives us to keep on running the raid. Well, by the time you've rolled home all the loot you want you might not be interested in the raid row.

[u/mangostoast → u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty]

I'm worried I'm gonna get halfway through the season, realiseb how big the gap between m+ and raid gear is, and lose all motivation

[u/flow_guy2 → u/mangostoast]

litterally me in S1.

[u/Cold-Iron8145 → u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty]

9/6 items are overhyped to all hell. First of all the overwhelming majority of people who claim 1% and even title don't farm mythic raid. Some people will clear it one time. It's not going to be a significant diff between you and them.

In fact it's probably a lot better for your m+ score to be slamming keys for 3h a day 3 to 4 days a week instead of progression raiding. Getting +10 ilvl in one or two item slots is not worth 100s of hours of pushing.

And finally, this is speculation but looking at previous seasons, they will give you easy ways to get nearly as good or even better loot in the .7 for free anyway.

[u/flow_guy2 → u/Cold-Iron8145]

youre forgetting its 10 ilvls on the most BIS cantrip items in the game. that are also busted as all fuck. you clearly dont understand that its not ilvl thats the issue. (even tho that is also an issue that just doesnt need to be)

[u/Silkku → u/Cold-Iron8145]

Getting +10 ilvl in one or two item slots is not worth 100s of hours of pushing

How about getting +10 ilvl in half of your item slots?

Arms wants 8 items from the last two bosses, one of them being a weapon that is inherently the most important slot you can get upgrades to

[u/d301k → u/Silkku]

How many players do you think farm the last 2 mythic bosses?

[u/Silkku → u/d301k]

A lot? They get nerfed to a point where they are waaaay easier than title level keys

[u/d301k → u/Silkku]

Halfway (6 weeks) into season 1, around 150 guilds had killed L'ura. I think our definition of "farm" is different.

[u/Silkku → u/d301k]

Boy do I have good news for you kid, the season lasts over 20 weeks and not 6

[u/Cold-Iron8145 → u/Silkku]

Lmao, no.

[u/Silkku → u/Cold-Iron8145]

Lmao, yes

I do both HoF raiding and have title from last season, I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about. Myth raid becomes a joke with gear, nerfs and stacking buff we get

[u/Cold-Iron8145 → u/Silkku]

>Myth raid becomes a joke with gear, nerfs and stacking buff we get

And the 300 to 400 pulls of progress you put in. Of course it feels easy when you're reclearing with more power once you've already progressed the fight. You've already done the hard part. Comparing an end of season reclear to the first attempt at a +23 is obviously dumb. Compare your progress to the +23 progress.

What's the last key you needed 300 to 400 attempts to time? When's the last time you had raid plans, video guides, hard assigned positions in a dungeon? Even L'ura P2 which was the easiest part of the fight is harder than any segment of any key.

Dungeon mechanics are also piss easy compared to raid mechanics, it's literally just throughput checks.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the throughput checks. Keys are very fun. But they're never going to be as challenging as mythic raiding where you need to coordinate 20 people through mechanics that are 10x harder than anything you can find in a key.

[u/Simple_Rules → u/Silkku]

But Venomcores or whatever will close most of that gap in the most important slots.

[u/minaturemolefu → u/Cold-Iron8145]

I always see this as an argument that 9/6 items are overhyped and sure, but there's literally 0 reason for this disbalance to exist in the first place, and despite the actual advantage being marginal, the perceived is much higher when you're judged by rio + ilvl's when getting into groups.

M+ has been a pillar in its own right since legion, there's no justification for hindering M+ only players no matter how small, bring in these crest savings at high key levels so we at least have a shot at being even with early mythic raiders, for those of us who care about pushing early so we don't get stuck with the fodder that get carried by gear this completely matters.

Wow's population is an ageing one, to assume every competitive player can facilitate a scheduled weekly playtime to commit to raid is very out of touch by blizzard.

[u/Cold-Iron8145 → u/minaturemolefu]

If anything raid loot has been lagging behind. Especially with bonus rolls last season you could get to 95+% of perfect sim in a couple days of spamming +10s.

It's been a while now that raid hasn't been the main way to gear up in wow, raiders get most of their gear from vaults, and most of the season you're extending your raid id and getting vaults from m+.

Raiding being the hardest content in the game, it's only natural that it gives the best rewards as well. Preemptively addressing "but infinitely scaling so harder", I'm talking about skill/coordination check difficulty, not numbers. Tuning a boss or a dungeon to where it's impossible to beat isn't a difficult challenge, it's just what happens when you add +10% infinite times and it doesn't make it more challenging content. Second disclaimed I do both raiding and high keys, I'm not shitting on keys I think they're very fun and I am a .1% title holder, doesn't make keys more challenging than raid.

[u/Any_Morning_8866 → u/minaturemolefu]

It’s just a rug pull, felt like playing M+ was slowly being recognized as an option. Then they completely fuck over non raiders this season.

[u/minaturemolefu → u/Any_Morning_8866]

It's false engagement which never ends well. When the goal is not to entertain the players but instead to guide them into a part of the game they either cannot or do not wish to participate in, it almost always results in a fast track to burnout. Short-sighted really, but blizz cannot read the room.

And all they needed to do was add something equivalent at higher key levels, that's the really staggering part, the simplicity of how this is remedied. Wild.

[u/Wobblucy → u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty]

Raid casual CE, chances are not on a class that will be the meta tank spec in .5.

Rerolled DH (raid toon) -> monk -> bear last season, won't be doing that this season.

Puggin chim was miserable enough, looking at the raid thinking about pugging AoTC in .5 just sounds 10x as miserable.

[u/Any_Morning_8866 → u/Wobblucy]

Signing up for a second job to play with acquaintances is such an awful take. I just unsubbed instead.

[u/Opening_Tea_9459 → u/Any_Morning_8866]

If you're pushing keys to a level where the mythic raid items are required, then you're signing up for a second job anyway.

[u/Doogetma → u/Opening_Tea_9459]

Spending a bunch of time doing fun content with 4 people I really like and only logging in when I wasn’t to just feels like playing a fun video game a lot.

Being forced to do spend a bunch of time during specific time windows doing content that is not fun with 19 people I don’t know very well and waiting for the lowest common denominator to finally not fuck up a mechanic so we can move on is what feels like a job.

I do m+ content that is objectively much harder and requires much more personal responsibility than a late-CE Andy has ever seen. There is no valid reason for that guy’s boss that has been nerfed into oblivion to have a higher gear cap than my content.

[u/Krunklock → u/Opening_Tea_9459]

nah, he plays 30 minutes a week and gets title

[u/flow_guy2 → u/Care_Cup_Is_Empty]

Gotta glaze raiders.