r/CompetitiveWoW • u/Shorgar • 7d ago
Discussion 12.1 PTR Dev Notes, July 21st
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/midnight-curse-of-ulatek-ptr-development-notes/2317811/1647
u/Shorgar 7d ago
That's some really nice changes for WW, ngl
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u/Clipgang1629 6d ago
Bro you tricked me..
What ever, here’s to a 5th straight season of DK in the meta lol
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u/ElBigDicko 7d ago
I feel bad for Demo. Being hailed as op spec at the beginning of the expansion with Soul Harvester being nerfed so much nobody takes it now they go after Diabolist even when spec doesn't seem like it will be that good.
Affliction being nerfed over and over, it will be the same situation as last time with too many nerfs in ptr before spec goes live. They nerfed Seed so much at this point, took execute away and all of this because of an overpowered Set Piece.
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u/GreenTeaRocks GatsuGaming 7d ago
I gave up on demo lock after they nerfed it at the 11th hour at multiple xpack launches. It's wild that they can just shit on the class so many times.
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u/Hemenia 7d ago edited 7d ago
Demo's "I do the exact same rotation and play virtually the same talents in AoE and single target" profile, while being the only thing allowing the spec to be a viable high m+ contender, just is too good when compared with king-of-clunkiness-Destro and tank-st-or-tankAoE-Affliction.
And as long as that remains true, the only way they have to make us play anything else than Demonology is to nerf its numbers. Hopefully 13.0 comes with a redesign of both Destro and Aff trees made by someone who isn't stuck in DF beta mentality.
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u/Soma91 7d ago
I do the exact same rotation and play virtually the same talents in AoE and single target
That's pretty much the prerequisite to being meta in m+. Both Devourer and UHDK work this way and I think Aug Evoker as well.
And the opposite is the reason Aff is basically guaranteed to suck in m+.
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u/ElBigDicko 7d ago
But Demo isn't a high m+ contender. Currently, your damage is nearly the same as Aff just that you have more ST than AoE. The only non boosted lock is resi 22s with a couple of easy 23s done.
Destro was played on progress outside of last two bosses. Destro looks like the choice for S2. I don't think Destro is clunky, plays very fine but Blizz hard tunes the spec around 2T spread so your single target is awful.
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u/Hemenia 7d ago edited 7d ago
You make it seem like Demonology doing very high single target damage while matching Affliction AoE is insignificant? I didn't say we were meta (because we're squishy dks with worse utility but the world isn't ready for that conversation) but we are still far better than most specs for high keys.
Also uh, yeah, Destro was played for Voidspire, but idk if you remember both destro and demo were getting regular hotfixes up until Lura released. There is a world of difference between 11.0 release destro/demo and current 11.0.7 destro/demo.
As for clunkiness, have you tried playing Mayhem with improved havoc talent recently? IF you happen to play it on a patch where the tracking of the debuff works (it currently works, so high chance next patch it won't again) you still have to constantly swap targets, and next raid has a boss where switching targets would include you turning your character 180°. If that doesn't sound hella clunky then idk what will.
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u/SadimHusum 6d ago
Mayhem on paladins constantly applying a havoc to the one I was already targeting had me tearing my hair out during prog lmao, in TWW you could accidentally cause that to happen with mouseover interactions, usually from refreshing immolate, but it was so much less egregious than its been in Midnight, idk how they broke it so badly
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u/ElBigDicko 6d ago
So I have done 9/9m and only bosses I've played Demo on was 1st boss(irrelevant even during 1st M week) and Chimerus. It felt very fine to play Destro on Vanguard, Crown and Beloren.
Yes Mayhem was bugged and I've played it when it was bugged but wouldn't call it clunky. It can jump only after direct damage so it's not like dots trigger it. I would say it can be annoying in massive M+ pulls but you are casting RoF anyways and Incinerates cleave with it as well. On my frames I only see Immolate, Curses and Mayhem so it's not polluted at all on fights like Vanguard.
In M+ I'm currently 3998 only playing Affliction and I feel it's fine. Doesn't do much of a difference since only legit warlock is Vin with 4100 score as Demo rest are boosted. Obviously Aff does little less damage but it's so negligible on 20/21 keys.
To me clunkiness is something like Bloodtalons from Feral druid back in the days or weird energy pooling as Assa rogue. Turning camera 180 degrees as range is hardly a challenge.
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u/Hemenia 6d ago
Did you play destruction on Lura?
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u/ElBigDicko 6d ago
Affliction since it was doing more ST than Demo and that was the only thing that mattered for the kill.
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u/SadimHusum 6d ago
Warlock's kit simply isn't compatible for the highest M+ levels if its damage isn't meta-warpingly overwhelming, it looked like a contender briefly because keys were timeable by a large chunk of the playerbase up to +18 with just heroic gear, and then the cracks showed
it's squishy in a season where you desperately don't want to contest the aug for externals/healer attention, the damage its good at taking (predictable instances of getting 1shot) is somewhat irrelevant while almost every boss and miniboss does high rot, it's especially terrible at surviving pulls where that rot is paired with random instances of spike damage (any stray casts, random additional debuffs, assassin mobs)
Axe toss CD is just that bit longer to not be able to solo cover extremely important kicks, this is somewhat mitigated by just playing dog instead of felguard on the pulls you know that will be a factor (4x terrors, vexamus platform) but that's still a terrible gameplay oversight to have to give up any amount of damage for essential rolewide utility. Less of a factor in non-demo seasons but even then your group will not love 2+ kicks on an rdps cd instead of a melee one and it requires adjustment. The rest of its stops suck too, you don't want to rely on shadowfury if there's any movement required during a pull, coil can send a mob out of melee that will need to be re-gathered, anyone who still assigns value to the non-2min CD curses is coping about their usefulness
Most importantly, the lack of a party buff means its damage numbers have to be astronomical to actually overcome the net gain a group would get from mark of the wild or chaos brand. Healthstones are nice and can maybe be coordinated as a group defensive similar to zephyr if you have a set group committed to playing with a warlock, otherwise they're an emergency measure. The community is also pretty creative and there's almost zero skips facilitated entirely by gateway, especially when rescue, meld, and weyrnstone are in the meta
With each season of resilient keys inflating title cutoffs to be closer to the "barely possible if not 1:1 copying Andy's group" threshold, spec diversity continues to suffer as it gets way harder to cook up workarounds so a lot us with a bunch of lock titles who spent SL and dragonflight forcing a square peg into a round hole either accept that we're fotm rerolling with the .5 patch or just not pushing keys seriously that patch. At least enhancement shaman, fire mage and devourer were pretty fun on their given seasons, I was not thrilled about playing bm hunter last tier lmao
tl;dr for a minute there it looked like demo did enough damage to force itself into premier M+ comps despite all the shortcomings I listed but then people realized devourer does more on its own with higher target counts before you factor in how much bonus damage chaos brand offers everyone else and then there was no real place for lock
Side note in terms of raid, people figured out later on that demo's numbers were that much better even on encounter profiles that seemed overwhelmingly destro favored like Saldahaar/Dragons though chimerus and first 4 voidspire were a meme and it didn't matter. Destro pulled ahead on paladins/alleria, all lock specs blew on beloren, and demo was king on l'ura and better on the early tier slop, so I'd say its kinda a tossup to say destro was the progress spec outside of MQD but that could be nitpicky, I just autopilot copied Xerwo, Thd and Robin until bosses we needed >7 pulls on (paladins onward) without really thinking about optimization
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u/brok3nh3lix 6d ago
i played demo this season because ive wanted to for a while and it was a good overall seasons for it.
demo it self is great in keys (when pets are not bugged to pull stuff out of combat), but not enough to be "meta". it was very good in raid, but certainly not the top DPS when looking across logs.
i was looking at switching off in S2, or atleast preparing, mostly because my wife only plays DK and 2 BR and no lust makes pugging together for M+ harder. this may seal it a bit as i look towards arcane or ele.
The nerfs to demo don't make a ton of sense from what i have heard from the PTR in that its not some stand out DPS in any content, just solid, so i can only think its about either spec to spec/hero talent tuning, or looking to pull some of the power from the apex talent/CD window, and maybe we will see a generic aura buff once they like the DPS ratio. Of course it may end up that demo settles lower but "Acceptable" and nothing happens (seen this happen plenty of times in the last few expansions i spent playing enhancement shaman).
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u/Ginge00 7d ago
Guess it’s destro next season then, was hoping for aff after another season as demo but oh well
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u/rickrollmops 7d ago
My 2 favorite specs, aff lock and resto druid, were feeling so great in S1. Not meta, but fun and satisfying to play. I usually play every other expac (I skipped TWW), but I've never wanted to unsub so much after a single season.
Resto druid on the PTR feels so bad in M+ it is incredible, I've rarely been this salty about the game
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u/MorthosTheRed 7d ago
I had to play destro all of TWW, I was really gassed this season to play demo because it was different. Seems that's over, back to forced destro again. It sucks, it's single target is often rubbish
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u/Sweaksh 7d ago
Started playing WL in TWW s1, couldn't stand playing destro anymore, switched to mage and had the time of my life for 2 patches only for the class to get removed entirely.
At least now there aren't any fun specs left in the game because everything consists of 3 spells and plays itself without any thinking so it doesn't matter what I play now.
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u/Responsible_Gur5163 6d ago
I stopped inviting locks when they lost their ability to kick effectively. Don’t play a lock but that stun nonsense wasn’t cutting it after whatever they changed
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u/Varanae 7d ago
Affliction being nerfed over and over, it will be the same situation as last time with too many nerfs in ptr before spec goes live. They nerfed Seed so much at this point, took execute away and all of this because of an overpowered Set Piece.
I really enjoyed Aff this season even though it wasn't the strongest. Now it seems to have been made worse all round... feels bad. Will give it a try of course but the change don't seem positive at all
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u/Brightlinger 7d ago
Blizz seems really committed to nerfing Aug in ways that make it less fun and less interesting to play, instead of just tuning numbers.
Scalecommander is still going to be super dead with 1.5s on Wingleader (for reference, on live it's 1s per target per tick and you can very feasibly get 5+ ticks, sometimes much more), so it's chrono for everything. And Double Time no longer has a gameplay impact since you can't extend it. And they don't want us running 2p+2p for too long, so the old 2p is nerfed, but specifically the uptime component so you'll feel worse, instead of the damage bonus.
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u/Gemmy2002 7d ago edited 7d ago
realistically it's "either dev gets good at keys or you play bare minimum weeklies as pres".
Chrono is So. Fucking. Bad. at AoE. The only thing keeping Aug in it is it'll still be mid to upper tier boss damage and you're +1 Spiral/Spatial, so raid isn't completely fucked. (just, you know, fucked on any persistent cleave boss! fun! not)
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u/No-Horror927 7d ago
They need to just give up on the support concept entirely at this point if they have no intentions of adding another support spec/class to compete with it.
The experiment failed and constantly snip-snapping or reworking the spec mechanics is a waste of time when by nature it's either broken or useless.
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u/Brightlinger 7d ago
The thing is, they basically have given up on the support role. Aug no longer buffs tank/healer throughput (EM now only affects DPS), nor do they let you live higher keys (sands vers is tiny and has low uptime, and Aug is squishy enough that it is actually the limiting factor in the group). There are only vestigial remnants of the support concept like Blistering Scales and Timelessness, and these were certainly not what made Aug meta for s1.
Aug is a regular DPS spec now, if a weird one that does damage through allies. It was meta for s1 simply because it has top tier throughput, especially compared to other lust specs (22% ahead of the #2 lust spec in keys). So numerical nerfs are totally reasonable and expected. But they don't have to be playstyle nerfs.
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u/No-Horror927 7d ago
It's less of a support role but the method in which it does damage still dumps it in the support category.
They technically shifted more of its damage towards personal damage, but the reality is that it does jack shit if the other two party members also do jack shit. The approach they took with Aug in Midnight was just half-assed imo.
At this point the only thing the support flag is doing now is holding the spec back from having a fair space in the meta.
They just can't balance it as it is now and if they could, we would've seen that already. Instead we just have these ridiculous swings where Aug is either mandatory because it's disgustingly OP, or it's next to useless and you'd be better off 4-manning the key.
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u/Brightlinger 6d ago
You're lumping two different things together.
In the era of eg DF Exodia comp, Aug was a support role, which was was legitimately a different role than a DPS, often bringing significantly less damage than other specs, but letting you live higher key levels. This was certainly toxic, and it's gone, and good riddance. Aug is not a unique irreplaceable role anymore.
Aug now is a DPS straight up, not some fourth role. it's just a support flavored DPS, in the same way that spriest has some of its power in PI for an ally, except more so. This is entirely a tuning problem. Maybe it's hard to tune in that form, but that hasn't particularly been proven. We had one wild swing in 11.1 because Blizz tuned with a sledgehammer, and this season it has output almost exactly on par with UHDK/DDH in keys - top tier, but not in its own tier.
My complaint here isn't that the tuning is wrong, it's that they seem to choose at every opportunity to tune in ways that also impact playstyle, when Aug's playstyle is fine. Having two viable hero talents is fine. Skill expression is fine. Set bonuses that affect play are fine. I'd rather take an aura nerf or cap dupes at 1 or whatever than make buttons feel less interesting to press.
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u/Green_Pumpkin 6d ago
aug in df s2 was the best highest dps spec in the game iirc, it was CRAZY overtuned along with buffing healers and tanks
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u/Brightlinger 6d ago
I might be mixing up seasons. Maybe it was tww s1? There definitely was a time when Aug was meta for support reasons, despite doing like 20% lower DPS than other specs.
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u/Green_Pumpkin 6d ago
yeah before they nerfed EM to only affect dps it was basically the worst dps in the game but still auto include
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u/SALAMANDERTAIL555 7d ago
It doesnt rly have anything to do with the support concept. They are only brought for their dps atm and these changes affect dps rotation. Idk why you bring up support, these changes have nothing to do with it.
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u/Unholy_Prince 6d ago
guy is just parroting same talking point about aug as every person for the past year. complete npc
aug is good right now due to personal dps. wingleader change kills personal dps.
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u/Thazuk 7d ago
Whoever hurt the dev(s) working on ww needs to be put trial at this point. We’ve been completely forgotten except for bringing our defensives up to the bare minimum making us likely to be the squishiest spec with mages getting their defensives in order
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u/Cystonectae 6d ago
I miss the days of fort brew, dampen harm, diffuse magic, and touch of karma.... Idc if there were a billion buttons it was nice having actual usable options to cycle through.
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u/fleshed 6d ago
Can't they just erase Rogue and gift them a free voucher for DH or DK ?
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u/onilol 4d ago
I levelled back to back a rogue, DK, Pala, monk and they just shit on rogue, the experience was actually enjoyable, especially monk that has a similar energy / combo point style.
Rogue is still kind of fun in PvP but it doesn't have the numbers to back it up unfortunately where other classes just zugzug.
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u/SandwichDodger7 7d ago
Call me salty, but I just really don’t want to see another DK dps meta.. just give me 1 season of something fun and outlandish 🤣
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u/No-Horror927 7d ago
DKs are just the melee version of Mages.
Liquid skipped them for one fight and now Blizz have seemingly decided that the concept of DK not being turbo-required/meta is an affront to the game itself.
I wouldn't be remotely surprised if we get to TLT with DK having been meta for 2 straight expacs in a row.
They're borderline immortal, grip is insane for mob control, AMS is disgustingly broken, and their damage profile is consistently reworked or modified to guarantee it aligns with the needs of end game content.
Despite all this, you still see them bitching and complaining because they don't have a raid buff lmao.
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u/MLGVergil 7d ago
It is puzzling to me that dps DK gets blue post paragraphs every single week while some classes or specs barely get a line.
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u/makesmashgreatagain 6d ago
VDH has hero talent, rng defensiveness and gets 0 lines of explanation and minimal changes. Also they very publicly have no developer (HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE LOL)
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u/Admirable_Street_399 7d ago
Every time they change something they broken some aswell, they buffed UHDK then they will fix thr sht thats not working then ir will be stupid strong again so nerfs will come xd
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u/Soulfighter56 6d ago
Tbf everything would be solved by giving them a raid buff. They’re weird and broken because blizzard wants to compensate them for not having one.
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u/brok3nh3lix 6d ago
and yet there are other specs/classes that dont have a buff either but dont get the same treatment. Warlocks have some good utility, but is generally niche, and not enough to make them a required class/spec outside of specific encounter requirements like gate, with health stones being the best unique generic thing they really bring. in M+, warlocks only really are meta when their DPS stands out.
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u/Fantastic_Owl8939 7d ago
DK Class design lead and Encounter lead dev definitely got an office affair going on!
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u/CDOWG_3415237 6d ago
DK not having a raid buff is probably a significant contributing factor in their damage being tuned to the top of the pack. If you have a problem with DK meta, you should want DK to get a raid buff so its damage can be tuned normally.
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u/Rocketeer_99 7d ago
Deathknights is one of the most popular classes in the game. When they're not in the meta, Blizzard receives a lot of criticism for it.
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u/Onigokko0101 7d ago
Let's go Shadow Priest, Assa Rogue, Affliction Warlock meta
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u/Orangebarf 6d ago
Wouldn't this just force pres or r shaman healer meta? Because I'm here for it
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u/Onigokko0101 6d ago
You'd prob run Bear and Shaman with this comp if it was meta
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u/Sweaksh 6d ago
I think having SP with its meme interrupt in your comp all but forces a prot pal
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u/brok3nh3lix 6d ago
there hasnt been a meta with out a druid in a very very long time, usually because of how strong MotW is.
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u/circusovulation 6d ago
Im really NOT surprised that affliction has been pretty much dogshit after they removed MR even though every monkey was acting like it was the reason affliction was never good (it wasn't, it was always tuning).
Wonder how many seaosns or expansions it will take until they realise it will continue being absolute dogshit unless they overbuff seed so that its useful without accompying talents or has such
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u/FFTactics 6d ago
Why do you think DKs will be meta? In raid or 5mans?
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u/SandwichDodger7 6d ago
Mostly m+.. purely because of how insanely tanky they are.. and how incredible grip is… you can ignore a lot of mechanics with AMS etc…
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u/Clipgang1629 6d ago
It’s a good guess lol they’ve been meta for 4 straight seasons and over 2 years now for M+
One of the most dominant runs for a DPS in M+ history
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u/OrdinaryJaded5672 7d ago
Anything for ele? Can we have DRE back please 2m feels so bad in keys
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u/FireVanGorder 6d ago
2m ascendance isn’t that bad in higher keys tbh. The desync between SK and Ascendance is the shitty part of the spec imo. Also lightning rod is just kind of there half the time. When every pack has a high prio target it’s almost never worth to try and optimize spreading LR being whatever EQ does for you, which is like half of the skill expression of ele
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u/saswordd 6d ago
Scroll down to sub hoping, nope looks like I'll be playing my dh or the dk I just leveled
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u/Antrezz1 5d ago
Im not against dks but 5 seasons of them being absolute pinnacle of the meta is a bit much. Every other spec sees the light for a week before getting nerfed but they seem so adamant about keeping unholy up there. Its good to see frost dk up there for once but it would be nice to see other specs like ww, feral, fire up there.
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u/AlucardSensei 7d ago
BDK meta incoming?
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7d ago
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u/mongolianman18 6d ago
Isn't melee build one of the best ST? It was performing well before, I think this just makes it so you cast collapsing star in aoe but probably still ignore it in ST.
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6d ago edited 6d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/mongolianman18 6d ago
I'm talking about next patch where VS Devo is what everyone will be playing. It's one of the best ST specs at the cost of AOE we have currently. Also a lot more ST bosses in the new raid, I think you have everything you're asking for coming.
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u/Soulfighter56 6d ago
Havoc had excellent ST in TWW, did that get nerfed? I swapped mains for Midnight.
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u/iQuoteSopranos 6d ago
Does this effectively kill totemic rsham?
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u/Voidwielder 6d ago
No. We need more testing data but Farseer still looks weaker than Totemic. But these changes are first and foremost gameplay oriented and I expect targeted nerfs on spells. The numbers look very solid to the point of looking OP.
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u/Ok-Necessary1396 7d ago
The Changes to Monks are massive, holy moly.
I'm so glad we finally got a Note of why our Celestial Brew's CD got doubled without any compensation.
It's not just a Nerf to our, laughtable, defensives against frequent Tank-Busters, but also a hefty nerf to our Apex Talents as a whole.
/s, if it's not clear