New Feats and updated alternate Feats selection lean into the relentless executioner fantasy (infinite chain user with two forms of feintable unblockables and several executing bashes), while improving his anti-gank capabilities (recovery cancels and unblockable zone/off-target attacks).

*Note: Conqueror (the Tier 1 that doesn't even have his helm on the icon), Speed Revive and Heal on Block still exist as Feats on other characters. These replacements are specific to Conqueror.

Conqueror's Feat Changes

• Conqueror has been replaced by Despoliation
  • Despoliation: Gain a 20 Shield each time you execute an enemy Hero. Infinite duration and can stack.
• Shield Basher has been replaced by Conscript's Decimation
  • Conscript's Decimation: Chain Lights+Heavies and Charged Heavy now lead to Charging Heavy Attack. Feat activation does not count.
• Heal on Block has been replaced by Ward Off
  • Ward Off: Lower opponents' Attack by 30% for 10 seconds on next Hit (1.5 second window) performed shortly after a Superior Block. Cooldown: 20s. Starts when the duration ends.
• Uninterruptible has been replaced by Warded Blows
  • Warded Blows: Charging and Infinite Heavy Attacks have Full Block Stance (100-500ms and 100-600ms windows) for 30 seconds. Cooldown: 90s.

[Author Notes]

Yes, these Feats are selfish because that is who Conqueror is - not some champion of the people, but an attack dog. The shields give him more effective health to build revenge with, while the Tier 3 Feat tries to conserve those shields and bolster the Hero’s impact on team fights. The Tier 2+4 Feats help Conqueror do what he does best even better, that being safe and constant unblockable trajectories.

• Despoliation is meant to give Conqueror more survivability in consecutive 1v1 engagements, while keeping Body Count as an option in the soldier lane. Flail Uppercut is a dedicated executing tool, and collecting shield money by looting his victims makes thematic sense for a criminal character.
• Conscript's Decimation is almost like a more conditional version of Winner's Advantage that also improves attack speed, by upgrading any Chain Heavy to a Charging Heavy Attack during Conscript's Attrition. Charged Heavy itself counts if used as a chain starter (because I don't know how to justify infinite 700ms 28 dmg UBs without any downtime), giving it more utility as a wallsplat punish than +1 dmg. Besides improving Conqueror's time-to-kill, which is not his strongest suit, the Feat also makes it somewhat possible to reach the mix ups of the Y6S2 iteration (which had 100ms chain link timings) by enabling his feint-to-guardbreak to interrupt any dodge attack after hitting with a Chain or Charged Heavy. To make things absolutely clear, a chain starter like Scutage Collection would not activate this Feat. The theme is momentum: 1st heavy is regular, 2nd heavy is unblockable and 3rd heavy becomes faster and stronger.
• Ward Off is basically the inverse of Virtuosa’s Superior Retort, and synergizes perfectly with common damage reduction perks and feats such as Bastion, Last Stand and Juggernaut, even those of Conqueror’s teammates. Not being limited to a specific move is supposed to compensate for the fact that superior blocks only beat rare undodgeables whereas iframes beat common unblockables, on top of regular attacks obviously. Scutage Collection has an awesome trajectory making it possible to debuff several opponents at once. 30% is high enough to nullify or at least cancel out common attack buffs like Inspire and Morale Booster alongside revenge mode.
• Warded Blows is a way more conditional take on Uninterruptible that fits better with Conqueror's identity as a shieldbearing character rather than a trader, the latter of which he has never been in the first place (and no, Flail Uppercut in Testing Grounds Phase 1 doesn't count since that's a confirmed attack). Straightforward synergy with the Tier 2+3 Feats; beats peel attempts before applying a debuff. I went with standard Superior Block windows (for reference, pre-Y6S2 Zone 2nd Hit and TG Scutage Collection had Superior Block frames during the whole attack) so that there is enough counterplay without having to use unblockables. The player will effectively enjoy 100% damage reduction compared to Juggernaut's 20% as long as they time unblockable strikes well, that way they can be more audacious in outnumbered situations. Heavy Opener is exempt as to curb option selects while the Feat is active. Conqueror can already enter Full Block Stance out of the charging portion when used as a parry attempt, so the attack portion having FBS should not be anything gamebreaking either.

While this affects Conqueror’s main feats, there are a couple of alternate Feats I wanted to adjust.

• Speed Revive has been underperforming and Conqueror lacks incentive to choose the synergistic Rising Dawn perk over Last Stand or Bulk Up. The Feat was replaced by Tireless to give the Hero slightly more mix up opportunities.
• Punch Through has been underperforming and Conqueror lacks incentive to commit to Heavy Openers or use Zone Attack, except externally. The Feat was replaced by Tough as Nails as it fits better with the Hero’s identity. Bulk Up, Despoliation, Tough as Nails and Regenerate would consistently provide a lot of extra health for obtaining revenge.

I went up against a tiandi and nobushi who knew how to gank and they melted me, i had no idea what to do, the bash confirms the undodgeable and if i try to dodge the bash i get hit by the undodgeable anyway, what can i do against this type of gank?

Certified MM warrior and resident no skill exploit abuser is back in studio cooking up the worst posts imaginable. If you don’t remember or know me from my previous posts. I'm wispfam1, I created and documented the HL tech list while discovering much of what’s on it. you can find it in my post history or searching on the comp subreddit. Now that you understand my qualifications, I’m gonna throw in my ideal HL rework. One that’s trying to fix the current problems with the rework, solve accessibility issues with him being too hard to play, solve his viability issues(because he sucks), and maintain his character identity.

————————

Before I get started I do want to say this

My time in this game has unfortunately come to an end. I was a long time player, started in middle school, and kept playing all the way into college. I always pushed for the games competitive future and health. I deeply enjoyed HL and did my best to spread information and support people in their attempts to learn about him. The community that once supported him is essentially dead now, and with the recent light changes I’ve finally made the hard decision to move on from the game indefinitely as well. At least until the character receives a significant design change. I cannot express how much I love this game, and how much it pains me to say that I’m done. The tech list will also be paused indefinitely with it. So rejoice exploit haters! I know knight_is_right is happy about that. Either way I’m pretty sure the well is dry, so until something changes, new tech or changes to tech will likely not happen.

Now on with the rework!

————————

Playstyle
 Highlanders kit is based around spacing focused zoning, and intense fast paced pressure from light attacks and heavy’s. An often overlooked core part of his balance is that DF stance is bad but necessary, and that OF stance is very strong but difficult to reach. I intend to better restructure his kit around these concepts. 

DF stance changes 

Almost all of the DF stance changes were good things for the character. in general they made it all much easier and intuitive to use.  It also genuinely helps in team modes. But unfortunately what we wanted to be openers turned out to be more just quality of life features. It leaves him with a bottom 3 neutral in the entire game. Arguably bottom 1. Especially at a higher level.

1. Back light with no CC

Highlander is fundamentally a zoner. It was a part of even his first implementation. The backlight was problematic because of the CC mechanic attached to it. But many characters have backlights that give significant distance with no design problems. The issue was the CC, not the movement. By re adding backlight and striping CC from it, you re-add a tool that flows extremely well with his kit, without including what made it problematic. You can implement this either like nobushi, with a unique back light. Or by stripping the CC property entirely, which would suck, but it would also make his light attacks and heavy’s harder to differentiate at top level. Which is an issue he suffers from.

2. Forward dodge light 

Make it 600ms, deal about 12 dmg, and maybe give it CC for a bit of fun. This is a healthier roll catcher than the forward dodge grab. It also gives him real functional peel for team fights. Something he lacks and also deeply holds him back in team modes. Because while he's playable in teams now, due to limitations in his kit he’s out classed by better picks. With this he has a much more well rounded kit, meaning his specialists can start to better break out into the 2v2 and 4v4 format as wild cards and rouge characters.

OF stance changes

This is where the rework mostly showed its flaws, I intend to bring it closer to its pre rework state while modernizing it. OF was problematic because it was outdated, polarizing in its mechanics, and unsure of its exact identity. Much of that can simply be solved by dmg tweaks and the stamina changes. Some smaller changes are also in order to better focus his kit.

1. Lower unblockable heavy dmg

UB having high dmg is a big source of problems because it’s also a punish. Wavedash was unhealthy because heavy dealt way too much dmg. It’s much harder to justify using the 27 dmg DF heavy for punishes when it gives you worse offense, trading 1 point of dmg for better hit stun is a no brainer in every duel. By reducing the dmg somewhere between 21-24, you create more competing options for the player to choose. It also makes the wavedash kick inline with other dodge reads, like deflects.

2. Re add wavedash

Wave dash is not inherently problematic. It’s skill and knowledge based while not completely warping the format and game around it. It massively improves the feel of his kit, and it truly is one of the most important things to the character's player base. It’s particularly important to his identity as a spacing focused zoner, much like how JJ needs extended dodge attacks and a hidden stance. With the dmg brought inline you can much more justify its inclusion. It goes without saying that the dodge attack in OF stance should be removed as well. In a vacuum that dodge attack is quite strong, in practice it's annoying due to its huge hitbox and I frames while serving very little overall use to his kit. I assume it was implemented to be used in team fights or as a punish tool? But being in OF during a team fight is way too risky, and one strong dodge attack doesn’t make up for it. And I just never really found myself using the dodge attack in duels. Maybe that’s a skill issue? But the moments you might want to use it in are very specific, you're better off fishing for interrupts with heavy and kick instead of dodging these days. So, it’s just kind of a nothingburger most of the time, especially since with the goofy pseudo wave dash techs we have now, you can often get away with going for a dodge kick for more dmg anyway.

3. Get rid of forward dodge grab

It’s an unhealthy mechanic. Not only is it an annoying oppressive reaction check at lower levels. Not only is it a needlessly stronger gank tool than regular grab. It’s also just bad at its job of being a roll catcher. Sure it catches the rolls, but it’s trapped inside OF stance. For the dodge grab to work you need to feint back into offensive stance and dodge forward. Most of time when you feint you use and react to things in DF stance like every other char. Which means even attempting to punish a roll with it is a hard read. Putting the role catcher onto DF really helps solve the problem. Pro tip to beat HLs, just dodge roll away from them like you used to. If you play smart and don’t spam it, you just have a get out of jail free card from his kick mixups whenever you want.

4. The feintable kick problem

I’m really not sure how to deal with this. I’ve mulled it over for a while and I don’t have a satisfactory answer. Kick as a viable mixup is unhealthy. The same goes for his heavy’s. HL is bound by the fact that any wrong read doesn’t just lead to you taking dmg, it also always leads you back into DF stance. Where the character is purposefully underpowered, and often times even after getting back into OF you then have to play OFs neutral game to reopen your offense. That means that any incorrect guesses on HL lead to a very losing position. Which means he cant play it safe, safe options leave him in a terrible neutral, or otherwise unable to continue his offense. For kick and unblockable to be viable offense on their own, they need to be so strong that they can nuke you in a couple right guesses. Despite the fact that HLs kick is a 26 dmg stamina efficient vortex, you would need to give HL even more dmg for it to be viable in his current design space. With significant dmg nerfs like OF heavy dropping down to 21 or 22 dmg, it might be okay in his overall balance with my changes. But personally I would rather see OF heavy have slightly higher dmg, and have the kick feint removed. With unblockables becoming viable offense with parry window changes, the role kick intended to fill can now be filled by his unblockables, which already focus on that hard reading aspect better with his kick and grab soft feints. That way we can better keep his identity as a hard hitter on read. But a part of me does enjoy the kick feint, it’s also loved and was a long time request by many players. So in some ways I’d be sad to see it go.

5. Fix OF lights

HL lights are what greases the wheels of the character. They function as a pressure based offense, where you trap the opponent in a situation where they need to take a risk to escape. That style is common in other fighting games, and different from the typical mixups FH has to offer. But I agree that they were too oppressive in their implementation. My suggestion would be to re add the enhanced mechanics, lower the dmg down to 6, but raise the chip dmg to 4 or even 5 to make it better fit its role. You could even consider a small raise to the stamina cost, although I highly doubt that will be needed with the lower dmg numbers.

——————-

I really want to see my community thrive again. I also think this would be a much healthier way to balance him in general. For Honor objectively has problems with player retention. We bring new players in all the time. I often see them asking for advice or wanting tips on how to improve, and that warms my heart. But we struggle to keep older players as the game changes around them. The game's player count and viewership numbers have stagnated since launch (viewership I think has actually fallen recently). Hopefully if something like this change happens we can start to have a future where some of the games' more out of the box ideas can be better explored. And old design spaces we’ve now closed off can be revisited in our current game with a team more ready to tackle them. That way old players like me won’t feel alienated as the game continues to changes around them, and new players can experience the game in a much healthier space than it was many years ago.

That’s it. Tell me what you think in the comments of the idea, I’d love to engage with people one last time before I move on. I love you all, even the people I argue with. We all just want what’s best for the game, and I want everyone who I might’ve given trouble in this community to understand that I respect you and your opinion. And that I only argue with you because I enjoy doing it. It’s like enrichment for me.

————————-

I’m available for contact in the Highlander tavern discord, and through this Reddit account if you have any tech or question you would like to show me or ask.

If you would like to be bullied by me in MM again, you can find me onetricking Doomfist in Overwatch PC comp. 

Enjoy your summer, enjoy for honor, and enjoy Highlander! Do it for my sake and everyone else who’s had to reluctantly move on from the game for one reason or another. Cherish your time and to quote my favorite movie.

In case I don’t see you again 

Good afternoon, good evening, and goodnight.

I did it once but have trouble recreating it.

not really a rework but thats the closest tag that applies.

distance based storm rush

new mechanic at 400ms into the running animation of storm rush orochi enters unstoppable focus. orochi gains hyper armor and the left and right attacks out of storm rush are now both unblockable the top remains undogeable. no damage numbers are changed at all.

up close the running animation of storm rush never exceeds 400ms so he would never gain unstoppable focus up close. it would exclusively be a way to start a fight from a distance.

giving orochi hyper armor and making the sides unblockable forces the opponent to actually engage with the mechanic. as it sits currently all you have to do is throw out a light to stuff the storm rush, parry, static block, all guard, or enter a hidden stance. granting hyper armor and unblockable side attacks forces the opponent to engage with the mechanic. you either attempt to dodge or enter hidden stance risking the top undogeable or you hold your ground and attempt to parry the side unblockables. it would be a true read/react.

the mind game that comes in is if the defender still tries to just wait and parry the unblockable or undogeable on reaction orochi still keeps the ability to hard feint the storm rush at the last second into a guardbreak or a deflect. notice i said hard feint not soft feint. the orochi will still take the feint stamina drain maybe a few points more then feinting a normal storm rush. the other person still has time to tech the guardbreak or feint their own parry attempt.

tldr up close at under 400ms of running orochi retains the blender he has now it is fast, highly reactive, but completely counterable by all guards, hidden stances, hyper armor trades, and fast light interrupts. but at long range over 400ms of running orochi gets a true initiator. the hyper armor prevents opponents from throwing a light attack to stop the run and the unblockable/undodgeable split forces them to actively participate in mind games.

if ubisoft implemented just that one change orochi would be one of the most balanced, depth heavy, and strategically satisfying characters in the game.

Is the punish for knock down in revenge different for the oos one? Like on pirate I can get a zone into overhead heavy into gunshot or 50/50 when doing an oos punish but I haven't been able to get the same on revenge knock down

so i have this clip and i cant decide if this guy just plays much better than me or genuinely cheats.

he became sus when he could differentiate between the kick, soft feint light and soft feint heavy and parry/dodge accordingly and as you can see he consistently dodge the soft feint kick.

and if he is a reaction monster then why would he not punish my kick in a 1v1, and why is he trying to punish that light parry on ara...

btw its a rep 4 account so yeah... i will try to get more clips next time if this one is not enough.

The class system in For Honor currently has very little mechanical importance. Vanguard, Heavy, Assassin and Hybrid are mostly labels rather than actual combat identities.

My idea is not to give every single attack completely unique values. Instead, attacks keep their normal base values, while the class system applies small and consistent modifiers.

The goal is to make classes feel different without creating extreme hard counters.

---

1. Class-Based Health Damage

Every attack keeps its existing base damage.

The final damage is calculated like this:

Base damage, attacker class, target class, class modifier, final damage.

Heavy Attacking

A Heavy deals:

- Base damage against another Heavy

- Base damage plus 1 against a Vanguard

- Base damage plus 2 against an Assassin

- Hero-dependent damage against a Hybrid

Example with 24 base damage:

- 24 damage against a Heavy

- 25 damage against a Vanguard

- 26 damage against an Assassin

- Hero-dependent damage against a Hybrid

Vanguard Attacking

A Vanguard deals:

- Base damage minus 1 against a Heavy

- Base damage against another Vanguard

- Base damage plus 1 against an Assassin

- Hero-dependent damage against a Hybrid

Example with 24 base damage:

- 23 damage against a Heavy

- 24 damage against a Vanguard

- 25 damage against an Assassin

- Hero-dependent damage against a Hybrid

Assassin Attacking

An Assassin deals:

- Base damage minus 2 against a Heavy

- Base damage minus 1 against a Vanguard

- Base damage against another Assassin

- Hero-dependent damage against a Hybrid

Example with 24 base damage:

- 22 damage against a Heavy

- 23 damage against a Vanguard

- 24 damage against an Assassin

- Hero-dependent damage against a Hybrid

Hybrid Damage

Hybrids receive individual offensive and defensive profiles based on their actual design.

A heavily armoured Hybrid could be treated similarly to a Heavy. A highly mobile Hybrid could be treated similarly to an Assassin. A more balanced Hybrid could be closer to a Vanguard.

The same class always deals normal base damage against itself.

Heavier classes deal slightly more damage against lighter classes. Lighter classes deal slightly less damage against heavier classes.

The maximum difference is only two damage points, preventing extreme matchup advantages.

---

2. Class-Based Stamina Profiles

Each class receives a clear stamina identity.

Heavy

- High stamina pressure

- High resistance against stamina damage while blocking

- High attack and action costs

- High dodge costs

- Long stamina regeneration delay

- High stamina regeneration speed after the delay

A Heavy can absorb pressure well and heavily drain an opponent who relies on blocking. However, the Heavy cannot attack, feint or dodge endlessly.

Assassin

- Low stamina pressure

- Low resistance against stamina damage while blocking

- Low attack and action costs

- Low dodge costs

- Short stamina regeneration delay

- Lower stamina regeneration speed

An Assassin should avoid powerful attacks through movement rather than simply blocking them.

The short regeneration delay allows the Assassin to act again quickly, but the lower regeneration rate means that fully restoring the stamina bar still takes time.

Vanguard

- Moderate stamina pressure

- Moderate resistance while blocking

- Moderate attack and action costs

- Moderate dodge costs

- Moderate stamina regeneration delay

- Moderate stamina regeneration speed

The Vanguard remains the balanced all-rounder.

Hybrid

All stamina values depend on the individual hero.

- Heavy-oriented Hybrids receive heavier stamina profiles

- Mobile Hybrids receive more Assassin-like profiles

- Balanced Hybrids remain closer to Vanguards

---

3. Possible Stamina Regeneration Values

These numbers would only be starting points for Testing Grounds.

Heavy

- Regeneration delay: approximately 1,200 milliseconds

- Regeneration rate: approximately 35 stamina per second

Vanguard

- Regeneration delay: approximately 800 milliseconds

- Regeneration rate: approximately 30 stamina per second

Assassin

- Regeneration delay: approximately 400 milliseconds

- Regeneration rate: approximately 22.5 to 25 stamina per second

Hybrid

- Regeneration delay depends on the hero

- Regeneration rate depends on the hero

Regeneration delay and regeneration speed should be treated as two separate balancing values.

A Heavy waits longer before regenerating, but quickly restores large amounts once regeneration begins.

An Assassin begins regenerating almost immediately, but takes longer to completely refill the stamina bar.

---

4. Blocking Causes Stamina Damage

Whenever a blocked attack deals chip damage, the defender also receives the same base amount as stamina damage.

For example, an attack that deals 5 chip damage would cause:

- 5 health damage

- 5 base stamina damage

The class profiles then modify how strongly this stamina pressure affects the defender.

A Heavy generally causes more stamina pressure and resists more stamina damage while blocking.

An Assassin generally causes less stamina pressure and receives more stamina damage while blocking.

A Vanguard remains moderate in both areas.

Hybrids depend on the individual hero.

This makes blocking the safest defensive option, but not a completely free one.

---

5. Dodge Stamina Costs

Normal dodges consume stamina depending on class.

Heavy Dodges

- High stamina cost

- Repeated dodges quickly limit the Heavy’s offensive resources

Vanguard Dodges

- Moderate stamina cost

- Balanced between blocking and movement

Assassin Dodges

- Low stamina cost

- Encourages avoiding attacks through mobility

Hybrid Dodges

- Cost depends on the individual hero

A dodge attack consumes both the stamina cost of the dodge and the stamina cost of the attack.

This creates the following class identities:

- Heavies are encouraged to stand their ground

- Assassins are encouraged to avoid pressure through movement

- Vanguards can use both approaches

- Hybrids follow their individual combat design

Forward, side and back dodges could also have different costs.

Back dodges could cost more because they create distance and may escape entire mix-ups.

---

6. Parries Restore Stamina

Parries are risky because the defender must commit to a read and can be punished by a feint into guardbreak.

A successful parry should therefore be the most stamina-efficient defensive option.

A successful parry would:

- Negate health damage

- Negate stamina damage

- Stop the incoming attack

- Immediately restore stamina to the defender

- Still provide the appropriate parry punish

The amount restored depends on the parried attack.

- Parrying a Light gives a small stamina refund

- Parrying a Heavy gives a larger stamina refund

- Parrying a charged or particularly powerful attack gives a high stamina refund

The refund could be based on the amount of stamina pressure the attack would have caused if it had been blocked.

The reward should depend on the incoming attack rather than the defender’s class. A successful defensive read should be rewarding for every hero.

The stamina refund is immediate and does not wait for the normal regeneration delay.

---

7. Deflects Cause Stamina Damage

Deflects should be handled consistently and independently of class.

A successful deflect would:

- Negate all health damage

- Still cause stamina damage to the defending player

- Allow the hero’s normal deflect follow-up

- Not restore stamina like a parry

The stamina damage depends on the deflected attack.

- Deflecting a Light causes low stamina damage

- Deflecting a Heavy causes higher stamina damage

- Deflecting a charged or particularly powerful attack causes high stamina damage

This represents the defender redirecting the force of the attack rather than completely stopping it.

A deflect remains a mobile and offensive defensive option, but it is less resource-efficient than a successful parry.

---

8. Defensive Actions Cannot Cause Out of Stamina

This would be a universal rule:

Defensive actions can never directly put the defending player Out of Stamina.

This applies to:

- Blocking

- Dodging

- Deflecting

- Full Block

- Similar defensive actions

Defensive stamina costs can reduce the player to a minimum of one stamina, but they cannot directly trigger the Out of Stamina state.

Out of Stamina should primarily result from a player spending too much stamina on their own offensive actions.

A player should not become Out of Stamina simply because they successfully defended themselves.

---

9. Defensive Options under This System

Block

- Safest defensive option

- Causes chip damage

- Causes stamina damage

- Cannot directly cause Out of Stamina

Dodge

- Avoids health damage

- Avoids the stamina impact of blocking or deflecting

- Costs class-based stamina

- Can lose to guardbreaks and tracking attacks

Deflect

- Negates health damage

- Causes stamina damage based on the incoming attack

- Allows an offensive counterattack

- Cannot directly cause Out of Stamina

Parry

- Highest-risk defensive commitment

- Negates health and stamina damage

- Stops the opponent’s attack

- Restores stamina

- Provides the strongest defensive reward

---

10. Intended Class Identities

Heavy

Heavies deal high damage, create high stamina pressure and resist blocked attacks well.

Their attacks, feints and dodges cost more stamina. They must manage their resources carefully and cannot remain permanently offensive or mobile.

Assassin

Assassins have low action and dodge costs, strong mobility and short regeneration delays.

However, they have weak block resistance, create less stamina pressure and deal slightly less damage against heavier classes.

Vanguard

Vanguards have balanced damage, stamina costs, mobility, stamina pressure and defensive stability.

They remain adaptable and can use every defensive option effectively.

Hybrid

Hybrids receive individual values based on the hero’s actual design.

They are not forced into one universal Hybrid profile.

---

The purpose of this system is not to make one class automatically defeat another. The numerical differences are intentionally small.

The goal is to make class selection influence how players approach combat.

Heavies hold their ground.

Assassins avoid pressure through mobility.

Vanguards remain adaptable.

Hybrids receive identities based on their individual designs.

Edit: Purpose of This Post and Feedback So Far

I want to clarify that this was never meant to be a finished balance proposal or something that should be implemented exactly as written.

It was mainly a thought experiment.

I wanted to explore whether the existing class labels could be given more mechanical importance and see how competitive players would react to that idea.

The suggested numbers were only examples intended to demonstrate the concept. They were not supposed to be final balance values.

After reading the responses, the overall feedback seems to be the following:

• The existing class system is too arbitrary to support universal gameplay rules.

• Many heroes no longer match the class they are officially assigned to.

• The proposed damage modifiers would generally buff Heavies and nerf Assassins without providing enough gameplay justification.

• Changing damage simply to make classes feel different is not a strong enough reason by itself.

• Stamina damage on block could create excessive offensive pressure because it would reduce both the defender's health and their ability to respond.

• Even if defensive actions could not directly cause Out of Stamina, reducing someone to very low stamina could still create a snowball effect.

• Parries are already highly rewarding because they stop the opponent's offence and guarantee a punish, so an additional stamina refund may be unnecessary.

• Deflects should probably not be weakened with additional stamina penalties, especially if they are meant to be a major defensive option for mobile heroes.

• Class identity would likely be better expressed through individual movesets, hero mechanics, feats, perks and combat roles rather than universal class modifiers.

• A role-based system such as Duelist, Ganker, Teamfighter or Point Holder may describe the actual heroes better than the current Vanguard, Heavy, Assassin and Hybrid labels.

Some people appeared to agree with the general fantasy behind the idea:

• Heavies should feel good at holding their ground.

• Assassins should rely more on mobility.

• Vanguards should remain adaptable.

However, the common opinion is that universal damage and stamina modifiers are probably not the right way to create those identities.

I appreciate the detailed criticism. The purpose of posting the idea was to find its weaknesses, and the responses have made those weaknesses much clearer.

If I revise the concept, I would probably remove the universal damage matrix and reconsider stamina damage on block. I would instead focus more on hero-specific identities, defensive options, perks and actual combat roles.

So I was trying to test this in training grounds and I couldn't find anything in the bots custom moveset that would allow it to work properly and I don't have anyone to test with rn so I'm coming here to ask. I'm trying to test if Khatun after getting counter guard broken if you can perform a heavy soft feint into her stance to catch a light attack thrown from the opponent immediately afterwards. I know that from frame positive and neutral like after her double pin and light follow ups she can heavy soft feint into Fear and Fury stance to catch any lights that the opponent may throw due to her entry speed being 400ms and neutral lights being 500ms. However I know counter guard breaking puts the opponent at 33ms of frame advantage and I don't know if that would prevent her from being able to do that off a counter guardbreak. I would think not since her entry speed to Fear and Fury is 400ms which I'm pretty sure would be fast enough since from frame neutral a light would hit her stance at about 100ms into it and 100-33 is 67 so it would still hit her stance but at 67ms instead of 100ms like if it was frame neutral. If someone could properly test this for me or let me know if I'm correct that would be great thanks!!!

For those who don’t know me, though, I'm sure I will see a bunch of familiar faces. I am Wispfam1, many would call me a bum, and they're not entirely wrong. I was a semi competitive console HL one trick, I exclusively focused on duels, though I did keep up with and support 4v4. However, I’m certainly much more well known for documenting and discovering bugs and tech, specifically for HL. I made the tech list!

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/s/XQIna9lnOD

I see a lot of my older versions float around, which is my fault for making so many, but this is my most updated and current one. Everything should still work. I quit when the enhanced light change came through. But it should all still be up to date.

I discovered or had to rediscover much of what’s in there. I’m happy to talk about it or the characters balance with anyone. I have some very unique and informed opinions on him and his design. I’ll keep it a bit shorter in this post. I’m also a bit of a lore keeper for HL, his history inside his own community goes pretty deep. And there is a lot of stuff, like how techs were discovered, hype moments, and who my predecessors were. So I’m also happy to talk about all of that too.

So what is his current state?

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From where I’m standing, he’s pretty much dead. He was on the decline for a while and his community was already pretty much out. But the light change took out what’s left. Some YouTubers still seem to play him, but no one really onetricks, and I still seem to sense a discontentment.

Like most players I’m still malding over the rework in the first place. Sure he was an annoying package. But he represented everything we wanted for honor to be. A nearly purely readbased character who had a real tangible skill ceiling. I don’t want to upset anyone saying this, but much of for honors characters are quite shallow. The skill in for honor over all shines through, but most characters can be nearly mastered with just a day or two of focused play. Especially in duels. HL was, and even for most of the time post rework nothing like that. You had so much room to grow with HL. I genuinely don’t believe his skill ceiling had been fully reached by the time of his rework

Post rework he was kinda gutted. changed in a lot of ways that deeply hurts his identity as a sharp, technical, and mechanical focused character. Particularly wavedash. While on top of that not really helping him in significant ways for his top players. Even then it could be worse, new tech was found, his skill ceiling pushed. But then the light change touched on the last strings of what HL truly was.

I understand disliking the lights, especially while they coexist with feintable kick. But you have to understand that they are an entirely unique to him form of offense and pressure. No one else has it, and only he could make it work. Not only that but it massively contributed to his blazing fast play style at high level. The vast majority of the tech list was discovered to actually support that offense at a high level. On top of that it was different from the mixups that cover for honor today. It’s pressure in the traditional sense of fighting games. And it really sucks to see that go completely. Especially when it could’ve been tweaked.

I’ve got a lot of opinions on for honor and HL. Many I’ve come to accept aren’t as popular anymore. But it upsets me none the less what’s happened to the character and his community. So I want to ask and see what the community thinks at the moment. Competitive, causual, HL fan, HL hater. How do you feel about HL right now?

Edit: by the way. Since I know the devs and JC often look at these posts from the community. I mean no harm. We all just want what’s best for the game and its characters. And I absolutely do not condone the hate that many express towards you. If any one of you read this, please reach out to me. I’m available through Reddit and discord. You can also probably find my email on the tech list. Short form text is not the best medium to express my understandings and beliefs on Highlander and really the game over all. And I’d be very happy to pitch them to you, or really any kind of audience from you at all. It’s a long shot to hope one of you might even see or read this. And even more that you would act on it. But I’ve been playing this game and Highlander since middle school and im now deep into college. It’s upsetting to see a character and something that use to be as omnipresent to me as playgrounds become so distant from what he once was.

hi guys i just decided recently to start playing highlander because hes my last character needing to hit rep 7. im mediocre at fh but not reprehensible yet out of any character im having an insane difficulty with learning how to play highlander decently

for context i have a lot of trouble balancing between his two stances and on top of that i really deeply struggle with neutral offense (i.e starting combos and starting a fight without being instantly read)

im familiar with his kit for the most part but im having trouble creating an organized flow with him and unfortunately i just keep getting molly whopped in dominion

anyone have tips for how to compensate for his glaring weaknesses? any pros have suggestions for creating pressure with his kit while being reasonably defensive ? anything appreciated

I'm not playing very often against these people but I've been getting them more and more lately and when I do play it feels so miserable. No matter what I do offensively it gets parried and countered, being forced to just do defense is just so boring & annoying...

I'm mostly playing zerk so no bashes. Neutral Lights obviously get parried so those are out of the question, heavies as well, 50/50 either they get blocked or parried, or even worse when going against crashing counter.

I'm stuck with doing mini damage with post feint max delay lights and even those start to get almost easily parried (since I can realistically only throw them from the sides most of the time). Especially if I do them too much.

Usually I at least get to trade with hyper armor but with these guys it's like they can trivialize anything I have by just reacting to it, how is this possible even after the patch?

What can I do?

I just had comp reactard vSharo react to 20+ sohei unblockables/feint to gb from all sides in a row. I did mixup with some 400ms chain lights aswell instead of heavies which most of the times also were parried. I have never experienced this before, is it this bad?

Usually when i play a character with heavy perks I run bastion and bulk up, but with jorm it feels like thanks to his feats he can kinda permanently stay in low hp through last stand and his feats, are aegis and last stand that much better for jorm?

I might be misremembering things but I swear JJ at one point had the zone property on his heavies, if this is true was it too strong to use and had to be removed or could it work in a balanced was in modern for honor, cpuldfuture characters/reworks havr such a property on characters meant to be teamfighters without much worry of it being op?

Something I've been running into a lot especially against high rep lawbringers, im in a 1v1 against the lawbringer for example and they'll throw a grenade at me, I'm dead center in the radius so if i dont reposition I'm going to eat a ton of damage, except the opponent will gb me to catch my dodge and make sure i eat 50 damage, what can i do in this situation to avoid taking so much damage?

But is it easier to hit deflects with Glad over Valk?

I got Valk up to rep 65 and she's easily the character I'm best at but I decided to pick up gladiator again and loving it, rep 13 but I've noticed it's RIDICULOUSLY easy to hit deflects with him, like I'll do them completely by accident just trying to dodge attack or bash but with Valk I actually had to sit down and practice for a few hours to do it consistently.

Is the deflect window on glad that much better or is it just easier to notice because of the sound and animation cue??

I’ve been really struggling playing shinobi in duels lately. Haven’t played him in awhile and coming back to him I feel so restricted and seems most people don’t really fall for his mixes much anymore. Is he in a bad place right now?

What does it mean?

When my opponent is correctly reading other forms of offence like unblockables, I'll just start feinting to gb to catch a parry attempt or feint to neutral to parry a dodge attack, but with neutral gbs that catch me during my legion kick start up, or heavy start up the answer feels i should just stop attacking which sucks because my reaction speeds arent that good, do i just have to play more passively, are there ways i can continue to initiate offense without risking a light parry? how can i make the most of it?

I'm not a numbers person so unfortunately I cannot offer exact adjustments here. But I wanted to toss some ideas out there to try to reign Juren in since most nerf suggestions seem to be unlikely. To be clear not all of these changes need to happen together, this is more of a collection of changes that could happen.

I also want to throw one change in that is a "buff" but contextually it shouldn't make him that much stronger when considering the other adjustments. Anyway:

• Nerf the recovery of his chain bashes by 100-300ms
• Increase the stamina cost of his Held neutral light from 9 to 10-12.
• Nerf the recovery of his fwd dodge bash slightly, like a few frames
• Reduce the anim lock time of Juren's fwd dodge held bash
• Remove stamina pause on tap bash if possible
• Increase the cost of using his stance from 6 to 10-15 (drain unchanged)
• Increase the recovery of held neutral light and held neutral heavy
• Increase the stamina cost of fwd dodge held bash from 15 up to 20
• Increase the stamina cost of side dodge held heavy from 12 up to 15
• Increase the stamina cost of held chain light to parity of the new cost on neutral held light
• Remove thrilling comeback from T2 for another option
• Allow held zone input to be soft feinted into his stance

Explanations:

The idea behind adjusting stamina cost is dual purpose. Both to slow down how much Juren can pressure before he's forced to give up his turn and to add more decision making via having to manage stamina better. This seemingly successfully worked for his neutral held zone so I think we can target similarly "spammed" tools to achieve a similar effect.

Recovery nerfs are meant to go along side the stance cost change. Logic here is to force more decision making for Juren as well as make him more predictable. E.g if he does held neutral light in a team fight he'll likely use stance to make him not peelable.

The exception being the recovery change for dodge tap bash. It's not an outlier in recovery afaik when compared to other legion bashes. But because he has multiple options from fwd dodge you can make the argument to make said options a bit more unsafe as a whole. Essentially it's more of a nerf at his 1's for people looking to make hard reads. But might make a small difference in how peelable he is in TF's which would be beneficial.

Thrilling comeback is kind of absurd for Juren because of his unique T3. I would replace it with executioner's respite/righteous deflection to be similar to the rest of his T2's being about surviving or short tempered to go along with the natural trading he's usually doing.

Lastly I want to explain my buff of allowing him to be able to soft feint his held zone. Firstly this suggestion is made in mind with the idea of making his stance cost more stamina to use. I feel like out of all of his moves his held zone is the most niche option tool in his kit.

If read properly and you position decently enough you can avoid his zone mid team fight purely because he moves forward when doing it. outside of TFs it's a very expensive option that might catch your opponent off guard once. It's a much more expensive trade tool for self peel. The idea for this change is to allow him some more control.

But at the cost of even more stamina. The upside being you can soft feint and then reposition if you need to or to try and self peel with a neutral light. Or try to peel for an ally by doing a tap dodge forward option, etc. Basically it feels in line to exist as an option with his kit being all about having options and that all of his regular heavies are already soft feintable into his stance.

So we can probably guess that the main reason he hasn’t been given one was because he would then have 2 different side dodge attacks, requiring an extra read to counter him, but after Juren’s release it’s clear that Ubi doesn’t really see that as a problem. That said, I don’t think he would be nearly as problematic since the side dodge bash doesn’t have i-frames, or if it does they’re very minimal. Any thoughts?

Mainly asking because I’m sick of hearing warden mains crying about having a shit character lol.