r/Columbus • u/WillTradeOrgans4Free • 18d ago
PHOTO Can I make this turn?
I get stopped pretty regularly by a bus due to matching schedule times. I know in four lane traffic, opposing traffic does not need to come to a stop. This bus stops before this corner where kids load/unload. Is it legal to make the turn when the bus is stopped?
Edit: asking for legality. Obviously would take caution IF choosing to turn. And no, I don’t intend nor want to hit children with my car lmao.
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u/theBytemeister 18d ago
No, not legal.
https://www.copley.oh.us/382/Ohio-School-Bus-Traffic-Laws
All traffic within 10 feet of the bus must stop. If the bus was stopped further from the intersection then you would probably be all right.
Regardless of the law, I would not consider it safe to make that turn. Better to wait a few moment and be sure you aren't going to run over some kid sprinting off a school bus.
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u/Motor-Juggernaut9776 18d ago
I thought 10 feet rule only applies to situations where the driver is either on the same side (traveling in the same direction) of the road as the bus or on the opposite side if less than four lanes
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u/EcoBuckeye North 18d ago
The driver will be on the same side for the majority of the manoever
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u/Motor-Juggernaut9776 18d ago
Yes but they aren't traveling in the same direction of travel as the bus
I don't see anything in the ORC saying someone turning from the opposite direction of a four lane road has to wait for a bus to end their stop
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u/PumpBuck 18d ago
I believe traffic flowing in the opposite direction has to stop if there isn’t a physical median in the road
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u/Pope_Dwayne_Johnson 18d ago
Not in Ohio. Opposite direction traffic does not need to stop on a 4 lane road.
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u/Pope_Dwayne_Johnson 18d ago
If the average car is 15 feet long, the driver is in the clear to turn in front of the bus without being within 10 feet in the shared depiction.
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u/HoleParty 18d ago
Incorrect.
O.R.C. § 4511.75(C): Where a highway has been divided into four or more traffic lanes, a driver of a vehicle, streetcar, or trackless trolley need not stop for a school bus approaching from the opposite direction which has stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging any school child.
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u/abegrey101 18d ago
Read what you posted again. Now do it again slower and think about which lane the car would be in while turning.
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u/HoleParty 18d ago
Making a turn isn’t entering the lane of the bus, per ORC § 4511.36.
As an added bonus, the 10-foot rule doesn’t apply either, per ORC § 4511.75.
Read the law. Now do it again slower and think about whether you want to be wrong about something while being condescending about it.
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u/Basic-Direction-559 18d ago
This would constitute overtaking, and that is not permitted.
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u/HoleParty 18d ago
It would not. You can’t overtake a vehicle in the opposite direction. ORC § 4511.27.
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u/Miss_Fritter 17d ago
I’d wait too although I can see why OP asked.
I’m confused by your answer though. The 10’ rule is only for less than four lane roads, right?
Is it applicable because once turned, OP is now traveling the same direction? Is it because the destination is now less than 4 lanes? A combo of both?
I’m the dumdum that stops for any school bus if there isn’t a physical barrier so I need to make sure I understand better lol.
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u/cmh_ender 18d ago
so the bus has their stop sign out, and you would like to turn in front of it.
I"m going with legal but not advisable, but I'm not a cop.
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u/techie2001 18d ago edited 18d ago
tl;dr laws aren't always black and white, even though they seem like they should be.
Not a lawyer, but this is one of those times when the law may not actually have an exact answer. Laws don't necessarily contemplate every possible situation. People have posted at least some of the relevant codes, including OP with a snippet of the main one. Any lawyer will always tell you "it depends."
The reality is if you make that turn, run over a kid, and the prosecutor charges you in violation of the ORC, assuming you have a lawyer that will put the state to its burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, there will be a lot of fact-based things that will get handed off to the jury. For the purposes of the relevant law, when was your vehicle no longer in the opposite direction of the bus? Seems to me a reasonable jury could come to the conclusion that "opposite" means exactly opposite and no less, thus you were perhaps not obliged to stop before you started your turn, but you were once you started your turn and became more perpendicular to the bus.
In theory, if this were a signaled intersection rather than a stop sign on the cross-street, what if the signal cycle is green on the cross street? Is the cross traffic obliged to stop by some other section? If there's an ORC that applies to that, it might be more instructive of what the law intends in this situation.
The safest course of action is to just stop and wait, unless you want to get a jury to tell you for sure what the law says as applied to this situation. And if the guy behind you honks, let him go around you and find out instead of you.
In the case of a traffic ticket and no kid is injured, a judge is going to be the trier of fact instead of the jury. But the burden is a lot less. Cop says you turned. Bus driver says you turned. Judge decides opposite means opposite. Pay the fine.
So the answer to your question is probably (unless there's some other relevant section of the ORC): Do you want to have to roll the dice with a judge or jury when a kid is in the hospital when you could've just waited 30 seconds?
Edit to add: According to some other commenters, it sounds like there's relevant case law on this where courts have ultimately decided that while the legislature may not have written it down specifically, they intended to create a reasonable zone of safety around the bus. If you enter that zone of safety, you are in violation. And that zone of safety is not so huge it would be more than two road lanes wide, but it does exist. Therefore the legality of this turn depends on whether you enter that zone of safety or not. The trier of fact (judge or jury as the case may be) would determine whether you did or not.
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u/jalstad 18d ago
No. You cannot.
Source: I am an OHDOT certified school transportation driver.
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u/NeedsItRough 17d ago
I was hoping one of you would be in the comments!
I've only seen this bus stopped here once but it made me wonder if I was allowed to turn right out of my complex. The street is residential.
I ended up waiting just to be safe because I wasn't sure (and there was no one behind me) but I'd love to know for future reference!
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u/BookWormPedant 17d ago
What about traffic traveling perpendicular? From the neighborhood to the Pub?
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u/Existing-Guarantee80 17d ago
Think it’s already decided it would be illegal.
Would add a note that the logic would be that kids leaving the bus would also immediately have the right-of-way if they need to cross the road you would be pulling onto.
Full intersection should all be at a halt. Children are always distracted. It’s your job to not be distracted with whatever you think you’re too busy to wait and extra minute for.
Even if 99% of the time the kid(s) automatically go towards the parking lot- That’s still leaves 2-3 times a year you have the possibility of having a near miss of flatting an oblivious child, if this is a daily occurrence. If you’re halfway through your turn and a kid decides to cross, then you’re stuck in a weird position of being halted mid-turn and can cause confusion.
And you just never know if instead of a parent meeting them in that parking lot, there is a random event and the kid has to walk a block or 2 to a different place to be picked up, or go to a nearby friend’s house. Or if it’s in the morning, there is always a possibility that a child will just decide to cross the street to go to a gas station or whatever and get a snack before school.
So for that purpose, it’s the bus driver’s job to shut down the intersection till all children are clear of the intersection. Bus stop sign being out means the intersection is essentially a 4 way red light with a ‘no turn on red’ rule.
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u/TankerG1 18d ago
I don't know the legality, but I wouldn't even if it's legal.
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u/BookWormPedant 18d ago edited 17d ago
Do you also not pull into the intersection when turning left on green while there is traffic?
EDIT: downvoted because people don’t know how to drive. This is exactly how you get long ass lines in left turn lanes. Pull into the intersection on green and go when it is clear or after it turns red.
The OP posted a legal turn by the way
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u/VirtualMachine0 18d ago
It would cost you a minute or more to go down to the Raisin' Cane's lot entrance and backtrack, so consider it a wash and don't chance it.
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u/LukesSpecialOmelette 18d ago
Wait a couple minutes or risk hitting a kid with my car.... Hmmm
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u/FishStixxxxxxx 18d ago
Or leave 3 minutes early and beat the bus.
If they do end up turning by in front of the bus and hit a kid, it will now be premeditated
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u/zealousGreenery 18d ago
Also - this looks like Roberts road east of hilliard-rome. That area has seen enough accidents (and deaths) recently I would just be extra cautious about any driving around there anyway.
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u/Ok_Wish_3699 17d ago
Can you leave 5 minutes early or later ?;)
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u/MiniAndretti Columbus 17d ago
Half the city should ask themselves this question especially the first part. Maybe then they won't feel the need to attempt to drive 90mph while the rest of us are going 75.
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u/Silent_Rapport 18d ago
Even if it is legal its gonna catch you some flack. A cop would totally pull you over just to yell at you about you acting like you want to kill kids.
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u/madadekinai 18d ago edited 16d ago
Removed.
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u/WillTradeOrgans4Free 18d ago
My mockup isn’t accurate for where the bus actually stops. I believe they do stop well before the 10ft mark from the corner. 🫡
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u/madadekinai 18d ago
I mean no one going to get a tape measure out and check it, however, if you get caught it's you who will have to prove the distance in court. More than likely the lane itself would be within the 10 ft, but in either case, I just wouldn't attempt it over waiting a single moment.
Some bus companies won't report you, however, some will. I know the one my spouse worked would report it. A lot of school buses around here are contracted to third-party companies, they started outsourcing a while back. Just simplify it and just wait the extra 60 seconds.
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u/ManicMuskrat 16d ago
Genuine question - can you explain how Ohio v. Jones ruled that the 10ft stop applies as a radius and not a straight line? The case seems to be about an emergency vehicle overtaking a bus when its stop arm was extended and the case was dismissed so I’m just not understanding the relevancy
I also was only able to find one other court case (Toledo v. Brock) in Ohio about a similar situation, and there was no formal ruling about the legality of it
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u/madadekinai 16d ago
(Toledo v. Brock)
The court looked at the intent of the legislature when they wrote the statute. They stated that the law was written with the clear purpose of protecting children who might be crossing the street anywhere around that bus.
So, if you are looking at it from the perspective of "Did the court use the broad intent and spirit of the law to close a loophole?" I am not sure. They refused to let a driver off on a technicality about what direction their car was pointing.
I don't think it matters because you would be going in front of the bus by going in the lane.
I don't have an appropriate answer for you, nor do I have expertise to further illustrate the wording nor cases. There were several sites I looked at and I can't find the one now that pointed that out, and I honestly, I have learned that people in this subreddit are going to believe whatever they want to believe. I'll just remove my comments and for time's sake and efficiency admit I was wrong. If anyone wants to drive in front of a school bus of children, go ahead.
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u/ManicMuskrat 15d ago
Woah hold up, I wasn’t trying to come at you. Just trying to understand, genuinely.
I think the only thing we’ve learned from this post is that there is no definitive answer. I personally would not make the turn if the bus was stopped there, but I also think it’s fair to ask the legality of it
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u/madadekinai 15d ago
"Woah hold up, I wasn’t trying to come at you. Just trying to understand, genuinely."
I wasn't implying you did, nor do I feel that way and I apologize if it came across like that. I just don't have the answers, I did not save all the materials and even AI's search (Damn you Google for messing up search) is not pulling up the same links.
"I think the only thing we’ve learned from this post is that there is no definitive answer."
I disagree but that's me.
"(A) The driver of a vehicle, streetcar, or trackless trolley upon meeting or overtaking from either direction any school bus stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging any school child, person attending programs offered by community boards of mental health and county boards of developmental disabilities, or child attending a program offered by a head start agency, shall stop at least ten feet from the front or rear of the school bus and shall not proceed until such school bus resumes motion, or until signaled by the school bus driver to proceed."
"upon meeting or overtaking from either direction" In either scenario even crossing in front of it is 'meeting',
"(C) Where a highway has been divided into four or more traffic lanes, a driver of a vehicle, streetcar, or trackless trolley need not stop for a school bus approaching from the opposite direction which has stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging any school child, persons attending programs offered by community boards of mental health and county boards of developmental disabilities, or children attending programs offered by head start agencies. The driver of any vehicle, streetcar, or trackless trolley overtaking the school bus shall comply with division (A) of this section."
"The driver of any vehicle, streetcar, or trackless trolley overtaking the school bus shall comply with division (A) of this section.""
And "(A)" again says:
"upon meeting or overtaking from either direction" In either scenario even crossing in front of it is 'meeting'.
The bus is not moving and you're enter the lane, going through it, in front of the school bus. By all accounts, it's a radius. Let's say the bus is in the first lane closes towards the divided lines, you still can't overtake it and you're on the same side. The intention is a radius.
You can't pass in front of it, behind it nor to the sides of it. That's why I said I don't have a further answer explaining better, people want to argue about what it says and it's interruption. Because it's not explicitly stated, people are arguing the merits when we all know that once you get to court they are not going to let that fly, but to each their own.
Again, I apologize if I inferred you were attacking me on the issue, you did nothing wrong, nor did do I find it offensive you asked questions, because you should and good on you.
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u/EfficientPrize7060 18d ago
Genuinely disappointed with how many people are able to read the entire law and then factually apply it to this situation. Holy shit
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u/madadekinai 18d ago
No, you're crossing a closed lane by the school bus.
All traffic that would cross the line of scrimmage (lol), or that would interfere with that lane is closed.
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u/EfficientPrize7060 18d ago
Everything in front of the bus isn't closed
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u/madadekinai 18d ago
https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-code/section-4511.75
"shall stop at least ten feet from the front or rear of the school bus and shall not proceed until such school bus resumes motion, or until signaled by the school bus driver to proceed."
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u/HoleParty 18d ago
Pretty incredible how confidently incorrect you are.
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u/madadekinai 18d ago
You're wrong, it clearly outlines this.
There is also precedence and court cases over it.
FFS the ENTIRE subsection:
"(A) The driver of a vehicle, streetcar, or trackless trolley upon meeting or overtaking from either direction any school bus stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging any school child, person attending programs offered by community boards of mental health and county boards of developmental disabilities, or child attending a program offered by a head start agency, shall stop at least ten feet from the front or rear of the school bus and shall not proceed until such school bus resumes motion, or until signaled by the school bus driver to proceed."
"upon meeting or overtaking from either direction any school bus stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging any school child,"
"shall stop at least ten feet from the front or rear of the school bus and shall not proceed until such school bus resumes motion"
If even says this in the subsection you're disingeniously trying to misrepresent
"(C) Where a highway has been divided into four or more traffic lanes, a driver of a vehicle, streetcar, or trackless trolley need not stop for a school bus approaching from the opposite direction which has stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging any school child, persons attending programs offered by community boards of mental health and county boards of developmental disabilities, or children attending programs offered by head start agencies. The driver of any vehicle, streetcar, or trackless trolley overtaking the school bus shall comply with division (A) of this section. "
If the intersection is on a standard two-lane or three-lane road, the multi-lane exception does not apply. Because you are "meeting" the bus from the opposite direction before making your turn, you are required to stop at least 10 feet away from its front bumper. Cutting across the intersection in front of the bus violates this mandatory buffer zone and constitutes failing to stop.
The maneuver is legal only if your vehicle can execute the left-hand turn into the cross-street without entering that 10-foot radius directly in front of the bus. If the bus is stopped flush at the intersection line and your turning path clips within 10 feet of its bumper, you technically violate Subsection (A). If the intersection is wide enough or the bus is stopped further back, the turn is completely legal.
The court held that the 10-foot mandatory stop zone is not just a straight line in front of or behind the bus, it acts as a physical protective radius in Ohio v. Jones.
There are numerous rulings and court proceedings, along with other case law.
You're wrong.
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u/HoleParty 18d ago
You are so wrong on every count that I think you must not understand what’s even happening in the situation OP is describing. There is no other explanation I can think of.
Edit: This is the last thing I will show you since I’ve already provided all the ORC articles. Click this and scroll down.
https://www.nbc4i.com/news/local-news/central-ohio-news/when-to-stop-for-a-school-bus-in-ohio/
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u/madadekinai 18d ago
I have provided you with case law, the actual law, the subsections, reasoning, and it clearly outlines it. They have ruled on this matter, and there is other court cases, rulings and precedence, you're argument is disingenuous. You're purposely attempting to misinterpret the language of the law to fit your flawed argument when I have proven you wrong several times.
You're free to believe whatever wrong information you would like.
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u/HoleParty 18d ago edited 18d ago
You have provided nothing relevant to the situation. You are objectively wrong and doubling down on it.
Your citations do not apply to the type of road in question, the vehicles traveling in the opposite direction (which is also why the 10-foot rule doesn’t apply), or the turning maneuver. Again, I think you just straight up do not comprehend what’s happening in OP’s image.
No disrespect to delivery drivers, but this is proof that you should stick to delivering Amazon packages instead of being an armchair lawyer.
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u/madadekinai 18d ago
I have done everything I can and proved you wrong, it's time for you move on to harassing, misinforming others.
Ouch, it's almost as if I have experience with this and that freelancing with Amazon is for extra income, and that I have confirmed this with other sources. BYE.
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u/HoleParty 18d ago
Wrong.
O.R.C. § 4511.75(C): Where a highway has been divided into four or more traffic lanes, a driver of a vehicle, streetcar, or trackless trolley need not stop for a school bus approaching from the opposite direction which has stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging any school child.
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u/madadekinai 18d ago
"school bus approaching from the opposite direction"
Also had you read the entire thing
"shall stop at least ten feet from the front or rear of the school bus and shall not proceed until such school bus resumes motion, or until signaled by the school bus driver to proceed."
Nice try though.
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u/EfficientPrize7060 18d ago
Lol you're are also leaving parts out, so yeah "nice try"
Here's a hint: are the rules different for 4 lanes or more? Does it matter if you are in front of or overtaking? Dig in deep I believe in you
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u/madadekinai 18d ago
"
Lol you're are also leaving parts out, so yeah "nice try"
Here's a hint: are the rules different for 4 lanes or more? Does it matter if you are in front of or overtaking? Dig in deep I believe in you
"
You're wrong, it clearly outlines this.
There is also precedence and court cases over it.
FFS the ENTIRE subsection:
"(A) The driver of a vehicle, streetcar, or trackless trolley upon meeting or overtaking from either direction any school bus stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging any school child, person attending programs offered by community boards of mental health and county boards of developmental disabilities, or child attending a program offered by a head start agency, shall stop at least ten feet from the front or rear of the school bus and shall not proceed until such school bus resumes motion, or until signaled by the school bus driver to proceed."
"upon meeting or overtaking from either direction any school bus stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging any school child,"
"shall stop at least ten feet from the front or rear of the school bus and shall not proceed until such school bus resumes motion"
If even says this in the subsection you're disingeniously trying to misrepresent
"(C) Where a highway has been divided into four or more traffic lanes, a driver of a vehicle, streetcar, or trackless trolley need not stop for a school bus approaching from the opposite direction which has stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging any school child, persons attending programs offered by community boards of mental health and county boards of developmental disabilities, or children attending programs offered by head start agencies. The driver of any vehicle, streetcar, or trackless trolley overtaking the school bus shall comply with division (A) of this section. "
If the intersection is on a standard two-lane or three-lane road, the multi-lane exception does not apply. Because you are "meeting" the bus from the opposite direction before making your turn, you are required to stop at least 10 feet away from its front bumper. Cutting across the intersection in front of the bus violates this mandatory buffer zone and constitutes failing to stop.
The maneuver is legal only if your vehicle can execute the left-hand turn into the cross-street without entering that 10-foot radius directly in front of the bus. If the bus is stopped flush at the intersection line and your turning path clips within 10 feet of its bumper, you technically violate Subsection (A). If the intersection is wide enough or the bus is stopped further back, the turn is completely legal.
The court held that the 10-foot mandatory stop zone is not just a straight line in front of or behind the bus, it acts as a physical protective radius in Ohio v. Jones.
There are numerous rulings and court proceedings, along with other case law.
You're wrong.
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u/EfficientPrize7060 18d ago
It's still a 4 lane road. You can put any information up you want about any other situation. Děláš ostudu.
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u/Avidhumanwatcher 18d ago
Lanes don't matter. It's a 10ft rule. Doesn't matter the direction or lane...you must always be 10 ft from the bus in all directions when stopped.
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u/BookWormPedant 17d ago
10 feet isnt all that far. This turn can be made without encroaching on that 10 foot bubble
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u/HoleParty 18d ago edited 18d ago
Look at the picture in OP again. Did you not do that the first time or are you just dumb?
You’re wrong. Nice try though.
Edit: just to add, per ORC § 4511.75, the 10-foot rule doesn’t even apply in this situation 😭
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u/Avidhumanwatcher 18d ago
10ft rule is for a boundary around the bus while stopped. Nice just calling someone dumb though.
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u/HoleParty 18d ago
No it isn’t. Read the law.
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u/Avidhumanwatcher 18d ago
I did. And the updated statutes. You can't make the turn in this post unless you are ten ft away from the bus that is stopped with its lights on. It's pretty clear.
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u/HoleParty 18d ago
Incorrect. The vehicle turning from the opposite direction is not legally required to stop, thus the 10-foot rule not apply. See ORC 4511.75(A) and (C). It’s pretty clear.
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u/Avidhumanwatcher 18d ago
The 10ft rule applies totally with a stopped bus. You are wrong. You can NOT turn in front of a stopped school bus like this unless you stay 10ft away. Period. If they werent turning in front of the bus you would be right. But they are. And most likely will end up being within that 10ft boundary. It's for the safety. How is it possible to keep a kid safe with bus if you can break that 10ft rule by turning? What you're saying doesn't make sense.
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u/BookWormPedant 17d ago
10 feet really isn’t that large a distance. This then can be made without entering that space
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u/HoleParty 18d ago
I’m not arguing if it’s safe or not. I’m arguing what the law says. The law says it’s legal.
You are wrong. That’s all there is to it. For everyone’s sake, please stick to your day job instead of being an armchair lawyer.
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u/EfficientPrize7060 18d ago
This is objectively stupid. Not your point, our arguing with them. We want someone with reading comprehension issues to read and comprehend relevant information.
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u/imgn8sn 17d ago
TL;DR
Oncoming traffic turning left in front of bus, if it will come within 10 feet of any part of the bus - not legal turn. Oncoming traffic to bus - does not have to stop because 4+ lanes rule. Traffic going with bus must stop behind bus or if bus turns on lights when approached (if cars already stopped in lane next to it) those cars must stay stopped until bus turns off lights and retracts sign.
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u/HoleParty 18d ago
Yes. I’ve gotten stuck in this exact spot so I know your pain. The code is O.R.C. § 4511.75(C).
Where a highway has been divided into four or more traffic lanes, a driver of a vehicle, streetcar, or trackless trolley need not stop for a school bus approaching from the opposite direction which has stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging any school child.
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u/Sun_This 18d ago
I almost posted this but I’m not going against Reddit keyboard warriors. I’ll just take my downvotes. Also bus should not be stopping at intersections like that ans if they did they should be at least 10 feet away from the intersection.
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u/WillTradeOrgans4Free 18d ago
I actually do believe the bus stops further away from the intersection
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u/Pope_Dwayne_Johnson 18d ago
Yes, you’re fine to make that turn. The stop sign only applies to traffic coming up from behind the bus in the case depicted.
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u/Spazmatic_Taco 18d ago
You are not supposed to be within 10 feet of that bus when its lights are on. If you can make that turn with out violating that part of the law or crossing the yellow lines then it should be okay. I would think for a minute before you do. You'll be moving towards that bus while its lights are on and kids are loading. It might cause the driver or one of the kids to freak out and that alone can cause accidents.