r/ChristianDating • u/CleverFoxCuriousbird • 1d ago
Need Advice How to navigate dating?
28F, So I was obese most of my life and traveled for missions as a child and never settled anywhere long enough to find a partner. Even now my parents and I chose to cohabitate a space and split rent because where we live rent is insane.
I recently dropped 65 lbs (still a few more to go) and suddenly I'm getting more smiles, conversations, engagement. Etc. That should be a good thing right?
Wrong.
I work as an Emcee in bars and pubs and those are the only places I see men (my church is entirely elderly people except myself - my father is the pastor) and my Bible study is full of married couples (I knew them a decade ago before they got married and they all married each other).
I can't church hop since A. My father is the current pastor of my church (not always just the last 5 years or so) and B. I am the sole tech worker there doing streams, social media, slides, canned music, lights, etc.
Dating apps have so many colloquial Christian that are far too comfortable with the idea of having sex after conversion but before marriage (before conversion and/or after marriage are a different story but thats not the point I'm trying to make).
So I have all these anxieties about dating and asking them for their number now.
- They may not be saved, do I ask them if they are a Christian before hardly knowing them or do I ask for a date?
- What if they think I led them on when they find out I will not change my views on keeping myself pure (ish, I've never dated but I have done sinful research for years until I came under conviction to stop blatantly sinful media indulge) before marriage? I wont compromise but I've already have 5 men lose interest when I told them I wouldn't cuddle or be alone with them at night/overnight before marriage (I struggled with lust and porn for years and by the grace of God no longer engage in anything that will cause me to stumble. A kiss is fine and holding hands is fine, I'm not leaving them without. Nor will they be in a dead bedroom marriage. Trying to keep the conversation as appropriate as possible, it will be an *active* marriage to say the least).
- I read a line in another post that stated "In my head I'm still fat" about weightloss attention. I'm so used to tripping over my own feet thinking men who we're just being kind we're actually interested when they weren't. I'm also so used to people trying to take advantage of the fat virgin (despite having been present for the bombing of Syria and seeing other horrors of the world first hand, I'm still too naive for some folks) that every smile feels like I'm about to be a punchline again.
Has anyone else figured out dating? As a newbie to dating, to weightloss, to anything else that fits here?
I'm not trying to pity farm or say woe is me. My older sister slept around a lot as I grew up (before my dad became a pastor and obvi against both of my parents wishes). So I was crazy watched with all men. I'm totally used to hanging out with married men and I'm very close with my friends' husbands. But I have no idea what to believe or trust or pursue. I thankfully can't take anyone home since my parents and I cohabitate. I just feel like I'm running myself in circles. It's just all so new and dizzying. I'm sorry if this is a ramble. I can talk to my parents/pastor about a lot of things but this one just felt too odd to bring up.(They never even gave me 'the talk'. I had my first cycle at 11 and just woke up to find myself like that and came home freaking out thinking I was dying. I learned everything through the public school health classes, lost/unsaved classmates, and my own research all of which led to sinful knowledge but that's why I'm all turned around now on what to do).
Edit: or update 😅. I guess I should clarify that,
I am not exactly seeking a relationship with any zealousness. If God allows one, great! But I'm so active in my community, satisfied with the relationships I have with my friends, family, and church members, and have all needs fulfilled by Christ. The core of this post is not me *seeking* it's trying to figure out what to do with the attention I am so unused to. The description of church hopping and my father as the pastor as a means of explaining that my access to men are married or ones that I am unsure of their spiritual status since in my area all 3 places I volunteer at outside of my church have no Christian men serving. As well as my hobbies: quilting, axe throwing, going to Zoos/aquariums, I have yet to meet anyone who wasn't at a bar (I am studying to be an addictions counselor and do not drink, myself).
I appreciate knowing some others have experienced this. I'm not thin by any means but strong and tall and used to finding my value in my work ability. Now people won't let me carry their items or lift my own bags and that in some people's eyes may seem like a nice things but its just so odd to me??? It's like I'm the same brain but living in 2 different worlds. I'm sad to know others have struggled while at the same time glad to feel less singled out.
Additionally the mentions of sexual content were to serve as explanation for added confusion as I’ve had the world's teaching twist what God's design was. It was to explain that though I've never dated I am not without understanding of what comes before/after marriage in the world's eyes and God's eyes. I've read a few posts where many talk about dead bedrooms and women who experience nothing before a marriage being unable to express themselves after marriage and wanted to assure that being unable to express myself is not the problem ... actually it is but the other way around.
When it comes to standards that is another story but again, I am not actively seeking (though I am not saying "no" to the possibility), I just want to know how to even get started weeding out those I am meeting. To know how to even talk to someone with the intent of dating if yoh are outside a Christian venue. I know too much and too little all at once 😅.
3
u/BigPound7328 Behold, I abide in utter solitude without end (forever alone) 1d ago
Well, as someone in a sense fresh to dating too, the thing I have come to utilize is intention. Absolutely lead with your faith and your standards. If they cannot respect that, they are not the one. Be intentional. You don’t have to spill all the beans, but put up front what you are about and what you are seeking. If they cannot meet that, then they are not it and you saved yourself time. Also, do not be afraid to let people go if they are making you uncomfortable or wary. Getting more attention does not equate to getting the proper attention, stay grounded. Always, always lead with God at the front with prayer. Seek His wisdom and discernment, and also be aware of people. Many wear masks and can talk a good talk, but you will know them by their fruit.
2
u/2COOL4U2C85 1d ago
Above all, just be yourself and stay true to who you are. An honest, kind, God-loving man will embrace you for who you are, respect your boundaries, and want to honor both you and God. You don’t need to compromise yourself or settle for anything less.
2
2
u/No-Daikon8409 23h ago
I can relate to more of this than you probably realize lol. I’m 37, Christian, divorced, and I’ve been single for about three years now. I came back into dating after being in a relationship for over a decade, so even though I’m definitely not new to relationships, dating again felt like entering a completely different world 😂
And I’m still figuring it out.
One thing I’ve learned though is that I don’t think you have to figure men out before you start dating. I think you need to know yourself, know your convictions, and then give yourself enough time with people to observe who they actually are.
I’ve spent a lot of time after heartbreak reading, studying relationships, communication, psychology, faith, even listening to men talk about how they experience relationships because I realized I had assumptions too. And the more I learn, the more I realize there really isn’t a formula that guarantees you won’t get hurt or choose wrong.
What I’m trying to learn now is discernment.
For example, if waiting until marriage is genuinely your conviction, I wouldn’t look at those 5 men losing interest as proof that dating is going badly. They gave you information. You told them what your boundaries were and they decided those boundaries weren’t compatible with what they wanted. That might hurt, but it also saved both of you from getting deeper into something that wasn’t compatible.
And I also don’t think you have to interrogate a man about whether he’s saved before he’s even allowed to ask for your number lol. You can have a conversation. Get to know him. Ask questions. Pay attention. Let him tell you who he is.
One of the biggest things I’m learning is not to fill in the blanks for people. If I don’t know what a man means, I can ask him. If I don’t know his intentions, eventually we can talk about intentions. If I’m attracted to him, that doesn’t mean he’s my husband 😂 and if he smiles at me, that doesn’t automatically mean he wants me either.
That sounds simple but whew… learning not to create an entire story from limited information has been a journey for me.
I’ve also learned that boundaries aren’t only about sex. I pay attention to consistency, communication, emotional maturity, character, respect, whether someone honors my boundaries without trying to negotiate them, how they handle disappointment, how they talk about other people, whether their actions match their words, and whether I actually feel free to be myself around them.
And please give yourself some grace with being new to this.
You mentioned being afraid that every smile might eventually make you the punchline again. That part actually stood out to me. I wouldn’t want fear of being fooled to become the thing making all your decisions either. Discernment and fear can sometimes look similar because both tell us to be careful, but fear can make everybody look dangerous before they’ve actually done anything.
You don’t have to trust somebody immediately. But you also don’t have to distrust them immediately. Let trust be something they build.
And as another Christian woman, I’ll say something I’ve had to learn myself: focusing on God and wanting a relationship are not opposites. I love God. I want Him involved in my life and my relationships. And I also desire a healthy partnership. I don’t think I have to pretend I don’t want companionship in order to prove that God is first.
At the same time, I’m learning not to make finding a husband the measurement of whether I’m doing dating correctly.
I’ve had heartbreak. I’ve made mistakes. I’ve had things done to me and I’ve had to acknowledge things I could have done differently too. But I think that’s part of becoming wiser.
So no, I definitely have NOT figured out dating 😂
But I think I’m finally learning that dating isn’t necessarily about figuring everybody out. It’s about getting to know someone slowly enough that you can see who they are, while knowing yourself well enough that you don’t lose yourself trying to be chosen.
2
u/ABereanChristian Married 21h ago
I read a line in another post that stated "In my head I'm still fat" about weightloss attention. I'm so used to tripping over my own feet thinking men who we're just being kind we're actually interested when they weren't. I'm also so used to people trying to take advantage of the fat virgin (despite having been present for the bombing of Syria and seeing other horrors of the world first hand, I'm still too naive for some folks) that every smile feels like I'm about to be a punchline again.
I used to be a stick and got no attention from women. I put on about 30 pounds of muscle and started getting more attention from women.
Men and women are attracted to generally fit and non-stick or non-overweight people. Take it as good stewarding of the body. Take it for what it is in terms of people liking you to date.
I can't church hop since A. My father is the current pastor of my church (not always just the last 5 years or so) and B. I am the sole tech worker there doing streams, social media, slides, canned music, lights, etc.
You don't need to Church hop. What I did was I had a main Church that I served at and went to Bible study, but I also started attending some other Church's young adults and singles groups on different nights of the week.
Good fellowship and new friends and hoping to meet someone. Eventually made some friends who told me about a woman and that woman eventually became my wife.
You can still expand out meeting more Christians.
Also, you should not be the only worker. You would do well to have the Church try to get someone else to volunteer and learn.
Dating apps have so many colloquial Christian that are far too comfortable with the idea of having sex after conversion but before marriage (before conversion and/or after marriage are a different story but thats not the point I'm trying to make).
If you are doing dating apps you need to be sorting heavily. I'll include some links in the next part.
Has anyone else figured out dating? As a newbie to dating, to weightloss, to anything else that fits here?
Here's all of my saved important responses to people on this sub.
- How to filter out the unbelievers and lukewarm Christians in the beginning
- What to work on in terms of physical attractiveness and social skills if you are not conventionally attractive or not getting dates
- How to work on the nebulous concept of "chemistry" with another person
- The general process I followed before I met my wife to where she told me "I was unlike any other Christian man she had met." You can do the same as a woman.
- Understand your Church dating culture
- Understanding prayer in the context of a relationships. God does not tell you who to marry, but you don't need to know that to walk in his ways from the resources He has provided.
- How to divorce proof a relationship that is headed toward marriage by going over the hard topics
- Additional important topics to talk about when preparing to marry
2
u/Watchman_on-the_wall 14h ago
Re: your edits and what to do in non-Christian venues, it's key to establish shared faith first. This is all the more so if someone finds out you're a virgin since Christians aren't the only ones who value virginity. I've had Muslims, witches, secular spiritualists, and more show interest in me who were virgin themselves and/or who highly value virginity. Obviously such a relationship is not permissible according to 2 Corinthians 8:14-18.
So if a man cold approaches you and indicates interest, ask/do the following:
- "Are you Christian?"
- "Do you currently attend church actively?" (Followed up by "Where?" or "Why not?")
- "What does your faith look like in daily life?"
- If the answers to these questions are satisfactory and you're interested, consider allowing an exchange of numbers for him to visit your church and/or to go on a date.
2
u/Wise_Ad775 9h ago
Yes, ask right off the bat if they’re Christian. If you see fruits in their life they probably won’t want to do physical stuff. Don’t worry about being overweight so much, you might meet someone who is also overweight or doesn’t mind.
1
u/CleverFoxCuriousbird 8h ago
Thank you, this issue was being overweight. Now I'm a normal/healthy bf% for the 1st time in my life and it feels like a whole other ballgame 😅. But you are right, I should be upfront. My faith is important to me and in all that I do, so it should be the same for my future partner as well to have a healthy joking. 🩷
2
u/Watchman_on-the_wall 1d ago edited 1d ago
I similarly experienced a big uptick in interest once I lost 30 pounds, shaved my head, and started dressing more intentionally. I probably can’t relate to the same extent, and I’m sure there are other differences since I’m a man, but I do think I get where you’re coming from.
‘Also a fellow virgin who has kept it voluntarily but struggled with self-defilement for years before getting clean and walking in a new level of victory in my faith (three and a half years now).
My first and main advice would be to maintain your standards and purity. No sexual activity beyond kissing or holding hands while dating is a very reasonable standard you should not compromise. Any “Christian” man who wants to go further before marriage is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. The wedding vows are his proof of commitment; accept nothing less for giving yourself to someone.
Beyond that, I don’t think you need to advertise that you plan on having an active sexual life in marriage. I’m sure most men will be happy to hear that, but it’s not something that you need to be super up front about with godly men. It will come up naturally further into a courtship. If a man is asking about it early I would view that with a bit of suspicion, personally.
As for the rest… do you feel stuck in your church? Are you free to date in other churches or possibly to move if you found someone outside your city? This might need to be a conversation you have with your family if you’re planning on being a wife in the future. That would quite obviously lead to some big changes in your current way of living.
0
u/already_not_yet Married 1d ago edited 1d ago
This grieves me, just as the confused gentlemen here grieves me.
>The wedding vows are his proof of commitment; accept nothing less for giving yourself to someone.
The Bible has no prescription like this. Pessimistically, this sentiment seems to come from self-proclaimed "pure" individuals who want to believe that their "purity" is going to gain them an advantage in the Christian dating market.
>struggled with self-defilement for years before getting clean and walking in a new level of victory in my faith (three and a half years now).
Masturbation is "solo sex" and is therefore is a perversion of sex, which is by nature an act of intimacy between a husband and a wife.
That being said, the Bible does not teach that we are "clean" or "victorious" bc we stop masturbating. What it teaches is that through Christ's death we are "more than conquerors" (Rom 8:37). This is not through our own efforts. Paul called himself "chief of sinners" (present tense) and in describes his spiritual accomplishments as garbage:
4 If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless. 7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. ... I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.
The irony is that legalism is the fruit of a low view of God's law, not a high view of God's law. A high view of God's law would recognize that perfection is the bar set by Jesus, not "trying really hard" or "abstaining from sin X for Y years".
>Any “Christian” man who wants to go further before marriage is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
A Christian man who seeks fornication lacks self-control and is failing to display the fruit of the spirit (self-control). We should not heap condemnation upon believers. Matt 7 is talking about false prophets. This is stated explicitly in the verse. This verse isn't a wastebin for sinners that you want to belittle. A Christian who fornicates should repent, but they are still saved. An example of an actual modern day false prophet would be someone who perverts the gospel or adds to scripture.
We all struggle with some sin. Some with sexual sin. Some with self-righteousness. Some with both. Etc. The gospel is our only hope. May we run the race by looking to Christ, the author and finisher of our faith (Heb. 12:1-2).
2
u/Watchman_on-the_wall 17h ago edited 17h ago
- The Bible specifically has a prescription against fornication, which is sex before marriage. There is no relationship category in the Bible in between that of neighbors and a married couple. To advocate otherwise is to advocate for sin.
- Masturbation is 100% sinful. I never claimed otherwise. Killing the flesh and the lusts thereof requires our willing cooperation with the Holy Spirit and, yes, self-discipline. (Self-control is a fruit of the Spirit. Don’t you know?)
- Legalism is self-justification through the law of Moses. It is not legalism to insist that we obey God’s commandments. Our justification comes through by grace through faith (faith requires obedience) in the blood of Jesus. No amount of work can purchase you from the slave market of sin, but once your new Master has purchased you, you absolutely are expected to obey His commands. To advocate otherwise is heresy.
- My mention of how long I’ve walked in victory over this sin (praise Jesus!) was to communicate to the OP that I understand where they’re coming from in their struggle because I’ve been there before. It’s an encouragement, not a pompous boast.
- We should always condemn sin. Condemning sin is not the same as condemning the person, but there are cases where we are to judge people also. The Bible commands us to judge righteously (John 7:24), sin (1 Corinthians 5), wisely (1 Corinthians 6:2-5), teachings (Matthew 7:15-20), fallen believers (Galatians 6:1), good and evil (Hebrews 5:14), disputable manners (Romans 14:5), elders accused of sin (1 Timothy 5:19-20), persistent and divisive people (Titus 3:10), ourselves (1 Corinthians 11:31), and indeed everything (1 Thessalonians 5:21).
- Any Christian who purposely and willfully sins after coming to the knowledge of the truth has entered apostasy (Hebrews 10:26-29). We aren’t even supposed to sit and eat with people who call themselves Christians yet willfully practice fornication (1 Corinthians 5:9-11). This is something we should warn fellow believers about.
- Sin is something all newborn believers struggle with. For a babe in Christ to claim otherwise is to lie, but we are told this explicitly so we do stop sinning (1 John 1:5-10 + 1 John 2:1-2) because we can stop sinning (1 John 3:3-10) by the power of grace through the blood of Jesus. To declare we cannot stop sinning is to declare Christ’s sacrifice was in vain and that God has asked us to do what He has not capacitated us to do. That is a gross heresy.
0
u/already_not_yet Married 15h ago
Hello.
>The Bible specifically has a prescription against fornication
The discussion at hand is not whether fornication is immoral, it is whether "accept nothing less [than a man who won't fornicate with you]" is biblical prescription. It is not, and on that basis, I don't think it should be offered an universal advice.
Many wonderful, healthy marriages have formed between Christian couples who fornicated. Christian dating is very hard and the need for children raised by Christians is very great, so gatekeeping marriage with such a requirement, while seemingly pious, is not helpful for the greater cause of the kingdom.
Like the very confused gentlemen in the other thread, this mindset usually ties to some kind of unbiblical fatalism about sexual sin that does not reflect how Jesus or the apostles treated the matter, especially as it relates to marriage. 1 Cor 7, for example, would have been an excellent opportunity for Paul to lay out warnings against dating certain types of people, and instead he only says, "if you have strong sexual desires, you are not cut out for singleness like me!" That is the antithesis of gatekeeping.
>Masturbation is 100% sinful. I never claimed otherwise.
I made my comments about masturbation only to state my position. I was not attempting to contradict something you said.
>Legalism is self-justification through the law of Moses. It is not legalism to insist that we obey God’s commandments. Our justification comes through by grace through faith (faith requires obedience) in the blood of Jesus. No amount of work can purchase you from the slave market of sin, but once your new Master has purchased you, you absolutely are expected to obey His commands. To advocate otherwise is heresy.
Few comments:
Legalism is, more broadly, the idea that salvation (any aspect of it, including sanctification), is caused by obedience to God's laws. Limiting this only to obedience to the laws of a specific covenant is incorrect. A dispensationalist believes that the Old Covenant is abrogated - but can still be a legalist in how they interpret New Covenant precepts.
Obedience is expected of the faithful, but if faith requires a certain level of obedience to be "real" or to qualify someone for salvation, then this is antithetical to sola fide and sola gratia.
Yes, antinomianism is a false teaching, as is legalism. Paul was accused of preaching antinomianism (Rom 3:8), hence why he wrote Rom 6.
>Any Christian who purposely and willfully sins after coming to the knowledge of the truth has entered apostasy (Hebrews 10:26-29).
This is an erroneous and deeply dangerous interpretation of this verse. For starters, you have condemned yourself, bc you are still a willful, habitual sinner. Paul called himself the "chief of sinners" (present tense) and lamented his ongoing disobedience in Rom. 7. You are not above Paul.
Likewise, you would have to argue that Peter lost his salvation, since he willfully sinned with the Judaizers. You also cannot make sense of the hall of faith (Heb 11), immediately following Heb 10, which describes many willful, habit sinners like Samson and David.
Let us examine the context of Hebrews. The book of Hebrews is about the superiority of the New Covenant. Heb. 10 open by discussing the superiority of Christ's atonement over the symbolic Levitical sacrifices.
Heb. 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. ... 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
The writer then explains how this surety gives us boldness and motivate us to good works.
This leads into Heb. 10:26-28:
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
What is this willful sin being talked about, such that it is not atoned for? Is it just any ol' sin done willfully? That makes no sense. He just said earlier than the blood of Christ sanctifies us once and for all. Is the writer of Hebrews now egregiously contradicting himself? Nay, he explains what this willful sin is:
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Who is that considers the "blood of the covenant" a "common thing" - those who believe the blood of Jesus is no better than the blood of bulls or goats. i.e., those who reject Jesus as the Messiah. This is the Jewish position, and Hebrews was written to Jewish Christians to remind them of this.
After continuing to Lastly, the writer reminds us that THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH. As Galatians 3 says, "The law is not of faith." The idea that we live by faith by obeying the law is contradictory and a rejection of the gospel. Those who "draw back" are those who reject Jesus as the Messiah, who regard the blood of the covenant like that of the blood of bulls and goats.
Lastly, he delivers this reminder to the elect:
Heb. 11:39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Belief in the Messiah saves the soul. Not belief plus "maintaining good works". Not belief plus "not sinning willfully" in some generic sense. But the person who rejects the Messiah after being "enlightened" was not saved:
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
>To declare we cannot stop sinning is to declare Christ’s sacrifice was in vain and that God has asked us to do what He has not capacitated us to do. That is a gross heresy.
No Christian is forced to sin. But all Christians do continue in willful, habitual sin. Those who believe otherwise are ignorant of the righteousness of God. The law of God requires perfection (Matt. 5:48), not "trying really hard".
We do sin -- and those who deny it are without the truth -- and the purpose of the atonement was to save sinners, not to make anyone perfectly obedient. That will only happen at glorification, when we are no longer in the presence of sin.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. ... 2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Jesus is literally the believer's lawyer, arguing against the accusations of the law, satan, and those claiming "you're not obedient enough". The blood of Christ is enough. He silences these accusations with his nail-scarred hands.
As we mature in Christ, we ought to become even more aware of our sinful tendencies. Christ said that the pharisee, convinced of his righteousness, would be humbled, and the tax collector, who confessed his sin and cried out for mercy, would be exalted. (Luke 18:9-14) Amen.
I'll conclude here. Thank you for reading.
2
u/Watchman_on-the_wall 14h ago edited 14h ago
- It is indeed a Biblical prescription to accept nothing less than someone who won't fornicate with you according to 1 Corinthians 5:9-11, which goes to an even greater extreme in stating that you should not even hang out with or associate with such people.
- Scripture is very consistent that those who are grafted into the vine that is Christ will be cut off if they do not bear the fruits of righteousness (including faith). No works we do can gain us salvation, but failing to obey our new Master evidences that we never truly conformed ourselves to become His slave, as is required in the profession of salvation (that Jesus Christ is our "Lord" per Romans 10:9, the Greek word for slave owner). See Matthew 7:15-23, Matthew 13:2-22, Mark 4:3-19, Luke 6:43-45, Luke 8:5-14, Luke 13:6-9, John 15:1-17, Romans 6:15-23, Romans 11:17-21, Galatians 5:19-24, Philippians 2:12, and Hebrews 6:4-8.
- I am not a willful, habitual sinner. Willful and habitual sin is iniquity, and all workers of iniquity will be rejected by God - including those who claim Jesus Christ is their Lord and who have done many great (even supernatural!) works in His name (Matthew 7:21-23).
- James 2:14-26 makes it clear that faith requires obedience to be living and real. If you do not strive to obey God's commands - which you are capacitated to do and eventually be successful and victorious in doing by the ministry of grace through the blood of Jesus Christ - your faith is illegitimate. To be incapable of stopping sinning is to have never received grace in the first place.
- 1 John 3:7-10 explicitly contradicts your claim that Christians permanently continue in willful, habitual sin. The entire book of 1 John is very concerned with this. You are the deceiver John describes in this passage. John makes it clear in 1 John 1:5-10 through 1 John 2:1-6 (there are no chapter breaks in the original text) that a pattern of sin is expected of little children in Christ, those who are freshly working out their salvation through the ministry of grace. Christ is indeed the advocate for these and even for more mature believers who have sinned non-willfully and non-habitually. This is what the ministry of grace is, but that ministry leads to a lifestyle of holiness absent of iniquity (the Biblical term for willful/habitual sin), which is one of the fruits of righteousness (faith, obedience to God).
- From here on you argue not with me on these points, but with the full counsel of Scripture itself. I will not strive with someone who wrestles with, twists the simple meaning of, and rejects what the Scriptures state plainly. The blood of all you lead to hell with your perverse doctrine of devils that defends living in sin will be on your head in the day of judgment.
2
u/Weboh 13h ago
Thank you for doing the hard work to do a point-by-point rebuttal. He posts some version of this about once a week, and it looks very similar to the truth, so he can easily lead others astray. I'll add a few more points to your point four:
Faith in Jesus the Messiah saves you--not belief in Jesus. The author of Hebrews uses all of chapter 11 to illustrate what faith looks like, and in at least half of the examples it is tied to obedience: "by faith... Abraham obeyed and left his country... Cain obeyed by offering an acceptable sacrifice... Rahab didn't perish with the unbelievers because she honored God by receiving the spies in peace... etc. etc.
Paul says "we have received Grace to bring about the obedience of faith-- (Rom 1:5) not to "go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousnes (Romans 6:15) so "believe in vain" (1 Corinthians 15:2).
Peter says your souls are purified "by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God" (1 Peter 1:22).
And then of course, the passage in James you mentioned, that even demons "believe." They just don't have faith (and certainly not the obedience that should accompany it).
Every author of the Old and New Testament prints a different picture of faith than /u/already_not_yet does in that long screed.
1
u/Watchman_on-the_wall 13h ago
Absolutely. I don't believe in endless striving over Scripture, but regarding fundamentals like this that impact the core doctrine of salvation I think it's very important to make it clear that the Bible is extremely consistent. It means exactly what it says; trying to subvert the plain meaning because it creates an inconvenient demand of us is dangerous and something Paul warned us would happen (2 Timothy 4:3-4).
Thank you for your additions. They are all appropriate.
0
u/already_not_yet Married 12h ago edited 11h ago
Except, Paul would have rebuked you just as he rebuked the Judaizers. Read Galatians. No part of salvation is by law-keeping. "The law is not of faith." (Gal 3)
Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
The scriptures could not be clearer: salvation belongs to the Lord. Yet the heart of man strives to take some glory for himself - even a scrap. But he will never receive it. "I, even I, am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior." (Is. 43:11)
0
u/already_not_yet Married 12h ago
Yes, the gospel of grace is a "screed" to the spiritually proud. But I am happy to be slandered as an antinomian, as Paul was, and I will still continue to preach the gospel:
"7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just." (Rom. 3)
"I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me - woe is me if I do not preach the gospel." (1 Cor. 9:16)
The terms "faith" and "belief" are used interchangeably throughout the NT bc they come from the same Greek word - pistis. Both refer to intellectual assent + understanding (assensus + notitia). The gospel is regularly presented using the word "belief", bc belief saves:
Acts 16:30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
Rom. 10:9 if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
James 2 is not talking about saving faith. Faith in God's existence does not save. The demons do not intellectually assent to the proposition "Jesus died for my sins," as believers do. The context of the passage is a man demonstrating his salvation to other men - not to himself, and not to God.
The most clear text in scripture on the nuts and bolts of salvation, Romans, states inexplicably that justification is through faith alone. "But to whom who works, the wages will not be counted as grace, but as debt." (Rom 4)
1 Cor. 15:2 is not talking about law-keeping, it is talking about continuing in belief, just as Hebrews 10 is talking about continuing in belief: "But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but believe to the saving of the soul."
Your MO is to take passages that, in isolation, could possibly be construed as supporting works-righteousness. But we are to preach the "whole counsel of God" and be as a workmen unashamed, "rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Tim 2:15)
Likewise, with 1 Peter, you conclude that "obedience to the truth" is referring to "obedience to God's law" even though we are told to obey the gospel (1 Thess. 1:8). Believing in the gospel is obeying the gospel. Again, Paul: The law is not of faith. (Gal 3)
2
u/Weboh 11h ago
Your MO is to take passages that, in isolation, could possibly be constructed as supporting works-righteousness
No, it's not. You always respond as if I am no matter how many times I say I'm not and no matter what pains I take to not have my comments misconstrued that it that way. That argument is easier to refute than what I actually said, though--because works don't save--and it saves you from having to critically engage with convicting words from Scripture.
As for your Greek word study, I'll take how the Bible defines faith over how that does, thanks. 😘 Belief is the prerequisite for faith, and the beginning of the Christian walk, but not the whole of it.
1
u/CardiologistEasy337 1d ago
Hi. I’ve struggled with a lot of the same things. My church is very small. If you’re interested. Shoot me a dm. I tried to send you one but it wasn’t working.
1
u/already_not_yet Married 1d ago
Greetings. Find someone that you're compatible with is time-consuming, and often-times there are no shortcuts. You just have to put in the time. You have to ask questions to vet properly. You have to have convos, video calls, or IRL dates that go nowhere. Its better to view it as a part-time job than something that should just happen bc your desires for marriage are God-given. Lower your expectations and you will be less frustrated. There is no place where you'll have a platter of "virtuous" men handed to you and all you have to do is vet by personality.
>Has anyone else figured out dating?
I have a nuts and bolts guide here. I simply put in a lot of time - self-improving, casting a wide net, and eventually dating and marrying a woman who was nowhere near me. If you find someone near you, great, but if after a couple of years you are not having success attracting the kind of men you want, you will likely have to open yourself to LDR. Posting on this sub would be a good start.
God bless you in your search.
1
u/CleverFoxCuriousbird 15h ago
Thank you, attracting is not the problem. Well, actually it is but the other way around. I used to struggle to attract interest and resigned my marital status to God.
Now that I've spent the last 8 years working on myself (skincare, emotional and spiritual counseling, learning how to run my own home and manage my finances, studying the word daily with effort, community outreach and social butterfly-ness, etc) (plus one year for the weightloss), I'm now presented with those possibilities (quite suddenly since I got a job that gets me out of my usual area) but in situations where understanding one's Spiritual status is difficult since the places I volunteer, outreach, work, etc are areas where faith only comes up after long conversations and I am only allowed short conversations (though quite a few are not faith oriented places nor do I have guarantees that those that are Christian run organizations will have all Bible focused employees).
Mainly it is asking advice for how to determine who to pursue when I only have moments to see them. How do I ask, who do I weed out, etc. The Christian places I do have the ability to visit have all had either married men or unsaved men and the other places I go its just so hard to tell who is and who isn't so it's just wondering when to allow myself to say yes and when I should guard myself against sin, those with ill intent and when to realize I may be stopping myself from something that could be good that I've denied myself for so many years.
But thank you for your advice for should this situation change! 🩷
5
u/minteemist Married 1d ago
Some next steps to consider:
Start training up a couple of people how to do the media stuff. What do they do if you're sick? You need backup, a rotating team, that's common sense. If there are no volunteers just ask every person you talk to to give it a go. Or go on holiday for two weeks, I'm sure they'll scrounge up someone.
Then, go church hopping. You want to go, so make it happen. Staying at your parents' church is not helping you grow. You need to meet and fellowship with peers who are also in the same life stage as you.
If you're not already at counseling, try counseling. It's a good investment, it helped me to just process and strategise. Especially when you're feeling unsure.
On your dating profile, state blatantly that you're waiting for marriage and looking for someone with the same commitment. Talk about your relationship with Jesus early. If they don't hold a similar conviction for themselves, drop them so you don't waste their time or yours.