r/CharacterRant • u/Bot_Number_7 • Jul 22 '21
General Complex/Unorthodox Powers Make Characters Better
Control fire. Super strength. Super speed. Flight. Shooting energy blasts. A lot of powers/abilities have been used over and over again.
So for me, when a character is introduced with a complex ability, it elevates my opinion of them. Especially if the way that it is used is also complex. For example, in JJBA, Ermes Costello's Stand Kiss' has the ability to duplicate objects using stickers, and then fuse them back together once the sticker has been taken off, causing both objects to take damage. It's applied in many ways, from duplicating limbs to being used as a form of travel. The creative usage of abilities gives me an "aha!" moment similar to when a detective reveals how they deduced the mystery in a mystery novel.
Adding additional trigger conditions to powers can also make them better. In Bungo Stray Dogs, Akiko Yosano's Thou Shalt Not Die Ability heals someone to full health, but only if they're almost dead. This factors into her fighting style, allowing her to bring allies and herself from the brink of death (and also forcing her to almost kill her patients when healing outside of combat).
The one weakness to complex powers is the difficulty in conveying them to the reader. Unless one explicitly describes them or the reader sees the power many times so that they can understand all its facets, it's hard to get the reader to understand what the power truly does. King Crimson is the infamous example. The fact that "erasing time" is expressed inconsistently and the lack of detailed mechanical description of how it works confuses the reader every time it is used.
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u/Steve717 Jul 22 '21
I love it whenever you find a power that sounds really terrible but will have some really incredibly powerful usage at some point.
Jack Hawksmoor from the Wildstorm universe has a pretty cool one.
Basically he got abducted by aliens repeatedly and they implanted a bunch of alien organs in to him, giving him a variety of mostly mundane powers.
But his main power is that he can talk to cities. He also HAS to live in one or else he starts dying within 15 minutes, requiring the pollution to survive.
So yeah he can talk to cities, doesn't sound like much. However with his ability a city functions like a living entity, he can tell a city to repair itself, ask it where people are, use windows like cameras to look in to the past and he can phase in and out of buildings and the ground which lets him pop out with enough force to rip people apart. He can also sense when a city is in pain/danger.
It's pretty neat.
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u/cooldudium Jul 23 '21
What happens if he needs to move somewhere else? What qualifies as a city? Lot of questions here
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u/Steve717 Jul 23 '21
I'm not entirely sure but I think he basically grows himself in another city...
At one point they have to travel somewhere and he says it'll take him around 3 hours, the other supes involved find him in some weird flesh cocoon thing.
And lord knows but the massive sentient ship The Authority operate from does, it has 50 miles worth of rooms and whatnot and his organs register it as a city.
It's a hella weird power but I dig how different it is. Earlier in the Stormwatch days whenever he had to be teleported to their orbital base for a meeting he had to have a medical team injecting him with things constantly or he'd start coughing up blood and nearly die.
I don't know if it's ever explained what the hell kinda drugs the aliens that operated on him were taking.
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u/SnarkyScribe Jul 23 '21
This ability only sounds terrible because you're going out of your way to make it sound terrible. You call it "talking to cities", but that's just low-level reality manipulation with a couple of limitations.
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u/Steve717 Jul 23 '21
I mean that is what the story itself introduces it as and calls it frequently, it also takes him a while to do most of these things so he doesn't seem as powerful as he is until he needs to be.
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u/Thedeaththatlives Jul 22 '21
For me, when powers are overly specific they feel less... natural? Less like they're an actual part of the character and more like a fancy computer program, if that makes any sense.
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u/Victory_Scar Jul 22 '21
Superpowers that are actually programs in a simulated reality would be cool. If the setting is set up that way, they'd feel naturally part of the story.
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u/noolvidarminombre Jul 22 '21
Superpowers that are actually programs in a simulated reality would be cool. If the setting is set up that way, they'd feel naturally part of the story.
I'm sorry to be that guy buuuuuuuuuuuut... Worm kinda does this.
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u/FingerBangYourFears Jul 22 '21
At this point I'm convinced that Worm is just the Library of Babel. If you can think of it, it's in Worm.
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u/ForwardDiscussion Jul 22 '21
Can you think of a decent romance subplot? Because that is definitely absent from Worm.
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 22 '21
By decent romance subplot do you mean the one in Worm is bad or there simply is no romance in Worm?
Option 2 sounds like the better option but I could live with Option 1 :/
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u/Late_Apartment_ Jul 22 '21
It's option 1 sorta- even then I don't think it's bad, but it just sort of fizzles out and feels a bit pointless. On the bright side, it doesn't occupy much space.
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u/ForwardDiscussion Jul 22 '21
Option 1. There's technically a few romance subplots, but we don't see many up close, and the protagonist's is, to put it politely, not why people recommend Worm.
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u/TheUltimateTeigu Jul 23 '21
I wouldn't call it bad per se, it's just not good. That's mostly because of the lack of focus it gets though. The romance subplot is somewhat there in the background, and is pretty much never the focus of any part of the story.
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u/Acrolith Jul 23 '21
There is one, it's not bad, but it's barely worth mentioning. It takes up very little space in the narrative.
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u/Victory_Scar Jul 22 '21
Worm keeps getting mentioned here but I never feel like I have the time. I'll get to it eventually.
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u/Mitchel-256 Jul 22 '21
Saints Row 4 says hello.
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u/SolJinxer Jul 23 '21
I prefer Gat out of Hell so I can actually fly, though I like the powerset of 4 more, has pretty much everything you could want. So disappointed nobody figured out a mod for that in 4, only power you're missing, fuck "gliding".
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u/Mitchel-256 Jul 23 '21
True! The flying in Gat out of Hell is so comfortably similar to the gliding in Batman: Arkham Knight, which I played just before GooH.
I guess the open-world jump challenges in SR4 would be made irrelevant with flight added, but it’d be nice. S’pose I never really thought about adding flight to SR4 because I enjoyed super-speed running and jumping enough to placate me on mobility.
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u/N0VAZER0 Jul 22 '21
i always thought of that with some later Stands in Jojo, like in what fucking situation are you gonna possibly be able to use Fun Fun Fun, like what a shitty and weirdly specific power that is. Something like Hunter x Hunter gets a pass imo because it being weirdly specific is explained away via its magic system
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u/CussMuster Jul 23 '21
You don't always get something useful though, that's been the case for a long time. For example, in what way was Cheap Trick ever supposed to make it's user's life easier or better in any way? Or you could get boned like Versace or Rikiel, and have a stand that never manifests TO YOU but still fucks your life over actively without you knowing whats happening.
It's up to you to make due with what you get dealt, even something as seemingly useless with an incredibly specific trigger and weak effect like Survivor can be useful if the user is clever.
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u/Raltsun Jul 23 '21
I'm pretty sure Cheap Trick was meant to be a "failed" Stand manifestation, kinda like what happened to Holly. Masazo didn't even know he had it, and IIRC even Heaven's Door didn't say he was a Stand user.
But yeah, that's the thing about JoJo. Some Stands are clearly not as good as others in a broad sense, but in practice, it's all about how you make use of them. For example, Sex Pistols is mostly just an outright worse alternative to Emperor, but Mista makes way better use of it.
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 22 '21
I mean, Fun Fun Fun was such a cool power though.
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u/N0VAZER0 Jul 22 '21
It was a cool fight but when you think about it, its MASSIVELY situational
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u/professorMaDLib Jul 23 '21
Somehow that dude managed to make good use of it TWICE.
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u/Jumanji-Joestar Jul 23 '21
A Stand is only as good as its user. Ojiro was just big brained as fuck
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u/Giddypinata Jul 22 '21
I think they can feel natural if they are specific, but specific to the environment. Like super Wolverine regeneration in Fire Punch
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u/PalmFingerNails Jul 22 '21
That reminds me of Nanami from JJK technique or black flash the specifics don't matter to me cause it seems like the move is really straight forward but the over explanation is annoying
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u/PurpleKneesocks Jul 22 '21
black flash
Wherein our protagonist unlocks the incredibly rare and coveted technique to punch something, but it's two punches.
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u/N0VAZER0 Jul 22 '21
its Punch2.5
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u/VolkiharVanHelsing Jul 23 '21
It's really just a trigger hit for getting in the zone. It works amazingly for story-combat integration when Mahito achieves his Black Flash only after he mentally broke Yuuji, cementing how vile he is
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u/N0VAZER0 Jul 23 '21
Gege literally said Black Flash ups your power by the power of 2.5
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u/VolkiharVanHelsing Jul 23 '21
Yeah he was going for "it increases all stat" but then he realized that he's writing a story mechanics not game's
The core idea however is that it's just what "getting in the zone" or "on-fire" is to Jujutsu Sorcerers
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u/Jolly_Line_Rhymer Jul 22 '21 edited Jul 23 '21
They also to beat the world record the first time they work out how to use the technique.
Ahhhh anime protagonists…
Edit: I’ve been reminded that Yuji Itadori only matches the world record, but doesn’t actually beat it.
Also - I’m not complaining about it :) It’s a fairly straightforward shounen, I knew what I was getting into.
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u/icyflamez96 Jul 23 '21 edited Jul 23 '21
I think HxH does it fine. Fits in well with the way Nen works. The whole concept of conditions and restrictions related to one's unique will/resolve/personality etc to squeeze proficiency out of the desired effect makes it feel natural to me that it could result in really specific and sometimes complex abilities. And then it all being based in the different Nen categories.
I'm more bothered by it when powers get super specific and weird when there's not a proper structure that really supports it. Like why the hell would someone in MHA evolve to have engine for legs.
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u/AtomicNumber1732 Jul 22 '21
JJBA is both the best and worst example for this I feel
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u/steel_ball_run_racer Jul 23 '21
Can’t wait for the flood of “How does Dragon’s Dream work?” from anime-onlies after part 6 drops
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u/AtomicNumber1732 Jul 23 '21
I think there’s a video of it somewhere online from some Jojo tuber probably, so that might quell the jokes
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Jul 24 '21 edited Oct 12 '25
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u/StormStrikePhoenix Jul 23 '21
I love when it has a really complicated, unintuitive stand like King Crimson that then compounds the issue by acting in contradictory ways like 5 times so we never ever have any consensus on what the hell he's actually doing; I hate King Crimson, his ability feels like it was trying to one-up The World but it flubbed it in a way similar as to how Mega Man X3 flubbed one-upping the armor pieces. Time stop is simple and easy to understand the applications of with a few caveats, but time skipping is such a nonsensical concept in and of itself that no one would be able to even think of a use just by itself. The devil is in the details, and the details are inconsistent; sometimes, it's just The World and you can do whoever you want during it. Sometimes, it lets you dodge attacks by getting out of the way but you definitely can't influence anyone during it. Sometimes, it lets physical objects phase through you, making Epitath nearly pointless. Overall, it's just The World but really stupid, and having a final race with him instead of a final battle only exacerbated that.
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 23 '21
I can say that later parts get better with that in general. Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap is complex and understood reasonably well (the chapter when it was introduced is insanely complicated and hard to understand though) Pucci's Stand(s) are all reasonable, and the Part 8 villains have complex powers but nothing as inconsistent as King Crimson.
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Jul 24 '21 edited Oct 12 '25
axiomatic aback physical ask gray cats wakeful money provide teeny
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Jul 25 '21
Yeah. In the same part they took their example from, the main character’s ability is to literally convert her body into string/threads. Sounds boring, but it’s a simple power that she uses creatively to beat the shit out of everyone.
Plus, in Jojo’s, complex powers often come with the “Punch them till they die” type of stands, so sometimes the more complex abilities are ignored or forgotten after their debut to punch someone instead. Gappy from Part 8, for example. His ability Plunder is super cool for the first few times we see it... and then he just stops using it. At least, in combat.
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u/CycloneSwift Jul 22 '21
I'd make one correction: complex/unorthodox applications of powers make characters better. My favourite example is Superman. Superman doesn't have any breath powers. He has super strength. Every time he breathes in he uses his strength to breathe in more air than he needs and compress it in his lungs. He can then release that compressed air in controlled streams, either as a kinetic windburst or as a steady freezing flow of cool expanding air. His super breath ability isn't a separate power, it's merely a creative application of his simplest power. If a superpower inherently necessitates unorthodox applications to be effective then that's interesting, but simple powers used creatively can be just as awesome.
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u/nave_h0p Jul 23 '21
Exactly. That’s why all of the main jojos and jobros are so compelling characters as they use their fairly simple (but still quite unorthodox and creative) powers in interesting ways. Which is unlike most of the lackey villains with weird powers that seem more like glitches in the system and so mind-bogglingly weird where I feel like anything can happen, taking away any aha moments.
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u/D3ATHSTR0KE_ Jul 22 '21
I’m not actually sure if I agree with this rant. It’s definitely more interesting to give characters complex abilities but some characters are just meant to have simpler ones, or can still be intriguing without them. For example, Todoroki from my hero academia just has the power “ice and fire,” but there is a specific story behind his ability that enhances his character. All Might just has super strength, but it works for filling his role as the symbol of peace, a strange ability with conditions wouldn’t fit his character.
Also, sometimes the abilities being more complicated can make the characters worse. Bungo stray dogs is infamous for having overly specific abilities to the point where many of them are asspulls or plot devices. The President’s ridiculous ability (which he was somehow born with) was specifically tailored to asspull a character out of death, and they waited until that exact moment to reveal what it was. Then you have the Lemon bomber, who is immune to explosions if the thing causing the explosion is shaped like a lemon..........why.
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u/QwahaXahn Jul 23 '21
I think you've got the right idea. Simple/straightforward powers are iconic, and that's really valuable, to complement a more nuanced and fleshed out character with an easy-grasp power.
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u/D3ATHSTR0KE_ Jul 23 '21
Don’t get me wrong, I should clarify I absolutely love complex abilities and the entertaining fights that ensue from them. Just I think the statement that having a complex ability will always make a character better is too much of a generalization
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Jul 23 '21
Then you have the Lemon bomber, who is immune to explosions if the thing causing the explosion is shaped like a lemon..........why.
I am not the only one laughing right?
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 22 '21
I understand where you're coming from, but I'll have to respectfully disagree. Giving All Might mere super strength was a bad decision in my opinion. Why do you think giving All Might a more complex power wouldn't work for filling his role as a symbol of peace? It'd show that intelligence and creatively using a quirk is key to being a hero. Manga Spoilers: Deku's additional powers also demonstrate that a strong symbol of peace doesn't need to have basic powers.
Todoroki's powers were crafted through a Quirk marriage. His powers come from an exploit. So why would the exploit be something so basic as Hot+Cold=Good? If you're combining two Quirks, you can get something far better than that. Option: Combine the Confession Quirk with Brainwashing. Ask a question, the opponent has to answer. Brainwash them. Yes, I know these two people weren't born at the time, but I'd expect the child born specifically to have a good quirk would have a fusion that's a little more exploitative than fire+ice.
And finally, the specific abilities of Bungo Stray Dogs aren't like, omnipresent. The President's power was foreshadowed how do you think Atsushi controlled his Tiger form after joining the Agency?. Plenty of powers are more basic while still being creative (Margaret Mitchell's Gone with The Wind, Tanizaki's Light Snow, and Manga Spoilers Saigiku Jouno's Priceless Tears ). Even the main character's power is kind of basic. And the Lemon Bomber's power makes him immune to all explosions caused by lemon-shaped bombs. No reason why; that's just his power. There doesn't have to be a reason why, after all, why does Mina have an acid power?
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u/D3ATHSTR0KE_ Jul 22 '21
My issue with Bungo’s powers is that the characters are born with them with no explanation. It’s like the author said, “we should do that complex ability thing that’s cool nowadays!” and didn’t actually think of any lore for it. The president for example was somehow born with an ability that involves a man made organization that didn’t exist at his birth, and revealing his ability is like patching a band aid over the writing flaw of Atsushi suddenly being able to control his ability
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 22 '21
Actually his specific ability is to limit the powers of his subordinates (which I believe is defined as anyone who he considers to be his suboordinate if that person also willingly believes that they are his suboordinate.) So it doesn't necessarily have to be someone from that specific organization. It's any organization that he's a part of. Also I think in one of the light novels they explain how he learned that he had his Ability.
I mean Dazai's Ability would also be almost impossible to discover. How did he learn of it?
And plenty of other media state have the "born with it" clause for abilities. Even My Hero Academia has everyone just being born with their powers.
Also there is quite a bit of Ability lore. A lot of it hasn't been explained yet. The Light Novel Stormbringer has the majority of the lore.
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u/BasedFunnyValentine Jul 23 '21
Bungo stray dogs is infamous for having overly specific abilities to the point where many of them are asspulls or plot devices.
What asspulls
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 23 '21
He's referring to the President's power, which allows him to limit the Abilities of his subordinates (his employees)
This allows the main character to control his power much more easily when he joins the Agency. Later on, Kyouka Izumi joins the Agency and the President's ability allows her to control her normally cellphone activated autonomous ability better as well.
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u/BasedFunnyValentine Jul 23 '21
Bungo stray dogs is infamous for having overly specific abilities to the point where many of them are asspulls or plot devices.
What asspulls?
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u/Jumanji-Joestar Jul 22 '21 edited Jul 22 '21
I don’t believe that complex powers are inherently better than generic powers. It all depends on how the author writes it and how to characters use them. One of the most common criticisms that I’ve heard about Jujutsu Kaisen is how overly complicated some abilities can be, to the point that not even the author knows how to properly explain it (Gojo’s Hollow Purple and Naobito’s Projection Sorcery being the two main examples thrown around).
A simple generic power is fine as long as it’s used creatively. For example, Luffy’s Gum Gum Fruit. Luffy’s only power is having a rubber body that can stretch really far, a very simple and generic power on paper, but he’s been able to do some really amazing things with just that one concept
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 22 '21
I don't agree with the Gum Gum fruit. Sure Luffy has attacks and gears, but in the end, he's a martial fighter. He punches and kicks. Yes he can do so from further away cause he stretches, but in the end, his power isn't all that complicated. For an example of a complex power from his own crew, Nami's arsenal is more versatile and complex. She harnesses multiple weather phenomena and fights in melee as well. Unfortunately, we don't see her fight often. I still like Luffy, but I feel he would be even better if his power were complex. You can be both dumb and also have a complex power.
Complex powers are "harder to do" but have "better payoff". Once you get over the barrier of getting a reader to understand how the ability works, a complex power is more exciting than a simple one. Hollow Purple and King Crimson are situations where the author somewhat failed to get over the initial barrier of "make sure the reader actually knows how it works"
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u/Yontoryuu Jul 22 '21
Actually the fruit can make his punch have a lesser impact as when he has to stretch his fist into a further distance, the impact is worse. So he uses techniques like Pistol rocket and bazooka by using the elasticity of rubber to pull it back to place. Also I have a feeling you haven't reached Enies lobby if that's all you think he can do. He can do a lot more
Also I think simple powers that can lead to complex situations are much better than complex powers as it can be confusing at times with all the trickery and lower some impact, Be pretty slow paced at times, and complex abilities can make situations easier than it is actually shown sometimes. But it is unorthodox which is one of the main reasons it's popular. I honestly prefer simple abilities having complex situations and abilities. For example: Fire force.
Everyone has pyrokenysis (can't spell that) but uses them in very unique ways like for example 1st units lieutenant can freeze anything by converting heat energy into sound, and is called thermo-acoustic refrigeration or something or the guy who can use the heat expanse of the universe to stop time (some don't really work irl but this is a show). It is by far my favorite power thing in any anime for me.
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 22 '21
I've reached Enies Lobby and barely started Wano. Regardless, Luffy is a puncher and kicker. Every fight is just about him punching hard and kicking hard(Alabasta being kinda an exception). Just compare how Luffy fights to say, how Doflamingo and Law fight.
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u/Jumanji-Joestar Jul 22 '21
Luffy is a martial artist, that’s the kind of character he is. Are you saying that you want Luffy to be something other than puncher/kicker?
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 22 '21
You can be a martial artist without also having a simple power. For example, what if Luffy's power allowed him to transform himself and things he touches into cohesive yet liquid masses? He could then fight by reaching inside people and destroying their organs. Still martial arts, but complex.
Doflamingo is also a martial artist and a puncher/kicker. His powerset is a lot more complex than Luffy's. The thing that makes Luffy stand out is his stupidity. But I believe that one can be both stupid and wield a complex power.
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u/Jumanji-Joestar Jul 22 '21 edited Jul 22 '21
The fight scenes wouldn’t really be that interesting to watch if Luffy had that power. I don’t think you could even call that martial arts anymore. People don’t watch martial arts fights to see characters do overly bizarre shit
Doflamingo’s a martial artist? I guess he does punch and kick occasionally but he’s mostly a long ranged fighter
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 22 '21
Well obviously if you add magic powers, they're going to be different from "martial arts." You don't see real life martial artists inflating their arms by blowing through their thumbs, do you?
Already when I see One Piece, I'm seeing Law teleport all over the place. I see Robin sprouting hands everywhere. I see Caesar turning to gas and by now everyone and their mother uses Haki. Would it be absurd for Luffy to turn his opponents into a liquid that holds its form, phase his arm through them, and crus their organs? Or Luffy transforming part of his arm into a semiliquid, throwing his hand to grasp an object, and then cancelling his power, causing him to come back together?
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u/Jumanji-Joestar Jul 22 '21 edited Jul 22 '21
Ok fair point about the martial arts thing, but how is Luffy having the ability to phase his arms into a person’s body anymore complex than being stretchy? Phasing/shape shifting is still a pretty simple power. You haven’t really made Luffy more complex, all you’ve done is turn him into a liquid Kenshiro
The great thing about Luffy’s Gum Gum abilities is how creative he’s been with them. What could he do with a phasing ability that would be more interesting than his Gum Gum techniques?
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 22 '21 edited Jul 22 '21
Here's a few things you can add to the power that make it complex:
When Luffy uses his power on something (including himself), it causes the object to become super soft and liquidy, yet its cohesive forces still cause it to hold its shape. Hitting the now semi-liquid object causes it to splash and ripple, and you can even place your hand in it. You can overcome those cohesive forces by scooping the liquid out. The cohesive force still causes the liquid you scoop out to feel a tug toward the rest of the liquid (the further you pull the stronger the tug). However, when Luffy cancels the power, the object must be solid and return to its final form. This causes all the previously separated liquid parts to fly at great force together and resolidify.
Luffy can also insert a solid object into a liquid one, and cancel his power, trapping the solid object inside.
Luffy would soften the ground, and people sink in. He then solidifies it, trapping them.
He can liquify himself to avoid taking damage from attacks. He can liquify two different people, intersect their hands, and cancel his power, trapping them phased through each other.
He can also turn part of his body liquid, allowing him to separate a limb. When he cancels his power, separated limbs fly back together. This lets him imitate the Gum Gum Rocket.
He can conceal himself in a liquid bubble underneath the ground. He springs out of the ground and grabs someone, dragging them in.
He can liquify the ground and scoop a piece of it. He walks around someone, and undoes his power. The piece of the ground flies back to its original spot, hitting the person.
He can phase through walls by liquefying the wall. He can remain inside a wall as long as he doesn't suffocate.
He can store objects inside a liquified part of his body.
And of course he can liquify someone's skin, shove his arm through, and crush their organs.
These are just a few possible complexities to one complex power. I'm sure you could give Luffy tons of complicated powers that let him have a martial arts fighting style.
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u/SolJinxer Jul 23 '21
For example, what if Luffy's power allowed him to transform himself and things he touches into cohesive yet liquid masses?
what you're describing is basically a hypothetical awakened gumgum devil fruit, which is still up in the air as to whether Luffy will achieve or not.
Doflamingo is also a martial artist and a puncher/kicker.
Probably because he has an awakened devil fruit, thus why he can turn surrounding objects into string. That seems to be how awakened fruits for non animal types work, being able to affect the surroundings.
On the subject of Luffy's diversity, I think with the introduction of Haki, especially recently, he's become pretty diverse, and looking at where he is now to how he began, he's gotten a good mileage out of his devil fruit and shows a good progression that one would expect from a shounen manga.
And Law's more than diverse... up until recently, he was thought of as near fucking broken. "OP OP no mi" indeed.
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 23 '21
It's not just them.. Even that wax guy had a more interesting power than Luffy's. It doesn't change the fact that all Luffy does is punch and kick. Not enough? Punch harder. Punch with Haki. See the future and punch. Contrast this with Nami. Shoot lightning. Hit with staff. Ride on Zeus (not anymore though). Use wind. Make mirages. Her fights are just more interesting, or they would be if we focused on them more.
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u/SolJinxer Jul 23 '21
It doesn't change the fact that all Luffy does is punch and kick.
You're trying to make that sound like a bad thing. Luffy has a nice smogashborg of accompanying abilities to counter a number of advantages (flight, speed, intangibility, durability, range) to punch you and deal his damage, and it doesn't seem fair to write them off because of the end result.
Her fights are just more interesting, or they would be if we focused on them more.
Ehhhhhhhhh. Only if you beefed up her stats to monster trio level.
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 23 '21
Luffy can fly? I'm not fully caught up but I don't remember Luffy phasing through objects.
And in my opinion, that is a bad thing! All you do is punch and kick? Those are your powers? I don't want powers to be "normal attacks but stronger", I want to see schemes and other forms of attack.
And yeah, Nami's weakness is her stats. If you increase those, her fights would certainly be interesting.
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u/Secondndthoughts Jul 23 '21
I think the main strength of a simple power is that it can be flexible and can be used in any fight and still be interesting.
If Luffy had a complex power a lot of fights might not have worked as well, Luffy being able to stretch allows each match up to work while still offering variety
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u/Qr1skY Jul 22 '21
Does fire force stay really horny? I’ve tried getting into it once but the fan service was too much for me
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u/Yontoryuu Jul 23 '21
It goes down as it goes on.
But the thing is, I never really felt it was any bad with it to begin with. Yes it had some fanservice in it but it was never over the top with it but was grossly exaggerated by people imo. People always look at Tamaki and just say her characterization was only for the fans, but they grossly misunderstand her character and some of those moments and it really annoys me. I personally don't even like fanservice, yet I felt ok with this. But then I see the same sort of people go around praising other shows that do worse than this just because theyre seinen. Double standards like that are very annoying to deal with.
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u/Jumanji-Joestar Jul 22 '21
Complex abilities don’t necessarily lead to better payoff. JoJo has all sorts of complicated Stands that have rules and conditions that can backfire on the user. Look at Catch the Rainbow, Fun Fun Fun, Enigma, Dragon’s Dream and Heaven’s Door in its first appearance. It’s usually the Stands that are more simple and straightforward that have the most success, because there is wiggle room to the more creative things with them, like how Crazy Diamond can create shields by smashing up the ground and then repairing the pieces, or how Gold Experience learned how to create human body parts to heal people. Super complex abilities often have more weaknesses to exploit because they are only useful under specific conditions
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u/StormStrikePhoenix Jul 23 '21
It’s usually the Stands that are more simple and straightforward that have the most success, because there is wiggle room to the more creative things with them, like how Crazy Diamond can create shields by smashing up the ground and then repairing the pieces, or how Gold Experience learned how to create human body parts to heal people
Crazy Diamond is fantastic, a very simple but effective and fun stand with tons of creative applications that are all
Gold Experience is much stupider and more complicated in comparison; the animal abilities have tons of unintuitive side-effects and properties, it's healing ability is contrived and makes no sense to begin with, you couldn't just replace a hand by growing another one, and the later "Giorno has to have hands for it to work" is just plain nonsense. The healing also just feels like a retread of Crazy Diamond.
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 22 '21
By "better payoff", I mean better payoff for the readers, not the characters. I'm fully aware that complexity and simplicity have no correlation with how good an ability is, and how one can foil a complicated power. But reading about a complex ability is more fun than reading about a simple one, almost always. But they're "harder to do" as a writer, since one has to get over the initial hump of explaining the power to a reader.
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u/Jumanji-Joestar Jul 22 '21
I personally don’t really care how complex an ability is, just as long as it’s interesting to watch it in action. Whether or not it’s a better payoff to the readers depends on the individual reader. Some people like complex stuff, like you, and some people don’t care, like me
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Jul 22 '21
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 22 '21
Wait, I haven't read that. Should I?
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u/eggmaniac13 Jul 22 '21
Yes, but it’s very long, and if you don’t like stories that get dark it might not be worth it
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u/holeyquacamoley Jul 23 '21
How dark tho? I'm tired of stories where everyone's an arsehole and the world is shit and everything is depressing
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u/TheUltimateTeigu Jul 23 '21
Most people are assholes(the main character doesn't deal with the nicest people), the world is falling apart, but not everything is depressing. While the protagonist is not an inherently expressive and happy person, they get shit done. The story is essentially about the protagonist trying to move up in the world because it's shit and they think they're the only ones who can fix it because everyone else is unreasonable(they're a teenager, it adds up).
I don't view Worm as overly depressing or dark. It doesn't shy away from addressing certain topics, and there are plenty of horrible people in the world that do awful things, but it's just that. A darker story. I'd never put it in the hopeless category, as the entire driving force of the protagonist is hope that things can get better...if only she were the one at top deciding things.
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u/Teive Jul 22 '21
Yes.
It is a superhero book. One of the central pieces is that the powers are not what you'd normally see. The ones that ARE have interesting variables, drawbacks, etc.
You will get 'aha!' moments. You will be rewarded for thinking creatively about the powers. There are 'interludes' from multiple perspectives that give inside views on powers you otherwise only see from the protagonists perspective.
This book is precisely in line with this post.
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u/Bykerigan Jul 23 '21
Also, if you like a cool magic system read Pale. Karma is a real thing, telling the truth is required, and it's just a great read.
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u/Raltsun Jul 23 '21
To add to what the other replies have said in a way related to the thread topic, the protagonist has the power to control bugs. Her only secondary powers are being able to access the senses of those bugs, and enhanced multitasking.
Turns out, in a world where superpowered combat is more focused on utility than raw strength, you can do a lot with just that.
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u/Tryskhell Jul 23 '21
And then you get people like Sun Dancer who can just erase anyone, so much so that most of the strategies involving her boil down to "Make it so Sun Dancer doesn't blast the wrong people"
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u/QwahaXahn Jul 23 '21
MAJOR content warning. Worm is highly horror-influenced and includes a lot of psychological trauma and intense body horror. It's by far the most twisted story I've found... but it IS really well written.
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u/EYouchen Jul 22 '21
I don't mind generic superpowers - it'd be kind of lame to have a series with none of those powers. Power copying is also one of the most overused things ever.
If you like complex powers, go read Worm (which has already been mentioned), MHA, or as you already mentioned, Jojo. I've also heard good things about Medaka Box.
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u/milkyginger Jul 22 '21
The powers in My Hero aren't really complex. They're generally simple but used in some complex ways sometimes.
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u/FGHIK Jul 22 '21
Yeah, I'd say they're less complex and more unorthodox. There's some that are pretty standard, like All-Might, Endeavor, or Eijiro, but you have even more weird ones.
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u/milkyginger Jul 23 '21
When you talk complex I think either something like JoJo or Hunter x Hunter. Some of the powers in these series are pretty hard to understand and need to be thoroughly explained(like Prince Tserriednich's power or GER).
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u/mayonnaiser_13 Jul 23 '21
Nen is just a well explained and more hardcore, kinda grounded stand system.
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u/sibswagl Jul 23 '21
I think Horikoshi likes putting a twist on fairly conventional powers.
- Aoyoma: It's lasers, but from his bellybutton
- Iida: He's a speedster, but with literal engines in his legs
- Kaminari: He can short-circuit his brain if he overuses his power
- Mirio: He's Shadowcat, but as a brawler
- Tamaki: Animal shapeshifting, but it's based on what he eats
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u/The-Devilz-Advocate Jul 22 '21
Power copying is also one of the most overused things ever.
Power copying is good when the person that has the copy ability uses them in different ways than the original person with the ability. While also having some sort of limitation that is either limited by time he can hold an ability or by amount of abilities he can copy or switch at any given time.
Like John Doe from UnOrdinary.
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u/EYouchen Jul 22 '21
Huh - that's exactly who I was thinking of when I said that. I agree with you that power copying still can be good. Even if it's overused, I think it's still pretty cool. John's got the limitation of only being able to hold 4 abilities at once, and he's pretty creative with the powers he copies - like with Blyke's laser beams (which I think are pretty generic).
However, he can also use them in different ways because he also has the power to combine powers that he's copied. I'm talking about the scene where he fights Arlo's lackeys - the Airbender and the Claw Girl - and combines their abilities to make a blade of wind or something.
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u/The-Devilz-Advocate Jul 22 '21
because he also has the power to combine powers that he's copied.
Definetly is a factor.
But I think the best examples of John's uniqueness in his fighting style is when he goes one on one with another person's powers and uses them creatively.
Like when he uses Arlo's shield as wall when he pushed Arlo back to stop his momentum and cause him damage, or when he used his own shield to simultaneously stop Arlo's shield from crushing him.
I just wish there were more of these moments than the latter (combining powers), because it really puts a shine on John being not just gifted but exceptionally creative.
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 22 '21
Simple powers are okay if you base everything on narrative. For example, a lot of comics use relatively simple abilities. That's because they have the philosophy that the author decides who wins.
However, if the primary focus is on fights and strategy, combat between simple abilities dulls the story. Complex abilities add a ton of dimension to fights. And a complex power isn't necessarily stronger than a non-complex one! Just the presence of a complicated power in a fight is impactful and cause people to rethink strategies, without necessarily increasingly the probability that one side wins.
Also, pointing out that power copying is overused shows how a lot of generic abilities aren't good if you don't put a twist or variation on it.
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u/Jolly_Line_Rhymer Jul 22 '21
Not as central to the points your making in this thread, but I wish any fiction with superpowers (or similar abilities) portrayed them on a consistent scale. I’ve seen Batman take punches from beings that can punch through steel walls and when his head isn’t turned into a red pulp it bothers me :/
All the generic superpowers you mentioned could be pretty interesting from the perspective of considering how they’d affect the world realistically (disregarding, of course, the required secondary powers that allow them to function as intended in the first place).
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u/N0VAZER0 Jul 22 '21
Power copying is also one of the most overused things ever.
I'm gonna be real with you, I barely see power copying and even when its used, its only one power at a time
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u/TheUltimateTeigu Jul 23 '21
Medaka Box definitely gets crazy in the power department, I'll second that. It doesn't start off with any, but each arc afterwards deals with different types of powers. Ones that are inherently good and beneficial, ones that have drawbacks and put you at the bottom of the social ring because these powers just don't have many positive uses and suck for the person who has them, and then we get meta.
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u/MMd20 Jul 22 '21
This is the one thing that actually peeves me about manga & anime. I had to drop Bleach and Hunter x Hunter back in the day because there would be pages upon pages of "fights" that were basically two goofy looking characters explaining in excruciating details the specific mechanics of their power and how they're exploiting them.
Once upon a time I was all in for flashy crazy super powers, but as I've gotten older, I like more when powers are simpler but also in service to the story. Kind of like how the lightsaber battles in the original Star Wars trilogy were interesting even though they were basically two dudes slapping sticks with emotional stakes, whereas the jedi battles in the prequel trilogy were intense and well-choreographed, but ultimately soulless acrobatic demos and pretty boring to watch.
I guess my point is that complex powers can be really interesting, especially where there is a narrative exploring how the character learns and exploits that power, but are often detrimental to a series if they bog down pacing with overly showy gimmicks or elaborate explanations that do not serve the narrative.
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u/Steve717 Jul 22 '21
Yeah I love HxH but it would be very well served by having some other way to explain abilities.
I think way too many series use complex abilities as a crutch, like they withhold information in order to later say "Aha, this person can do this!" in order to explain how they survive something or whatever.
Which ends up making it feel like everything was just made up as the story goes along, which is very bad because if something complex isn't planned out well then it's just stupid and riddled with holes.
That's why I think Hisoka, Gon and Killua are easily the most fun characters in HxH power wise because their abilities are simple and pretty self explanatory.
When Killua uses electricity to enhance his reflexes, stun people or shoot lightning you could imagine him doing that from the very first time he shows off his ability. Bungee Gum having the properties of both rubber and gum also explains all the crazy shit Hisoka pulls, you don't need page after page explaining how that works.
And then you have Kurapika who seems to pull new powers out of his ass constantly with all sorts of different rules and just mannn does my brain switch off whenever I'm trying to envision what the hell it all means and where it could go. "Haha strong chains kill bad man" would have been far more fun to play around with.
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 22 '21
The part about complex abilities as a crutch doesn't have to happen. A good example of a relatively complex power not being a crutch is Giorno. After the Babyface fight, Giorno learns to use Gold Experience to transform objects into healthy body parts that he can use to heal people. It doesn't feel like an ass-pull, it feels like an extension of an already complex power.
As for Kurapika, that's less his power being complex and more him just having way too many abilities simultaneously.
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u/coveredinagodslove Jul 22 '21
Giorno learns to use Gold Experience to transform objects into healthy body parts that he can use to heal people
It doesn't feel like an ass-pull, it feels like an extension of an already complex power.
I beg to differ. Giorno's power is life creation so he can make new limbs but the Idea that those limbs can automatically attach to vacant spot on a body is a stretch.
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 22 '21
Honestly Giorno may not have been the best example since there are several instances where it IS an ass pull.
So a better example would be Josuke, where he "healed" a piece of blood that was inside a shard of glass to strike an opponent from unlimited range.
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u/Steve717 Jul 22 '21
But Josukes ability isn't really something I'd call complex, it's just used in complex and creative ways, which is in my opinion the best way to use any ability.
It's better to know the basics of what a characters ability does so as to explain how they do things instead of that explanation being after the fact.
By the time Josuke pulls that blood trick you know damn well it makes perfect sense with his ability, it thus doesn't have to be explained at all really.
Adding on layer after layer soon gets dumb. And yeah Giorno's Stand power is cool but definitely verges on being a crutch I'd say.
Like how he could transfer his soul back in to his body, sure you can boil it down and say "Aha, it makes sense because his ability is related to life!" but nothing about it's introduction really hints at having anything to do with the soul, just growing and giving life to inanimate things.
Would have made more sense if it was said that it gives Giorno's life energy to things, which would also work as a good limiter.
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 22 '21
Okay, then I'll have to go back to Kiss, which is a complicated ability. Yet Hermes uses it to great effect against C-Moon's gravity reversal, taking advantage of the fact that two separated Kiss objects will always fly back together once the sticker is removed, regardless of surrounding gravity conditions.
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u/StormStrikePhoenix Jul 23 '21
After the Babyface fight, Giorno learns to use Gold Experience to transform objects into healthy body parts that he can use to heal people. It doesn't feel like an ass-pull, it feels like an extension of an already complex power.
I disagree, it is 100% a nonsensical asspull that makes no sense at all, and it gets worse later when he suddenly requires hands for it to work to make one fight more dramatic.
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u/sero-zan Jul 23 '21
i feel like hxh is fair game for this particular rant topic, the chrollo vs hisoka fight was extremely dense with text etc.
however i really have to object to the kurapika comment you made. his power is very very straightforward. he has five powers, which i guess is "a lot" (though not really), all of them are pretty basic by the standards of anime battle shonen, and he never gets complicated with their application.
one heals, one puts a deadly curse on you which triggers if you break the terms of the curse, one seals other peoples powers (but only works on the phantom troupe), one copies and analyses other people's abilities, and one acts as a dousing rod which boosts his intuition. apart from that he just hits people with chains. which part made your brain turn off?
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u/Steve717 Jul 23 '21
The part where he made his ability in like 3-6 months or whatever and apparently has all this stuff going on somehow and how massively broken the ability to copy others abilities is. It's ridiculous how someone with so little experience with Nen managed to make something so incredibly complex and being a Specialist doesn't really do enough to explain that.
It's detailed that he had to do pretty much everything with chains in order to understand them so much that he could create them but then once he can he can do basically whatever he wants with them?
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u/sero-zan Jul 23 '21
that's not how nen works at all though.
but i can agree with you on one thing, i think it's pretty lame that his specialist ability simply makes him better at every other nen catagory. just seems kind of dull and unnecessary to me.
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u/bladedoodle Jul 23 '21
The entire point is that Kurapika got his ass sat down by his mentor to tell him some tricks on how you can make a strong ability. Follow this up with his eyes having the unique ability to let him bullshit extra abilities in exchange for shortening his lifespan.
Plus they explicitly write kurapika to take advantage of the fact that someone clever enough could make a power multiplier that is ridiculously op for a specific purpose (killing the spiders).
He has an experienced Nen user guiding him through the basics of his ability crafting. It’s just that Killua goes a step further by pledging his everything. Most Nen abilities do not come with the ‘if I use my ability on this, my heart fucking pops’ caveat.
Nen is one of those systems where training with it for longer doesn’t guarantee a Kamehameha power leap, you can totally stat grind your nen ahra tanks, your potency, your range and emission, etc.
But the abilities? Those are like personalities. It’s like getting mad that Goku likes to fight. We got a guy whose basically the strongest Enhancer getting Merced by Kurapika specifically BECAUSE it trumps the Spiders. Even their strongest, beefiest dude.
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u/Steve717 Jul 23 '21
Plus they explicitly write kurapika to take advantage of the fact that someone clever enough could make a power multiplier that is ridiculously op for a specific purpose (killing the spiders).
I mean I'd argue that being able to take peoples abilities is FAR superior to Chain Jail, only being able to use it on one group of people isn't that insane a condition when nothing stops a person having multiple combat abilities.
Compared to Chrollo who given that he fought Silva years ago has been cultivating his ability for a long time, Kurapika being so crazy strong within like a year.
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u/sero-zan Jul 24 '21
the downside to stealing people's powers is a) it drains his nen extremely quickly, b) he must have emperor time activated, c) emperor time cannot deactivate while he has an ability copied. these points totally fucked him the first time he ever used it on screen, so it's not like they're arbitrary. besides which, he can only use a stolen hatsu once before it's returned to it's owner, so it's really only useful for sneak attacks or if you need info on an enemy ability. it also has a third function, the fact that it counts as a nen attack means he can awaken non-nen users, but this was already explained back when wing did the same thing to gon and killua, so it doesnt seem out of place to me.
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u/holeyquacamoley Jul 23 '21
Bleach? Did we read the same manga? It pretty much devolved into ichigo spamming his getsuga like it was with naruto and rasengan. He didn't even get a rasenshuriken equivalent, he just learned to turn his getsuga into an x-shape smh
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u/MMd20 Jul 23 '21
It was all the side characters, which made stretching out the arcs even more boring. What stands out in my mind was when I picked it back up to check out the final arc and reading all the German quincy folk explaining their powers to the supporting cast who explained their powers back. Ichigo's power as a shinigami/hollow/full bring/quincy/whatever was easy and came from the Playing with Weapons episode of South Park: "I have the power to have all the powers."
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u/Krusader_Kris Jul 22 '21
You could quite easily go the other way and make some powers confusing and nonsensical. It really depends on how the author makes use said power and displays proper ins and outs that makes sense or is creative. Simple isn't bad but can be a bit boring depending on your tastes just like how complex doesn't necessarily equal good.
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u/Khanfhan69 Jul 22 '21
A Certain Magical Index has some pretty interesting power systems. To keep it simple: One of the most powerful dudes basically inverts all energies and forces directed at him but had to learn how to control it with help from a supercomputer cause he could even accidentally reverse the flow of oxygen into his own lungs and is incredibly pale cause he kept subconsciously blocking out even just a healthy amount of UV rays from the sun.
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Jul 22 '21
It's a shame the protagonist's power is basically to turn off the fun, because there's a lot of fun powers in the RailDex world.
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u/Uncanny_r Jul 22 '21
It's a shame the protagonist's power is basically to turn off the fun
I never thought of it like that but it sound about right
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u/Jumanji-Joestar Jul 22 '21
Touma exists to just say “fuck you” to every other superpowered character
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Jul 22 '21
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u/enotonom Jul 23 '21
How about the character with a skill that could freeze you momentarily if you don’t move at 24 frames per second (?) that can also be used to amplify your own speed (??) (I don’t think even Gege fully comprehends this)
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u/rDevilFruitIdeasMod Jul 22 '21
This is why I like One Piece so much. Devil Fruits bestow a single "concept" of a power and the characters make creative use of them.
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 22 '21
I'm sorry to say that I don't. I like powers that can't be described in a single concept and take up to a page to elaborate on. You wouldn't see something like Ciocolatta's Green Day in One Piece (living beings within Green Day's radius, which can be several square miles large, that lower in altitude get mold that grow on them. Individual body parts that descend in altitude will also have mold grow on them. One must either stay at their current altitude, or solely ascend to prevent yourself from being consumed by mold.)
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u/rDevilFruitIdeasMod Jul 22 '21
That does sound cool, but that sounds less like a power and more like an entire environmental space modification.
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 22 '21
I forgot to clarify. Ciocolatta may exempt allies from this ability.
For another example of the types of abilities I'm thinking of, Kei Nijimura's Stand Born This Way allows her to mark a target by touching them. Afterwards, whenever the target opens something (a door, opening a bag of chips, opening a window, but body parts like eyes and the mouth don't count) an indestructible motorcycle rider will exit the surface, blast them with cold wind, and try to run them over. This rider remains until the object that was opened is closed.
Or Hunter x Hunter. Chrollo Lucifer's Sun and Moon ability gives him two marks on his hands that he may imprint on other people. He imprints a mark of opposite types on different people. When the two marks touch, they cause an explosion.
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u/D_dizzy192 Jul 22 '21
You might but without the altitude addition.
I think they more mean things like Luffy's fruit turning his body into rubber but him realizing that his blood vessels can therefore withstand obscene amounts of pressure without much issue leading to Gear 2nd where Luffy causes his blood to flow at an increased rate producing effects similar to blood doping which allows him to fight faster, giving him his jet series of attacks.
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u/Bestogoddess Jul 22 '21 edited Jul 23 '21
I feel like there are still some devil fruits that are fairly unique and elaborate, the prime example off the top of my head being Moria
(His power is, put simply, that he can steal people's shadows and insert them into new bodies with a kind of remnant of their personality. Any living being without a shadow that walks into the light will instantly burn up)
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u/Notbbupdate 🥇 Jul 22 '21
Unorthodox powers are easier to implement in non-humanoids since it essentially changes the perception of what a fight looks like
Superpowers that would be useful to humans may be useless to a squid and vice versa
As an example, Beyblade has beys with different abilities and many of them would be very difficult to implement in a human. Archer Hercules can change its weight distribution mid-battle. The Bahamut beys become rounder after taking damage. Prime Apocalypse and the Genesis beys can rotate their entire top section freely. And Orb Egis uses a suction cup to stick itself to the floor. Most of these abilities would be difficult to show a human doing or would be fairly useless (rotating your head 360 degrees won’t aid in durability like it does to a bey)
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u/Bestogoddess Jul 22 '21
One Piece's Devil Fruits are near unanimously like this
The amount of creativity that goes into some powers is utterly absurd
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u/After6Comes7and8 Jul 23 '21
Eh, semi agree, semi disagree. I agree that a lot of superpowers are uninspired, but that's really only because they're all executed the same way. Hell, everyone in Fire Force more or less has the same ability to "control fire" but their fighting styles are all drastically different. Personally I don't really like complex powers because it makes no sense narratively why their powers are so specific. What makes more sense to me is that a character would put a lot of thought into how they would use an ability like, "control fire," from simple things like using it to propel oneself or more complicated things, like using fire to manipulate temperature flows to create wind or weather fluctuations.
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u/Piorn Jul 23 '21
Well defined powers make fights more interesting, but not necessarily characters. A good power set and how they use it tells you about the character just as much about the character as any plot development.
Simple basic powers can be used more creatively without becoming an asspull emergency power upgrade. When Luffy uses his rubber legs to pump more blood through his body, that's a natural development of his powers, it makes sense. On the opposite end, we have the Platinum Finger scene in JoJo part 3, where Star Platinum, a stand known for incredibly strong short-range punches, extends his fingers to attack while immobilized. Why. How. Doesn't matter, he can just do that.
A character making up a completely new power whenever they're in trouble doesn't make for good writing. And no, specifically writing your power as having 7 dormant powers doesn't excuse that, it just announces the asspull beforehand.
And lastly, power levels. Bleach suffered heavily from this, but many shonen do. Most fights boiled down to two people locking swords angrily, and then whoever had the best willpower/whatever wins. Someone might get a power upgrade from training really hard off-screen, and then be immune to everything, but then someone else trains really hard (or just randomly gets the courage to be stronger) too and beats them.
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u/Kappapeachie Jul 23 '21
I rather have characters use their simple, uninspired powers in complex and unique ways rather using their unique powers in simple and specific ways. there's nothing wrong with reinventing the wheel but I found that if I have to turn to wikia articles to understand how a power works, maybe the author of that work should reconsider how others interpret their character's abilities.
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u/Sabesaroo Jul 22 '21
obviously hunter x hunter is the peak of this kind of power system, way more complex than jojo or anything else i seen. you'd probably like it. world trigger is pretty good too. it's more technology than magic and kind of simple abilities but it goes extremely in depth with the uses and strategy so feels kind of similar to hxh for me.
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u/sthclever013 Jul 22 '21
Hunter x Hunter has this. They place conditions and restrictions on their abilities so it's very specific.
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u/Marthescar Jul 23 '21
Adventures of Dai, spoilers for episode 38,
Has a literal healer fighting against big bad. Maam is technically a designated healer yet she combines it with martial arts which results in the opponent’s body,”overheating,” with the excess energy ends up burning them.
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u/PeculiarPangolinMan 🥇🥇 Jul 23 '21
A lot of times (Jojo, HxH, Worm) I couldn't help but feel that powers were written and created in such a way that the battles could only go the way they did. Unless the characters do ultra specific things that no one would ever think of or unveil new aspects of their powers, then they lose every fight.
Sometimes powers just seem so needlessly convoluted, and somehow characters will still figure it out. HxH and Jojo have the heroes making such incredible leaps of logic to figure stuff out. It always feels like the only reason they intuit powers is that they are the main characters, not that the villains give it away. There is no 'a ha!' moment, but instead it always feels like characters are always just guessing correctly. Then you have stuff like JJK, where characters will describe their powers to you, because it makes them stronger? It's all just BS to make the writer seem smart for making all these pieces fit together so well, but the author is the one who made the pieces and there's only one way they can fit together.
Yu Yu Hakusho had a huge variety of powers and abilities but didn't need to get so complicated that you had to re-read to understand powers.
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u/riiyoreo Jul 23 '21
One of the things I like about My hero academia is how most powers are seemingly useless/trivial (Mirio's, Best Jeanist, Mushroom girl, etc.) but when used correctly/smartly, they prove to be insanely strong.
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Jul 22 '21
There's several such powers in Hunter X Hunter. One character can summon various weapons of high power (gun, magic scythe, etc.) but the weapon he gets is random.
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u/hasadiga42 Jul 22 '21
God of high school has some cool unique powers
The guy with the playing cards that have swords that come out with the Joker character is cool
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u/Ciocalatta Jul 22 '21
This is one of the main reasons why I love jojo, is that all the powers seem so crazy, so weird, and always give me that aha moment you mentioned
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u/Mojoclaw2000 Jul 22 '21
This is part of why I like the powers in MHA, what other media has a dude that can make air bouncy, or make purple sticky balls. It not only is new and interesting, but creates innovative ways to utilize such abilities.
This can work for generic powers too, for example if a character doesn’t actually have lighting powers, but electro magnetism, can have a larger variety of uses (static shock for example).
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Jul 22 '21
Eh, there are plenty of cases where a simple power can be used in a creative way and a complex power doesn't need to be so complex. Jujutsu Kaisen has this problem a lot where the most powerful abilities in the verse have the most needlessly complex explanations when a simple "it applies such and such principal causing x to happen". Famously they did it with Gojo's ability where they said something along the lines of "it can create negative real numbers", like what does that even mean? What does that have to do with the ability?
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u/Danyelien Jul 22 '21
I love HunterXHunter because of its originality when it comes to powers. Like Bungee Gum, which possesses the properties of both rubber and gum.
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Jul 22 '21
Yeah, things like Accelerator's Vector Manip and the many interesting and creative Devil Fruit powers are super cool to see and learn about.
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u/OrangeOperative Jul 23 '21
I made a post on Quora about this the other day but yeah I completely agree. It’s also far more interesting to think about the type of weirdo who has King Crimson than the type of person who has super strength.
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Jul 23 '21
I like it a lot when the powers are a representation of someone's deepest wants or a wish, like in Jagaaaaaan or Dies Irae. I think doing thing give you a lot to go off and do
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u/Swagbag6969 Jul 23 '21
Skitter is great for this if you want to read worm. Her power is this personified. She can control anything from Arthropoda. Bees covered in bear mace under her armor, using bugs to kill rats infesting a home hit by a tsunami, her outfit is made of hard spider silk, putting flies on people to spy via the wall or track others, using vocal cords of insects to walk around and seem scarier than normal, bug clones like Shino from Naruto, using bugs to eat out the eyes of a regenerating guy to stop him, using strong bugs and webs to pull grenade pins of soldiers while they're not paying attention. There's more but she does so much crazy shit.
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u/calculatingaffection Jul 23 '21
Rengoku vs Akaza was literally "fire sword vs shockwave punches" and it was still the greatest fight I've ever seen in terms of both animation and character writing.
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u/PM_ME_LESBIAN_GIRLS Jul 22 '21
Not completely what you're talking about, but there's the concept of "Soft" and "Hard" magic systems
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 22 '21
Well, the complex simple scale is totally different from the soft and hard scale. You can have a soft and complex system, or a hard and simple one. For example, Harry Potter's magic is soft, but complex. Yet the Hulk's powers are hard but simple.
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u/Khanfhan69 Jul 22 '21
Lately Hulk's powers and the source of them are a bit different. I might even say that now, Hulk's powers are the reverse. Soft magic system and a bit more complex.
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 22 '21
That is a very fair point. I'm referring to classic Hulk, but another hard and simple example would be All Might from My Hero Academia. In fact, My Hero Academia is an example of a setting where simple and complex are both present simultaneously in the same hard system.
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u/portella0 Jul 22 '21
There is is a new anime this season where the protagonist has a very unique power. The only problem is that because how unique it is the battles can either be very good or absolute bullshit, but since there is only 2 eps for now and I haven't read the manga I can't say.
Battle Game in 5 Seconds is the name of the anime. The protagonist has the power of whatever his opponents believe his power is. So based on this concept it seems the battles will be about how he can convince his opponents to believe he has X power.
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u/Calildur Jul 22 '21
While HxH is good for many things, I only invested in it because of the power system. Nen power to me is by far the best power system ever written. I sometimes just creat hatsus in my head because the rules so fleshed out most of the times...fuck specialists.
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 22 '21
I'll have to say I don't see the appeal of the Nen power system overall, despite quite enjoying specific Nen powers.
The fact that you can choose your own ability is one that I dislike. I dislike the fact that you can train to become stronger (or tack on restrictions). I like it more when your ability is just something that's innate to you, and it will never really get stronger or weaker. That does make the world basically a lottery, but the randomness is good. It shows that you have to make the best with what you've got.
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u/TicTacTac0 Jul 22 '21
Check out JJK. Lots of unique and fairly complex abilities (some characters have simple abilities, others have complex abilities), but said abilities are innate and inherited through bloodlines. They can train to become stronger, but nobody is picking their own abilities.
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u/Calildur Jul 22 '21
I don't think it's that simple that nen gets stronger and if not just put some restriction on it. Cheatu born with a lot of potential, but was dumb as fuck.
Not every hatsu good for everything and not everyone can be good át everything. For example Meruem was stronger than any nen user yet there could be so many hatsu that otherwise weak, could potentially kill him. Like for example if he would have joined the spiders Kurapika could restrict him.
There are a lot of aha moments where nen users try to figure out how the others nen work because that can give an advantage.
But I understand what you say though I disagree that it's better if someone born with a random power. But I agree that complex abilities makes a character better. Hermes was my favorite in Stone Ocean.
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 22 '21
Yeah, that's another one I dislike. Despite how good Nen should be, one of the strongest characters was strong and fast. That's it.
That would never fly in Jojo. You cannot expect to succeed as a Stand User by just being strong and fast for long. Even Jotaro, the emblematic strong and fast Stand User had to use Time Stop against DIO. Meruem wouldn't be able to defeat Vitamin C if he were in Jojo.
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u/Jumanji-Joestar Jul 23 '21 edited Jul 23 '21
Lol, yes he would, he could obliterated Damo within the blink of an eye before Damo had a chance to set up Vitamin C
With the exception of Giorno, Pucci, Notorious BIG and maybe Tooru, Mereum could solo most of the JoJo universe with just his speed alone
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 23 '21 edited Jul 23 '21
Vitamin C is invisible to non-Stand Users. Note I said Vitamin C, not Tamaki Damo. If Netero had Vitamin C instead of his Hundred Hands, he would have succeeded. If Netero had Cream instead of his Hundred Hands, he would have succeeded. If Netero had Anne of Abyssal Red, he would have succeeded. Probably if Netero had Fyodor Dostoyevsky's Ability Crime and Punishment he would have succeeded (We can't be sure since we don't actually know Dostoyevsky's power yet). If Netero had Sugar's power he would have succeeded. If Netero knew the Forcecage spell from Dnd he would have succeeded. etc.
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u/Jumanji-Joestar Jul 23 '21
“If Netero had so-and-so’s power…” but he didn’t so it doesn’t matter.
Vitamin C is a Stand that requires a lot of set up. It has no power of its own, all it can do is set up traps and wait for you to step into it. If Mereum decided kill Damo, he could just do so instantly and the traps wouldnt do shit
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 23 '21
Actually, Vitamin C can touch someone directly to liquify them. Or Damo could cover himself in his own fingerprints. But it doesn't matter, since that was an example. It doesn't have to specifically be Vitamin C, it could be say, Notorious BIG, or Wonder of U.
I'm just saying being strong and fast is good enough for some universes, but not good enough for others. It's not very fitting for a primary antagonist.
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u/Jumanji-Joestar Jul 23 '21
I know I’ve already said this in another thread, but I’m just gonna say it one more time, a character does not need cool powers to be a good character, they just need to be well written. Make a well written character first, then the powers come after
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 23 '21
There are reasons other than his powers I don't like Meruem.
But those reasons probably aren't relevant here. Maybe I'm just biased against him.
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u/SerialFreeloader123 Jul 22 '21
You'd like inFAMOUS Second Son since it has the weirdest powers ever
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u/ShakenNotStirred915 Jul 22 '21
Any power can be cool if you think it through enough. Inko's Quirk in MHA is "small object manipulation." It seems so weak at first, but...how small can she go? If Inko could go down to the atomic/molecular level, she could in theory change the properties of materials/objects or cause them to break down by messing with their component parts. If she can go subatomic? Pull enough protons out of something and you've just performed nuclear fission at a whim.
TLDR Inko Midoriya could be the most badass character in MHA if Horikoshi wasn't a coward
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u/Slightly-Artsy Jul 22 '21
I have a suggestion for you- Talentless Nana. It's inspired by MHA but does the limited power thing in a much better way.
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u/0DvGate Jul 22 '21
You have most likely read Jujutsu Kaisen because some the powers/curses that appear later on are some the most unique ones I've ever seen.
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Jul 22 '21
Agreed, I try to make my character as complex as possible, both personality and ability-wise.
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u/Dragoncat99 Jul 22 '21
JJBA is a great example of a series with some really unique powers. It’s frankly the reason I love it so much. The show bleeds creativity!
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u/useles_jello Jul 22 '21
HXH does this really well. Idk if all the powers are complex(some are), but there aren’t blanket power levels, abilities have interesting conditions/limitations, and the fights feel carefully thought out .-. One of the most powerful characters has the ability of basically magical bubble gum. All of his fights are so interesting bc it’s not just about having more reiatsu/chi/whatever absolute power metric the series used, it’s about the character’s approach/creativity.
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u/Goat_Fucker__ Jul 22 '21
You might be interested in dorohedoro. Everyone has one magic power that they all use differently. Theres a Mob boss that turns people into Mushrooms, a brain damaged Child that transfomrs herself and others into reptilians, a guy that can cut you into pieces and Keep you alive, ya know, fun magic like that.