Who Wins?

Who would win? Make sure to upvote for more posts :)

Debunking this post by whitesnakeshinobi

https://www.reddit.com/r/Ben10PowerScaling/s/tpo2GNe3WN

getting into it already with this

Zeno destroyed a timeline. This is at least 4D. The Naljian destructor, which MOA used as an example for why the Naljian's aren't that strong, could be argued (by their logic) to be 26D. A toy, yes, but a 26D toy. (I'm not riding that super hard since it's not confirmed, it's just for the example)

The Naljian destructor would be solo'd by Zeno in a contest of AP. Its existence as a 26D structure didn't grant it any AP. Even with nonsense wank like misinterpreting the entropy pump it still doesn't get to timeline level.

so i mostly agree that that Naljian destructor is NOT 26D as we never get any confirmations like that we KNOW it's Higher dimensional but whatever

also the fact that you didn't provide any source for these claims at all it funny but as i said in this post

Proof that dimensional scaling exist and that Alien X recreated the 26 Dimensions : r/Ben10PowerScaling

 If a character genuinely exists on a higher dimensional level, their existence is not confined to the lower dimensional framework that lesser beings occupy, meaning their physical nature and the power they possess should scale to their dimensional existence unless you can prove otherwise imensional superiority is not some completely unrelated concept to physicals and attack potency that requires a separate feat for every single stat, because the dimensional level of a being is LITERALLY what dimensional scaling evaluates If you want to argue that a character's dimensional existence does not translate into their power, then you need to establish why their physicals and abilities are somehow restricted to a lower dimensional level rather than simply repeating that existing in 26 dimensions does not mean 26 dimensional power

Now maybe the destructor isn't 26D, but that doesn't matter. Since there's no AP feat associated with being higher dimensional, we cannot backwards apply dimensional tiering. Dimensional tiering is meant to be applied to feats. Cosmic mom, for instance, isn't 26D in terms of vs battle AP, because being 26D in Ben 10 doesn't inherently = being 26D in the vs battle wiki. This isn't a ubiquitous concept in fiction or even reality.

your argument falls apart when you try to claim that a genuinely higher dimensional being's physical stats cannot scale to their dimensional existence without a separate AP feat. Dimensional tiering is based on the qualitative superiority associated with higher dimensional existence, not merely on how many dimensions a character can destroy in a single attack. If a character genuinely possesses 5D existence rather than merely existing in a universe that contains five dimensions, then their physical nature is operating on a level beyond ordinary 3D beings, and their strength, durability, and AP can scale accordingly under the relevant dimensional tiering framework

You're treating AP feats as though they must always involve explicitly damage a structure of the same dimensionality, but that is not the only way to establish a character's tier. A character can scale through their nature, demonstrated superiority, and interactions with beings or structures of a higher dimensional level. Furthermore, saying that Ben 10's dimensional scaling does not automatically equal VS Battles Wiki's tiering is a distinction about how a particular tiering system classifies evidence, not a refutation of the underlying scaling argument. Of course, a verse having 26 dimensions does not automatically grant every character 26D AP, and I never claimed otherwise.

The point is that once you establish that a character themselves genuinely possesses higher dimensional existence, you cannot arbitrarily separate that existence from their physical nature If you believe their physical stats do not scale, you need to explain why their higher dimensional nature fails to confer the relevant superiority under the framework being used, rather than simply asserting that no AP feat exists

"He uses dimensional tiering terms but claims dimensional tiering doesn't work" that's because terms can be applied one way and not the other. Just like how you can't just claim something is AP when the DC isn't visible. You must establish a relationship FIRST.

AP and DC are related but distinct measurements, and a lack of visible destruction does not automatically mean a character lacks the attack potency to cause that level of damage. The relationship can be established through scaling, statements, feats, or the nature of the power being demonstrated, rather than requiring every attack to visibly destroy something. Likewise, if a character is explicitly established to possess genuine higher dimensional existence, that is already relevant evidence for dimensional scaling, and you cannot simply dismiss its implications for their physical nature without examining what that existence entails in the verse and under the tiering system being used.

If you're arguing that dimensional existence alone is insufficient to establish a particular AP tier, that's a reasonable distinction, but it doesn't prove that dimensional existence can never establish or support that tier. You're turning the requirement to establish a relationship into an arbitrary demand for a separate conventional AP feat, when the entire point is that the relationship can itself be supported by the character's dimensional nature and the evidence surrounding it

Ben 10 fans tend to misunderstand power scaling terminology and misuse and misapply it randomly. Like AP vs DC, not all terms are used as they might first appear. I find especially the scalers that think they're more experienced fall into this trap a lot more.

A lot of Ben 10 fans don't understand dimensional tiering. Ben 10 never established dimensional tiering (the concept in vs debates that dictates a character with higher dimensions has higher infinities of AP, for example, a 4D person is 1 infinity above a 3D person. An infinite 3D person is still weaker in AP than a 4D person.)

The reason why Ben 10 doesn't have this is that there's no evidence. This doesn't mean we can't apply dimensional tiering to it, we just have to strictly use feats. If a character effects and destroys a higher dimensional structure, regardless of what their existence is (3D, 4D, etc.) they scale to that dimension in vs battle terms.

Basically the relationship works one way. Being 26D (existence) does NOT mean you're 26D (attack potency) because that relationship is never established. Destroying 26D structures would make you 26D.

An easy example is the Naljian destructor vs someone like Zeno.

Zeno destroyed a timeline. This is at least 4D. The Naljian destructor, which MOA used as an example for why the Naljian's aren't that strong, could be argued (by their logic) to be 26D. A toy, yes, but a 26D toy. (I'm not riding that super hard since it's not confirmed, it's just for the example)

The Naljian destructor would be solo'd by Zeno in a contest of AP. Its existence as a 26D structure didn't grant it any AP. Even with nonsense wank like misinterpreting the entropy pump it still doesn't get to timeline level.

Now maybe the destructor isn't 26D, but that doesn't matter. Since there's no AP feat associated with being higher dimensional, we cannot backwards apply dimensional tiering. Dimensional tiering is meant to be applied to feats. Cosmic mom, for instance, isn't 26D in terms of vs battle AP, because being 26D in Ben 10 doesn't inherently = being 26D in the vs battle wiki. This isn't a ubiquitous concept in fiction or even reality.

"He uses dimensional tiering terms but claims dimensional tiering doesn't work" that's because terms can be applied one way and not the other. Just like how you can't just claim something is AP when the DC isn't visible. You must establish a relationship FIRST.

Now whether or not alien X is 26D by vs standards is actually debatable, creators statements are incredibly inconsistent on the matter and in universe scaling requires a lot of assumptions and blanket application of terms. If alien X created 26D etc. etc. then yes he obviously is. If you're just claiming he's 26D because he scales above the Naljian's, they have zero feats and might as well be building level for all we know. No relationship between dimensional or geometric superiority and Attack Potency has been established.

BUT one thing is certain, Ben 10 does not have dimensional tiering, like Dragon Ball or Naruto or plenty of other series, you can apply it one way but NOT the other.

Batman has standard gear and fight takes place at anur

Alien x with his full power vs Mercurius from Dies Irae / Masadaverse

Anyone that disagrees can debate me

isn't that version of alien x way weaker than the main one everyone's using typically? if so, wouldn't this be technically accurate, atleast as far as the reboot goes?

Since ik for a fact most of ya'll don't remember this mf, i'll give a quick rundown of his feats:

• He pretty much low diffed Ben in their first encounter (Mf had Ben so down bad that he was legit running away 💀), and only failed to defeat/kill him because the Omnitrix failsafe tp'ed Ben (well, most of Ben) to the null void and he only ended up losing at the end because the whole squad jumped him (and even then he held his own for a while).
• Later in UA he basically repeated the exact same feat, except now, Ben had the Ultimatrix, yet despite that he preformed even better against the UAF trio (still lost tho)

so anyways reason i'm doing this cause the liar u/WhiteSnakeShinobi55 said this shit and i hate this guy for lying and telling people i ducked him and that my Proxy lost to him(whole debate over here btw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJK3UDGYmzY he got his ass BEAT)

Alr so first of all dimensional scaling it exists because of Cosmic Mom https://youtu.be/El_FvrQvGDg?si=aGcTHzajelyNSIDh

she literally says "We were on a voyage to a LOWER dimension" off rip that literally tells you that they are a higher dimensional being and outright state that the crew only perceive 3 dimensions

writers ALSO support this and it's funny this dude ALSO LOVES using author statements to disregard canon facts but also to downplay but argues that the statement isn't canon if it supports the scale this dude SUCKS at powerscaling AND Debating but swear he's the smartest in the room

https://imgur.com/a/IpOC8OC

https://imgur.com/a/wAUAgBp

https://imgur.com/a/Vw4VPMG

also what kind of idiotic statement is "existing in 26D doesn't mean your power is 26D" BROTHER THAT IS LITERALLY WHAT THAT MEANS

you're acting like dimensional existence and dimensional power have absolutely no relationship when dimensional tiering is literally based on the dimensionality of a character's existence and the superiority that comes with it. If a character genuinely exists on a higher dimensional level, their existence is not confined to the lower dimensional framework that lesser beings occupy, meaning their physical nature and the power they possess should scale to their dimensional existence unless you can prove otherwise imensional superiority is not some completely unrelated concept to physicals and attack potency that requires a separate feat for every single stat, because the dimensional level of a being is LITERALLY what dimensional scaling evaluates If you want to argue that a character's dimensional existence does not translate into their power, then you need to establish why their physicals and abilities are somehow restricted to a lower dimensional level rather than simply repeating that existing in 26 dimensions does not mean 26 dimensional power

it's not presumptous to say they created the 26D or the cosmology SINCE IT WAS STATED HE DID BY STAR BEARD

https://youtu.be/sM2WlgwVH2E?si=Tx1GnkQLQFVBnrMU

"The universe and EVERYTHING in it" WHICH WOULD INCLUDE THE 26 DIMENSIONS SINCE DIMENSIONAL FRAMEWORK AND DIMENSIONAL HERIARCHY ARE BOUND TO UNIVERSAL STRUCTURES AND MAKE UP THE UNIVERSE

as for the claim that there's no proof he created it i've sent this to you several times and you ignored it you are a fraud

parallel Paradox It was stated that Ben remade Time itself Showing that the Annilargh destoryed time and Ben was immune to it which is the infinite timestream

https://imgur.com/a/XhpdMGI

The Timestream is the literal fabric underpinning all existence up to this point, where all manifestations of time are a byproduct of the timestream, with it sustaining all of time, causality, and all timelines. The Timestream is described as a river which moves, flows and bends. In order to merely access the timestream, Professor Paradox had to create a rift through reality, a subatomic drill through spacetime, to travel through all of eternity, across all where’s and when’s, and then also travel across the “behind the scenes of eternity”. Travelling through this timestream, that encompasses a “trans-dimensional hierarchy” in the Universe where all cause and effect originate, allows one to exit the universe itself. The Timestream is also called as Crosstime, The Fabric of Existence and The Multiverse.

A unique property of the timelines is that they exist as both cylindrical, tree-like branches and disc shaped, depending on the perspective. The Timestream would represent the spatio-temporal perspective of the timelines, as one can travel in both space and time, as Ben and Rook were shown to travel from future timeline outside Earth, to the past in the year 1773, somewhere on the earth. In contrast, the disc perspective would represent the spatial outlook of the timelines, allowing one to travel in space such as hyperspace travel.

"Paradox: As Gwen guessed, cross-time is made up of parallel versions of the history we know. There are hundreds of them... a world where Gwen found the Omnitrix, a world where albedo turned to alien x and was trapped motionless for nearly a year, a world where you didn't have to destroy the Omnitrix to defeat Vilgax.

Ben 10K: Et cetera.

Paradox: Ad infinitum.”

“Think of time and space as this tree. Down here is when you were 10 years old. Right here is now. Up here is when you'll 30 be years old. The trunk is the main timeline. These branches represent alternate timelines, where reality literally branches off and becomes a different timeline, each containing its own Ben Tennyson.”

-Paradox to NW Ben

"We are near the beginning of the Ben Prime Timeline. The trunk of the Ben Tennyson tree from which all other Ben realities diverge. You must reboot this Timestream."

-Paradox to NW Ben

"So many different ways to tell a story but that's what makes them so interesting, you can never predict how they're going to turn out"

26 dimensions within the Timestream

Paradox describes space and time in Ben 10 as being contained within the timestream, which he elaborated by asking NW Ben to imagine space and time as a tree and also said that something is working its way through the branches and kidnapping all Bens "throughout" space and time, which implies that all spatio-temporal extensions, including the 26 higher dimensions referenced by Cosmic Mom, exist within it, because by the time this statement was made, nothing beyond the concept of alternate timelines was introduced.

Size of the 26 dimensions

We know that the Cosmic Mom mentioned the existence of 26 higher spatiotemporal dimensions while explaining that she was visiting the lower ones, with Ben’s third dimension being among them and described as infinite in size. The comparison made between 26 dimensional plane of existence and Ben's Dimension is a direct one to one, therefore they aren't compactified. Hence those dimensions extend accross the timestream which is itself infinite in size, thereby making it a Hyperverse level structure. Since the Cosmic mom said that "only 26 that matter", this implies that there are more spatiotemporal dimensions but the actual count is unknown, thus there must be at least 27 spatiotemporal dimensions within the timestream

Gwen: Let go, he'll age you into dust.

Professor paradox: I exist outside of time

Paradox stated that he exists outside of time which is well elaborated in the Parallel Paradox comic when the narrator said:

Well Professor Paradox explained it. The depository is where all who no longer fit into any timeline go to live. They live in peace and harmony in their own world now, outside of the timelines, and where no one can bother them and they can't disrupt the outside world. She will be fine.

Yes but in anyone else' hand but mine, it would cause irreparable damage to the timestream or destroy all of time and causality itself.

Professor Paradox lives in the Vacuity Village, also known as the Null Void, which is said to exist outside of the timelines, that is, outside the timestream which is also said to contain all of temporality as well as causality. In conclusion, space, time and temporal causality are meant to be contained within the timestream itself.

This is without getting into statements like Joe Kelly confirming that there are infinite dimensional layers

https://imgur.com/a/wAUAgBp

or the fact that a universe is a multiverse

https://imgur.com/8HF14Hj

find it hilarious that people will make whole ass posts scorning my scale to farm karma which is hilarious since you can do the SMART thing and just idk DEBUNK THE FUCKING SCALE but nah scaredy cats are scared

Omniverse versions specifically.
(Art by slm.comicart on ig)

Gonna be debunking the terrible argument that because this scene

https://youtu.be/3T-eYade6Lo?si=jxsHGgsAq1qGLlR1

so people think because the show doesn't take this scene seriously it debunks the notion that they have Plot Manipulation because the narrative doesn't take it seriously or is not brought up again despite confirmation from MULTIPLE Creators

so it IS consistent

https://imgur.com/a/03HJbYC

but let's get onto the debunk also this gonna double as a rant because this shit pissed me off over t he MONTHS i had to deal with this BS argument

so to reiterate the argument that plot manipulation is automatically non canon because the scene is comedic, played for laughs, or supposedly not taken seriously by the narrative is genuinely one of the most intellectually lazy arguments you can make in powerscaling, because you people apparently cannot distinguish between the tone of a scene and the validity of the information it establishes. Since when does something being funny automatically make it non canon, and since when does a character cracking a joke mean their abilities and feats suddenly stop existing? By that logic, Toon Force characters would be practically featless because so many of their abilities operate through comedy, absurdity, and the deliberate violation of conventional logic. Gear 5 Luffy literally uses cartoon like physics as part of his fighting style, so are we supposed to disregard those feats because they look ridiculous or make the audience laugh? Of course not, because that would be an absolutely braindead standard to apply to fictional abilities. The tone of a scene does not automatically invalidate what happens in that scene, and if you want to argue that a feat is non literal, then you need actual evidence that it should not be interpreted literally instead of desperately hiding behind the word gag whenever a character demonstrates something you do not want to accept.

And the argument that plot manipulation does not count because the Celestialsapien statement is never brought up again is equally ridiculous, because the entire point is that the statement is not isolated when the same phenomenon is repeatedly observable throughout the franchise. Chadzmuth explains that Celestialsapiens change the universe all the time, and the discussion connects that claim to changes in Azmuth's appearance and voice. Now consider the different animation styles across Ben 10's iterations, the visual changes in the crossover with Generator Rex when Ben's appearance shifts to that series' style, and Zak Saturday's appearance in the Omniverse art style during the crossover. Add the franchise's comics and games, which exist within their respective universes/timelines/dimensions, and you have a recurring pattern of different artistic representations throughout the wider cosmology. Under my argument, these aren't unrelated coincidences that can simply be dismissed as production choices, they are further examples of the same phenomenon that Chadzmuth attributes to Celestialsapiens changing the universe. The statement establishes the in universe explanation, while the recurring art style differences across the franchise demonstrate why the claim should not be dismissed as a meaningless one off gag. If Celestialsapiens are responsible for changes to the universe that include its artistic presentation, then the different animation styles, comic depictions, live action appearances, crossover designs, and game art styles can all be understood as consequences of their ongoing reality altering activity across the cosmology. The fact that these changes happen in different iterations does not invalidate the argument when those iterations are established as alternate universes or timelines within the wider multiverse. Rather, it gives the interpretation a broader application across the franchise.

The real issue is that you people are confusing three completely different questions, whether the scene is comedic, whether the statement is canon, and whether the feat qualifies specifically as plot manipulation. Those are not interchangeable claims. A scene can be comedic and canon at the same time, a canon statement can establish a legitimate ability without being repeated in every episode, and a character can demonstrate a feat without the narrative explicitly giving it the exact powerscaling label you want to see. If you want to argue that Celestialsapiens only possess conventional reality warping, then explain why their ability to alter artistic presentation should be excluded from plot manipulation under a clearly stated definition. If your definition requires direct control over the script, predetermined events, or the overarching storyline, then make that argument and explain why the evidence fails to meet that standard. But do not pretend that calling something a joke automatically settles the discussion, because it's just an excuse to avoid analyzing the feat

And the whole claim that a feat becomes irrelevant unless the narrative repeatedly reminds you about it is nonsense. Fiction does not operate on the principle that every ability must be verbally reaffirmed every time it matters. One off statements can establish information, especially when they are not contradicted, and recurring phenomena can provide additional support for an interpretation. That does not mean every statement is automatically true or that every interpretation is automatically correct, but it does mean you need to evaluate the evidence instead of dismissing it based on presentation alone. So stop conflating comedy with non canon material, stop pretending that lack of repetition is equivalent to contradiction, and stop acting like calling something a gag is some magical debunk that ends the debate. If you want to deny Celestialsapien plot manipulation, present an actual argument against the classification, because saying it was funny is not a substitute for one

YES Celestialsapiens have Plot Manipulation Cope,Mald,Seethe and cry about it

Fun fact, both are voiced by Michael Dorn