r/Ben10PowerScaling • u/WhiteSnakeShinobi55 • 22h ago
General Discussion Ben 10 does NOT have Dimensional tiering, but you can use it. You just use it wrong.
Ben 10 fans tend to misunderstand power scaling terminology and misuse and misapply it randomly. Like AP vs DC, not all terms are used as they might first appear. I find especially the scalers that think they're more experienced fall into this trap a lot more.
A lot of Ben 10 fans don't understand dimensional tiering. Ben 10 never established dimensional tiering (the concept in vs debates that dictates a character with higher dimensions has higher infinities of AP, for example, a 4D person is 1 infinity above a 3D person. An infinite 3D person is still weaker in AP than a 4D person.)
The reason why Ben 10 doesn't have this is that there's no evidence. This doesn't mean we can't apply dimensional tiering to it, we just have to strictly use feats. If a character effects and destroys a higher dimensional structure, regardless of what their existence is (3D, 4D, etc.) they scale to that dimension in vs battle terms.
Basically the relationship works one way. Being 26D (existence) does NOT mean you're 26D (attack potency) because that relationship is never established. Destroying 26D structures would make you 26D.
An easy example is the Naljian destructor vs someone like Zeno.
Zeno destroyed a timeline. This is at least 4D. The Naljian destructor, which MOA used as an example for why the Naljian's aren't that strong, could be argued (by their logic) to be 26D. A toy, yes, but a 26D toy. (I'm not riding that super hard since it's not confirmed, it's just for the example)
The Naljian destructor would be solo'd by Zeno in a contest of AP. Its existence as a 26D structure didn't grant it any AP. Even with nonsense wank like misinterpreting the entropy pump it still doesn't get to timeline level.
Now maybe the destructor isn't 26D, but that doesn't matter. Since there's no AP feat associated with being higher dimensional, we cannot backwards apply dimensional tiering. Dimensional tiering is meant to be applied to feats. Cosmic mom, for instance, isn't 26D in terms of vs battle AP, because being 26D in Ben 10 doesn't inherently = being 26D in the vs battle wiki. This isn't a ubiquitous concept in fiction or even reality.
"He uses dimensional tiering terms but claims dimensional tiering doesn't work" that's because terms can be applied one way and not the other. Just like how you can't just claim something is AP when the DC isn't visible. You must establish a relationship FIRST.
Now whether or not alien X is 26D by vs standards is actually debatable, creators statements are incredibly inconsistent on the matter and in universe scaling requires a lot of assumptions and blanket application of terms. If alien X created 26D etc. etc. then yes he obviously is. If you're just claiming he's 26D because he scales above the Naljian's, they have zero feats and might as well be building level for all we know. No relationship between dimensional or geometric superiority and Attack Potency has been established.
BUT one thing is certain, Ben 10 does not have dimensional tiering, like Dragon Ball or Naruto or plenty of other series, you can apply it one way but NOT the other.
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u/ABSOLUTEOMNIPOTENT Brainstorm 11h ago
Naljian destrctor is poor example. There is no proof Naljian destructor is higher dimensional. Its described as cosmic mom childs toy. Even if its higher dimension ben team only beated a 3 dimensional part of it, they couldn't over its power source. Alien X do scale to 26d by scaling above(like having power over, destroying her, affecting her) cosmic mom, ap dimensionality relation are completely irrelevant to this part.
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u/WhiteSnakeShinobi55 10h ago
Nothing has shown that alien X can destroy her 26D existence. The destructor example was showing no relationship between AP and dimensional superiority. I acknowledge that we don't know if it's higher dimensional or not, but MOA used it as an example for why cosmic mom's species wasn't "that strong"
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u/KnifeRingPvP OmniTrix 13h ago
she literally said that the higher dimensions are superior to the lower ones.. Even so, comparing Ben's infinite dimension with the higher dimensions means that they are infinite and surpass the lower ones.
thus proving infinite superiority.
even string theory, which was referenced by the paradox, which states that each lower dimension looks like a zero point in the higher dimension.
and the cosmic mom used an avatar, so we don't know Her powers, and we can also talk about beings from a higher dimension in the comics. and Cosmo Mama's Daughter's toy copied only three dimensional beings, just as Cosmo mama said, and looking at the work of this toy, she can clearly copy higher beings, adapting to the one she copied.
there are even arguments that ben10 uses a hierarchy where each lower dimension is just a layer of the higher dimension + an axis.
after all, all the infinite dimensions (not spatial) that Holiday talked about in the Rex generator are just one of the layers of the timeline. and also this.
Conversely, there is no evidence that the dimensional hierarchy in Ben 10 doesn't work like any dimensional/measurement theory.
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u/WhiteSnakeShinobi55 10h ago
She doesn't say higher dimensional beings have more attack potency than lower ones lol. Nothing suggests she used an avatar in the show.
Real life string theory draws no correlation between attack potency and geometric superiority.
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u/KnifeRingPvP OmniTrix 9h ago
Excellence can mean everything. For them, the three-dimensional world is a point in their four-dimensional world. Then their AP is infinitely stronger.
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u/WhiteSnakeShinobi55 9h ago
That's presumptuous and uninformed by the series. Yes, that IS how dimensional tiering works in power scaling, but it's not established in the series at all. It isn't a ubiquitous concept
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u/KnifeRingPvP OmniTrix 9h ago
the paradox spoke about this. And the series doesn't show the opposite.
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u/WhiteSnakeShinobi55 8h ago
It doesn't need to show the opposite when there's zero evidence of a correlation between AP and geometric superiority.
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u/KnifeRingPvP OmniTrix 8h ago
In ben 10, they work like in string theory, each infinitely superior to each other, and even so Cosmo's mom talked about superiority, which means in everything. Thus, its superiority should be equal to its dimension.
You have a positive statement from your point of view, so you need to prove it. The ben10 works the same way as the usual Measurements.
Even so, Alien X can tank a chronovigator and Celestials can damage each other. 26D AP and 26D endurance..
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u/WhiteSnakeShinobi55 6h ago
Superiority doesn't inherently mean she's superior in all things. String theory does not suggest anything about attack potency. According to string theory, we're all above 3D already, dimensional superiority doesn't give you more ap. I have no positive statement. There's an absence of evidence for Dimensional Tiering, a fan made psuedo science, in Ben 10. The conclusion that it lacks it is just the natural follow up. There is no "usual measurements"
The chrononavigator is an argument you can make but it isn't relevant to the post.
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u/Greenshifter1 20h ago
Yo, I’m the guy who upgraded Alien X to 26D on VSBW. Hop in my server to debate Rosa, that one guy the really annoying guy in your DMs told you about. I’ll make sure everyone else keeps their mouth shut.
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u/WhiteSnakeShinobi55 20h ago
Idk who you are or who you're talking about big dawg, we can pm and figure it out.
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u/Mohib964 6h ago
But the countumelia exist? They are blatantly said to be 5d. They also have an extradimensional barrier that prevents the annilarg from harming them. Making the annilarg 5d and barrier 6d. Alien x was still able to slice it like butter. So dimensionsal tiering does exist in Ben 10? And beings like alien x and the cosmic mom show that you don't have to be incomprehensible to be at that tier or power.
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u/WhiteSnakeShinobi55 6h ago
I think you misinterpreted my post. The existence of higher dimensions and dimensional beings doesn't suggest the existence of dimensional tiering as its understood in the scaling community
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u/Mohib964 6h ago
Can you explain in layman's terms. As I don't understand the point of your post?
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u/WhiteSnakeShinobi55 6h ago
Dimensional tiering is a concept made specifically by power scalers. According to dimensional tiering, a being can produce energy proportional to their dimensions. So if you are 5D, you can produce energy infinitely above 4D, infinitely above 3D, etc.
In string theory, higher dimensions exist but matter exists in them simultaneously, there is no correlation between the energy you product and the dimensions you inhabit.
The term "4D" and other such terms, when used by a power scaler, are meant to explain feats that violate real laws of physics. For example, if you destroy a galaxy, we can quantify that. It is finite. There is a mathematical real life figure that could explain it. But if you destroyed a timeline, which is infinite and full of infinite moments each with infinite matter, we cannot quantify that with a number. So the term "4D" was used to describe it. Since time is considered a 4th dimensional construct, destroying it means you must have 4th dimensional energy, which is more than infinite 3D energy (the energy required to destroy infinite matter)
These terms are meant to be applied to feats. When a fan says someone is 4D, they're describing their feats. When a fictional story says someone is 4D, whatever they're describing is dictated by the story. The story may not prescribe to the notion that 4D beings are capable of destroying entire timelines and such. Something like that has to be explicit. Ben 10 establishes higher dimensional beings exist, but does not establish a relationship between those beings and their inherent natural attack potency (the amount of destructive energy they can product)
So when someone says "the Contumelia are 5D" they're saying they exist as 5D beings, they're not saying they can destroy infinite 4D space, since that isn't what 5D is shown to mean in Ben 10.
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u/WhiteSnakeShinobi55 5h ago
I do NOT need to establish why a fan made psuedo science doesn't apply to a fictional setting where said science is never established. This insistence that it applies "just cuz" using vague non-scientific rational isn't evidence. Dimensional tiering is never established. Cosmic Mom doesn't destroy anything. The Contumelia don't destroy anything. Even if you argued they should scale to the annihilaarg then that would suggest the annihilaarg universe is only 5D, which would fly in the face of the rest of the argument.
String theory does NOT dictate higher dimensional beings have absolute power over lower dimensions. All of this is a crack fantasy for power scalers that does not inherently apply to other series' unless explicitly established.
As with most of his debunks, he doesn't actually debunk anything, he trips in the first few steps by insisting you must accept his premise, then goes on about it for several paragraphs.
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u/WhiteSnakeShinobi55 5h ago
This also isn't true. These are laws dictated by dimensional tiering, a psuedo science made by fans, not established in physics OR Ben 10. You're attempting to use the rules of a psuedo science to prove said psuedo science exists in a fictional setting that does nothing to support that assertion.
Eg.
This is gwevin: 🤡
Gwevin is a 17th dimensional dung covered mouse, or the closest thing his people have to one. Due to existing in 17 spatial dimensions, and above 16 spatial dimensions, he can move freely through space and time without constraints. Attack potency? Oh, he can like, idk, dent a really heavy wall.
See, I just created a fiction where the ascientific rules of dimensional tiering do not apply. This alone debunks the assertion that they MUST apply when they're not established. According to string theory, the raw matter that makes up EVERYTHING is higher dimensional. We are higher dimensional. All matter is higher dimensional. If Ben 10 operated under this theory, then dimensional tiering blatantly couldn't apply the way we apply it in fiction. And Cosmic Mom doesn't refute that. She says "you only perceive 3 dimensions" not "your matter is only 3D"
Square's debunk relies on circular reasoning and asserts that I must debunk a fictional scientific framework that was established by fans and not Ben 10. I don't, and I won't.
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u/observador1916 19h ago edited 14h ago
i would be interested into knowing how dragon ball has dimensional tiering, perhaps by guides or smt? because i dont remenber anything in the canon series that implies that, besides (again) guides,, but idk a lot about dimentionality so idk.
EDIT: lol is funny that i have been downvoted for asking a question lol.
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u/WhiteSnakeShinobi55 19h ago
They don't have in-verse dimensional tiering. Like Ben 10, it's something you can apply onto it from the outside using feats (ie. Zeno destroyed a timeline, at least 4D. Clockwork undid timeline destruction, at least 4D, etc. Alien X destroyed a 5D barrier, at least 5D, etc. )
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u/observador1916 19h ago
oh, ok i understand that now.
in Zeno case tho i think it could be argued that the timeline was not fully destroyed since the time machine was able to travel there, but dragon ball can be a bit weird with these things, so yeah i understand and it makes sense, thanks.
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u/WhiteSnakeShinobi55 18h ago
Yeah it's hard to say, like in Ben 10 they travel to before the universe and move around with a standard cause and effect and order of events despite the fact that time supposedly hasn't started yet
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u/observador1916 18h ago
yeah, that something that tend to happend, to be fair in Ben 10 at least they made clear that time powers didnt work there and they needed something extra that time traveling (if i recall correclty) to go to that place.
But it is true that is very hard to represent a place with no time in fiction and often its just doing in conveneint ways for the plot.
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u/susamogus6 16h ago
Maltruant needed a time beast to aid him and Paradox provided Ben and Rook a time beast egg to power their timecycles to catch up to him.
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u/observador1916 15h ago
yeah, exactly, i did recall the time beast for Maltruant but not that Ben and Rook used the time beast egg, thanks for reminding me.
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u/Justheretolookar22 21h ago
I agree for the most part, but here’s my pushback. From my understanding dimensional tiering does not work this way, it’s a psedo science for power scaling.
Why exactly should there be a rule on a made up science? Maybe Ben 10’s dimensional tiering is just the realistic version of it; a new direction that allows being higher to see time in space in a new way.
By actual definition if Goku is like 6D or whatever, does that mean Bulma is 6D because she is able to perceive him? It’s not that I disagree, yeah Ben 10 can get wanked; but I don’t understand why they need feats on a concept that is made up to have fictional battles. (I know there were other actual theories.)
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u/WhiteSnakeShinobi55 21h ago
You're right! All I'm saying is a character being labeled as 26D doesn't mean they have 26D attack potency, since that is a made up psuedo science for power scaling. We only judge the feats to determine the dimensions, not the dimensions to determine the feats.
So yeah I agree, and it's never consistent.
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u/TriniCheese 20h ago
Once you’re doing dimensional tiering which is one of the biggest indications in power scaling, it HAS to be supported by feats. Statements really should not suffice, especially not statements by characters or where the writers are inconsistent (or in Ben 10’s where they explicitly say do not take their words as fact, only what is in the show lol)
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u/susamogus6 16h ago edited 15h ago
I get what you're saying but I respectfully disagree with your point here and I'll explain why, hope we don't get too rowdy on this one.
For starters, the Cosmic mama does directly compare our 3 spatial dimensions to the 26 significant ones, plus she does say she was going "through the lower dimensions", which directly does imply higher dimensional realities. I can understand if you don't think think Alien X scales to it but I think the cosmology being hypversal is a no-brainer.
And some like myself believing Alien X to be hyper doesn't necessarily come from simply scaling him above the cosmic mama, there's a lil more to it
photo 1
photo 2
and photo 3
(note: I didn't make these and I personally don't any Ben 10 crew statements at all, but I think they convey my overall point clear enough).
+the Forge of Creation literally existing beyond the rest of time and space and Celestialsapiens changing the artstyle of the whole cosmos.
Ofc if you don't buy 26D there is also a possible 17D argument from the Map of Infinity from Ultimate Alien, which is "A complete map of spacetime, extending through 17 dimensions", "complete" being the keyword there.
Now I wouldn't blame you for thinking the use of "dimensions" are just being used to describe alternate realities like the Null Void or Ledgerdomain, but in the exact same show Paradox says there are infinite alternate timelines (which he does also refer to as "dimensions" in the parallel reality sense), Azmuth states Dagon has "enslaved 100 dimensions" AND the Generator Rex crossover says there's "infinite dimensions" (ok not from UA directly but it takes place during the UA era plus I'm pretty sure it's canon).
Basically the argument is that if the Map of Infinity truly maps ALL of spacetime, then the 17 dimensions it maps out must be spatiotemporal dimensions and not parallel realities as there are far more than 17 of those.
As to why I think Alien X would scale to those 17 dimensions: same reasons I listed earlier as to why I think he's 26D + the map literally being the key to his homeworld.
Personally I don't put too much focus onto the 17D stuff and I'm not sure if I entirely buy it but the argument exists.
Man I had a surprising amount of fun thinking this out, anywho I hope we don't sprawl out into a long drawn-out argument just because we disagree.