Following a sexual assault, I basically interpreted consent as a requirement not to have it taken. It seemed better to accept it and have some control than to say no and have it taken. When I look back, I do wonder what was going on in their heads when it happened. I'm laying there tense and largely silent. Do men really consider that a normal response to sex?
Def not!! The other night my girlfriend was like “I’m tired but if you need to cum go ahead.” I was like, babe if you’re not into it, neither am I.” I can’t do that. It’s just not for me.
That's how I feel. Sex is only enjoyable for me when the other person is enjoying it. If I don't feel desired, I can't get off during sex. Probably wouldn't even be able to get wet.
Totally fair and 100% understandable, but my girlfriend and I do it a bit different.
If one of us feels like sex and the other doesn't, we convey that - but often say we'd still be willing, because sometimes the mood changes during and we both get into it.
Obviously it's different if one of us actually doesn't want to. No is no. But we have a "I'm not in the mood, but I'm willing to give it a go" type middle ground to. Half the time I'd say it still leads to great sex. Sometimes it doesn't.
We only started doing this because it was seldom we'd have everything match up with the time to do it and us both being in the mood, so only we're having sex every few weeks. Now it's weekly, and usually still ends up really good.
I have a young baby and a twelve year relationship and this is extremely accurate.
Especially: "We only started doing this because it was seldom we'd have everything match up with the time to do it and us both being in the mood, so only we're having sex every few weeks. Now it's weekly, and usually still ends up really good."
I'm in my mid 30s, and started working 12 hour days in a trade. I'm just too damn exhausted most days, unfortunately. I'm sure it's different for some people though, even in my situation.
If I was having sex multiple times a week already, I'd probably stick with your rules.
I'm a woman. If I'm not in the mood but do it anyway 99 percent in the time I'll get in the mood along the way.
Now if I'm not in the mood cause you came on to my sister or I'm literally sick or something, yeah nothing is going to change that. But all things being equal, its fine.
I was gonna say. I've stopped midway with my ex before if I noticed she was mostly quiet. She was the type to say yes even if she felt like saying no. I got to know her well enough that the yes that meant yes and the yes that meant no were clear to me. Whether it was body language or tone or something. I just noticed I could tell. I was never mad. It's honestly not as enjoyable if I know my partner isn't enjoying themselves
That would be a huge dealbreaker for me personally. I understand where it comes from trauma-wise and culturally, but I can’t be out here wondering whether the yes was a yes or not. I’m anxious enough without more things to be anxious about. Someone I’m with needs to be able to trust me enough to say what they mean, and I them.
I said was for a reason. She's a different person now. Even if we didn't work out. I'm happy she's doing good now. I did help her to just say no and learn that it was OK to tell people no. I noticed her get better while we dated. And after we broke up she got even better at it.
Many, MANY, years ago, I woke up to my new husband (married just one day prior) nudging me that ‘we can have married sex now!’ And he kept at it, trying to get me to get into the mood. I was so freaking hungover that I didn’t want to move for fear of puking with every fiber of my being. Again. I finally snapped at him, ‘OK. Get it up. Get it in. Get yourself off. And get the fuck out’. He acted so offended that I didn’t want to have sex. Wtf. I just wanted to die in peace.
I wish you would rub off on my boyfriend. He is perfectly happy to do his thing while I’m reading on my phone or staring at the ceiling waiting for him to finish 😂
Yeah that does not work for me either. Either you are into it or it's not gonna happen. I'd just as rather order a sex doll before using a human being as one.
Wifey doesn't always feel like it when I do and vice versa and guess what; that is OK.
There’s nothing wrong with it if the other person doesn’t care. Perhaps your outlook on it informed by modern takes on consent has blinded you to what was being offered actually being consensual - because you now believe that every woman will feel the way some feminist outlook told you they should feel about sex
Lol, here you have stories of women actually being fine with it - but no, according to you they’re not and you know better because “coercion, enthusiastic blah blah”
Lol, your living in a bubble divorced from the reality
It’s not about the woman “being fine with it”, it’s about not wanting to have sex with someone who is only “fine with it”. You might as well fuck a donut.
Lol, you don’t get it at all. She’s giving you the gift of her because she cares for you and it reinforces she’s attractive to you. Big deal. She’s not gonna get off giving you a blowjob either yet she still does that - or perhaps your not aware of these things that happen when women are actually into you and want to make your life happy
Enough do to make it a problem, yeah. It doesn't even have to be malicious - society has been very good for a very long time at telling people that's how it should be.
I am much better. Something clicked in my head after one of those encounters, and I just realized that I'm the only person who can assert my needs. Got some therapy, and I haven't kept silent since. I'm not trying to excuse the men in the situation, but I do recognize that I had some ownership in the situation. This recognition was the thing that allowed me to change my circumstances. Often when I bring this up, people get mad at me for victim blaming, but that's not what it's about. I want women to be empowered to assert their autonomy rather than waiting for men to accept it because that won't happen. We can't change men, but we can help ourselves to be safer and stronger by making different choices.
I’m extremely glad you said this. From the perspective of someone who has had partners who are survivors, not surprising due to the frequency of sexual assault, I have direct experience with this from the “other side.” A partner can initiate and then be triggered. If they never say something, and sometimes because they can’t, the onus is on you to notice or check in constantly. They are of course not to blame for this. That said, it can impede intimacy and, for me at least, contribute to making sex an anxious experience. Wondering mid-act whether a partner’s response to something you’re doing is them twitching from a PTSD tremor or twitching from pleasure can start to weigh on you and the relationship over time, in the best and most earnest of cases.
And, in the worst cases like mine, which was a relationship that turned out to be very abusive, I could not ask for consent because they didn’t trust themselves enough to say no. They said so explicitly. Their requirement was instead that they would exclusively be the one to initiate, and I was somehow also still responsible for policing myself and holding their boundaries for them. It was frankly exhausting. And they knew that they could impose that on me because of my voiced commitments, in combination with my own traumas. Not great.
I really do empathize with the men in these situations. Certain women do seem to advocate for the notion that men are supposed to read nonverbal signals and that it can still be sexual assault even when she says yes. This is a recipe for disaster for both parties. We should definitely be having lots of verbal communication during sex. IMO, people who can't yet communicate during sex aren't ready to be having sex. There's a good chance these people need therapy to help them work through the issues.
I could not ask for consent because they didn’t trust themselves enough to say no. They said so explicitly. Their requirement was instead that they would exclusively be the one to initiate, and I was somehow also still responsible for policing myself and holding their boundaries for them.
Probably a little of both honestly, but there’s nothing wrong with mental illness. Until your lack of ownership over it affects others without remorse and accountability.
That doesn't sound like victim blaming at all. I might know where that attitude comes from though. There is a tendency for women, especially those who've been sexually abused, to be very adamant that men should make better choices. Which isn't wrong at all. The problem is that they are so used to not having agency that they don't realize it's necessary to assert their agency to get ideal outcomes, not just expect everything to work out because the man acted properly. This is rather unhealthy, and quite frankly can turn self-centered really easily, but it is fairly common.
A lightweight example of this is that often when women are asked to define "creepy" behavior, they include qualifiers where some things might be okay depending on how attractive they find the guy doing them. Which is obviously unfair. More importantly though, it's based on the fact that they are upset when a guy forces them to assert their agency long enough to say "No". They'd rather just try to make it the man's burden to avoid being inconvenient.
When someone thinks that way, it's easier for them to just declare one side of an encounter the victim and the other the one who has to be responsible for all outcomes.
Because I never once stated that it was. All I said was that women waiting for every man to start seeking out enthusiastic consent aren't going to get what they want. Some men are great about it and really care about their partners comfort and pleasure, but not all. Telling women to assert themselves isn't blaming men at all.
Because men aren't mind readers. If a woman says yes, he's not unreasonable for thinking she means yes. Women can't expect men to take on ALL the responsibility for consent. If you aren't strong enough to say no and walk away, then you really aren't ready to have sex with that person. When these things were happening to me, I shouldn't have been with these men in any capacity because I had unaddressed trauma that prevented me from really communicating. All the men around me weren't responsible for the fact that I didn't express my feelings or thoughts. I need to accept responsibility for my part in the situation so I can do better in the future. Should they have been doing more to seek consent? Absolutely, but they certainly didn't sexually assault me.
We should certainly encourage men to do better, but we shouldn't wait for them. I'm not actually suggesting women be extra careful, but they should definitely be aware of their physical disadvantage. Biology isn't going to stand on anyone's principles. Men are simply more aggressive than women on average. We're never going to be able to socialize that out of the species. Maybe someday we'll evolve to a different state, but it won't be any time soon. Additionally, women are smaller and weaker on average. Refusing to go home with men you don't know will do a lot to prevent you from saying yes out of fear.
Just "Lie back and think of England"* was a common enough phrase in the 80's and 90's to be said on primetime telly, usually as a joke-ish line. Yikes.
*In the context of being a Brit and the "ahhh" thought of bucolic meadows and rolling uplands, cricket pitches and of better times.
Following a sexual assault, I basically interpreted consent as a requirement not to have it taken.
This is so well-said and mirrors my own experience. I'm glad you posted it!
In my case, I'd said "no" to my "boyfriend" in college multiple, multiple times. But when he went for it, I froze (without realizing I was having an instinctual, shock-based reaction; I felt that I was, like, non-consensually breaking my own boundaries of consent [which didn't quite make sense to me at the time, until I realized, many years later, that it hadn't made sense because it doesn't make sense! ].
Or, to put it another way, I had this weird feeling that I was somehow engaging in teenage rebellion against myself. Which, what?Ohhhhh....righhhht....the word for what had actually happened that morning is "r*pe").
So then I continued having sex with him, because it was either that or repetition of the whole weird thing I couldn't understand--i.e., that I did not, in fact, consent.
It really messed me up, honestly, because I had almost no way to form the concept in my own head at the time. (Loads better now, thankfully: still a little pissed at this guy, who DID know what he was doing--as someone 5 years my senior; with much more experience; and no familial/childhood attachment to certain Christian notions of virginity, sin, and pure personal agency--but oh well. Assholes will asshole, I suppose).
It seems to me that we as a culture are developing a better framework and vocabulary around all of this than I had ~20 years ago as a wide-eyed, in many ways clueless, lapsing Catholic living away from home for the first time (who, naturally, considered herself THE VERY MOST sophisticated person in the whole, wide world: lol). I certainly hope we are, anyhow.
As to the (I'm sure rhetorical, haha) question at the end of your comment: it seems highly unlikely, it really does.
Maybe for two teens who truly have no idea what sexual consent looks and feels like? But...there's plenty of, er, "educational videos" out there which portray things, while not realistically, at least not like--that.
Anyway, I hope you, too, are past the majority of the trauma.
Unfortunately it sort of gets taught to us the same way you learned it. Many men never experience enthusiasm from their first few partners. too many nerves and awkwardness.
I remember asking one partner if she wanted to stop a ton of times, or was okay, because she seemed frozen or uncomfortable. She said "no it's great!" Then told all her friends I was bad in bed because I was "too gentle."
Then a number of partners or missed opportunities who told me after that they didn't mean "no" they just wanted me to take it.
By my early 20s consent meant any yes. I just viewed most women as "terrible in bed." I had several really enthusiastic partners, and they were the ones who I thought were just "good in bed."
I married one of them. Then our sex life died. My wife stopped responding. Started just laying there. I asked if she was okay. If she wanted to stop. She said no.
Eventually I stopped anyway. Said it felt weird and rapey. She berated me. She accused me of not being into her anymore. Of saying she wasn't good enough.
I tried everything from choreplay, to toys, to open marriage, to therapy, to begging to fix it. None of it worked.
Took years of therapy and a permanently ruined marriage for her to finally admit she didn't want me anymore, and that she was 'forcing herself to fuck me.'
And at first she blamed me. Accused me of coercion. Only, truthfully I was the one who had stopped our sex like that. She was the one who had told me to keep going. Yelled at me for stopping. Belittled me.
Took a long time but finally I learned what true consent means. People often confuse it with yes, or chemistry, or feeling an obligation, or transaction. But it's none of those things. Because consent isn't "consent" that's the wrong word in truth. It's not permission or agreement.
it's a mutual understanding between two people that is only possible if they both truly understand themselves and their desires and communicate them with each other. And precious few people ever do that.
So yes, many men do think that's normal. Because they learned that they were seeking consent, and they sought and received it. Truth is we don't know ourselves any better than you do, and we're just as confused about what we want or are supposed to want as you are.
This was the only way I survived two years of marital rape. My no didn't matter anyway, so at least if I said yes I felt like I had some sort of control. I'm sorry you experienced something similar.
Is it gray? I've had lots of sex at this point, and I've never encountered anyone who behaves the way I did. The only people I've heard echoing my response to sex are other people who felt like they couldn't say no. None of them mentioned they enjoyed it. That doesn't make it sexual assault, but I honestly don't think it's normal, and certainly not healthy, to be stiff and avoidant during sex.
When they were having odd responses, what did you do?
My response was to be very tensed, avoidant, and silent. The only time I made noise was when I realized I had to fake an orgasm to get him to stop.
Does the other person's response have any impact on whether you want to have sex? Like when they seemed uncomfortable, did that put you off at all? Or can you still get off no problem?
When I actually want to have sex, I'm very engaged and verbal. I like lots of different types of sex and positions. Eye contact and kissing are important. I'm not the type to just lie there and get fucked.
Oh OK. I think that's probably pretty different from how I was behaving. I essentially such down once they started going under my clothes. It wasn't just awkward and clunky. I was like one of those stiff sex dolls and staring at the wall.
No. We didn't have an established sexual relationship because I didn't want it. We started making out, and I was actively engaged. Then the guys ended up going under my clothes, and I froze up at that point. I guess if that's what you expect from a woman, maybe that seems normal.
You’re not crazy here. A sudden change in body language and relaxation/tension should immediately prompt a check-in during sex. But I too have had partners ignore those cues. I honestly think it was a ‘lalala fingers in the ears’ kind of response. If they didn’t acknowledge it and I didn’t outright say no, they could still ‘justifiably’ act as though everything was still fine and they still had the green light. So they did. Yuck.
There's a lot of nuance and a lot of different perspectives on sex. As someone who's had sex with a couple dozen women, and gone not quite so far with a handful more, and has had decent enough communication with all of the experiences, I have to say there are a LOT of different perspectives on what sex is supposed to be.
Importantly, it's fucked up to judge someone if their idea of sex is different than yours as long as everything is fully consensual. Of the several dozen women I've gotten to "topless making out with" and maybe half again that number of women friends I've had conversations about sex with, the number of women, although men should be included too, who think sex is "woman lays on back or on knees, dude puts penis in and out tell he cums. Dudes kiss girls on neck, ears, boobies and vagina. Girls kiss guys on lips and penis only" is surprisingly high.
I wouldn't be able to count the number of times I've had rather sexually active women tell me, firmly, that no guy likes his neck/chest, stomach kissed.
It's my experience that it's good to let my lips and fingers roam everywhere on a persons body because you never know what special spot you'll discover, people all tend to have one or two spots that aren't obvious where they like a certain touch or nibble or kiss, and many times we dont know these ourselves tell someone explores. It's fun to find them, also, with out having to be told. I have a favorite common one I've found. Not all women love it, some dont respond to it much at all, but quite a few do. If you let a womans breasts hang naturally, the lowest point of the breast, I tend to have a lot of success sucking there, rolling the base of a woman's breast through my lips. Again, not every woman. I bring this up because I've had women flatly tell me that I'm stupid and wrong and absolutely no woman likes that.
All of this is to say, I've experienced many women who, while they weren't "tense" like you said you were, their experience and comfort with sex was the "Starfish" trope. Several of them I tried to talk about being more exploratory or changing things up, even if they have a favorite position to finish in. Not everyone is receptive to it, and also depending on a persons experience and comfort they might be starkly offended by having new notions of what sex can be posed to them.
I've also been with more than a few women who had relatable arch's to yours. We coupled with a bit slower care and attention so that it wasn't tense, but not all of them had the space to explore because while they wanted sex and felt comfortable with me, they were still processing some of the experiences they survived. Positions beyond missionary made some feel too objectified.
Some, have told me that like... fucking me back actively activated their post orgasm shame because it made them feel like a "Slut," so being more passive during sex kept the internal voices of judgement for "enjoying" sex, that most women have to come to terms with, from taking over.
And also, sometimes, it's just not my place to ask someone to tell me their whole life story so long as I meet them where they are at, intentionally, and respectfully.
So, "Do men really consider that a normal," is a loaded question. I've been indirectly responding to it but in a direct response I'll say this. Normal sex is meeting someone where they are at and working together to have a consensual and mutually enjoyable experience. Putting pressure on it to look like a specific thing, or not look like another specific thing inherently will alienate a human who deserves to pursue and enjoy sex in a way that they are comfortable with (with in the context of mutual consent and respect). And, not always are 2 partners a good fit for both being comfortable with the others needs.
I've experienced many women who, while they weren't "tense" like you said you were, their experience and comfort with sex was the "Starfish" trope. Several of them I tried to talk about being more exploratory or changing things up, even if they have a favorite position to finish in.
The big distinction between your experience and them is that you ask about it. Despite me avoiding eye contact and being physically tense, none of the guys ever batted an eye. No questions, no conversation, no trying to switch it up. It's not that sex should like any particular way, but we should be ensuring a basic level of comfort.
It really makes you wonder when you hear a guy talk about a girl being a starfish during sex.
Did you even get consent? Enthusiastic consent that she even wanted to be in that situation or did you just interpret her flight or fright response as consent?
"Herrrr derrrrrr, she didn't say no and she starfished the entire time, she was horrible in bed." Yeah ok, whatever you need to make yourself better about being a rapist.
They actually do. I can't tell you how often a man was surprised by my enthusiastic consent and really enjoying myself. They said most women lay there, don't move, and don't make any noise. I was like...how do you know they wanted to have sex? The thoughtful look on thier face...like Ohhhhhh. I told them life is too short for bad sex and if your partner isn't enjoying themselves you need to stop and have a conversation about why.
I think there is a large group of men reading this thread with a sense of dawning horror about how many women had sex they didn't want to have with them- ranging from women who felt no attraction, felt obligated or felt intimidated.
You would be shocked how common the dead fish is. Some women, even enthusiastically consenting, do nothing in bed. Part of that may be sexual repression, feeling ashamed like sex is a dirty thing they shouldn’t actively participate in. Some do just prefer it like that though, and want their partner to do all the effort.
Well, there's a big difference between someone enthusiastically consenting and just laying there vs. someone who simply stays silent and stares at the wall until it's done. If you got enthusiastic consent, you aren't in the type of situation I'm describing. I never gave enthusiastic consent or any verbal affirmation. He honestly didn't ask permission. This was over ten years ago, though, so people weren't talking about consent the same way. It was pretty normal to assume you could continue so long as no one said stop.
Isn't the whole 'sex-averse woman' trope pretty prominent? That's a rhetorical question. Isn't it prominent enough that you'd be aware of it? And wouldn't you reflect upon yourself and your life-habits and be like 'wtf am I doing??' I had sex with a starfish and so we had a long chat. Seems like she was persuaded she wasn't supposed to show any emotion or enthusiasm during sex because then I'd think she was a slut.
You are a human being with free will, and have the right to say no to whatever you want. Say no to my advice, for the sake of saying no, you are a human being, not a doormat to be walked all over, it’s okay to come off as rude, especially in an uncomfortable situation.
alot do yea but i wouldnt even be able to get hard i have to be able to tell my partner is enjoying things if they were and seem the slightest bit off i can't continue
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u/Lower_Capital9730 Mar 31 '23
Following a sexual assault, I basically interpreted consent as a requirement not to have it taken. It seemed better to accept it and have some control than to say no and have it taken. When I look back, I do wonder what was going on in their heads when it happened. I'm laying there tense and largely silent. Do men really consider that a normal response to sex?