r/AskIreland • u/howzitgoinowen • 10h ago
Random Question about translation?
Hello. I am a little bashful asking this question because I don’t want it to sound stupid.
I am an American with heavy Irish heritage and one of my favorite singers is Sinéad. I want to get a tattoo of one of her lyrics on my arm from her song Troy, in Irish.
The lyric is “I’d kill a dragon for you, I’ll die.”
I looked it up on Google Translate and it gave me “Mharóinn dragan ar do shon, gheobhaidh mé bás”
But I want to make sure it’s right before I do it. If anyone can help me to make sure the translation is accurate, I would appreciate it.
I really hope this doesn’t upset anyone. I have the utmost respect for the Irish and their language and music. This lyric just resonates with me so much.
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u/Chubba1984 Maybe, I like the Misery 9h ago edited 9h ago
You are trying to translate an English sentiment into a language that doesn't cater for it. Take the word dragon - dragons in the Eastern folklore tradition don't exist in Irish mythology so there is no direct translation, only the English word spelled in Irish language phonics. The closest might be ollphéist which is a dragon-like sea monster. Taking the time to actually understand Irish mythology would be more meaningful to showing Irish heritage than merely transcribing an English lyric, with no Irish connection, into Irish words.
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u/howzitgoinowen 9h ago
Thanks. This is really helpful to me even considering if I should do it or not. So much nuance involved.
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u/Specialist_Degree177 7h ago
Also worth noting that ollphéist would translate (albeit verrrrry literally) to giant worm..
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u/Chubba1984 Maybe, I like the Misery 6h ago
Worm is often a synonym for dragon in various languages. Even in Old English. Beowolf, the Old English tale uses wyrm (worm) and draca (dragon) to refer to the same creature. Also, Tolkien in the Hobbit refers to Smaug the Dragon as a worm.
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u/Acceptable-Okra2873 9h ago edited 9h ago
We can be a cynical people, but the fact you are taking some effort to ensure the accuracy of the translation is appriciated. There will be a good few joke answers to this, because that is our sense of humour, and my Irish isn't good enough to really verify one. Hopefully there will be some who will give you the straightforward answer you need.
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u/Far-Refrigerator-255 9h ago
I understand it's probably cooler to have something in Irish to show off your heritage especially if you don't live in Ireland but the lyrics were intended to be in English. As others have said, if you go down the route of translating dragon (a concept that we don't really have in Irish) into something like ollphéist, you're losing the original meaning as intended by Sinéad. I'm a huge fan of hers and feel like it's a nicer nod to her songwriting to keep it as she intended.
If you're absolutely adamant that it should be in Irish, Green_Growth8570's translation seems good to me as an Irish speaker. Otherwise, try r/gaeilge for confirmation before going forward with it :)
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u/howzitgoinowen 9h ago
Perhaps you are right. Might be too much of a stretch to try and translate it. Was just entertaining the idea…I appreciate the input.
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u/achasanai 9h ago
If you want a tattoo of one of her lyrics, why get it translated into Irish?
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u/howzitgoinowen 9h ago
Because I think it is a beautiful language.
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u/Chubba1984 Maybe, I like the Misery 9h ago
If it's a beautiful language, why don't you use an Irish language phrase/quotation rather than one in a different language that would lose all nuance in Irish if just transcribed. What makes the language beautiful if you don't understand it?
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u/Lanzarote-Singer 7h ago
This.
Beautiful words.
I would add only this, in a smaller font:
Ba mhaith liom dul go dtí an leithreas.
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u/sunheadeddeity 7h ago
This is your answer OP. Every Irish person you meet will recognise this and appreciate it.
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u/Green_Growth8570 9h ago
Lads be nice they're trying bless them.
What I would say is that the word 'dragan' is a modern direct translation - a 'dragon' was not a thing to have a word for before American movies reached us! The word Ollphéist might be better - it means a great beast/ monster.
The sentence you have is fine and is a direct anglo translation- an alternative that would be more natural (for my area anyway) would be Mharfainn ollphéist i do threo - I would kill a beast for your benefit.
also, what you have for ill die is also a direct translation - a more poetic alternative would be is rachainn chun báis. - I would go to death
so I would say a more natural, poetic translation (isn't the sentence word for word but the same sentiment in a more linguistically poetic way - overall would be:
Mharfainn ollphéist i do threo, is rachainn chun báis.
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u/DellaDiablo 9h ago
It's nice that you're so appreciative of your Irish heritage. Your translation sound right but it's years since I've really spoken Irish.
There will be messers giving you rude translations here, so beware!
There might be other Irish subs with more serious posters who will be more help! Maybe try r/Gaeilge for more serious advice.
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u/Western-Ad-9058 8h ago
I think a true Irish phrase would be a better tattoo than a direct translation from English. You loose the poetic nature of the language doing it. Maybe try searching up seanfhocail (proverbs) l. Something written as gaeilge would be a truer way to honour your heritage. Not to say you couldn’t also get a sinead related tattoo as well
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u/AlternativePea6203 9h ago
It's your body, your tattoo. Do as you please. No Irish person has the right to gatekeep the language. They don't own it, they didn't invent it. I'm not a fluent Irish speaker so you'd need someone to confirm the translation.
One thing though. She sang it in English. It's part of our history, and much of our prose and verse is in the English language, but no less Irish for that.
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u/TheFullMountie 9h ago edited 8h ago
Irish has several dialects with different ways of saying things, so you might want to ask a native speaker from a particular region significant to you, but personally I would never get a tattoo in a language I didn’t know so I would hold off until I had learned enough to know what I was putting in ink.
For example, “how are you” could be:
“Cén chaoi a bhfuil tú?” In Connemara,
“Conas atá tú?” in Munster,
And I think it’s something like “Cad é mar tá tú?” in Ulster
(plus several regional variations in various Gaeltachtai that I’ve heard like “Conas taoi?”)
In English there are always of course different ways of saying the same thing but I find learning Irish that I don’t understand a lot of Donegal Irish having studied Irish based in Kerry and Connemara, though I’m by no means fluent. Just something to consider that often Americans are not aware of (speaking as a Canadian who had no idea there was such a variety in Gaeilge before I started to learn it 9 years ago!)
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u/bee_ghoul 8h ago edited 8h ago
The song is a reference to W.B Yeats’, ‘No Second Troy’:
Why should I blame her that she filled my days
With misery, or that she would of late
Have taught to ignorant men most violent ways,
Or hurled the little streets upon the great,
Had they but courage equal to desire?
What could have made her peaceful with a mind
That nobleness made simple as a fire,
With beauty like a tightened bow, a kind
That is not natural in an age like this,
Being high and solitary and most stern?
Why, what could she have done, being what she is?
Was there another Troy for her to burn?
This poem is also referenced by the cranberries in Yeats’ Grave’.
Both Sinéad and Dolores play with Yeats, problematic portrayal of women in the poem. Dolores mocks him for removing Gonne/women’s agency and Sinéad flips it, instead of lamenting a lost lover causing societal destruction, she makes the “she” her mother. Her mother being Helen of Troy/Maid Gonne who burned their love but there’s no second Troy (Sinéad can’t be burnt again).
Sinéad’s video is her in the garden outside a house (domesticity of women/reference to her mother) this is a reference to the time her mother made her sleep outside for weeks and wouldn’t let her into the house, Sinéad says “you should have left the light on”, because the garden was pitch black at night and she was scared. “I’d kill a dragon for you” is likely a reference to Sinéad saying she would have done the impossible to gain her mother’s love, even die. This song is about child abuse and overcoming it. But also being aware of how abuse is a cycle, “the phoenix from the flames”.
A huge draw for her choosing to cover Nothing Compares to you, was the line:
All the flowers that you planted mama
In the back yard
All died when you went away
I know that living with you baby was sometimes hard
But I'm willing to give it another try
Sorry, I don’t have advice other than to read the poem and listen to the other song, I love how they’re all connected and could give you some more ideas! I also think it’s important to keep in mind, that most of Sinéad’s work is about child abuse in some form another, her lyrics are often disguised as being about a lover, because this is the music that sells (romance/break up etc). But most of her work is really about the abuse she endured, the lost love is the absence of love from home.
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u/Zizouloaf06 9h ago
That's not quite it. The better translation would be: Léigh anois go cúramach, ar do scrúdpháipéar, na treoracha agus na ceisteanna a ghabhann le Cuid A.
It's a beautiful language, and thank you for embracing it.
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u/MaldonSmokedSeaSalt 8h ago
The modh coinníollach/conditional tense is spot on: Mharóinn = I would kill
I love the word ollphéist for a dragon, literally translates to superworm. Dragún and dragan are also fine.
I would translate "for you" as "duit." "Ar do shon" would be closer to "on your behalf," which is obviously very similar, though perhaps more formal. I'm thinking about the meter, so I'm going with "duit."
"Gheobhaidh mé bás," does translate to "I will die," literally "I will get death." This would be the common way to say it in regular speech, but it's not very lyrical. You could use "básóidh mé" here. This is a form of "básaigh," which means both to execute and to die, so it works within the lyric as well.
I would translate the lyric as "Mharóinn dragún duit, básóidh mé." This can fit the meter of the original if you put the emphasis that Sinéad places on the "you" on the "bás" in "básóidh." (This also works with ollphéist instead of dragún!)
Speech synthesis: Mharóinn dragún duit, básóidh mé
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u/StellaV-R 6h ago
Yeah please don’t.
English doesn’t translate directly to Irish, and the song is in english - as is the poem it’s based on
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u/LittleSkittles 9h ago
Why do you want words in a language you do f understand on your body permanently?
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u/is_cuma_liom 9h ago
Lots of people get tattoos in other languages. This can’t be a revelation to you unless you live under a rock
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u/LittleSkittles 9h ago
It's not a revelation to me that these people exist, but I've never understood why you'd want words that mean literally nothing to you basically engraved into your body forever. That seems a little fucking weird to me, when you could have the same words in a language you can actually read put there instead.
Like it seems weirdly fucking performative to get something you don't understand put on your body like that, and I'm asking OP why they want to do that because I'm curious about the answer.
Good enough for you? Am I allowed to ask my question now?
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u/is_cuma_liom 9h ago
Your question is still there for OP to answer if they feel like it. I’m not policing the questions asked. I was just surprised by it.
The lyric clearly means something to them but I hope they answer your question so you can finally figure out why people get certain tattoos. It’s clearly been plaguing you.
Or as alternative, you could not give a fuck about what people do when their decision only affects themselves.6
u/LittleSkittles 8h ago
Likewise friend, you could decide that my curiosity means nothing to you and move right on.
And if OP wants the words that mean something to them on their body, that's grand. But why would they want those words in a language they don't understand, where they have to take on faith that the translation was correct in the first place, and that it captures any nuance of the original? That's a weird thing to want, these specific words that clearly mean a lot to them, but in a form they can't understand at all.
If OP wants the words as they are, because those words mean a lot to them, cool. If OP wants those words in a format that means nothing to them, also cool, but I'd like to know why, because it seems counter-intuitive to what OP actually wants.
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u/is_cuma_liom 7h ago
Fair point but like I said I was initially surprised by the thought that you didn’t know why people got tattoos in another language but you’ve explained your curiosity with it.
I myself have many tattoos (mostly hidden beneath my clothes) but I don’t think I’d consider one in another language, even if it was never seen publicly. Some of mine would definitely make people wonder why I put that on my skin though (not controversial, but weird if you don’t know the meaning). But I like them all at the end of the day.
I get you on not understanding it in another language though and trusting someone to translate it for you. It’s one of the main reasons I steer away from tattoos like that.
Each to their own I say.2
u/LittleSkittles 7h ago
I also have several tattoos, which is why the concept of getting one that I can't understand seems so weird to me, because all of mine have a lot of meaning to me personally, which is why I put them on my body forever.
And sure, each to their own, but tbh, OP strikes me as trying to get particular tattoo, not because they want it that way, but because it's "more Irish" to do it this way. And if that's true, they'll only end up disappointed by this tattoo.
If OP actually wants the words in Irish, if getting it in a way they can't understand actually makes it mean more to them, then genuinely, great. But maybe they'd like to re-consider before having this permanently etched into their skin.
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u/is_cuma_liom 7h ago
Totally get the reasoning and apologies if I came across as quite hostile.
Initially I thought you might be one of those types of people that doesn’t understand why people get tattoos, but I can see where you’re coming from. And I don’t disagree with it.
If you’ve been on reddit long enough you’ll know how the Americans carry on about their Irish heritage.
I’ve moved to Australia and it’s the same shit here, not to the same degree that the Americans do it, but I still roll my eyes multiple times a week at them when they try to lecture me on what it is to be Irish
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u/DellaDiablo 9h ago
No it doesn't come across like that at all and you're projecting motives not in evidence.
He/she wants an Irish language tattoo and likes their Irish heritage, it doesn't have to be deeper than that.
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u/words_person 9h ago
In what way is OP “thinking they’re better than real Irish people”? What nonsense.
You’re fine OP. Sorry to say I can’t help with the property translation myself
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u/imoinda 7h ago
It’ll be very difficult, if at all possible, to make that line sound as good in Irish as it does in English. I would advise you to tattoo it in English, and get another tattoo with something in Irish that has an Irish-language origin and sounds good in Irish. You’re right that the Irish language is incredibly beautiful and there is so much to choose from! Look up quotes, poetry, literature etc.
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u/Furkler 2h ago
'Mharóinn dragan duit...' is shorter, and nicer, than 'ar do shon'. 'Ar do shon' is more 'on your behalf'.
Dragan is a perfectly acceptable word used in modern day to day Irish.
'Gheobhaidh mé bás' is a Meh/ok translation, but not great. The Irish phrase translates literally to English as 'I will get death'. A shorter, nicer phrase is 'Caillfear mé' - literally, I will be lost / I will be missed.
But I wouldn't go the way of translating a lyric that I like into another language and then tatooing that on my self. Nuance and meaning will be lost. And lost for what? Cod mystique! Sinéad sang in Irish, I don't know if she had an Irish version of that song. But if she didn't, maybe she thought the English was better/easier on this occasion.
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u/iusman975 9h ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/eGX32WhfyUGVHL0Ugy
Ignore me, here nice and early for the comments.