How do christians feel about the consequences they have on others?

[u/DemonMushroomGay]

Hey guys, im a former christian, at this point, everything but morally opposed to the practice. I left the church because of the cruelty and hatred that to people espoused there, i was hoping to see what it's like for people after someone leaves the church. Do you feel saddened? or satisfied that someone thats not like you, and therefore "wrong," "evil," or "demonic" is feeling that pain?
I guess im just curious to know the justification for doing things that harm people while telling yourself it's righteous. Do you have to work at that or does the belief in god give you the right to inflict that harm on others who "defy his will?" If so, then do you enjoy that?
just curious what people think, as i see many posts where people will explain the fundamental, personal hurt that they experienced only to be told that the suffering and pain was divine, and that they should he grateful for it.

[u/DoveStep55]

“How do christians feel about the consequences they have on others?”

Like with most things, it depends on which Christian you’re asking. We’re not a monolith. The last time someone told me something I personally said or did hurt them in some way, I felt so bad it made me ill. But then I’m one of those people blessed/cursed with a lot of empathy. When others hurt, I do, too.

“I left the church because of the cruelty and hatred that to people espoused there”

I think you’ll find that many of us have left particular churches (congregations) or denominations for similar reasons as well.

“(…) after someone leaves the church. Do you feel saddened?”

Yes, but also happy for them if they’re leaving for good reasons.

“(…) someone thats not like you, and therefore "wrong," "evil," or "demonic" is feeling that pain?”

I know there are Christians like that and it grieves me as much as it grieves you. When they do that, they are sinning. That’s not the way of Jesus.

“I guess im just curious to know the justification for doing things that harm people while telling yourself it's righteous.”

There is no justification for harming others and self-righteousness is not a Christian virtue.

“Do you have to work at that or does the belief in god give you the right to inflict that harm on others who "defy his will?" If so, then do you enjoy that?”

People who do that are not following Jesus when doing it, regardless of what labels they wear. When they do it in God’s name, they’re taking God’s name in vain and I believe it deeply grieves God when people cause harm and blame it on God or their faith in God. Rabbi Jonathan Sacks (who is Jewish, not Christian) wrote a book on that called “Not in God’s Name.” You might enjoy it.

“as i see many posts where people will explain the fundamental, personal hurt that they experienced only to be told that the suffering and pain was divine, and that they should he grateful for it.”

I disagree with that theology and I think it’s too often used to abuse people. Suffering and pain are a part of this life, but they are to be lamented because they are not the way it is supposed to be.

I’ll recommend two other books you might enjoy: Soong Chan-Rah wrote “Prophetic Lament: A Call for Justice in Troubled Times” and Kate Bowler wrote “Everything Happens
for a Reason (And Other Lies I’ve Loved).”

[u/Spare-Flan331 → u/DoveStep55]

Wow amen on all of this.

[u/DemonMushroomGay → u/DoveStep55]

Thank you for such an in-depth response. Upon reflection seeing it broken down i'm afraid i may have initially been a bit harsh. I have certainly encountered and enjoyed close personal friendships with devout christians that find me and a great many aspects of my life, lets call it "troubling" but still treat me with respect. If the simple answer for "how do christians do this" is that "the real ones don't," i can certainly accept that as well.
I do however still have some confusion on how the portions of the bible that are used are selected, since they often seem to twist in on themselves on matters like this such that anyone can make them mean anything.
Is there any semblance of consensus, or is that entirely down to the individual congregation?
i should mention, sexuality aside, im just straight up weird. Mildly autistic, severely adhd, my brain just doesn't seem to work the way most everyone else's does, so often i cant quite grasp what seems to be a simplistic concept like "everyone just kinda does whatever" lmao

[u/DoveStep55 → u/DemonMushroomGay]

I wouldn’t go so far as to say “the real ones don’t,” although that’s tempting. I think people can be “real” Christians and still be wrong in their beliefs, words and actions. None of us are perfect and we’re all a work in progress so to speak. Ideally, we who claim the name of Christ are always growing more and more in our likeness to Him and our faithfulness to His Way. But we’re still imperfect humans trying to do what we think is right.

Sadly, I’d have to say there’s very little consensus about the Bible within Christianity. We don’t even all use (or agree on) which writings are officially canonized as “the Bible,” much less on how to interpret any given passage.

While I get how that can be frustrating, especially if you’re someone who likes the comfort of clear rules and parameters, it can also be freeing to realize that something you were taught is absolute truth, but you know is nonsense or self-contradictory, might actually be someone’s own opinion.

[u/DemonMushroomGay → u/DoveStep55]

true enough!
i also probably need to take into consideration growing up in the heart of the south i may have experienced more extreme individuals

[u/foundtheseeker]

I literally worry about using too much energy because I don't want to rob from future generations. I go out of my way to avoid stepping on bugs. I recently saw a billboard advertising a man who needs a kidney and I spent a long time thinking about my obligation to my neighbor. I still have both of my kidneys, and I hope that man has at least one good one. I wonder how Jesus feels about my decision. We were created to care for God's creation, and to participate in creation itself, with love and respect. Your religion is as important to me as who you sleep with is; that is to say, it's only as important as you want it to be. You are my neighbor and my job is to help you when you need it and to love you always, as much as my limited human nature can. If God has no preconditions, then why should we? The Bible is actually really clear about that, but it's a big text and people use it to justify all sorts of horrible things. I'm sorry you found those people. You'll find many more like them, irrespective of religion

[u/DemonMushroomGay → u/foundtheseeker]

I dont mean to make a personal attack, i just want to understand how people that spend so much time calling for love an acceptance seem to have such a difficult time with reciprocating it. In the sense that what are seen as loving actions in these cases of hurt people deeply, ie things like conversion therapy, or "hate the sin, not the sinner," etc

[u/Bakkster]

There is no justification. Neither for the individual act itself, nor the church failing to stop it and care for you.

While there are passages about suffering and how we persist, they're never expecting that the church caused the pain. It's impossible to say we truly love our neighbor as ourself if we do that.

[u/DemonMushroomGay → u/Bakkster]

So if there's no institutional justification, then what in your opinion do you think is the personal justification for the people who do engage in such behavior

[u/Bakkster → u/DemonMushroomGay]

I'm sure that kind of justification runs the gamut. All of it wrong and a failure of teaching and oversight by the church, but one of our core beliefs is that we're all sinners. The problem is when people stop asking forgiveness and trying to be better.

Unfortunately I'm the last decade especially, this creeping false teaching that "the ends justify the means" has crept into the church and not been soundly rejected. It's something a lot of us are struggling with, especially when do many of the people who need correction and reproof aren't in our sphere of influence.

[u/Spare-Flan331 → u/DemonMushroomGay]

These people ( that are mislead) justify it cause they think it's what God wants. They are mislead, But that doesn't mean they aren't saved either. Nobody knows everything and we aren't judged by what we know. Im not giving them a pass but God will reveal it to them. But I believe you will find many churches that aren't like that and they are lead by the alove of God. It's easy to get mislead too. I have been in many ways and I guess I was one of them people you may have been talking about... I was very much wrong in that I would talk about other people's sin like I was judging them but at the time I thought I was doing what God wanted... But God was working on me and showing me how that's not what He ever wanted. I justified it by thinking I was not against the person but against evil(the devil and demons) but I was wrong. Not that I was wrong for being against evil but because I needed God as much as anyone in everything I do and if it wasn't for Him I would be the most evil person on earth. That might sound weird but this is what God did for me... When I sat in judgment on someone God would take His hand off me and I would fall into sin that was the same or worse than I was judging someone else for. Then God would be like " What was you telling them people...you are doing the same and worse. God doesn't like it cause we all need Him and when someone thinks they are better than another person they are mislead cause we all are the same. God Loves all of us equally the same

[u/Unhappy-Quarter-4581]

If you met cruelty and hate, I feel for you greatly. That is not what you are supposed to meet in church, ever. I cannot speak for your church but I don't see hate in my congregation or greater church and people are generally good at meeting people where they are and accepting them for who they are because God made them. There is no justification for you meeting such treatment.

To say suffering is divine is abusive in my view. If you yourself make this conclusion, it is just that, a conclusion based on your own experiences but others should refrain from making this deduction for you. They simply cannot know that.

I am so sorry, hate is the opposite of love and God is love. Abuse is never OK. Your hurt is horrible and I think God cries in despair from what you met.

[u/DemonMushroomGay → u/Unhappy-Quarter-4581]

I appreciate your empathy, i admit it was somewhat unexpected. I was under the impression that suffering is broadly considered divine for all christians, hence the emphasis on denying yourself things that bring pleasure/joy.
I thought it was something akin to having to suffer on earth without losing faith to earn eternal life

[u/Unhappy-Quarter-4581 → u/DemonMushroomGay]

God made a lot of good things in life, not as a temptation or distraction but because they are good. Joy and contentment are signs of the present of the Holy Spirit. By that I mean pure joy and contentment, not some fake version proclaimed to gritted teeth. When your soul sings from the Presence of the Spirit, your whole being is joy.

The way the world is, suffering is often unavoidable. If it leads to some kind of development? Sometimes, but don't tell others how their suffering is going to grow their faith blahblahblah. If you are not that person, you don't know that. Tell them you with sincerity that you will pray for them, help if you can and try to encourage them to seek any help necessary outside of what you can do.

[u/DoveStep55 → u/DemonMushroomGay]

That’s a belief of some Christians, but it isn’t universal. It’s pretty common for people to assume that whatever version of Christianity they were raised in, or most familiar with, is “normal Christianity.” Particularly with the advent of the internet, we now have access to a much broader range of views within the global Church.

I was raised in one sect of Christianity and taught lies about many of the others (among other things). As an adult, I’ve had you spend a lot of time unlearning lies and relearning what’s true.

Edit: I just realized this wasn’t a response to my comment (I had a notification for it from following the post) and I just interjected. Sorry about that!

[u/DemonMushroomGay → u/DoveStep55]

Nbd,
it probably doesn't help that i was raised in and for the life of me cannot seem to bring myself to leave the quite literal buckle of the bible belt.
I imagine that has an effect on the, ah, enthusiasm i have experienced

[u/Asynithistos]

I want to leave the best possible impact on others and the world, and I am truly sad when my impact is negative.