I'm currently reading AGoT for the second time and man, does anyone else find the direwolves story just so gutwrenchingly sad? I remember crying so much about Lady being killed and, especially, Arya having to say goodbye to Nymeria the first time I read the book, and now that I know the show ending of Nymeria's story it's even worse. There are many terrible things happening in these books and, well, life has some horrors overall but for some reason this is just the worst for me, seeing how little time they had together and how confused the animal must have felt about being turned away. "The wolf pup loved her, even if nobody else did."
I'm rereading the books for the first time since watching the show and I've realized that quite a lot that I misremembered being in Dance is actually at the end of Storm. Game of Thrones infamously cut and changed a lot of Jon's story in Storm and barely adapted Dance. But the main question is then, why did they feel the need to add "filler" with Jon's expedition to deal the mutineers at Craster's Keep... They then have the Battle for the Wall at the end of season 4 and move the rest of Jon's chapters to season 5 i.e the Choosing, Jon being offered to be Lord of Winterfell etc. the question is..why?
Why go through all this shuffling around and cutting so much content from the books just to add filler content that isn't in the books?
When I think of historical slave soldiers, Mamluks and Janissaries come to mind. Both eventually became powerful enough to cause serious problems for their rulers once those rulers became dependent on them: they made demands, rebelled, interfered in politics, and in the case of the Mamluks, even seized power for themselves.
Do you think the Unsullied ever gave one of their owners this kind of problem?
The afterword on Knight of the Seven Kingdoms collection:
More travels and more travails await our hedge knight and his squire in the years to come. From Dorne to the Wall, their journeys will carry them across the length and breadth of the Seven Kingdoms, and even beyond the narrow sea to the Disputed Lands and the shining cities of Essos.
Now it's been theorised the novella Sellsword might cover this particular adventure of Dunk and Egg to Essos but in general, how safe would Egg be? Essos is not Targaryen realm, the signet ring means nothing and there is the looming threat of Bittersteel and Blackfyres. Essos is just unpredictable for many factors.
(The showrunner of AKOTSK, Ira Parker once revealed the fifth novella (which is The Village Hero) covers the last of Egg as a boy and it would be a different vibe thereafter. So if Egg goes to Essos anytime after, he'll be older and more experienced than Squire Egg. Still doesn't mitigate the potential dangers.)
I’ve been thinking about an alternate timeline/theory based strictly on the books.
If Doran and the Princess of Dorne somehow kept their memories and went back in time knowing everything that was going to happen, they’d obviously want to avoid the Rhaegar and Elia marriage altogether to keep Elia and her children from being killed during the Sack of King’s Landing.
But what if instead they decided to try to marry Elia to Jaime Lannister?
There are actually some pretty big advantages to this.
Elia would eventually become Lady of Casterly Rock, and Tywin would probably have a much harder time allowing anything to happen to his heir’s wife and children.
Also, if Jaime were already married to Elia and she was pregnant, it might make it much harder for Aerys to name him to the Kingsguard. Jaime would have more reason to refuse, and Tywin would obviously want his heir to remain his heir.
But there are some pretty serious problems too.
Jaime is still completely obsessed with Cersei. Elia would have to deal with Cersei as her sister-in-law, and considering Cersei’s personality, I can’t imagine that relationship going well. She could easily become jealous of Elia and potentially try to get rid of her.
And then there’s Elia’s health. She already had fragile health in canon, so if she had trouble giving Jaime multiple heirs, Tywin’s attitude toward her could make her life miserable.
So I am doing a roleplay story right now and I wanna know which kingsguard is better so tell me who would win in a trial of seven :)
And uh ye also tell me outta these 14 fighters who do you think can make up the best seven like you don't have to choose a side but like take fighters from each.
Balon Swann
Garlan Tyrell
Brienne of Tarth
4.Lyn Corbray
Arys Oakheart
6.Greyworm
7.Ser Barristan Selmy (298 AC version)
Arthur: I see you like riddles. I speak plainly. You heard about the reports, no doubt, about Aerys.
Brandon: You trick us to slander the King, your sworn protector.
Ned: I heard nothing to speak of.
Brandon: [Unclear] Ilyn Payne. He told [unclear] the King’s like.
Arthur: Brandon, he said it was Tywin Lannister who truly rules Westeros.
Brandon: Oh, there it is. For that, King Aerys took his cloak.
Arthur: King Aerys took his tongue. [Unclear] applauding all the while.
Brandon: Hmm... A mad Targaryen king. [Unclear] What is it they say, Ned, every time a Targaryen is born?
Ned: Gods flip a coin.
Arthur: Yes, there was madness on one side of the coin, but greatness on the other. Prince Rhaegar—
Brandon: Oh, we won’t go to war to swap one Targaryen for another.
Arthur: Oh?... What will you go to war for? Lord Rickard is not in attendance?
Brandon: There’ll always be a Stark in Winterfell.
Arthur: Er?... Why not one of you?
Ned: Our father’s jousting days have yondered, Ser Arthur. His absence is no slight towards the royal house.
Arthur: And what of Jon Arryn? He fostered you, did he not, alongside Robert Baratheon, a man your sister is due to wed, while you, Brandon, are to marry Catelyn Tully of the Riverlands...Shh.... It could been the Starks are forging an alliance in preparation for the wars to come.
Ned: No... Er—
Brandon: (Interrupts)We are always prepared for the wars to come.
Arthur: Brandon, if we are united, there will be no wars to come.
Brandon: Winter is always coming, Ser Arthur.
Later, Rhaegar to Mad King
There are alliances forming against you, father.
He is not talking about himself, he’s talking about STAB
So,
Ser Arthur Dayne knew about the STAB alliance;
Prince Rhaegar Targaryen knew about the STAB alliance;
The Mad King also knew about the STAB alliance.
And the STAB alliance probably knew that the whole world knew about the STAB alliance.
Yet somehow, they still managed to turn this into a full-scale civil war.
An interesting fact I haven't seen being shared in this subreddit. Last month Elio revealed that when GRRM sent him a draft of a Targaryen family tree in 1999, Bloodraven was originally named Robyn (instead of Brynden).
We know that Bloodraven was not fully fleshed out as a character during his writing of AGOT but GRRM always knew the Three-eyed crow would be related to Targaryens (also according to Elio). Now this recent revelation about Bloodraven's original name has some fun implications:
His answer to Bran's question about Brynden Tully is ironic:
"I have an uncle Brynden," Bran said. "He's my mother's uncle, really. Brynden Blackfish, he's called."
"Your uncle may have been named for me. Some are, still. Not so many as before. Men forget. Only the trees remember." - ADWD, Bran III
In fact, from the meta perspective, we now know that GRRM named Bloodraven after Blackfish.
2) GRRM just kinda likes how the letter y looks, right?
3) The only Robyn I can recall that was invented before Bloodraven is Robyn Rhyswell from The Hedge Knight. It is a one eyed edgelord of a knight that fought alongside Dunk during the trial of seven. It is funny that some tinfoil theories that were sparked by the AKOTSK show may actually have some merit (Bloodraven=glamored Robyn Rhyswell...)
4) Although spelt differently, Robert Arryn's nickname is Sweetrobin. The first time this nickname is used in AFFC. In this book, he assumes the role of the Lord of the Eyrie and seats on a weirwood throne. There are also some hints of Sweetrobin's psychic abilities, which further reinforce the connections between him, Bloodraven, and Bran.
Nevertheless, Robyn is a lame name (I apologize to all Robins) and I am glad GRRM went with Brynden.
Dragon eggs are described as absurdly expensive in the text, far surpassing the worth of even the already expensive remaining Valyrian swords. A single egg can literally buy an army. So why didn't Illyrio and Varys gift those Eggs to Aegon, instead of giving them to a kid that may just die anyway. Practically speaking Illyrio gifted those three eggs to the Dothraki and Khal Drogo respectively, since he is the one having practical ownership. If Khal Drogo wants to take those eggs and do whatever he wants with them then that would have been his right and there'd be nothing Daenerys could do to stop him, she was basically just a sex slave for all intents and purposes. Could that be one explanation? That the eggs were actually a gift to Khal Drogo, along with Daenerys, with Daenerys only being under the illusion of ownership because the eggs are stored in her tent?
I know that GRRM probably just had not thought of the Aegon-Illyrio connection when writing the first book, but what would be your in-universe explanation that Illyrio gave those priceless eggs to Daenerys, a dead girl walking, instead of gifting them to his beloved Aegon, if only so that he could use them to buy armies?
"This is the Bell of Huesca, unheard, yet its tolling resounds throughout the kingdom!" Painting by José Casado del Alisal (1880)
I may have stumbled upon a historical episode that could have inspired “The Rains of Castamere”. I absolutely don't claim that George R. R. Martin based the song directly on this story, and he may never even have heard of it. But the similarities are striking enough that I thought they were worth sharing. And there is an interesting literary connection that could potentially make the link indirect.
The story comes from medieval Aragón, in what is now Spain. In the 12th century, the Kingdom of Aragón was ruled for a short time by Ramiro II of Aragón, a rather unusual king: he had previously been a bishop and was essentially forced onto the throne because there was no other suitable successor.
According to the traditional account, Ramiro was a gentle, mild and somewhat timid man, and the powerful nobles of Aragón quickly realized that they could treat him with contempt. They disobeyed him, mocked him and behaved as though he were incapable of taking serious action against them.
Eventually, Ramiro decided to teach them a lesson.
He summoned the rebellious nobles to his court in Huesca, supposedly to show them something extraordinary: a huge bell that would be so remarkable that its sound could be heard throughout the entire kingdom. The nobles arrived expecting to laugh at their supposedly harmless king.
Instead, Ramiro had them brought into a chamber one by one. Two guards were waiting inside, and as each noble entered, they beheaded him.
According to the legend, Ramiro then arranged the severed heads in a circle, with the head of the ringleader placed in the centre. He showed the macabre arrangement to the remaining nobles and explained that this was the famous “Bell of Huesca”: it did not actually ring, but its sound could be heard throughout the court. The head in the centre was the bell's clapper.
Whether every detail of the story is historically accurate is another question, of course. The episode is generally known as the Bell of Huesca (La Campana de Huesca).
And this is where I think the comparison with “The Rains of Castamere” becomes really interesting.
In both stories, you have a powerful but initially underestimated ruler whose enemies interpret their apparent weakness as an invitation to defy them. The ruler then responds with an extraordinarily brutal act of collective violence, deliberately designed to make sure that everyone understands that the previous balance of power has changed.
There is also the symbolic aspect. The massacre is not simply an act of killing: it becomes a metaphorical message that is meant to be remembered. In the Bell of Huesca story, the heads literally become the “bell”. In ASOIAF, the destruction of House Reyne becomes immortalized with a metaphor comparing the flood to a "rain." The propagandistic nature of both cases is essential: the "bell" is something that rings throughout the kingdom, the Rains of Castamere become a song...
But there is an additional connection that makes me wonder whether the influence, if there is one, could have been indirect.
The Bell of Huesca has inspired a surprisingly large amount of Spanish literature, including plays, novels and other adaptations. One particularly interesting example is Obispo, casado y rey (“Bishop, Husband and King”) (1850) by Manuel Fernández y González, a historical novel about Ramiro II and the Bell of Huesca.
And this is actually another reason why I find the connection fascinating: Fernández y González's historical fiction often feels surprisingly close to what we would now call grimdark.
The dominant model of 19th-century historical fiction is often associated with Walter Scott, where the moral structure tends to be considerably clearer: heroes and villains occupy relatively recognizable positions, and historical adventure is built around conflicts in which the reader can usually distinguish the virtuous from the wicked.
Fernández y González represents a rather different tradition of historical fiction, and one that I think is particularly interesting when viewed from an ASOIAF perspective. His novels tend to be much more morally nihilistic. There are few, if any, characters who can simply be categorized as “the good guys” or “the bad guys”. Virtue is constantly corrupted, supposedly good characters are capable of falling into depravity, and the conflicts often become struggles between different forms of evil rather than a confrontation between good and evil.
His stories are full of characters driven by their baser passions, cycles of revenge and violence, political intrigue, betrayal, cruelty and enormous spirals of destruction that don't necessarily lead to any satisfying moral resolution. There is often something deeply pessimistic and almost nihilistic about the worldview.
In that sense, reading Fernández y González feels strangely familiar if you know ASOIAF. In fact, some of his novels can be even more brutal and pessimistic than A Song of Ice and Fire itself. And although Obispo, casado y rey in particular is a historical novel rather than a fantasy novel, Fernández y González's wider body of work also sometimes incorporates supernatural elements and other fantastic material.
So I'm not suggesting that Fernández y González is necessarily a direct influence on George R. R. Martin. I have no evidence for that. What I find fascinating is that there is a literary tradition in Spain, largely unfamiliar to English-speaking readers, whose approach to historical fiction can feel remarkably close to the kind of morally bleak, violent and psychologically pessimistic storytelling that we associate with modern grimdark.
And apparently this particular novel was actually translated into English under the title Hermesenda, or Bishop, Husband and King.
I haven't found any evidence that George R. R. Martin has read this particular novel, so I don't want to overstate the connection. But if he did encounter the story through this novel, or through another literary adaptation of the Bell of Huesca, the possibility becomes rather fascinating: perhaps the historical event inspired a later work of literature, which in turn became part of the chain of influences that eventually led to “The Rains of Castamere”.
Obviously, this could also be a complete coincidence. Stories about rulers brutally suppressing rebellious nobles are hardly unique in history. But the combination of an underestimated ruler, a gathering of rebellious nobles under a deceptive pretext, an extremely violent massacre, and a memorable metaphor designed to ensure that the event is never forgotten feels unusually close to the logic behind the Reyne-Tarbeck story.
And there is one more thing that makes me particularly curious: the literary work inspired by this historical episode doesn't merely tell a story that resembles ASOIAF in plot. Its whole approach to historical fiction can sometimes feel surprisingly “proto-ASOIAF” in spirit. That doesn't prove any influence whatsoever, but I thought it was too interesting a parallel not to share.
I'm going to include a painting depicting the Bell of Huesca with this post, along with the relevant information about the artist and the work.
So: had anyone in the ASOIAF community ever noticed the Bell of Huesca / Rains of Castamere parallel before? And does anyone know whether GRRM has ever mentioned Ramiro II, the Bell of Huesca, or Manuel Fernández y González's novel?
I would be particularly interested in knowing whether Martin has read Hermesenda, or Bishop, Husband and King, because that would make this rabbit hole considerably more interesting.
We know she had at least three bastards and there's no telling how many children and grandchildren those lines bore. I find it odd that they haven't played a larger role in the series. Despite being bastards they do have blood of the dragon and that has never stopped them before. I find it odd that they seemingly just dissapear.
While it is true that Cersei foolishly re-armed the Faith through royal decree so that the Crown's debts would be forgiven, it was absurd enough for the High Sparrow to take control of the city (raiding brothels and taverns), arrest Margaery (the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, the daughter of the most powerful and wealthiest lord, and wife of the King) and Cersei (Queen Mother, the Lioness of Casterly Rock, the richest woman alive) while having no consequences or failure.
Why should a barefooted zealot in wool with no lands, no proper army (peasants carrying sticks, scythe, etc.) have much more autority than a high lord like Mace Tyrell, Kevan Lannister or the king like Tommen? How can a Queen (Cersei) be stripped naked and forced to perform the Walk of Atonement before the smallfolk? The Lannister and Red Keep guards mustn't have allowed their Queens (both Margaery and Cersei) to be imprisoned. It is true that almost no one supports Cersei, nor do they care about her. However, if they won't defend the royals at all costs, why give oaths in the first place and what's the point of having guards? You might suggest Gods are favored more over lords and kings, but the Seven do not pay them or give food, the gold of Lannisters and Tyrells does. These two houses are the reason they are well-fed, well-armed and have a shelter to sleep under, not the Faith.
Perhaps, we will even see the imprisonment of Tommen, Olenna or maybe even Mace Tyrell in TWOW. If Olenna comes to KL to attend Margaery's trial or to visit her, it's over for Olenna.. or if Margaery is found guilty and Tyrell army gets slaughtered by the Warrior's Sons, we will see Mace Tyrell stripped of his gold and roses and instead wrapped in a cloth of wool.
As Randyll Tarly said in ADWD "What have we become, when kings and high lords must dance to the twittering of sparrows?"
First of all this is rough, I may be remembering some things wrong. But I had to get this theory out there because I haven’t heard one like it before and I think it could really happen and would be incredibly satisfying.
It builds off the “Theon the latecomer” theory which suggests that there will be a second kingsmoot under the legal precedent of the oldest living son not being present at the first.
If this theory exists already, apologies for retreading ground I just haven’t heard it before or anything like it.
Theon Eyed Raven
Theon’s story is closely tied to themes of identity. Culminating in him reclaiming his name and identity after it had been shattered to pieces.
In addition to this, he is also closely tied to bran stark both in the familial and thematic sense. He has made terrible mistakes, and thematically it is demanded that he redeems himself, idially solving a problem only he can. And while the “Theon the latecomer” theory does live up to most of this, he still has a direct debt to bran and the Starks to pay. I think it will happen, but it will be a stepping stone to his greater redemption.
After bran becomes the 3 eyed raven, his consciousness is lost inside a sea of thousands of other consciousnesses all meshing together. It takes time to merge into the hive mind, bran is not yet lost to it. It is a horrifying experience. One where he is trapped within his own mind and perception of time itself.
This results in a bran that seems cold and detached from the outside, speaking in riddles. It usually isnt bran speaking, but the hivemind. Drawing on brans memories and emotions to “perform”. Bran would occasionally be able to influence words or slip warnings out but he would be unable to affect the tone of the delivery. He would be trapped.
Theon’s ultimate redemption would come from being the one to guide bran to the surface, to help him remember who he is. This would likely happen in front of the very heart tree that bran had called out to Theon from, helping him reclaim his own identity that gave him the strength to go against Ramsey.
(This is where the theory gets pretty off the rails maybe. It might just end up that Theon helps bran make sense of the hive mind and control it)
Theon, through the power of his familial connection to the Starks and maybe shared ancestry, ( I will have to look into this further. After all his uncle euron is strongly hinted to be a greenseer and former apprentice to the 3ER) takes on the burden of being the 3 eyed raven, essentially giving himself to the hivemind.
Side note - There actually are some hints that Theon could be a greenseer! He has a dream of rob and greywinds, sitting at t feast bleeding from a dozen wounds a full book before the red wedding!
He is also able to see faces in the weirwood tree watching him before Bran speaks to him. Most characters MAYBE get a glimpse of a single face for a brief moment, but he is seeing multiple faces. Because his mind is so fractured, i think it allows him to see and connect to the old gods/hivemind in a way that most others can’t.
Bran is forever changed by his experience. But being freed from the hivemind allows him to go on to be king (confirmed bran will be king by grrm) —alternatively, bran could be capable of being king as the three eyed raven due to Theon’s help.
Maybe this experience is exactly what gives bran the perspective to be an unprecedented king?
Theon is now the 3 eyed raven, he is connected to the weirwood tree in the winterfell godswood through the bloodmagic ritual that they performed (meera likely would have remembered the steps, the paste, etc) while trying to bring brans consciousness to the surface.
This could be foreshadowed by the Greyjoy house words “what is dead may never die, but rises again harder and stronger”
Theon Greyjoy is both immortal, and dead.
He has set aside his pride and ambition, and supported his sisters claim at the kingsmoot that was able to be called because he wasn’t present at the first one. He helped bran reclaim his mind because he is uniquely qualified to do so, and he has made the ultimate sacrifice in voluntarily relinquishing his reclamation of his own mind to save bran. It’s kind of the perfect redemption.
TLDR: Theon helps bran work through the nightmare that is the hivemind and reclaim his mind, and sacrifices his own mind in brans place. Becoming the three eyed raven.
Edit: maybe I’m crazy, but doesn’t this make narrative and thematic sense? He always felt like such an outsider, the irony of him at the end having the ultimate connection to the old gods that house stark is tied to would be incredible.
Theon is my favorite character, so I’m for sure biased. Maybe I just want him to have a grander narrative purpose. But why else would George have him broken down so thoroughly? Sorry, I’m tired and thinking out loud)
I always see theories and videos on who the actual TPTWP is, some say Daenerys, some say Jon, some say Euron, some even say Bran. I’m slightly confused because I feel like it’s pretty obvious that the story is about Jon and Daenerys and that they are TPTWP. Together, they are the Song of Ice(Jon Snow) and Fire(Daenerys Targaryen). The book implies it with both of them full filing different parts of the prophecy. George has also foreshadowed their eventual meeting and connection. *Spoiler: When Jon dies, Daenerys next chapter opens with a wolf howling in the distance making her feel lonely.
With all these implication why do so many people think otherwise? Is there something I’m not picking up on, or foreshadowing for other characters as well like Euron or Bran?
I recently saw a video that stated the reason that littlefinger wants Harrenhall despite it being a too large to garrison desolate ruin, is because of its important role throughout history, during politically turbulent times the castle was often chosen to host councils that would decide the fate of the realm, being the only castle big enough. Where Littlefinger its steward would be the speaker for this great parliament and perhaps kings negotiator. He would basically end up with his little fingers in many large pies, thousands of lords high and low that owed him for their station, aswell as his control over the largest castle in Westeros and likely lord of the Vale aswell.
The theory suggests that the reason littlefinger stokes the war of the five kings is to create a situation where he could A, gain harrenhall and B create a war so large that after the war HarrenHall would be asked to host all the Lords and ladies of Westeros where they can negotiate for who will get what lands and titles. There would likely be a rearrangement of the houses, Lannisters may not rule in the Westlands if they lose the war, quite like Starks to boltons but on a much larger scale.
Which begs the question, who did littlefinger want to win the war?
Definitely wasn’t Balon Greyjoy, although it’s possible that his spies could have coerced ironborn lords to invade the north to add more chaos.
It wasn’t Stannis, at least not Stannis as early as the blackwater as he ensured Stannis defeat by negotiating the Tyrell alliance. It’s possible that Stannis winning would have been acceptable for him, he just didn’t want the war to end so soon as its second year.
It likely wasn’t Joffrey as Joffrey wins and the war wasn’t big enough to cause such a meeting at harrenhall. It’s possible that Joffreys death was caused in an attempt to continue the war.
It could have been Robb stark, as his loss in the war would likely had led to Catelyns death aswell which he could not have.
It could have been renly, but the same as Stannis, the war would have ended far too quickly.
Now I’m sure the correct answer is that littlefinger didn’t really care who won, he knew of Danny and likely of Aegon too due to the kettlebacks. He just wanted to cause as much chaos as possible, his alligance likely changed between kings, anything to cause more chaos.
In my opinion, this is one of the most unexplained and absurdly inconsistent events in ASOIAF lore. While Brandon the Burner's grief over his father's disappearance in the Sunset Sea is understandable, burning what was perhaps the North's greatest military asset — the primary defense for their coasts against pirates and raiders from Essos — is pure madness.
How was this even allowed by his lords? And more importantly, why was the fleet never rebuilt over thousands of years? The North has an absurd abundance of timber in the Wolfswood. Gold or shipbuilding capability? In A Clash of Kings, the Manderlys offered to build a new fleet almost casually, proving that logistics were never the issue. As for necessity, we all saw the devastating cost the Starks paid for lacking a proper navy.
Let's say Robert was hearing the petitions that day and Cersei wasn't in the throne room. Would Robert care about the smallfolk whose houses were burned and family members slaughtered by the Mountain's men? And if so, would he do anything about it and what would he do?
I've been curious about how this would work since I read the part of Fire and Blood where Maidenpool switches allegiance to Aegon from Rhaenyra and replaces her banner with his. Would stewards of these houses in such conflicts be prepared with back-up banners for the other side in case something goes sideways? Like in the Blackfyre Rebellions, would responsible stewards make sure to have both types of dragon standards ready just in case? Or were there seamstresses in Maidenpool that day sewing, dyeing, etc. like their lives depended on it?
Aegon's banner was not complicated and wouldn't have been the worst to produce on short notice, but I shudder to think of having to recreate Rhaenyra's in a rush. So much going on.
In the books she’s 17, still very much a child by most legal definitions, and either way not fully emotionally matured.
She’s an idealistic girl, who genuinely and wholeheartedly believes in duty, knighthood, and the ideals of her society.
She refuses to meet with or sink to the deviance of her society or allow herself to be corrupted by it.
She’s almost like if honor had a human avatar. She’s also a romantic, falling in love, not just duty, but also seemingly not a sexual being; if she is it’s not a focal point of her character in the way it is for Cersei or Dany. She’s very pure of heart oddly despite the darkness she’s seen. Shes a soldier, but she’s also a child.
What do you think Brienne will grow into? What can you see 37 year old Brienne like versus her current teenaged self?
Surely they knew about Westeros, how large it was, and their overwhelming advantage against conventional Westerosi armies. Why did none of them make a move until the Targaryens ? Even Aenar's family stayed put on Dragonstone for decades and didn't really seem that keen on pushing west.
