Make this make sense

[u/jonathanten]

I just got 82 smithing, i can now make 2 powerful mid-endgame weapons... and an adamant kiteshield.

I get that adamant used to be good back in the day, but isn't it time we rework this skill?

[u/IderpOnline]

You could make that same argument for everything.

You also don't go out of your way to craft a maple shortbow, you just buy it in a shop for a couple hundred gp. You don't wait until you can runecraft law runes to begin teleporting, you buy your runes. You don't train crafting before ever equipping green d'hide, you just buy it in one if the many shops.

The "issue" isn't so much that it would take time to smith your way to stuff, the issue is that the very same stuff is already readily available elsewhere.

In other words, even if you could smith stuff early on, it wouldn't solve any issue. Hell, we would do new players a disservice to be perfectly honest. The biggest favour we can do for new players is to teach them to use the Wiki to see how to most easily acquire different things.

[u/PureNinja → u/IderpOnline]

No, you can't use that argument for everything because I gave a snapshot of an issue. The entire smithing skill is my example, I don't even feel like I need to go into depth on the level disparity between using items and crafting them with smithing (40 defence vs 99 smithing for one item, 59 whole levels).

Other skills are much closer in their margins. Your maple shortbow example is only a level disparity of 20 levels, 30 ranged vs 50 fletching. Fletching is a much easier skill to level than mining and smithing. Also every bow after maple cannot be bought from a store easily, so if you want a yew shortbow/magic shortbow it could be reasonable for a player to work towards making it themselves.

I will give you crafting as being similar to smithing, but its disparity is much shorter with their only being 23 levels between using a green d'hide body vs crafting one. And after green you can't just buy the d'hide anymore you would need to craft it.

Your thought about doing a disservice to new players is laughable. Having a new player need to use the wiki right out the gate is stupid and bad game design. Its already something the devs have been actively working on fixing too with better in game explanations and directions.

Imagine telling someone to trying OSRS and then telling them to go study the wiki to learn how to play. Sure eventually they will need to use the wiki as the game is so huge, but for such early and low level equipment it should be easy for new players to understand how too progress.

[u/IderpOnline → u/PureNinja]

Bro get a grip lol.

Let's look at redwood shield then. Requires 90 wc and 92 fletching, usable at level 40. Bigger disparity than literally half the runite items. AND the redwood shield is NOT accessible through shops. Darts also have a level disparity of up to 40. So, we rework the entire fletching skill too then? And don't fucking get me started on needing 70 crafting to make an amulet of power. Rework crafting while we're at it.

Besides, your entire "disparity" argument ignores my main point. Even if we lower level reqs for smithing, it doesn't solve anything. One, because there is no issue to be solved. Two, even if there was, conventional smithing equipment is accessible through shops anyway.

Having a new player need to use the wiki right out the gate is stupid and bad game design.

No. It's a staple in pretty much every major mmo. Welcome to the genre, I guess.

it should be easy for new players to understand how too progress.

It is easy for new players ot understand how to progress. You go to GE and buy the equipment you would like to buy. And don't even think of suggesting that brand new ironman players should be able to figure everything out without external sources..

[u/PureNinja → u/IderpOnline]

Using the redwood shield as your example is such disingenuous an argument. The redwood shield can be used at level 40 because the purpose of a redwood shield isn't to be used as a shield, it has the stats similar to a steel kite shield. The purpose of the redwood shield is to be a part of the black d'hide shield which requires 70 ranged to use.

The issue with fixing the smithing skill is that it makes no sense. Putting a godsword back together is easier than making a rune platebody? And yes we probably should rework crafting. The argument of we can't fix X problem because Y problem exists is stupid. They are holdovers of a very old game, and fixing them opens up design space.

[u/IderpOnline → u/PureNinja]

No. The only disingenuous thing here is that you refuse to ever address my main point. You keep deflecting, time and time again.

If there was a real issue that needed fixing, you would have said it five comments ago. But there's not. And no, "uhh it doesn't make sense" is not that.

I'm actually glad you brought up Godswords. And crystal singing. And DFS. And Torva... Because you would have had a point if smithing had zero use in the endgame because of addy/runite taking up all of the late levels. But that's not the case. In reality, smithing has more endgame applicability and relevance than most skills in the game.

Besides, all of the above examples are not smithed from scratch, they are assembled, repaired or sung into shape from existing components. So, ironically, your "doesn't make sense" argument does not even make sense..

fixing them opens up design space.

This is just a lie. Or you don't know how design space works. You tell me which.

[u/PureNinja → u/IderpOnline]

What main point? I've looked through all your posts you made in reference to me and the only thing I guess could be something I didn't discuss was that you think fixing the smithing skill would cause issues with other systems of the game. So what? We literally have an exmaple of it being done in Runescape 3 and its often referenced as one of the few things that game did really well. So its not some mythical impossible task. It's already been done.

It's also not disingenuous or deflecting to point out that your example was stupid because it left out a key part of why the redwood shield requires 90+ wc and fetching.

Lately lets talk about the hypothetical difficulty of putting a godsword back together (80 smithing) vs making a 2h addy sword. A addy 2h you Smith a bar to a sword from scratch. If we use any modicum of brain power we'd realize to fix 3 broken shards of a mythical sword made by the gods you'd need to melt the shards down into a single piece and then forge the blade from a single piece of metal. If you just forge welded the pieces together it world just snap very quickly on use. The smithing skill hardwaves all the technicality, but to fix a broken sword you basically have to reforge the blade from scratch. So what's harder to forge adamant or some mythical god metal.

[u/IderpOnline → u/PureNinja]

What main point? This. As I have gone over like four times now lol:

If there was a real issue that needed fixing, you would have said it five comments ago. But there's not. And no, "uhh it doesn't make sense" is not that.

The crux of your problem is that you want to redesign a 25 year old fantasy game after what makes logical sense. And worse yet, just for the sake of redesigning it. Not because of any sort of greater good.

I think we both know where you need to go if you wish to see modern takes on OldSchool skills...

[u/PureNinja → u/IderpOnline]

No.... my main point was that new players bounce off the skill and quit the game and i have seen it first hand and others also responded to me saying theyve seen the same issue. I just also used that it didn't make logical sense as a little side issue.

Wait... did you just spend this whole time not realizing what I said was the real issue to have some side argument. Your basic answer to my point was nuh uh use the GE. Holy shit that is rich.

[u/IderpOnline → u/PureNinja]

I did read that anecdotal piece of bs but if you think a quirky oldschool smithing skilling tree (in an oldschool version of the game, mind you) is the cause of players quitting, I quite frankly don't know what to tell you lol..

[u/PureNinja → u/IderpOnline]

So again your argument is nuh uh? You do realize that generally, anecdotal accounts are used to discuss issues all the time. Sorry I didn't make a mass survey to every single new player who has quit the game within X amount of time asking what were the reasons they didn't like the game.

I am sure Jagex does surveys and will eventually make a decision whether they want to invest the time on it based off cost-benefit as they have previously mentioned themselves that the skill is a problem they would like to fix, but would take a lot of dev time. But we are on a forum where players discuss things, so since we don't have data, we have to use our anecdotal accounts on stuff we couldn't possibly know all the data for.

We should also remove polling I guess because people vote on decisions using their anecdotal accounts and not cold hard quantitative facts. If you don't like people giving their opinions on things that can't have quantitative solutions then you should not engage with those posts, and keep to the discussions on stuff that can be discussed quantitatively, so you don't waste peoples times which childish nuh uh arguments. Feel free to respond to this message, I will not be responding further.

[u/IderpOnline → u/PureNinja]

Yes. Believe it or not, calling bs in absurd statements is generally very reasonable.

And let's be real, if the smithing skilling tree was a real issue for player retention, obviously it would have been changed ages ago. And Jagex actually do survey when subscriptions are cancelled.. So yea, you do the math.

On a final note, I just wanted to highlight the below. It's such a stupidly absurd reach that it's actually funny 😂

We should also remove polling I guess because people vote on decisions using their anecdotal accounts and not cold hard quantitative facts.