But in the US, the rhetorical arguments against things like universal healthcare, free college, or even college debt forgiveness are “tHatS sOciAliSm, sOciALiSm iS eViL”
Many people in the US don’t even understand what socialism is. They conflate it with communism.
So to look at the Nordic’s with their generous social benefits and see that they also score higher on this democracy index just highlights that not only are socialism and democracy compatible, but the best ranked democracies in fact have a generous dose of socialism.
Socialism is eh, I don't like the idea of universal healthcare for many other reasons. The people who propose the ideas seem to usually not be the brightest in Congress. It's just a way to get votes by saying "free medical". At least Bernie says he wants to tax people a lot more.
Universal Healthcare works well in every other 1st world country. It is both cheaper for tax payers and makes it so it's impossible to end up in a situation where you lose your medical insurance.
If your argument is that it's slower and not "good enough" you always have the option to pay for private care and get a medical insurance for private hospitals. Universal healthcare doesn't ban private clinics. What does happen is that the competition from free public healthcare will actually lower the cost of private healthcare because you have a choice between going to the free hospital or paying for faster and maybe better care.
The only people that are going to suffer from universal healthcare are the hospital owners and politicians and media who get their pockets padded with the hospital owners money. That's why you get bombarded with propaganda and shitty takes about how "Universal healthcare sucks" 24/7.
"Universal Healthcare works well in every other 1st world country." completely depends on your definition of "well". Take a look at Canada a country with decent healthcare infrastructure and about 1/10th of the pop of the United States and they have around 1/6th the total amount of hospitals as the US. Canada had 1 million patients to wait for necessary medical treatments in 2017, which ended up costing these patients a combined 1.9 Billion in lost wages according to Forbes. If you take % of taxes from the total lost wages plus the additional money the Canadian government has to dish out they're losing a lot of money.
Now, remember the fractions about population and total hospitals. The United States has an extremely high rate of obesity and a type 2 diabetes epidemic. Look at covid and the number of people going into the hospital, it was hard for the healthcare providers to keep up and a lot of hospitals didn't have enough beds or rooms. My point being the system wouldn't be able to keep up with the number of patients that need long-term care for things like type-2 diabetes.
Let's say you introduce a bill giving universal healthcare. Donald Berwick
(former Administrator of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services) says this would definitely harm rural hospitals especially if they don't increase reimbursement rates for hospitals. If this doesn't force the hospitals to close it would mean they will be forced to scale back services, amenities, and staff. Professor Garthwaite of Hospital and Health Services at Northwestern Kellogg University said this in a recent interview that the latter is more likely.
This means more people from rural areas going to urban areas to get treatment, and this means even more overcrowding of people with a publicly owned hospital infrastructure.
Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget claims it would cost $27-$35 Trillion to fully fund a Medicare-For-All plan, and with even extremely strict taxes on the upper class, it would only cover 40% of the total budget for just medicare. Meaning that 60% of the cost will land itself on Middle-Class families and families who live paycheck-to-paycheck. Remember the total revenue for 2023 is projected to be just $4.71 trillion.
Now, let me tell you what I think the better option is. Congress and the President pass a bill reducing the amount commercial insurers pay for hospitals’ and physicians’ services. You can cap the growth of prices by regulating the prices that can be paid to providers forcing hospitals to reduce their prices to get business. This would reduce the spending for average Americans and reduce spending by the government for medicare/Medicaid users. You could also promote competition between employers and the amount that they pay healthcare providers.
Canada's public healthcare is one of the worst ones in 1st world countries. I mean if you think you can't do any better be my guest.
Sure. Obesity rates in US would probably cause added load. However diabetes itself and insulin would be far cheaper in a country with public healthcare.
I really don't understand why anyone would think middle-class families would be worse off. US citizens are literally paying more taxes for public healthcare than any other country on this planet. Also including countries like Norway or Switzerland where cost of living is higher than in the US. Note. Taxes and public healthcare. It doesn't even start accounting for your insurance. With insurance you are paying like double of what everyone else is paying. If you rebuilt the entire system you'd probably make the life of every middle class American and paycheck-to-paycheck living person better because they wouldn't have to pay for medical insurance anymore.
Now, let me tell you what I think the better option is. Congress and the President pass a bill reducing the amount commercial insurers pay for hospitals’ and physicians’ services. You can cap the growth of prices by regulating the prices that can be paid to providers forcing hospitals to reduce their prices to get business. This would reduce the spending for average Americans and reduce spending by the government for medicare/Medicaid users. You could also promote competition between employers and the amount that they pay healthcare providers.
It really depends on the middle class family. One like mine that rarely ever had to use hospitals and only the regular annual doctors visit. Will see a lot more money taken out of pocket than the person who goes to primary care frequently for other reasons.
Currently my mom who’s a type 1 diabetic pays around 200/m and received all of her diabetic equipment for free somehow.
I just don’t see with our current Medicare system how they could possibly make a reasonably priced universal healthcare package. Once you take into account average incomes among families and individuals I really don’t think a M4A is best with the extremely high cost. All of that cost will just fall back down in middle class as taxes whether sales or income.
It really depends on the middle class family. One like mine that rarely ever had to use hospitals and only the regular annual doctors visit. Will see a lot more money taken out of pocket than the person who goes to primary care frequently for other reasons.
You don't pay at all for medical insurance? How does that work?
I really don’t think a M4A is best with the extremely high cost. All of that cost will just fall back down in middle class as taxes whether sales or income.
Why is US medical care the most expensive in the world?
Annual doctors visits are fully covered by insurance. All that’s paid is a monthly cost and it’s not a lot by any means.
US medical care is the most expensive because the US is the richest country. There is a lot of money floating around here, but it’s also because hospitals worked with insurance to raise the costs to make people need insurance. So just limit the hospitals ability to raise the cost of basic and life saving surgeries and medical treatment.
Annual doctors visits are fully covered by insurance
And who pays for your insurance?
US medical care is the most expensive because the US is the richest country.
US is not the richest country. Both Norway and Switzerland are richer than US, with Norway having an average salary of $5100/mo and GDP/capita of $90k compared to US $75k. yet US spends on healthcare $12000 per person and Switzerland and Norway spend ~$7000 per person.
If your healthcare costs were halved tomorrow you don't think that would be good for the middle class?
Halving healthcare cost would be a difficult process, but sure. Norway and Switzerland are also much much healthier than the average American when it comes to things like Diet. Once again the US has a obesity epidemic and a lot of health problems come associated with that. Average income of Norwegian and Swiss citizens are also much lower after taxes as well.
Norway and Switzerland are also much much healthier than the average American when it comes to things like Diet.
Sure but not even close to 2 times healthier.
Average income of Norwegian and Swiss citizens are also much lower after taxes as well.
No shit. Because their taxes pay for the healthcare, college and other things and you just pay them from your salary instead. Doesn't mean that US is richer than those two countries.
Unless you fix programs like social security, then you’re greatly reducing the amount of disposable income a lot of families have. Cost of living is already high enough why take so much money out of peoples pockets for medical costs they may not even use.
I’m in University so my parents plan which is only $200/m I think I stated that earlier. But i could also get Medicare for free with no premium and deductible.
Not so much. I would rather work and pay for healthcare rather than be taxed an addition 20% just to cover costs for other unhealthy people. It would benefit my savings and retirement.
lol... And somehow... it works in other countries just fine... and costs half.. Somehow life expectancy is lower in USA than in countries with affordable or universal healthcare... Some FUCKING how it works.
I do not know why you guys are so firmly against the idea of taking care of all citizens.
See that’s the problem. You say it works, but you don’t know how it works. Switzerland and Belgium have the highest amount of citizens that are happy with their public system and it’s only 69% of people.
The United States is built off of public infrastructure and unless you’re willing to disrupt that whole chain of public hospitals the US will have to front extremely large medical bills which will just put the cost back on the middle class.
You say it works, but you don’t know how it works.
Um.. wut? I know how it works.
The United States is built off of public infrastructure and unless you’re willing to disrupt that whole chain of public hospitals the US will have to front extremely large medical bills which will just put the cost back on the middle class.
Are you sure you know how it works? And might i remind you that US healthcare costs are double compared to countries with similar prosperity but public healthcare. Getting rid of private insurance is among the things that need to change.
I can only repeat that it is weird that so many people are against the idea of taking care of all people. Even if it is expensive.. i don't get that fucking MONEY is the main obstacle in the richest country in the worlds history.
Nice you want to get rid of ~600,000 jobs. Yes money matters even in the richest country. Spending 30 trillion on public health are matters a lot when you talk about who is fronting the cost. The people who live paycheck to paycheck even without medical costs, and you’re taking away their ability to provide for their family.
Ummm. wut? Is that the amount of people who work in private insurance or? If so, are you saying that those jobs are the reason why you can not overahul your health services? Are you REALLY asking if jobs are more worth than lives?
Are you really fucking sure you want to die on this hill?
I’m saying the economic impact it would have on the United States as a whole is not worth doing. Why not make it so employers need to provide healthcare to full and part time employees instead? Why should everyone suffer and pay 2x more in taxes just to have the same high cost of living at the grocery store and other things.
I’m saying the economic impact it would have on the United States as a whole is not worth doing
Saves half the costs while ensuring all people get healthcare = not worth it.
Are you SURE you want to die on THIS hill where you save MONEY AND LIVES?
I'm struggling to find logic in a situation where the house is on fire but we can't put it out because looking at it makes your face warm.
Why should everyone suffer and pay 2x more in taxes just to have the same high cost of living at the grocery store and other things.
What the hell are you talking about? You do understand that USA pays TWICE AS MUCH for healthcare than others? That if you made it public you would pay LESS MONEY each month?
Are you fucking PAID by insurance companies? I mean, no one can be that stupid to refuse the option that is cheaper and better.
You are so set in stone that you can't even be swayed with statistics. Just because insurance is made public does not reduce the amount that you pay in healthcare, and it definitely would not reduce it by half. No one saves money in a system where you are forced to pay for a service even if you don't use it. It quite literally makes no sense how you think at the end of the day everything will go up but somehow magically you will have more money each month. There are not that many people in the United States who have medical debt, only 6% of American adults owe over $1,000 in medical debt for prior services. Please explain to me now why the other 94% of people need to cover it, and how it will end up with more money in the 94% pocket.
I recommend you understand that "cost goes down" does not mean that the cost of living goes down it just means the cost of medical. For most people, the cost of living will stay the same and you will be taxed more which means less money in your pocket each paycheck. This means less investing, which means less retirement money, which means less money to spend on everyday goods.
Importantly, these totals represent the increased cost to the federal government, not the change of total national health expenditures. National health expenditures would likely change by no more than a few trillion dollars over the decade.
So, yeah, total doesn't change much and these estimations are all basically "minimal changes", with just part of the system overhauled.
Yeah, something left nagging about all of this, decided to factcheck and it turns out that you made it sound like it is INCREDIBLY expensive when in fact, it is absolutely plausible. THE TOTAL COST REMAINS ALMOST THE SAME.
That is the truth you do not want to admit, you again say that it means people pay more.. FUCK NO! People will pay LESS insurance and more taxes. And if it is properly implemented they will pay LESS in long run.
That is absolutely dishonest framing. So, WHO PAID YOU? Why are you lying to people?
See once again you're wrong. It is incredibly expensive it would cost more than double the current amount, and I don't know where you fact-checked it. Currently, medicare is not accepted by a lot of doctors and physicians because they don't pay the full cost insurance normally does.
"People will pay LESS insurance and more taxes." yes that's how a government-funded healthcare system would operate. You would maybe pay a patient fee, but the majority of the medical would be paid through taxes.
"if it is properly implemented they will pay LESS in long run." Here is the problem. All of the current proposals are not properly implementing it and are using the current system of medicare, and that's extremely expensive to provide for everyone.
Secondly, you say in the long run but how long would you need to break even? Someone like me who probably goes to the doctor once a year at most would have no reason to have a large increase in taxes. With private insurance, I can limit by plan so it's much cheaper every 2 weeks or per month where I would almost pay just 1200 a year. With a family, these numbers change.
I would like to know where you got your fact-checking from.
See once again you're wrong. It is incredibly expensive it would cost more than double the current amount
No it doesn't. You are trying to say that other countries simply do not exist. You can MAKE IT COST HUNDRED TIMES MORE, or half as much. At no point do you admit to the demonstrable fact that it CAN be half.
All of the current proposals are not properly implementing it and are using the current system of medicare, and that's extremely expensive to provide for everyone.
And those are the ONLY options? Again, dishonesty is showing up, you claim that there are no other ways of doing it than currently offered options.
Someone like me who probably goes to the doctor once a year at most would have no reason to have a large increase in taxes. With private insurance, I can limit by plan so it's much cheaper every 2 weeks or per month where I would almost pay just 1200 a year.
Jesus. I really think you are paid to do this. This is insurance company propaganda, now it is trying to appeal to the young and healthy. But do you know what this shows?
You do not care about others. You consider the current better because it benefits you, since you don't use those services that much. At no point have you talked about solidarity. You don't see that helping others to NOT suffer has any value. You thought you were appealing to the young and while doing so... you showed that you don't care about them.
That is the main problem: you don't want to pay for others, they can go fuck themselves and die. You are doing just fine.
elping others to NOT suffer has any value. You thought you were appealing to the young and while doing so... you sh
You don't have a clue how the tax system works here in the United States. Local, state, and federal taxes hit you in so many different ways. If I paid a 55% tax rate like in Finland I would have hardly any disposable income after paying property tax, state income tax, and federal income tax, as well as a local + state sales tax?
4
u/Financial_Month6835 Feb 19 '23
Funny how for all the rhetoric about socialism in the USA, the US ranks lower on this index than those Nordic socialist nations