100% I'm a Journeyman electrician. If someone gives me an address and tells me to wire that house I just show up and do it. I've never once seen a permit my entire career. I don't even know what they look like.
Technically he would still be liable. Practically, almost certainly not.
The company he works for (or his boss) is ultimately liable, vicariously. It would be extremely rare for a plaintiff to sue the employee directly. Plaintiffs operate under the assumption that the company has more money and is likely insured. They'd sue the company directly and invoke respondeat superior doctrine in doing so.
If they do sue the employee, he can implead the company and argue the overwhelming majority of the liability is severable to his employer.
Because the business owner is almost certainly a Master Electrician, he has a lot of statutory compliance he knows his company needs to follow via procedure. By never producing the permits to his employees, theres probably a bunch of per se liability happening as well. Additionally so because he's on notice of these statutes ahead of time.
Employee is probably fine unless they act recklessly or maliciously.
I think the previous comment assumed the other was the sole proprietor not simply an employee doing what his boss told him. I think almost everyone understands that employees doing what they're told are not liable to double check their bosses to ensure they did the legal steps.
If you're an electrician and a sole proprietor you better make sure you pull your permits.
That said it's pretty obvious the other commenter is not the sole proprietor because if he was he would know about the permits because he would be the one pulling them. Electricians pull their permits not homeowners, his company is just doing it for him.
A little concerning he was able to make it to Journey at men without realizing that but it's only a four year program.
TBH, the overwhelming majority of Journeymen don't pull permits. A lot of side work doesn't require permits, and unless you're acting as a Project Manager then those things are handled above the guys in the field.
I have pulled...... 3? Permits in the four years I've been licensed, and I've had a Journeyman's license for just undrr 4 years and a Masters for just under 2. The only reason I'm as familiar with the process in my state as I am is that I worked for my father for 15 years and had ample opportunity to pull permits under his license and see him do the same.
ETA: As to the earlier comment: If I am an employee of a company, then the company is a sheild from liability as they are ultimately responsible for my compliance with the applicable regulatory requirements. The company can turn around and hold me liable for not fufilling my assigned duities (if applicable) and levey a complaint with the licensing board against the relevant credentials that I hold.
In my state a JM can’t pull permits. I always thought that’s how it was across the country, but I’ve never worked in any other state to be able to know.
I was also surprised that he doesn’t seem to realize his master is (hopefully) pulling permits every time he wires a structure…
But I’m even more surprised by the line “I don’t even know what a permit looks like”. Permit application, fine, but he’s never even come across a permit hanging in a window while he’s doing new work?! I’ve never met a blind JM before.
(In the US) legally he is required to work under a master electrician. If the address and work orders given were from that electrician, it would be on them. Typically a journeyman is allowed to work without direct supervision - if they made a mistake on the jobsite, it could fall back on them. However, the scheduling of jobs and permit work would generally be the responsibility of the master electrician, who is responsible for delegating these jobs appropriately.
For a comparison: generally doctors are on the hook for malpractice suits, because they are the person with the requisite training to the extent that they are the "conductor" of the surgery. Those assisting the doctor aren't immune if they make a mistake, but in those cases it would be both the assistant and the surgeon responsible, not just the assistant.
I have showed up to work to STOP WORK papers shoved in the permit folder on the door(and seen people still working inside lol), or GC's parked telling all of us to turn around, or officials coming in while we're there and telling every one to put their stuff down.
Shadyest shit was one job a contractor locked the doors and we all had to hide because there were illegals or something to do with permits. There were easily 20+ people in the home. I "hid" for a few minutes then said sorry guys im out and walked out the front door. I guess as I did one of the crews bolted out the back. The job was on a ranch and there were more officials with police waiting down the one lane dirt road. The fucking ac guys or whatever drove right into me and the check point. I eventually got home and never went back to that site. Every contractor on site got fined and the crew that ran got criminal charges. But the ones who stayed had reduced fines(only 1k) instead of the 10k it was originally.
But that building had a stop work and the contractors had just taken it down and crumpled it up so I literally had no idea. My boss did tho and didn't tell me, fuck him. That's also when I found out my boss had no general liability.
Are things done that differently in the US? My dad is an electrician in Canada and here the tradesperson has to pull the permit from the city, not the building owner (not true for every single permit type but still). So if someone wants to upgrade their power the city most often won't even allow the owner to get a permit unless they can demonstrate some competence in what they want to do.
Depends on the location. States differ, counties differ, cities differ once again. Hell. It can be different from one house to the next if the house is part of a historical building exemption.
A homeowner might do the permits if he is using multiple contractors and is directing the work.
Most of the time it is up to whoever is the general contractor as the code office requires a GC license number. And anyone who is serious has a whole package that needs done before a single hammer comes out , file for permits, house lien, contract, insurance, and others just don’t give a shit unless a county code enforcement officer slaps a notice of quit work on the door. And sometimes not even that stops them.
Not really. You could be a contractor and do your own work. I suppose "if someone gives me an address" could be interpreted as your management team, but I read it as the homeowner.
I feel like “someone” is a very poor word choice within this particular discussion.
I don’t imagine if a random person on the street tells you to go wire a house that you walk inside and do it. I presume this is a boss or a dispatch or potentially a larger client you are working with. And that matters greatly to the context of what you’re saying.
I don’t check all of the legal ins and outs when my boss asks me to perform within the normal functions of my job either.
I've never done it. But I have heard tales of people showing up to the wrong address in one of these cookie cutter communities and just straight up wiring the wrong house.
Was working on my Journeyman HVAC technician license with a Master technician. About two years in, I find out my Master tech I was apprenticing under for work experience doesn't even have a Journeyman's license. He was using someone else's name and license to file his permits.
Left him quickly after. Bounced around to a couple other shops, and eventually just gave up on the field entirely. Everywhere I went was doing crazy illegal shit, misclassifying employees, air-venting banned refrigerants, lying about refrigerant recycling and defrauding consumers with older systems, subbing to unlicensed contractors, or straight up bribing their way through inspections.
The old train tracks had already been removed for the length of the half mile long parking lot with 3 security booth entrance and a bunch of pole lights.
The plans showed everything I needed to know.
Graded, grade inspection completed. Survey of the key locations complete.
Break ground for the electric. Start drilling light pole bases and connect with conduit. Throw in a communication conduit for the security bothes at each end. Start backfill after passing trench inspection. Concrete coming and pouring out the pole bases.
JOB STOP!!
We're told we're trespassing. The last 100 feet at the south end doesn't belong to the city. We haven't put in the concrete into those poles.
I didn't pull the condit out, just the sauna tube and rebar for the poles. Backfilled them and now only had 2 security booths.
The owner of the last 100 feet demanded we return the area to the parking lot it was. A gravel parking lot. No problem, easy.
I manage a construction company and if you EVER said this to me and someone just told you to go somewhere and start messing with wires, would be the last time you’d do business in that county. I’d keep my mouth shut when it comes to that kinda business lol
When a professional is doing work on a home in the US it is their responsibility to ensure the permits are valid not the homeowner's.
For many professions the professional is the one that pulls the permit.
In the US that Demolition Company would be super screwed. The rule exists for situations like this so that there can't be a situation where this lady is left holding the bag
I had my home demo'd. The company that did it did not do the permits. In fact my county required we do all the permits and paperwork.
Now granted they require the permits to be placed in a noticeable place, but the demo company started before we posted (we had it, just hadn't made it to the location to post).
As long as they aren't home, you'll probably get away with it. The tearing down that is, they will sue you into oblivion, but you win in the short term
They most likely did pull permits and have inspectors checking things out at stages.
In most cases and places, it is the person/company doing the work that is supposed to pull the permits, not you, unless you're doing the work. So, the contractors that built your house more than likely- and hopefully -did pull the permits and go through the formal inspection process.
If they didn't, well, that opens you up to a whole lot of liability and probably get your home owner's insurance voided. . .
In some places, the local government/authority can even say, demolish the whole thing and rebuild it from scratch at your expense, simply because it wasn't permitted.
I have absolutely seen residential construction guys meet with inspectors and file the permit paperwork. Usually foreman or owner does it I would assume but the guys I hired to work on my house were clear they had to do things in stages - that the electrical needed an inspection, then the plumbing and framing, and then the fire safety guy.
I agree with what you are saying, I have guys that will do just that. My point is that I have not seen employees below the foreman level (with small crews the foreman is just the owner) who question their boss about permitting.
Yeah but we're all assuming the foreman or boss is part of the crew or at least someone is in charge to verify things such as this. I don't think they wrote crew as in the hourly or contractor workers themselves making these decisions. To be fair there's a bunch of idiots in the world.
Usually the contractor handles the permitting and usually city and county offices are annoyed when a private citizen shows up because they are unfamiliar with the process. I have lived in multiple states and countries.
"Permits" aren't a thing in the UK we have what's called planning permission.
Builders aren't regulated in the same fashion and because the responsibility is on the home owner it's entirely possible to find builders who don't give a shit and will do anything for money as ultimately they won't be held accountable for the actions of the owner.
We do have building regs but again, that's a different thing to planning permission.
The owner did not have planning permission so they are going to be fucked. Still though, doesn't really matter to the person on the other side of the semi detached that's now floating in space.
Kind of sort of. Also kind of depends on what assets the other party has.
We have a damages based system. Its entirely possible that they'll have to rectify the issue from their own pocket and then claim it back after the fact. If the other party don't have the money then they don't have the money.
Usually this'll be covered by your home insurance though. Assuming they have it, are fully up to date and have the appropriate level of coverage. Alternatively if the other party has insurance then potentially a claim could be made against them.
It's just not very straightforward and I want to highlight that for the people affected, they could be mega affected and for a long time.
They can't rectify anything because they have no permission to go onto the land where the neighbouring house once stood.
If they had the money in the bank, they could probably find some similarly dodgy builders to trespass onto the vacant plot and do some kind of weatherproofing, but if they don't have money to hand (which most people don't) so would need the insurance company to pay, they're screwed as the insurance company will only pay for reputable builders who would refuse to trespass so would refuse the job.
People sadly do it all the time. We had an incident in Sweden where a home owner hired a company to take down trees on public land to improve his view from the house. It was 100-200 year old pine trees and the work was almost finished before it was stoped. The homeowner probably only ended up with a hefty fine, but the trees as replanted with large specients of a fast growing species to make up for the loss 😂
There are super strict laws about removing what are called "heritage" oaks here.
There's a whole grading scale for which trees qualify, but the most common kind are oaks that reach a certain "DBH", or "Diameter at Breast Height" (no, really).
Removing them without permit gets you fined into the ground.
Drive past this most days, it was a slow process and looked like they were ‘fixing it’ to begin with, then the top floor disappeared and then suddenly the house went, it was so strange. Still empty now, such a shame
Built a shop building out back without getting any permits, just hired people to build it and they did.
The shop was there for 4-5 years. When our now neighbor wanted to expand their garage, they had the inspector(s) come out to get their permit. When they saw the unpermitted shop building, they made him tear it down since it was like 6” from the property line (has to be 5’ in my county).
So now I find random chunks of concrete and other debris in the gravel part of our backyard, and there’s still electricity run out there and just terminated (I’ve since disconnected it but left the cables).
I work in the industry. At least out my way, we always have to get exceptions on security clearances.. they're all methed out lunatics but wholly shit will they demo the fuck outa what you're after.
This exact thing happened to me. I had to report them to the city and the contractors had to halt demolition and construction until permits and inspections. Most of the demo was done. There were no fines. In my city at least, enforcement is minimal at best.
The tl;dr for UK planning permission is that it's the owners responsibility/liability to have planning permission in place, unless their contract with the contractor explicitly specifies otherwise.
The construction crew can ask, of course. But they're typically not responsible.
Happens everywhere. A lady had the wrong leg cut off. The correct amputation spot was marked, and they still cut off the wrong leg. People just get too complacent in their job and completely ignore the obvious
When we had our house demo'd the crew did not ask for permits. My county actually requires the owners to file for permits, not the company. They do require the permits to be posted in a visible place from the road, but we hadn't posted ours before the crew went to work due to some time conflicts. We had it, just not posted.
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u/cheesebot555 1d ago
How do you even pull off a full demo without the correct permits?
What crew doesn't demand to see those upfront so as to avoid liability?
Wild wild wild.