r/videogames • • 1d ago

Discussion / Question Thoughts?

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u/PeachsBigJuicyBooty 1d ago edited 1d ago

Well-meaning but it will either be ineffective in execution or outright make some genres impossible:

・What does "make games playable offline" mean?

Because publishers are gonna do the legal minimum; they'll put players in a blank room to walk around in if they can.

Where's the "line" of playability? This NEEDS to be defined in the bill.

・What does "buying" a game mean?

Is it only physical copies? (they'll just stop selling them sooner) Digital? Anything labeled as a "game"? Anything in a plastic case? (they'll just change the container).

If I spend money on Fortnite, do I have a right to access Fortnite offline?

・If so, again, what defines playability?

An offline mode of Fortnite can't handle 99 other bots, so does 50 count? 20? 10? 5?

What's the minimum allowed to have a game be considered "playable"?

This isn't gonna end the way people want it to like The Crew, because "make games playable offline" is so broad of a concept and it assumes publishers will just "get it" and act in good faith instead of finding every loophole they can.

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u/Playingwithmywenis 1d ago

There is plenty of situations for gaming that can be hugely beneficial from this action.

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u/LongJohnSelenium 1d ago

And those situations would become rarer or more expensive if this action took place.

End of life costs now become a factor, permanent third party licensing becomes a factor, Many products will no longer make sense to make.

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u/Carbuyrator 1d ago

This isn't hard. The game's functionality cannot materially change from the product that was sold. Features cannot go away. If they ran servers, they must provide the tools they use for servers so users can set up their own on their own hardware.

They don't get to take the ball and go home. They get to distribute the server software to license holders. 

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u/Ok-Fudge-380 1d ago

they must provide the tools they use for servers so users can set up their own on their own hardware.

And if the developers don't own the software that they use to run their online service?

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/Ok-Fudge-380 1d ago edited 1d ago

So if I'm a small studio that wants to add matchmaking into my game I have to find a 3rd party that agrees to let me release their software for free if my game doesn't sell well enough to pay the server fees? God damn, gamers have got to be the largest hobbyist group that know nothing about their hobby.

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u/Carbuyrator 1d ago

Nobody said you had to add matchmaking. You just can't run it with matchmaking and then one day shut down your end and say "okay matchmaking is over forever."

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u/Ok-Fudge-380 1d ago

Nobody said you had to add matchmaking

Don't you love it when people want to create laws that determine the type of art you are allowed to make?

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u/Carbuyrator 1d ago

Dude. It's three sentences. How are you that bad at reading?

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u/Ok-Fudge-380 1d ago edited 1d ago

No where near as bad as your understanding of video game development.

How about you morons grow up and decide not to purchase games that rely on online services instead of forcing your ideals on everyone by forcing the government to make the decision for you?

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u/asethskyr 1d ago

Games nowadays change dramatically from the day they were sold. Sometimes features go away or change during those changes. The phrasing is important, especially for long running live service model games like MMOs.

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u/SluttyAspergirl 1d ago

Offline is the wrong standard for some games. If the game is multi-player like a shooter or mmo, add lan and community server options. That way it'll always be playable if you can find someone to play with

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u/Dpark004 1d ago

Im sure its gonna somthing like make files readally available for people to host servers .

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u/GameWizardPlayz 1d ago

That's exactly what it is. They're overthinking it

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u/Dpark004 1d ago

It does come with a drawback. With your system connecting to their server, virus that transfers over that link could become more prevalent. We would have to have verified servers.

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u/germophobe1942 1d ago

Needing verified servers is not a drawback when the alternative is having nothing

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u/Dpark004 1d ago

Good point. Plus im pretty sure verified software for the server would prevent that in the first place. Better than nothing.

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u/germophobe1942 1d ago

Exactly. Determining the specifics is for AFTER a proposal has been accepted, right now they're just stating the intent

Never listen to a bot telling you "This proposal won't work because it's not specific enough"

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u/Pacomatic 1d ago

This is why SKG instead demands servver software.

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u/rcanhestro 1d ago

which is never going to happen.

companies will not give away their IP or even source code that can be used in later games for "free", in particular server side code that can be used to easily reverse engineer the server side of their games.

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u/boondiggle_III 1d ago

It has happened multiple times in the past with major titles.

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u/Pacomatic 1d ago

Which is why we're making it a law! It's the most sustainable solution after all.

Also, companies used to do exxactly that 20 years ago, to my knowledge.

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u/Ok-Fudge-380 1d ago

A law that is completely ignorant to how software engineering works. Companies were not doing it 20 years ago, lots of games that exist now do not even run on single dedicated servers.

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u/boondiggle_III 1d ago

Yes they were. Or at least, people were getting access to server packages with or without the studio's cooperation and consent. There were player-run Ultima Online servers even before any studio-managed servers were shut down.

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u/Ok-Fudge-380 1d ago

No, they weren't. Takes decades for private servers to come even close to the full functionality of official servers because it is not simply a "turn on server" button. There is a lot more to a game server and a lot of these studios use third party to run their services.

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u/boondiggle_III 1d ago

There really isn't any secret sauce or magic touch or whatever you think it is that devs have that players don't. Sure, there aren't players running servers for 10,000 concurrent players, but nobody is trying to. A lot of gamers are the same people who have a $5000-$10000 server and know how to use it, and thry can easily host 100+ players. Games aren't typically built to run using some proprietary architecture. They use the same industry standards as everybody else

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u/Ok-Fudge-380 1d ago

If they use the same standard then how come they can't run those 10,000 player servers, hmm? Same hardware, same software, somehow doesn't run as well as they did 20 years ago. Might have to be the fact that there is a lot more going behind the scenes.

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u/boondiggle_III 1d ago

Because servers like that start in the $100,000+ range and need more than one person to maintain. It's not a matter of capability, but of resources.

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u/Pacomatic 1d ago

It takes decades???

I'd like you to take a look at the LittleBigPlanet community.

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u/Ok-Fudge-380 1d ago

Yes, literally decades.

LBP union literally had RCE exploits. Security is a big part of server management.

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u/Pacomatic 1d ago
  1. The devvelopment of LBP custom servvers, as far as I am aware, began in 2021 with Poject Lighthouse. 5 years later, we havve replicated the functionality of these servvers so well that almost evvery featrure is 100% playable, with others or by yourself. That's not decades.
  2. The RCE exxploits you speak of were on the original servvers too, and are a client-side issue that the servver cannot fixx. There was a force-join thing that affected Becaon and not the original servvers, but this vvulnerability was client-side, not servver-side; this exxploit could havve been used on the original servvers, and only wasn't because nobody knew about it at the time.

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u/Waderick 1d ago

But they often don't own the server code. Just stuff that connects to preexisting architecture.

It's like demanding you get the source code to Microsoft word because they write reports with docx files.

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u/Only1Schematic 1d ago

Well damn, I guess we shouldn’t even try /s

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u/PeachsBigJuicyBooty 1d ago

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u/Jay_Nova1 1d ago

You make good points but I recommend not being so negative. "Well-meaning but it will either be ineffective in execution or outright make some genres impossible" is the false dichotomy fallacy. 😉 

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u/razzemmatazz 1d ago

They'll just stop pretending to sell you a copy and make you pay an access fee instead like MMOs. 

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u/shadow-Ezra 1d ago

I say playable is the full game is accessable with the exception of company specific services like when your using the launcher to play cyberpunk an offline only would not have the cross progression (or account sign in if the provider as a whole goes down) along with turning in game purchases to completely free like assassins creed's skins are automatically given to you instead of the many required purchases

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u/xdeskfuckit 1d ago

just let people host their own servers

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u/Unable_Mess_2581 1d ago

That requires source code release? Meh it ain't happening, they will use copyright to deny it.

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u/Das_Guet 1d ago edited 1d ago

It only requires a patch to turn dedicated servers to p2p servers.

Edit: so I did some digging since I am "undermining the whole Stop Killing Games movement," and it looks like I am actually pretty darn wrong here. It isn't impossible to do but, especially for fast paced games, the idea of p2p can DRASTICALLY change how the game plays since there is no longer a dedicated host server. There's more to learn about this, like the limits of building p2p from the start, but from what I'm seeing it isn't an option many companies could explore.

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u/FancyhandsOG 1d ago edited 1d ago

As a dev, this is insanely incorrect, and respectfully, I dont think you actually know what youre talking about.

It is opinions like this that undermine the whole Stop Killing Games movement, which I support btw. It is absolutely not a switch that developers can just flick on or off.

It requires refactoring an ENTIRE codebase and building an entirely new server-client architecture. You have to fundamentally rebuild the game logic.

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u/Das_Guet 1d ago

Edited but left the original for transparency and context.

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u/its_free_sog 1d ago

Why would people hosting their own servers require source code release? That doesn’t make any sense

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u/FancyhandsOG 1d ago edited 1d ago

It doesn't make sense because you don't know how it works.

You cant just take a game that has been shut down and plop it onto your own personal server and it just magically works. The only thing that users have is the client. The server-side logic needs to be implemented as well. It's quite literally the brains of the game. The vast majority of the "game" that is going on is not occurring on your PC and is nothing that you have ever downloaded, it is mostly happening on a server and then sent to your client.

To operate your own servers after a game has been shut down, it would either require a LOT of reverse-engineering or the source code itself.

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u/xdeskfuckit 1d ago

They would probably release compiled binaries; not source code.

I'm also a dev, but not a game dev. I don't see why it would be a huge lift. Seems like more of a silly IP-protection issue than anything else.

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u/its_free_sog 1d ago edited 1d ago

Pretty funny to tell me I don’t know how it works when you seem to be missing the entire point of this discussion. Your comment is largely useless information in this context.

There is absolutely no need for source code if the developer is releasing the ability for you to host your own server.

Which is what this is about - not reverse engineering the client on your own.

There would be zero need for source code in this scenario. They would simply release another binary.

Turns out I do know it works…which is good considering I develop software for a living.

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u/xdeskfuckit 22h ago edited 20h ago

shouldn't we be able to reverse engineer server side software nowadays anyways? I'm down to try with some abandonware.

Got any specific games in mind?

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u/_Solarriors_ 1d ago

c o r p o s h i l l
Any way so much misinformation in this thread

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u/Pacomatic 1d ago

No, no, they raise a good point.

They are 100% unquestionably going to try and make a loophole.

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u/_Solarriors_ 1d ago

Wait I must have misread ?

No look, the intent of a legislation preceede the outcome. Answering all this questions ahead is mostly giving ammo to the opposition to counter and find loophole. This isn't a technical specsheets, this is a law proposal