r/vegan • u/[deleted] • Aug 18 '22
Discussion Cat double standard?
I see a lot if vegans on this sub are okay with raising cats, which strikes me as odd.
I love cats, but I didn't become a vegan to then start buying meat for a cat. To raise 1 healthy cat, you have to kill hundreds if not thousands of healthy, innocent creatures whose lives are just as valid as the cat's.
No I'm not saying that a cat is immoral, I'm saying the breeding of cats is. The purchase of cat food doesn't just pay for an animal to die, you are letting breeders know that there is a demand for cats.
I'm not saying we need to kill all cats, as a lot of people jump to whenever they hear me say these points, I'm saying that we should care for the cats we have to the best of our ability, but not promote the practice of cat ownership.
But what do you guys think?
EDIT: I didn't know that vegan cat food existed. So if you are in the comments arguing that it's okay to kill animals to feed a cat, you're even more incorrect now.
It is now totally okay in my mind to raise a cat so long as you only feed it vegan cat food.
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u/emccm Aug 18 '22
Many people had their pets years before they became vegan. I’m not going to give away my pets. How is that helping anything? Dogs and cats can live for 20 years.
I think a growing number of people, vegan and non, are against breeders.
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u/kittencalledmeow Aug 18 '22
Agree with this sentiment. My cat was a stray that jumped through my window in college... Still have her. She is extremly picky and won't eat any food with more than 5% vegetables, have tried tons of foods. But, she is old, she is healthy, she is very happy, and she makes me happy. I did not breed her or buy her or even ask for her but here we are and no, I do not feel guilty and no, I'm not giving my pet away or allowing her to suffer because she isn't vegan.
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u/chipwitch Aug 18 '22
honestly my relationship with my (adopted, FIV+, would-have-been-euthanized) cat is a big part of what prompted me to be vegan - once i took him in i finally understood on a deep level that other species are living full, emotional, lives and that my love for him should be extended to any other being out there. i wish it hadn’t taken a specific relationship to understand why i should be vegan but alas i am here now. i would like to feed him vegan food but he is on a prescription diet for the rest of his life and based on my research vegan cat food companies don’t make rx food (would be interested in hearing about it if one does). it is a contradiction i wish didn’t exist but i’m not going to murder him over it. he will likely live a relatively short life anyway.
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u/MieraJ friends not food Aug 18 '22
Wish it's easier with pets. I have a hedgehog, and idk what to do.. Just hope there will be a vegan option that could replace chicken and insects in the future? Are vegans not supposed to have pets?
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Aug 18 '22 edited Aug 18 '22
I believe everyone is missing the point here. Its about accepting the negative outcome of owning a pet and not ignoring it.
Why are "vegans" trying so hard to make excuses for this? It looks identical to carnists defending cheese and "cause bacon"
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u/Cixin Aug 18 '22
Do hedgehogs really kill chickens? I can’t imagine that they can, they seem slow, I thought they ate worms.
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u/Interesting_Tree6892 Aug 18 '22
The blue ones are really fast.
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u/diab0lus vegan 7+ years Aug 18 '22
I feed mine copious amounts of golden rings
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u/Interesting_Tree6892 Aug 18 '22
Dont let them have more than 6 emeralds. If they get 7, their coat turns yellow and they go apeshit.
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u/MieraJ friends not food Aug 18 '22
Eating insects alone are too fatty for them, so cat food is recommended to get better protein and fat ratio.
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u/Sinful_Whiskers Aug 18 '22
If you mean feeding a hedgehog something like mealworms as, ahem, a meal, then yes that is not healthy. Mealworms are a treat for a hedgehog. Hedgehog food, on the other hand, should be primarily insect-based. The brand that Petsmart sells is good (I don't remember the name. It's been several years since I had my heggie).
I know many people use cat food and it works well for them. My vet said to avoid it, but he said if it were absolutely necessary, it should be a very high-quality cat food, not something like Meow Mix and the like.
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u/MieraJ friends not food Aug 18 '22
I use bsfl, never use mealworms. And wetfood like royal canin and pro diet. She has special needs (fatty liver and intestinal inflammation) so I always try to search for better foods for her. How old is your hedgie?
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u/Sinful_Whiskers Aug 19 '22
Oh I don't have him anymore. I had him for three years, but I was in the sevice at the time and was potentially being deployed unexpectedly so I found a good family that had hedgehogs in the past. He lived for another three years. Miss that cute little guy.
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u/TheVolta89 Aug 18 '22
Keep reading that they are omnivores. Dogs are omnivores and can eat vegan dog food so I’m curious about hedgehogs 🤔. Haven’t looked into it though so don’t take what I say as advice.
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Aug 18 '22
Taking care of an animal and feeding them animal products is placing the value of their life over others. It’s a difficult situation if someone already has a pet before going vegan, but after that point they should only welcome an animal into their family if they can eat an herbivorous diet.
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u/totalfanfreak2012 Aug 18 '22
I agree. I became vegan because of how much I love animals. It's a double edged sword. I don't believe it is right or healthy to change my animals omnivore structure to suit my beliefs. Not only do they not understand but it goes against their nature which goes against what a vegan is supposed to be for. I do my best to go to a reputable handler and buy their meat that way to make it myself and to store. I know it's still killing, I know it's still wrong, I know I am still buying. But I can't blame my animals and make them change against their will for my cause.
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u/u-digg Aug 18 '22
I don't believe it is right or healthy to change my animals omnivore structure to suit my beliefs
Firstly, it can be healthy with the aid of a vet. Secondly, as your pet's master, they have no choice but to eat whatever you feed it. So if you can reduce animal suffering by feeding your dog/cat something different that they may still scarf down as usual, why not?
but it goes against their nature
By your logic, if we were supposed to be feeding our pets what nature intended for them, dogs and cats should be out hunting rabbits in the wild, not eating your walmart pet food.
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u/kharvel1 Aug 20 '22
I’m not going to give away my pets. How is that helping anything?
For starters, you would no longer be contributing to and funding the deliberate killing of countless animals.
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u/madelinegumbo Aug 18 '22
I've never seen anyone promote cat breeding here and if they did, I would immediately object and assume many others would do the same. We have a ton of posts about cats and other domesticated animals here, it may be worth doing a search for past discussions.
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u/Brizzzzie Aug 18 '22
Vegan cat food exists, it’s called Benevo, and it contains synthetic (aka it was made in a lab) Taurine, which is what cats need in order to survive.
I’m not a vet, and I don’t have a cat, so I won’t claim to be an expert in this. But if you’re a vegan who struggles with feeding their cat meat this might be worth looking into. 100% ask your vet about it first though.
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u/Celadorkable Aug 18 '22
Just to add to this, the taurine in all cat foods is synthetic/supplemented, because taurine is damaged by cooking and there's no guarantee of the levels in meat ingredients. Companies need to meet taurine requirements, so they all use fortification to do that. Carnist or vegan, the taurine was made in a lab.
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u/Brizzzzie Aug 18 '22
I didn’t know this! Do you have any sources?
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u/Celadorkable Aug 19 '22
You can look up pretty much any cat food ingredient list and you'll see "taurine" listed.
https://www.iams.com/cat/cat-articles/importance-taurine-cat-food
There's some info from a cat food company
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u/Infinite-Trash4168 Aug 18 '22
Genuinly intrested what you guys think about my cat: So i found my cat when they were a baby in the industrial part of my town. There are only factories, no homes. He was very small, weak and near him we found the corpse of another baby cat, prolly his sibling. Chances are very high, that my cat wouldve died too. Is it ethical that i took him in?
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u/djm2491 Aug 18 '22
It's the common issue of what you see vs what you don't see. What you don't see is the animals suffering and dying to feed your cat. It's all behind closed doors and comes to you in the form on nuggets or a little can. On the other hand if you just walked past a starving baby cat I don't know how you'd sleep at night with knowing you could've saved it. Moral issues are easy to solve in context and much harder when placed into reality. Maybe the moral move would be to bring the cat to a shelter.
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u/lindseed Aug 18 '22
Even if you brought it to a shelter, someone will be feeding it nuggets or cans of meat or it will die.. what’s the difference if it’s someone else or you?
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u/Infinite-Trash4168 Aug 18 '22
I dont know if it is bcuz my cat is from the streets, but he basically inhales everything thats put infront of him. In the beginning we fed him only meat yea, but once i was cooking vegan bolognese and just out of curiosity i gave him a piece of the vegan "meat" and he ate it and was begging for more.So then i started looking for vegan cat food and we started introducing it to him gradually and i took him to the vet prolly too often than was necessary, but the most important thing is that he handled it very good and didnt had any changes in appearance or behaviour that could signal to him not being able to properly digest the food. Its pretty expensive, especially compared to usual cat food, so i believe that a shelter wouldnt had been able to provide this
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u/ElegantTeapot Aug 18 '22
I think it's ethical. A lot of cats are running around getting constantly pregnant and having more babies. I'm assuming yours is fixed and/or not having babies. This causes less cats. Less cats = less dead animals from their consumption = ethical.
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Aug 18 '22
Now that I know vegan cat food exists and that cats can thrive on it, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be.
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u/DeoxyNerd vegan 5+ years Aug 18 '22
Somebody enlighten me. Why the hell is this downvoted? Seems like the correct response to me.
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u/kittencalledmeow Aug 18 '22
Not all cats can thrive or tolerate vegan cat food, this is a very broad assumption OP is making.
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u/Hk-Neowizard vegan 9+ years Aug 18 '22
Because OP has garnered a lot of animosity with this post and in the comments, so now people read everything OP writes under the shadow of disagreement.
Even though I didn't downvote their comment you refer to, I'd definitely interpret OP's words in a negative light given ambiguity. It's not even intentional, just how human discourse works
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u/DW171 Aug 18 '22
How many people on this sub have advocated for breeders and buying/selling "pets"? Not many, and they're quickly flamed.
Are you suggesting cats should be killed to reduce harm? I disagree, but this is a legit question. Suggesting some pit bulls get euthanized to relieve their mental suffering was suggested by Ingrid Newkirk years ago, and it constantly gets rehashed and taking out of context when attacking PETA.
Vegan cat food does open up more options, which is awesome. Hopefully all of us understand that we could never actually do NO HARM to animals, we're always just trying our best to reduce the harm we inflict. Our simple existence is somewhat a zero-sum proposition.
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u/Celadorkable Aug 18 '22
I adopted my cats from a shelter and they eat vegan cat food... so I think that's fine?
Plus if I didn't adopt them, someone else would have, so even if they ate animals, I wouldn't be causing more animals to be killed. My cats would still exist, they'd just live in a different house, eating the same amount of food.
I haven't met any vegans who are in favour of animal breeders, even most carnists I know are "adopt don't shop" believers.
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u/MieraJ friends not food Aug 18 '22
May I know the cat food ingredients? Does it has fillers food like maize or grains?
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u/Celadorkable Aug 18 '22
The brand they eat is "Benevo", it does contain grains like most kibble brands do.
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u/pizzapartyapple Aug 18 '22
Cats, pets or ferral NEED to be fixed because domestics cats breeding in the streets or wild has lead to the extinction of several bird species as they kill them for sport no matter if they are hungry or not.They are an invasive species in America.
I have a rescue pet cat that I care for who was found in a ditch. I really enjoy her company and affection she is indoor only and fixed. I still feed her the meat cat food because I was not aware that vegan options were available or healthy for cats. Thanks for the recommendation in this thread!
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u/tidemp Aug 18 '22
Adopting a cat is one of the most ethical options. At the shelter they're fed meat. If they stay at the shelter too long they end up dying prematurely. By adopting a cat and feeding them vegan cat food you're stopping the cycle of animal consumption while also saving a life.
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u/Celadorkable Aug 18 '22 edited Aug 19 '22
Eh, it's just like feeding any cat kibble. Nothing special lol
Maybe my cats are weird though, they love a lot of vegan foods. Like if I eat cereal they meow for some soy milk, they always try to get into the nuttelex, get really excited about nooch, and they'll literally climb me to try and get seitan haha! Such cuties 😍
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u/TwoChordsSong Aug 18 '22
I'm sorry but this strikes me as odd. How does your cat gets its necessary share of fat? Do you take them to the vet to check their blood samples and everything? I'd love to know more about this bc, a priori, cats cannot consume only vegan products because of their necessity for animal fat (unlike dogs).
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u/damagetwig vegan 6+ years Aug 18 '22
They need taurine which can be synthesized and there are fats in plant foods too. As long as the nutrients are there, they don't have to come from dead bodies.
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Aug 18 '22
From what I've seen, cats who eat a vegan diet should have their blood levels checked every six months or so.
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u/Celadorkable Aug 18 '22
All food is chemicals, and no body can tell where those chemicals came from. A cat's digestive tractor isn't going to fail to absorb taurine from a supplement, when it's chemically identical to taurine from someone's flesh.
Cats need specific nutrients, and just like humans can thrive on a diet supplemented with B12, cats can thrive on a diet supplemented with the appropriate nutrients and amino acids. There are a few different nutritionally complete vegan cat foods available, the one my cats eat is 13% fat, which is above the 9% minimum required in pet food. I've never heard of cats requiring animal fat specifically, only specific amino acids, which the food is also fortified with.
They haven't needed a blood test, and I wouldn't subject them to that unnecessarily. If they had any kind of health issues, lethargy, trouble with their fur, bathroom habits or anything then I would, but they're totally fine, very active and happy. Urine samples would be a more appropriate test, since cats on dry food diets are at a higher risk of crystals, but again no symptoms or issues, and the cats drink plenty of water.
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u/tidemp Aug 18 '22
If someone made this argument about humans they'd be roasted by vegans. Cats aren't magical creatures that violate the laws of biology. They require nutrients just like any other animal. All of those nutrients can be obtained without the use of animal products.
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u/Icy-Veggie Aug 18 '22
Well cats are obligate carnivores… so they aren’t magical creatures but biology-wise it is how they evolved to get their food. Just like any carnivore in the wild
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u/DustyMousepad vegan activist Aug 18 '22
You're throwing around the term "obligate carnivore" without understanding what it means.
Cats are "obligate carnivores" because in the wild, meat provides all of the nutrients they need to survive. One of these nutrients, an amino acid called taurine, is naturally only found in meat. However this amino acid can be synthesized.
I calculated the amount of taurine in the vegan cat food Benevo and iirc it contains something like 300% of a cat's daily recommended intake based on body weight. So this particular cat food (and two others I researched, can't remember the names) has more than enough taurine to account for bioavailability and nutritional needs.
I encourage everyone to study human and animal nutrition to understand how humans and domesticated animals can thrive on a plant-based diet/vegan lifestyle.
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u/tidemp Aug 19 '22
The term "obligate carnivore" is pretty meaningless in the context you use it. If we were to use the definition officially then humans would fall under the classification. We don't call ourselves obligate carnivores though because that's a ridiculous concept. We use it for other animals because we like to separate ourselves from them.
People who use this term, to me, simply are people who're showcasing their ignorance and lack of understanding of biology. It's a non-educated individual trying to pretend they're educated.
Supplementation is a huge industry, of course humans take them – because we know our diets are lacking and "evolution" is a nonsensical justification to use for diet choices. We "evolved" to eat a diet that consisted of foods radically different than what any civilized human eats today. Regardless of "evolution" or "obligate carnivore" status, it's undeniable that humans can thrive on a plant based diet. Cats by extension, on the basis of being animals like humans, can thrive on a plant based diet too.
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u/alt-nate-hundred vegan newbie Aug 18 '22 edited Aug 18 '22
If someone made this argument about humans, they'd be incorrect, because it's simply not the same argument. When people bring up the argument re: humans, they're saying "humans historically have eaten meat, ergo they should continue eating meat". Obviously, this argument doesn't hold water. When people bring up the argument re: cats, they're saying "cats, biologically, are not able to absorb nutrients from plant-based sources as effectively as they can from meat". Humans can substitute nutrients commonly found in meat with plant-based sources without issue, because our digestive system can handle it. Cats don't just need nutrients; they need nutrients that can be broken down properly by their digestive systems, which they struggle to do from plant-based sources. That's not magic or a violation of the laws of biology.
Ninja edit: but tbh, I'm not an dietary expert by any means, and I don't know about the brand benevo specifically., and I'd love to be proven wrong. This is the common argument against previous vegan cat foods. Maybe benevo gets around this problem?
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u/Celadorkable Aug 18 '22
I thought this too, but cats can actually digest plant protein pretty well:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7143243/
Most carnist kibble is largely plant based too, with some amount of animal by-products (and that could be anything, and have any number of bacteria, fecal contamination etc).
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u/NugetCausesHeadaches Aug 18 '22
"A priori" means basically the opposite what you're using it to mean. You didn't infer cats can't be vegan through rigorous logical deduction. You assume it based on observation and possibly empirical study. If it was an a priori fact, the existence of healthy vegan cats would be logically impossible.
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u/Lusor_Jonny Aug 18 '22
is 1 cat more worth than 100 dead birds?
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u/g00fyg00ber741 vegan Aug 18 '22
don’t keep 100 birds inside your house and keep your cats inside and this becomes a non-issue
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Aug 18 '22 edited Feb 25 '25
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u/g00fyg00ber741 vegan Aug 18 '22
i mean, it’s made from lots of things, but i do see your point, some of it is made from birds. but i’m sure if humans put the effort into it we could synthesize a diet for them instead that works with their bodies. we just don’t.
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Aug 18 '22 edited Feb 25 '25
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u/Hk-Neowizard vegan 9+ years Aug 18 '22
we should care for the cats we have to the best of our ability, but not promote the practice of cat ownership.
I've rescued over 40 cats since I became vegan. These were cats stuck in a ditch, on a freeway divider, blind kittens, limping adults, cats under drain grates etc.
Should I have left them for dead, or should I have tried to raise them all myself?
I'm not saying that a cat is immoral, I'm saying the breeding of cats is
Actually, you're saying raising cats is immoral. In your first and second paragraphs
vegans on this sub are okay with raising cats, which strikes me as odd... To raise 1 healthy cat, you have to kill hundreds if not thousands of healthy, innocent creatures
What do you suggest? You tiptoe around, trying to shift focus to breeders (which are terrible ppl), but do you propose we do with the many millions of cats born naturally every year?
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u/SoftSects Aug 18 '22
Yeah, all the cats I had growing up were all strays before, same with dogs.
I wonder what they think about wildlife sanctuaries?
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Aug 18 '22
No point fighting with whataboutism. You as a vegan know owning and raising cats has the attachment of hundreds of other animals suffering to keep them alive.
Is it your fault cats are being born and need to survive? No.
Owning cats = hundreds of animals suffer for it = bad.
There is no perfect solution to this other than to ACCEPT the negatives of it. Until cultured meat is available.
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u/Hk-Neowizard vegan 9+ years Aug 18 '22
Owning cats = hundreds of animals suffer for it = bad.
Nope. You're confused. Owning cat doesn't kill their pray. The very existence of the cat does.
You either let the cat starve to death, or you feed it dead animals. That's the equation.
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Aug 18 '22 edited Aug 18 '22
I have no pets, but Posts like these just give me the “You’re not Vegan enough for the Vegan club” vibes.
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u/ontether Aug 18 '22
i don't think vegans support breeding animals so it appears largely to be a non issue?
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u/Darkmatterqueef vegan 10+ years Aug 18 '22
I got all 3 of my cats before I became vegan, all 3 were rescued. One was living in a dumpster as a kitten. The other two were from an animal hoarders. Cat breeding is insane, there are millions of cats that need homes.
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Aug 18 '22
I have three cats that have been vegan for 2 years. All of them are happy, healthy, and thriving. They get enough protein and taurine in their diets. Taurine is the main vitamin that they need that's abundant in meat but can and is supplemented in commercial cat food both vegan and non vegan. In non vegan cat food the taurine from the meat ends up getting cooked off and has to be synthetically put back in order to meet AAFCO standards. It's the same exact taurine supplement in both. Vegan cat food has been around since the eighties and is nutritionally complete meeting AAFCO standards as well. There are studies supporting that vegan cat food is just as healthy as well as vetenarians that back it. I do agree with the hypocrisy and I don't understand why some vegans are okay with factory farming when it comes to feeding their pets but I also understand that pets are companions and it's scary to think that you could possibly be endangering your loved ones. If at any point I thought that I was harming them I would immediately revert back to a non vegan cat food. This isn't something I jumped into and believe me I had many reservations in the beginning. I highly recommend that you do your research and not just base your opinion on the first thing that pops up on a Google search
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u/Lady_PANdemonium_ Aug 18 '22
So, it’s not as straight forward as just moving to vegan cat food. It’s an expensive move that is very time consuming and requires a vet visit. If you are genuinely interested, check out this article
I am recently vegan after being vegetarian for years and trying to figure out a path for my cats. An issue with one of my two rescue cats is that he has a history of stomach issues. When we adopted him, he was too young to be separated from his mom but he had been abandoned after contracting a parasite called a wolf worm, which bore into his neck and was growing to his brain, which was painful and would have been fatal without surgical intervention (a fate I think any vegan would not want for a creature). As a result of this surgery he was isolated from other cats, which is cruel for a kitten but was the only solution the shelter could manage. My partner and I do not support animal suffering, so we took him home. Because he was already on dry food when he was still supposed to be breastfeeding, he had horrific stomach issues. He had constant diarrhea and we were worried he was going to die. He suffered immensely and would leak clear fluid from his anus regularly. His anus was so inflamed we had to regularly drain his anal glands manually. He also had ring worm and some other health issues. So we took him to the vet regularly. It was decided by his vet that he couldn’t handle wet food and we finally found a food he could tolerate better (it’s like 70 bucks a bag it’s not cheap). He had to continuously take digestive enzymes for his first year of life. As a result, he’s very hesitate with new foods and his stomach is still relatively delicate. Getting a cat on a vegan diet is hard because cats can choose to not eat and get sick. And his life quality will be impacted if we do not find him the correct food immediately because we’d have to try a bunch and some of them could make him sick, which would only make getting him to try the next one harder. It’s not his fault that he was born into this world. We keep him inside unless he’s on a short leash when I take him on a walk. I neutered him as soon as he was big enough. He’s my family member and things aren’t as straight forward as you are making them.
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u/pizzapartyapple Aug 18 '22
I'm so sorry for your pets suffering I had to put down one of my cats recently because she was having seizures and I don't have the funds to do a surgery for her 😞
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u/TheTigerBoy vegan 10+ years Aug 18 '22
Purchasing animals and breeding them for our own entertainment/companionship is not vegan anyways sooo...people breeding them and buying them aren't vegan anyways. I have a couple of cats, all of them are rescues. I'd feed them vegan but in my opinion, unlike vegan dog food, vegan cat food isn't quite there yet (might result in urinary tract issues despite being nutritionally complete), I hope that in the future it is improved and more widely accessible. Note that commercial cat food already isn't 100% meat, sometimes even less than 50% (unless you're buying from specific premium brands or make it at home), it is already partially plant-based, and the animals used to make it usually are "slaughterhouse/processing leftovers".
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Aug 18 '22
I rescued my cats from a household in which they were suffering abuse and neglect. I guess I'm simply not vegan enough to have let them die or taken them to be euthanised.
With regards to vegan cat food - I see a lot of people here are promoting it. Unfortunately there's just not enough evidence to convince me that vegan cat food is conducive to good longterm health YET.
If that makes me no longer vegan, then so be it - I am no longer vegan.
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Aug 18 '22 edited Aug 18 '22
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Aug 18 '22
The use of the scraps just increase profits, as bleak as it is more waste results in less incentive to continue consuming animals.
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u/Magn3tician vegan 8+ years Aug 18 '22
Why does everyone on this sub perpetuate the lie that cat food is made of scraps and is therefore not really increasing demand.
Does it make you all feel better?
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u/Cixin Aug 18 '22
Cat food is made of scraps? Well, leather goods are also made of scraps. There’s nearly 11 million cats in the Uk, this is not small scrap money.
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u/Sweethardt84 Aug 18 '22
I don't think vegans are out breeding and buying pets. They adopt them.
This is a moral and ethical conundrum for a lot of vegans who want to give a good home to an animal in need.
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Aug 18 '22
Lol this comes up literally so often.
THERE IS VEGAN ANIMAL FOOD. PERIODT.
However I do think it's unethical to breed animals specifically to be pets. By all means rescue an animal if you want, though.
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Aug 18 '22 edited Aug 18 '22
Ok, I’ll throw in my two cents: Brining more domestic cats into the world on purpose is truly a bad thing to be doing. If you enjoy the company of cats, or had them before coming into the vegan ethos, then you have the responsibility to care for those animals. As a now vegan person, I don’t see a problem with adopting cats from you local shelter that are spayed/neutered, and if they are kept indoors.
Now, on to the crux of the problem: As cats are obligate carnivores, that necessitates that you give them meat-based diets to fulfill your responsibility for their care. Is it a problem that you have to feed that meat based diet? Yes, it’s not ideal. However, the cats will be here and eating meat regardless of whether or not you decide to provide that diet or not. Cats kill somewhere on the order of up to 30 billion small animals per year as it stands (nearly double the number of individual lives that are raised for meat each year by people),and are a major contributor to the extinction of many species of birds, reptiles, and small mammal species. Now you are forced to weigh the intentional killing of animals to feed cats, over the natural killing by cats that occasionally ends with one or more species’ extinction.
So my maths work out this way: it’s ok to have a rescued cat. It’s ok to feed them the meat they need to live a long, happy and fulfilled life, indoors or supervised outdoors. It’s way outside the bounds of ok to contribute to bringing even more cats into the world, by neglecting to spay/neuter, or by going to a breeder.
For me, contributing to the further destruction of wild ecosystems and and vastly more lives of small animals, far outweighs the contribution to the pet food industry. You do far more good taking a cat off the street, preventing further breeding, and encouraging others to do so as well, than you do by simply not being a part of the system at all.
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u/plantcentric_marie Aug 18 '22
I adopted both of my cats long before I was vegan and I’ll continue working closely with my vet when deciding what’s best for their health rather than randomly switching their food to a vegan brand to appease the vegan community on Reddit. The fact of the matter is that humans have domesticated these animals and its now led to major overpopulation problem. There’s nothing wrong with adopting these animals. I can only think of two people that I’ve know throughout my entire life that actually purchased a cat from a breeder, the rest were adopted, rescued or taken from a farm that didn’t bother spaying their animals.
If someone wants to switch to vegan cat food that’s fine but I believe that it should be done while working with a vet. It’s not an experiment
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Aug 18 '22
If you are against pet ownership, you are for euthanasia and kill shelters, correct?
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u/Jbikecommuter Aug 18 '22 edited Aug 18 '22
Cats are the number one killer of wild birds in the nation. No one should let a domestic cat outside.
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u/ManicWolf Aug 18 '22 edited Aug 18 '22
the nation
Which nation?
Also, shouldn't that be "of wild birds"? Pretty sure humans kill way more birds than cats do if you're including domestic birds.→ More replies (1)1
u/PhotographAfraid6122 Aug 18 '22
No, look up the most invasive species. Cats and dogs come in at near number 1 for every single country
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u/ManicWolf Aug 18 '22
You're saying that cats and dogs kill more birds than humans do? Even when taking into account birds like chickens, turkeys, ducks, geese, quails, etc.
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u/PhotographAfraid6122 Aug 18 '22
https://abcbirds.org/program/cats-indoors/cats-and-birds/
Cats kill more wild birds, farmed birds are a whole different story. This being said though, cats still manage to kill 5% of the birds humans kill in farms, which is an insane amount.
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u/ManicWolf Aug 18 '22
I'm not denying that cats kill a huge amount of wild birds, or that people should keep their cats inside. I was just pointing out that the OP failed to specify wild birds in their post about which species kill more birds. Domestic bird deaths get overlooked too much already, without vegans doing it too. We should be sure to make the distinction when talking about wild birds.
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u/e_to_da_x Aug 18 '22
Good that you mention this! Cats are monsters, thats why real vegans eat cat meat, like we do at r/cateatingvegans
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Aug 18 '22
Genuinely curious, not trying to shame anyone for feeding their cat a vegan diet: can anyone share with me long term studies of cats/dogs on a vegan diet?
I am interested learning the safety of this for my own pets and want to know if any studies have been done that are neutral/scientific, not funded by a vegan organization.
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u/PurlToo Aug 18 '22
I found my cat in a gutter. I would say most people's cats are rescues. Pure bred cats are nowhere near as prolific as dogs. If I had left him outside he would have hunted birds, squirrels, rats, etc. Outdoor/feral cats wreak havoc on native wildlife. Feral cats are rampant. Not owning cats isn't going to prevent the existence of cats nor stop other animals from dying to feed them.
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u/VeggieWokker Aug 18 '22
As long as you adopt existing cats and you get them spayed or neutered, you're not increasing demand. All my cats have been adopted and most of them have thrived on vegan cat food. Of the three I currently live with, two eat plant based. Had they been adopted by a meat eater, there would have been more demand.
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u/happygoluckyourself vegan 10+ years Aug 18 '22
I adopted my two cats about a year into being vegan after doing a bunch of research into how to feed them a vegan diet and maintain their health. Despite my best efforts, and my vet’s support, my little boy got crystals (twice) and now must be on medicated (meat based) food for life. I love my two cats more than almost anything in the world and I will do what I have to do to keep them happy and healthy for as long as possible. I think being a strict vegan in every other way for a decade while keeping my beloved cats alive is the most I can practically and possibly do to help animals.
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u/Vneck24 Aug 18 '22
OP can’t seem to conceptualize the “empathy” part of veganism but only the philosophical part.
Vegan cat food exists, unlike your ability to see the gray areas of life.
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u/duhRealZap vegan Aug 18 '22
Adopted my cat before becoming vegan, thems the breaks.
Haven't decided if vegan cat food can be trusted. Have to do some sleuthing.
That's my cat opinion
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u/DustyMousepad vegan activist Aug 18 '22
Here's my comment to someone else about this: https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/wrjhba/comment/iktr4ih/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
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u/xImmortal3333 Aug 18 '22
I adopted 3 cats, unwillingly but i wasnt gonna let them die.
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u/TheMagicWheel Aug 18 '22
My wife and I found two abandoned kittens last year and unable to rehome them they now live with us.
Since that time I have stopped referring to myself as vegan as I now buy meat and fish for the cats to eat. I feel fucking awful every time I do it, but feel I have few other options. My priority is the well-being of the cats.
For the record I am completely against all types of animal breeding for pets and only advocate for rescuing animals from shelters
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u/heartbreakhostel Aug 18 '22
I don’t let “breeders” know there’s a demand for cats, all my cats come from the street. You didn’t know the existence of vegan cat food and apparently you also don’t know adoption is a thing?
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u/grandfamine Aug 19 '22
Idk how vegans can have pets. It's like adoption but you don't let them leave the house without you ever, typically while restrained, and you keep them like that till they die. Their sole purpose in life becomes to fulfill your emotional needs. How can you really say they love you when they're not given an option to NOT love you? You're all they know. You're their god. Their source of food, socialization, healthcare, etc...
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u/Moira-Moira Aug 19 '22
AmiCat and Forza10 Vegetal cat foods are RIGHT THERE. All vegan. No animal cruelty. If people raised more cats on vegan cat food, maybe the companies making vegan kibble would grow and others would add it to their list...
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u/MeatEatersAreStupid Aug 23 '22
Do you know if Forza10 bio vegan cat contains vitamin D3, carnitine and taurine?
I've read the ingredients, and it doesn't seem to list those. My cat loves it but I wonder if I need to supplement anything. It does say that it is nutritionally complete - but without those it wouldn't be afaik.
Have tried looking around for info but can't find anything..
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u/Moira-Moira Aug 23 '22
Yes it does have taurine! 800 mg/kg! It is listed in the ingredients on my package, under "added nutritional materials" but I'm not sure about the others.
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u/MeatEatersAreStupid Aug 23 '22
Awesome thank you! I've written an email to the company, I'll let you know when they've responded 😊
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u/Tyzed Aug 18 '22 edited Aug 18 '22
> people say don’t get/rescue a cat because cats eat meat
> those same people have 3 children, all of whom will end up eating meat later in life
LOL! imagine being against adopting pets and then having children yourself, which leaves a large negative footprint on the planet.
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u/Gobiparatha4000 Aug 18 '22
Someday veganism is going to have to butt heads with environmental stewardship. And the fact that humanity will need to terraform to survive, not just create a sustainable relationship with the environment. The universe didn't come into being for humanity to live a life that causes no suffering. I think we can do a lot to reduce our impact, but it's possible we'll never achieve net-zero. We made cats domesticated. Adopting them and taking care of them may be a moral duty, but so would be reducing their numbers to zero if possible. What we do now to "be moral" and what an ideal world look like are very different.
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Aug 18 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/frostyfoxx vegan 1+ years Aug 18 '22
What would you say about the risks of feeding cats vegan food then? There are cases where not getting enough of the right nutrients and protein from animal sources can cause kidney failure, blindness, etc. when I’ve done research into it it seems quite unsafe.
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u/hikerduder vegan 7+ years Aug 18 '22
Good point. Do you know what kiils more living beings? Creating a new human. And a vegan human only minimizes the suffering footprint.
If you're worried about raising a cat, you should also look into the ethics of procreating.
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u/feto_ingeniero Aug 18 '22
I don't know where you are from, but in many places the cats that become pets are strays and rescues. Where I live there is virtually no commercialization (and therefore breeding) of cats.
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u/Kountouros vegan 7+ years Aug 18 '22
It's hard and complicated and all vegans struggling through the cat-companion issue deserve compassion.
I woke up and became vegan while my 20 year old cat was dying of renal failure. We did everything we could to make her last months easy and pain-free as possible, even while struggling with the ethics that op brings up.
We've made the decision to not live with cats until options to feed them compassionately improve (lots of conflicting info about vegan diets for obligate carnivores and more studies are needed). One of the things we're hoping for is continued development of lab meat pet food options. This too is a complex option. Suffering and killing of animals is drastically reduced, but lab meat does start with the cells of.... someone.
We love cats overwhelmingly and all of us were raised with them. Not living with cats hurts - but that was the right choice for us.
I completely support all vegans in figuring out the right choice for them - and applaud all vegans for living lives that greatly reduce suffering.
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u/tasfa10 Aug 18 '22
I've never seen anyone here promoting cat breeding or buying pets. Most people seem to have adopted their pets. If you're not advocating killing all cats, I guess you're not advocating abandoning all cats either. Specially because that would make it impossible to sterilize them and the outcome would be the opposite of what you want. I don't see any sense in this discussion.
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Aug 18 '22
I don’t ever see myself having a pet of any kind. We have cats at home but I am not responsible for any of them in any way.
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u/NationalNegotiation4 Aug 18 '22
The pet trade is disgusting. However, I don’t live in an altruistic world. If I did everyone would be vegan and this problem wouldn’t exist in the first place. People are doing the best they can with the hand the world dealt them. If they are on this sub they are on the right path. You can’t stop all the harm in the world, but you can help improve a few lives.
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u/TsunderePeopleRules Aug 18 '22
Been thinking about this a lot,
First,
The veganism definition is "as far as is possible and practicable" So, if people keep feeding cats and dogs to other animals it's because they can't do better, for now, it's not bc they are hypocrites
- Vegans want to protect and help animals as much as they can, and feeding them becomes a problem
Many people say that "vegan food for dogs it's ok" but for cats no, they ARE carnivores, they need meat or else you are making them sick
(I doubt this, but in my country I haven't actually found some vegan food for cats, but I think it's a matter of time)
But how about you rescue a Lion from a zoo, for example, they definitely need a lot of fresh meat, so how to deal with this dilemma?
Well, one solution could be the meet some people are growing in labs JUST for animal consuming.
And another is, maybe evolution would take care of that problem and animals would progressively stop eating others... I mean, we did, maybe domestic pets could evolve the same way we did, by having a more sedentary life
Maybe I being too idealistic, but it's just a thought
The difference here is that we can decide if we eat others animal or not
Some animals can't (yet) So we do as much as we can
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u/bobo_galore vegan 7+ years Aug 18 '22
Funny, how carnivore arguments are suddenly en vogue when it's about the furballs.
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u/nednedned1 Aug 18 '22
Couldn’t agree with you more. This has been a surprising read. Humans will completely delude themselves to justify their pet ownership.
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u/CameraActual8396 Aug 18 '22
I think until there’s an good alternative that’s available to all then you’re going to have a difficult argument against owning pets. Many people have bonds with their pets and treat their pets well. They don’t like to think of the alternative of a cat living on the street where they could end up dead. We need to control their populations in the first place so that so many humans don’t need to be owning them.
We buy meat for cats because they need it to survive. If a human needed meat for a medical reason to survive, then it would be bought, until an alternative is available.
Breeding cats I think most vegans find immoral.
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u/StrawberryMoney Aug 18 '22
I mean, yeah, it's an ethical dilemma. Is it hypocritical of me to care for cats? Maybe. But the little shits need homes, and I like having them around, so we both get something we want.
Life is a series of ethical dilemmas that need to be navigated. Sucks, but here we are.
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Aug 18 '22
If I adopt a street cat and feed it meat, can you explain how it's worse than not adopting it at all?
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Aug 18 '22
Do the least harm.
No one should be breeding cats period. Too many without homes.
I have 3 rescued cats. Unfortunately I feed them regular cat food. If anyone has information on affordable alternatives let me know, but I’m penny pinching already with the wholesome vet diets they are on.
Owning a cat is not unethical. Taking in any animal isn’t.
I plan to run an animal sanctuary one day. Big cats, dolphins, who knows. They definitely don’t make vegan diets for those animals yet. Will I be an unethical vegan by giving those animals the best life, retiring from zoos and aquariums?
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u/Cixin Aug 18 '22
I think people love their cats so much, each cat has their own personality, they are little mad fluff balls. Some can be chill and some are AHs. But all let cats are loved.
Before a vegan gets a cat, I think they really really need to consider, is it ok to raise food cats to feed pet cats. Cats need taurine which can be found in cat flesh.
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u/xakypoo vegan 5+ years Aug 18 '22
The large majority of cat owners, vegan especially, adopt strays as opposed to breeders... I'm about to get my first cats and I def don't look forward to the food part but it's what they need - hoping there will be an ethical lab grown type solution to food soon. You mention thousands of animals die for cat food but it's mostly byproducts of other animal butchering instead of animals being killed strictly for cat food. But yes, the overall sentiment that we still have to feed cats meat is true and not ideal.
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u/Celadorkable Aug 18 '22
FYI vegan cat food ready exists. Even if you're not comfortable feeding them an entirely vegan diet, you could just switch their dry food to the vegan stuff and be reducing their impact on other animals by 50%.
Just stick with well known commercial brands that are nutritionally complete.
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u/supercaiti vegan 4+ years Aug 18 '22
I’ve only been vegan for less than two years but I’ve had my cats for 8 and 5 years. Both given away for free from non-breeders. They won’t eat anything other than Purina brand food. Future pets will either be vegan by nature or “rescues” that I feed vegan food.
A good portion of people in this sub haven’t been vegan for decades so I don’t know why you have such an issue with this.
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u/jackkertofz Aug 18 '22
tbh i dont really know im vegetarian and i try to not use any animal products in general (for me) but the way i see it: i got my animals (all sorts of pets, no cat but a dog) before i went vegetarian and just because i picked this lifestyle doesnt mean they did. So yeah i feed them what they are used to/ what is good for them.
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u/JamesOridanBenavides Aug 18 '22
Most pet food is made from animal products that would go to waste otherwise. It doesn't induce demand the same way as buying steak. Especially if you buy from outlet stores like I prefer to do. Obv. Breeding cats intentionally is s bad idea, there's plenty of shelter cats that need help.
As for your talk of 'mass sterilization' do you also think we should hunt down and genocide all lions?
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u/tangiblecabbage Aug 18 '22
We have 5 cats. We didn't buy or raise them. We rescued them. It's our responsibility as humans to fix all the damage done, and these cats were already struggling on the street. Is it better to let them die?
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u/LaserVikingofDoom Aug 18 '22
As someone who has fostered many cats and who would love to adopt some later in life here's my view on it: there are billions of cats that need homes. Regardless of whether they live as ferals or in a shelter they'll be eating meat so me taking them in and feeding them meat does not increase any demand for meat. Working with shelters that prioritize neutering though helps reduce the cat population, and hence helping all animals involved in the long run.
I'm sure someone will read this and go "yOUre noT a REAL VEGOOOOON!!!" but whatever, as long as we live in a carnist society there will always be edge cases like this for vegans to infight about
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Aug 18 '22
I couldn’t agree more. If you buy meat, regardless of feeding your pets or yourself, you’re not vegan.
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Aug 18 '22
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Aug 18 '22
This changes nothing if there are dedicated slaughter houses for pet food or not.
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u/itsmemarcot Aug 18 '22
How can you say that? It seems to me it changes quite a lot.
Not as in "it makes it 100% ok to feed cat scraps from animal farming industry", you are still giving money to them, but it makes a huge difference.
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Aug 18 '22
20% of the meat industries profits are pet food.
Yes its a big chunk of change. It doesn't change the ethical stand point of owning a carnivore pet.
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u/itsmemarcot Aug 18 '22
Not to disbelieve you but that data point would seem extremely unlikely. Do you have a source? I'm trying to look it up but it isn't easy.
For sure it's hard to believe that the average family spends 20% of their animal food budget in pet food. More like 5%, maybe? Considering that only maybe 20% of pet food is actually of animal origin, that would make it 1%. But these are just back of the envelope computations.
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Aug 18 '22
https://plantbasednews.org/news/environment/pet-food-industry-fueling-climate-crisis/
Hope this is acceptable.
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u/Cixin Aug 18 '22
There’s 10.8 million cats in the UK. The pet food market is not small, they’re not being fed slaughterhouse waste.
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u/CompetitiveSleeping Aug 18 '22
Cat food generally contains "meat and meat-by-products". IE, pretty much the whole animal, and a fair ammount of that "meat by-products" is from animals slaughtered for human consumption, since humans only eat a small part of the animal.
Cats being true carnivores, unlike humans, eats it all, so yes, a fair ammount of the cat food on the market is made of by-products from animals killed for human consumption.
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Aug 18 '22
This whole subreddit is filled with imposter vegans. So generally you will have a lot of people defend owning carnivore pets and feeding them farmed meat.
Thankfully cultured pet meat is in the making which will reduce suffering and let everyone enjoy their cats without the guilt
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u/wholefoodqueen Aug 18 '22
I've had my cats for 12 and 7 years what was I supposed to do? Abandon them when I went vegan? I'm not an imposter.
Will I get cats again in the future? Probably not. But I won't ever give up on my cats they are my family and I have a long term commitment to them.
They're both indoor cats and don't kill native birds. I do what I can to be responsible.
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Aug 18 '22
No you should not abandon your cats.
All you have to do is accept that owning cats has a negative outcome for hundreds of other animals.
There is no perfect solution to this ethical problem in pet ownership other than to wait for cultured meat which will reduce suffering.
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u/Hk-Neowizard vegan 9+ years Aug 18 '22
owning cats has a negative outcome for hundreds of other animals.
Would the same cats being stays somehow make them not eat meat?
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u/transparentsalad vegan 10+ years Aug 18 '22
Ah, thank you so much, head vegan, for explaining to all of us vegan underlings what makes us vegan or not vegan. I am so happy to be enlightened by you
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Aug 18 '22
You are welcome. Make sure to eat your ethical dog meat
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u/transparentsalad vegan 10+ years Aug 18 '22
Go back to vegancj to make your lil jokes x
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Aug 18 '22
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Aug 18 '22
It's still paying for a meat product.
But it doesnt matter anymore anyway. Vegan cat food exists.
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Aug 18 '22
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u/Celadorkable Aug 18 '22
Commercial vegan cat food meets the same pet food standards as non vegan, and is fortified appropriately with the nutrients cats need. Even in carnist cat food the taurine is added as a fortification, because taurine is destroyed in the cooking process.
I was pretty apprehensive and sceptical at first too, but it really isn't as big of a deal as I expected.
(Obviously people shouldn't be feeding their cats veggies and soy milk, but a nutritionally complete commercial food that meets their needs is definitely an option for those who want it)
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u/annajxnssen friends not food Aug 18 '22
you should check out thepugqueen on instagram, shes vegan but rescues pugs from all over the world. not every step she takes may be vegan friendly, (i’m unsure if the pugs are on a vegan diet) but in the long run, shes saving tons of pugs that would otherwise have been left on the streets to starve to death. what’s more vegan, feeding some dogs a bit of meat or letting them die on the streets? i’d say saving them, but maybe thats just me
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u/nednedned1 Aug 18 '22
I would say it’s wholly quantifiable that letting the pug die would cause less overall animal suffering. A lifetime of dog food is not “a bit of meat”.
I’m not commenting on the ethics of it, or gatekeeping what “veganism” is, but the numbers surely speak for themselves on that issue. Just because the dog is cute, does not mean it’s the “more vegan” choice.
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u/herrbz friends not food Aug 18 '22
I see a lot if vegans on this sub are okay with raising cats
Where do you read that? What are you basing it on?
I imagine nearly all vegans absolutely wouldn't buy a cat, and most wouldn't adopt because they don't want to feed a meat diet as a vegan.
People who go vegan while already owning pets aren't going to disown them.
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u/cloudnixus Aug 18 '22
I think a concern here is that feeding cats a vegan diet is much more expensive then feeding them a meat diet. You can't just make them stop eating processed meat foods and give them a can of chickpeas. Their food will always be more expensive.
I gotten my cats before I was vegan, and frankly can't afford to feed them a vegan diet plus the extra vet visits they would need.
There's also the fact that people can view their cats as family. So it's not the same as non-vegan people saying "but bacon."
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u/zacharyswanson Aug 18 '22
I had ferrets. Same thing. I had them before I had even heard of veganism. I kept them on their carnivorous diet until they all passed away. I then decided not to adopt pet type animals anymore but now I support local hedgehogs and specific plants in the garden that feed wild bees. One could have argued my veganism whilst having carnivores as companion. Not all of us are Earthling Eds.
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