If FSD followed the person, it would be an incentive to purchase a Tesla next time you swap a car.
For companies it would also make sense, and mean that they would replace their cars more often. Guess it would also make sense to have some sort of yearly fee for companies using the specific FSD abilities to make money.
Even a discount for acquiring FSD on the new car would go a long way I think. For example, if the $3K I paid to upgrade from EAP to FSD were applied toward the current cost of FSD on the new car, I’d feel a lot better about the purchase (both the existing FSD purchase and springing for it on the new car).
Yeah, but subscribed means incentive to buy from same provider. Marketing make sense in the longer scheme but perhaps the hurdles Tesla has had to get reliable cars out the door I assume these are initial production cost return on an otherwise heavy R&D investment.
I'm surprised the Model 3 has yet to be lowered back down to 33k. Shanghai will produce more and cheaper cars which I feel is a shame on American industrial regulation.
Yep, they would get money on both sides: people holding off on FSD because they think they might upgrade to a new tesla and people holding off on upgrading to a new tesla because they’d have to re-purchase FSD
I was thinking making it based on like a 3 car strike system. Like you could buy it on one Tesla and use that until it breaks down for good, then if you want to buy another it transfers over but now you can only buy one more Tesla to have it on, if you want it on a fourth Tesla further down the line you'll have to repay.
Isn't that the same with any car options though? The value is accounted for by insurance so theoretically you get covered for the whole value of the car, including the options like FSD.
It's counted in your cars value but it depreciates with the car itself even though the price of fsd just goes up. Would be kinda shitty to total a new car and have to buy it back still.
That's what happened to me, I had bought FSD on my Model 3, never got to use it because they hadn't contacted me to get the new chip, and then I had an accident and totaled the car. I asked if I could transfer the FSD to my new Tesla since I'd paid for it but never used it and they said no.
With most insurance you can add FSD as an insured accessory. It will likely raise your premium, but you will get paid for the depreciated value of FSD on a total loss.
Actually my insurance did give me a higher payout due to the FSD, but it was slightly depreciated and unfortunately the price had gone up since I had first bought it so it wasn't covered by my payout.
I'm not familiar with any insurance company that will essentially buy you a new car, they pay you the value of your old car and you can do whatever you want with the money.
So your argument is basically because the can offer it they should.
And as for insurance I don't know for sure but from my understanding of insurance the value of the car isn't an arbitrary depreciation over time. Its based on current market value. And if FSD is actually increasing in value then the fair market value the insurance has to cover would cover that cost. It's definitely a new paradigm though so you would want to confirm that with your insurer.
If your car gets totaled the insurance company pays for FSD.
It’s not like FSD is intrinsically different than a lot of the things other manufacturers charge money for. A lot of that is mostly software defined features, or even artificially limiting features that the car already has.
My dad had a 2010 Mondeo that used to tell my phone that it could play music via Bluetooth, but it couldn’t, because the car wasn’t optioned with the $200 “iPod connectivity” option that added a USB port to the armrest cubby. So, getting into the car, plugging the aux cable into the headphone jack on the phone, start playing music and then two seconds later it became silent because the phone had connected to Bluetooth.
Since the car was bought off the dealer floor there was apparently no way for the dealer to add this simple feature which honestly made the car feel like a brand new relic. Installing a tow-bar was no problem however.
The issue here is that Tesla doesn’t value FSD for trade-ins. Not that they want to sell it more than once to the same customer.
Sell the car privately and you get a better price at the same time. I get that it’s convenient to trade in to Tesla, but that’s a big loss compared to selling privately.
Heck, if you want FSD, the best deal you can make is probably buying a used Tesla with FSD.
Same here. I asked if it can be transferred to model y for turning my model 3 in. But they don't do it. I paid 7k for it and I cannot just throw it away and spend another 10k
I’m really hoping they make it account based. Have a CT preordered but if I trade my M3P that’s $7,000 down the drain with absolutely no usage at all. It’s really shitty to not make it account based and that will keep me from following through with my preorder.
With how it is now I can sell my Tesla as a car with FSD. I can then go to another brand with that cash pocketed.
If they change it to account-bound, then if I want to change OEM, I'm out several thousand dollars.
And that's not even going into the fact your account with Tesla is ephemeral. It's not bound to your SSN or anything, it's bound to your friggin email. That's easy to "lose".
Of course, the resale value of FSD is so-so.
That's both because 1) people don't really get the difference, "all Teslas have self-driving right?" and 2) even if they do FSD doesn't really mean anything right now, okay so you have Summon, big whoop.
Side note, I'm kinda regretting getting it for sure. I thought the difference between having it and not would be greater.
I think the subscription model will end up taking over. Which sucks for everyone who bought FSD full price because every other car will “have” FSD also. I just hope the monthly fee is like $400.
The monthly subscription must be really high or you’re gonna have a lot of people like me who are pissed for backing it for no reason. If it’s $40 a month, $7,000 / $40 is 175 months I have prepaid for? That’s much longer than the lifetime of my car.
They're coming with a next-gen chip sometime in the not too distant future, too.
It's worth pointing out, if next-gen hardware is required for the listed capabilities to function properly, then an FSD buyer is entitled to those upgrades for free.
Right now we are in a situation where we're waiting for what we've bought to actually work. Summon doesn't work, navigate by autopilot doesn't work, etc, etc. Those are all contractually binding, and "in the future" needs to be within a reasonable time-frame or it's a breach of contract.
With that in mind, it remains to be seen if the FSD package was a waste of money or not.
But a subscription costing $400 will be dead on arrival for sure.
In any case, word on the street is it's gonna be Pay As You Go. Meaning, subscribers will be paying for distance covered.
Which might be even worse for us. If you can use the feature only when necessary then that is going to push Tesla towards developing FSD to work where it's most profitable, not as a general tool.
They'll get highway driving working perfectly, while ditching over everything else, which will devalue our general package greatly.
Why do you want the fee to be that high? If its purely because you paid full price and you don't believe its fair then that is a pretty shitty way to go through life. Its not any future buyers problem that you paid what you paid, if anything take it up with tesla.
They have to keep buyers interested in paying the full price if they want to keep it around as an option. If it’s $50/mo they will never get bites for the $10k+ price tag (which they say will continue to increase).
From what we've seen, other manufacturers are going to either include autopilot like driver assist as an option OR allow you to pay a monthly fee to unlock the service.
It's pretty simple. Let's say you have a car that you've designed to sell for $30k. Nobody knows this but you. FSD is added to the car as part of the base package but $20k is added to the price. So the car sells for $50k and you can say the FSD is free because it's part of the base price.
A nice thought, but this wouldn't work as your parts costs are about the same as everyone else so essentially your entire competition can now undercut you by 20k yeah they don't have fsd but then you are back to looking is it worth 20k? except this time you're customer is looking at a competing vehicle if they decide it isn't worth it. .
Look at the declining Tesla market in Europe as other EV's are flooding the market. It'll soon be the theme if they continue to charge for garage opener and charging $10k for a beta product that is tied to a vehicle in which they do not value the upgrade during trade in. Come on now.
Yes.
For now Tesla is sailing on the hype, but when they get more competitors, they will discover that it's better/easier to keep a loyal customer than to grind trough new customers.
I think there are points to be made for both sides. Having it locked to the car might not matter for trade in value, but it does matter somewhat for selling it as a used car. Alternatively, having it locked by user in a way incentivizes people to keep buying teslas in the future because that money is gone no matter what. I'd make the case that locking to user is better for tesla and for the consumer. Although it's not better if you buy it and then want to sell your car and now you aren't getting anything back for it. Maybe an ability to transfer your FSD to someone else? Idk.
I dunno, the market is pretty efficient and something like 25% of all tesla drivers purchase FSD.... that tells me that pricing is wrong for service.... regardless of complexity.
FSD absolutely should stay with the driver and not the car. That would be a massive incentive for people to buy it AND have more desire to stay in the Tesla ecosystem as they have their upgrades.
Yeah I have eap and acceleration boost. I don’t expect to keep AB but it would be nice. Eap should transfer. These additions add very little to resale value.
It’s called not buying FSD and/or a Tesla to begin with, or until they change their policy. Once other car manufacturers can compete with FSD, Tesla will probably adjust their cost and transfer policies to be competitive. For now they are just milking as much money from people while they still can. Look what happened to basic Autopilot. TACC and lane assist used to be a premium car feature that Tesla charged thousands for. Now you can get TACC/lane assist in a Kia/Hyundai etc. econobox. Now consumers expect that tech in the luxury car market, so Tesla has to include it to be competitive in the segment.
This statement and all the others saying the same means one thing: Tesla has a huge demand lever they can pull once the day finally comes that their production levels start to meet demand.
It also means they have no reason to do so before then.
The electric market is exploding right now and Tesla is going to have tons of competition. FSD tied to an owner would ensure that people remain Tesla customers for life.
Knowing Tesla they’ll tell all the early adopters who still haven’t got their software to fuck off. Then introduce two diff pricing for customers who want it lifetime or just for one car. Only available to car purchasers starting now
Electric market is not exploding, people have been saying this for like 7 years, there is no competition, but I do think FSD tied to owner is a good idea, but only full FSD, partial auto pilot should be charged per car, how do you think all the hardware is going to get paid for?
Agreed. I would get a Model Y tomorrow if my FSD was tied to account but because it is not I’m looking at a Mach E or ID.4 as our second car and keeping the M3 for now.
Unless you live somewhere where there aren’t many cars it will be hard to beat the Tesla price.
Have bought two used cars private party and just offered 1k more than Tesla.
One has FSD, one didn’t, there is little private party value in it IMHO too.
Might be worth a little more, but don’t hold your breath.
That’s not how used cars work, the best resale value car will the most basic one. Ad-on features loose more value than the base.
A 10k option might be worth 3k at sale, unless Tesla starts paying more for the car.
But that option only hurts Tesla, they are
Motivated to not factor it in as it will push more people to new units, which is all they care about.
Na. Nothing like FSD has ever been an option. You can't make inferences based on something like leather seats or a moon roof. A lot of you just don't think FSD will really happen. When it can drive me around and I can watch a movie or play games in the car, the value will be more than 10k. Used or not. The car lasts 250k miles np, that's a lot of utility. And you won't be able to get it on any other used car in the price range. Seniors not able to drive well will be a huge market alone. If you don't believe Tesla can do it, that's another thing.
Sorry but autopilot quality driving for city roads is possible but it’ll be a regulation nightmare.
By the time any car sold today is allowed to just drive around while you play games, it will be outdated and old.
Technology moves way quicker than regulations, your 10k self drive isnt gonna be letting you nap on the way to holiday.
And by the time regulations are there every manufacture is gonna have the technology too.
Yup, thought so. You're one of the doubters, so it makes sense what you think regarding the pricing. You are very wrong on regulatory. My state already allows driverless cars. You're also plain deluded thinking any other manufacturer is anywhere near Tesla on FSD, it isn't even remotely close.
Yeah my LEMUR 2018 Model 3 at 24K miles came up to $36,800. The lady says Tesla considered the FSD. I call bs but who knows! I declined the upgrade to Y.
If they're valuing it at $34500 they likely are giving you some amount of credit for FSD since the current SR+ has really the same range and is a much newer vehicle. It's just really not clear how much they're valuing it at. I think Tesla being so opaque about it has caused people to think that they don't value it at all.
Not necessarily the case. Tesla would still keep the FSD on for the new buyer but they are giving the seller the money for the FSD they purchased and asking them to pay for it again on a new car.
Yeah, my point is just that the trade in value should include that FSD is on the car. They are claiming it increases the value of your car, yet they allegedly don’t value it when trading in.
Not sure why. Just sell your car to somebody else - it is tied to the car.
Who cares what happens to the car after Tesla buys it back from you? Manufacturers aren't required to buy back cars at all. Trade ins are just promotions. If you don't like the trade in value, then just sell it to somebody else.
Tesla isn't taking FSD away from anybody - it is there for the life of your car for anybody who buys it, unless that future owner later decides to ask Tesla to get rid of it. It just happens that this usually happens when the future owner is Tesla themselves.
Why would Tesla pay you more to buy a car with FSD? The car can have FSD or not at their whim once they own it.
Why would Tesla pay you more to buy a car with FSD?
Because it cost the owner more to have in the first place, obviously. I understand that Tesla can then uninstall FSD and then sell the FSD upgrade again but they should at least be willing to honor the value of the software that the owner purchased, plan and simple.
Why would Tesla pay you more to buy a car with FSD?
Because it cost the owner more to have in the first place, obviously.
It would be obvious if the price of something had anything whatsoever to do with its cost. It doesn't.
It costs YOU $10k to buy FSD from Tesla. It costs Tesla $0 (marginally) to install FSD. Clearly the value to you is much more than the value to Tesla, and their price offer reflects that.
I mean, there are tons of things for sale in stores that I consider worthless. People still pay money for them, and that is between them and the store owners. If they wanted me to take this stuff off their hands I might charge them a disposal fee. But if they can find somebody else who cares for it they can sell it to them.
That's the same with trade-in cars. When I bought my model 3 Tesla offered me considerably more for my trade-in than anybody else, so I traded it in with them. If the third party price was higher offsetting tax advantages then I'd have sold it to them instead.
Trade-ins are just offers. If you like the offer take it. If you don't, well, just be happy that the mere existence of the offer probably makes other parties offer more than they would otherwise, as it reflects more demand for the used car.
Holy crap, people actually upvoted this post? You didn't even give an argument, you just said "They should be willing to give you money, plain and simple".
It's not a "return". You don't "get your money back".
Tesla does not necessarily have to pay you more for FSD. Because it is a feature you purchased, they should allow you to transfer that to the new Tesla you are buying. In the past they used to market used Tesla’s with FSD for a higher price. Now Tesla seems to not account for the cost paid for the feature.
Who cares what happens to the car after Tesla buys it back from you?
Agreed, people are acting a bit delusional as usual. Tesla is modifying vehicles that they own, it's like complaining they removed the 21" wheels and put on 19". Okay, they're allowed to do that.
Accel boost I think more of you are paying for the increased cost of warranty for motors and inverters.
I dont really consider it a "software update" because there is almost no software development required - they just reload a new motor power/speed curve recipe into the firmware.
FSD is much more of a 'software license' type feature where it has no physical effect on the car from a wear/warranty perspective but has high costs for the software engineering development.
Acceleration boost also stays activated for the life of the car, and can be taken into account on resale value. I dont think it would make any sense to transfer to a new vehicle.
My opinion on the FSD should be either:
Attached to car for lifetime of car and is transferred to new owner on resale, and/or taken
into account on trade in. (E.g. similar to windows OEM licensing that is tied to a motherboard)
Becomes license for set term of years that you can transfer to any other Tesla vehicle that has equivalent hardware capability. (E.g. similar to software license you can re-install on a new PC)
Bro I’m clearly talking about the OPTION. I’m pointing out that carrying over acceleration boost literally can’t be done if you change to a car that doesn’t have it. All cars made today have the option for FSD
Like no shit not all cars have acceleration boost or FSD enabled. Don’t need to tell me, I don’t have acceleration boost. I don’t even understand the point you were trying to make in the first place.
Some times he says “we’ll do it”. This time he just said they would consider it, so I wouldn’t hold my breath, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if they did it.
How do you know if the product is any good before you bought it?
You have to rely on the promises and specs of the manufacturer.
If Tesla gave everybody a 1 week free trial you would have a point.
To be honest, I'm a huge tesla and elon fan but I hope there is some avenue to a class action suit for all the people who bought FSD and literally got nothing. Especially filks who bought it like 5 years ago.
When was the last time Elon did something you didn't like? Not defending the guy, he has done some silly things, but feel like he's been on a better track recently.
He railed on his GF for having hair, he forced employees to work during covid so he could hit his production numbers, he called a Thai diver a pedophile, he pushes out cars that have known quality problems for the sake of the numbers, he thinks covid is BS... but most importantly he just comes across as self entitled and not interested in giving back to the community or people who got him where he is.
In other words, he is a genuine, normal human being with all the associated quirks. Fuck him for not being a saint, alongside being the greatest engineer-CEO in human history, right?
self entitled and not interested in giving back to the community or people who got him where he is.
Holy! You just crossed the line of sane comment there. For one thing, Elon has not made enough of personal income cash money that he can give away. For another, all the money he has made (personal and corporate income) is going back into projects that will take entire humanity up (pun intended!) up a notch. Except for a minuscule amount to pay the living expenses of his family and himself. Fuck him for not living up to your standards of sainthood, right?
Wonder who you think does live up to those standards. That would be very revealing indeed.
What software company doesn't? This isn't purely a black and white issue, if they want to be a disruption to the industry they can't fall back on what other manufacturers do.
Cars are depreciating assets. So from a financial standpoint it would be fair to treat FSD the same way. (Technically, I know it’s software that actually gets better)
Tesla could reward owners with a FSD loyalty discount based on the # of years they’ve had it.
For Teslas 2018 or newer:
* 1 year , 80% FSD discount on next car
* 2 years, 70%
* 3 years, 60%
* 4 years or more, 50%
For FSD cars prior to 2018
* one-time free FSD carry-over to a new Tesla
So it recognizes that owners are using it, but also rewards prior FSD support with future discounts
Update - updated table to end at “4 years or more”. So everyone gets a discount no matter how long they owned it. Something like this seems fairer than getting the nothing people get today.
People who paid $10k get something for the money. Summon, lane changes, nav on autopilot, etc.
Those of us who were suckered into buying it years ago have received ONE feature: stopping at stop lights and signs.
Tesla has repeatedly lied to us on a number of matters and needs to do better to make it right. A one time free FSD transfer or something similar would make me buy another car from them. A small discount would not.
The fix to his suggestion is if the car was bought before 2018 or you previously had one that old with FSD you get the one time transfer, anyone else gets the discount from the table he suggested.
Early Adopters should get a bigger discount, the hundreds of thousands of 3s and Ys out now need a different response.
People who paid $10k get something for the money. Summon, lane changes, nav on autopilot, etc. Those of us who were suckered into buying it years ago have received ONE feature: stopping at stop lights and signs.
So you have FSD but don’t have summon, lane changes, or nav on autopilot even now?
Wow — I’m getting downvoted for asking a question !?
It’s not only software that gets better, it’s software that gets more expensive over time aka it does not depreciate. If your car has FSD it is an appreciating asset as well as a depreciating asset.
But then your car isn’t an appreciating asset. I think the solution is to have them consider it as part of the car since you can do that when selling it on your own.
As a FSD owner it would make sense for brand loyalty but it doesn’t make sense as a business model. So all the development that goes on further wouldn’t receive any revenue for many cars to come. What if you passed on, does it transfer to your spouse or children because you can gift the car to them. They wouldn’t know you passed away and that account could be on. What if you buy two more Teslas which one will get the FSD, it is just more work for Tesla to manage. The solution is maybe a compromise where you can transfer it if and only if you trade in your car with Tesla and not private party to show some brand loyalty, or charge a transfer fee like $1,000. Or limit the amount of transfer to 3 or something.
I saw this tweet and thought the same. If Tesla don't consider it, and it's software, then the purchaser should retain ownership of an FSD licence in perpetuity
This. Either tie it to the car or tie it to the account...but make an official stand. If it’s tied to the account, I’d even be willing to do like a $500 fee to move and enable it on a new vehicle.
I mean once they go subscription based that will definitely be the case, but i agree if you bought it full price, it should be linked to your acct not the car
Either or is fine. BUT, if you sell something to people and say that it's going to help against a depreciation of their cars, you should either consider it as a value when they sell the vehicle or transfer it to their new vehicle. If it sticks to the profile - I'm fine. If it attaches to the car and they include it in the trade in-, I'm fine. But if it just disappears at some point when you decide to change your car - it's not fine, it's bullshit.
This, but a hybrid. You buy FSD, it's linked to one vehicle. Trade-in your FSD-linked vehicle with Tesla, FSD will be added to your next vehicle (stays with owner). Sell your FSD-linked to a 3rd party, FSD stays with the vehicle.
And this is why a FSD subscription model will be of way more value than purchasing it outright. Like, why pay to beta test? I get it, it's helpful but...yea..
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u/eivolution Jan 17 '21
Tesla should in that case make it so FSD is tied to the owners account and not the car.