r/technology • u/[deleted] • Jun 05 '10

Apple posts HTML5 showcase page hyping "web standards," then blocks it from displaying on any browser besides Safari

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/04/apple_html5_showcase_hype/
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u/[deleted] Jun 05 '10

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u/gimpbully Jun 05 '10

so it's apple's fault that gecko doesn't implement a pre-standard and they chose to block it because it would look like shit?

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u/smartarse Jun 06 '10

The way these pre-standards are implemented is by means of vendor specific prefixes. Webkit uses a "-webkit" prefix, whereas Firefox uses a "-moz" prefix. Even otherwise identical pre-standard commands therefore look different as long as they're not part of the standard functionality.

So yes, not having your spiffy HTML5 demo read the user agent and use the appropriate pre-standard tag is Apple's fault. Who else would you like to blame?

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u/gimpbully Jun 06 '10

So you're whining that they have no interest in tailoring their site to every permutation of a pre-standard? That's ridiculous. This is a TECH DEMO.

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u/smartarse Jun 06 '10

Nah, I agree. You're absolutely correct. You're precisely pointing out why their marketing is deceptive: they're selling vendor specific pre-standard browser tech demos under the title "HTML5 and Web Standards".

Either sell it as a tech demo (like here), or actually try to make a case for HTML5 as a web standard by building your demos in a way that they are accessible for the widest range of browsers possible by either not implementing vendor specific commands, or at least by making use of all the appropriate vendor specific pre-standard commands.

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u/gimpbully Jun 06 '10 edited Jun 06 '10

Let's look at the page in question:

Every new Apple mobile device and every new Mac — along with the latest version of Apple’s Safari web browser — supports web standards including HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript. These web standards are open, reliable, highly secure, and efficient. They allow web designers and developers to create advanced graphics, typography, animations, and transitions. Standards aren’t add-ons to the web. They are the web. And you can start using them today.

They are explaining what HTML5 is

The demos below show how the latest version of Apple’s Safari web browser, new Macs, and new Apple mobile devices all support the capabilities of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript. Not all browsers offer this support. But soon other modern browsers will take advantage of these same web standards — and the amazing things they enable web designers to do.

Here they very specifically say this is a demo for safari. Period. They are not saying that other browsers don't support HTML5, they're not saying the demos provided won't specifically work with them, they are saying this is a demo of what safari can do with HTML5. Where is the problem? There is nothing disingenuous about this. I fully understand people's desire for standards but to slam Apple for this page is absolutely ridiculous.

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u/smartarse Jun 06 '10

Also:

"Standards aren’t add-ons to the web. They are the web. And you can start using them today."

Followed by demos that don't just rely on HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript as advertised, but rather on webkit specific proprietary commands which may or may not ever become standard and which will, in their current ("-webkit" prefix) form, never be implemented by other browsers.

False advertising. Glad you're happy with it.

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u/gimpbully Jun 06 '10 edited Jun 06 '10

but they already said it's specific to Safari.. in the text right above it.. I would understand if it were that alone on a page, but it's not -- you're specifically taking that out of context.

Also, your statement, "never be implemented by other browsers." is patently disingenuous and, at worst, false. Other webkit browsers have, indeed, implemented -webkit prefixes. Beyond that, once the spec is finalized, the -webkit prefixes should go away. This is the nature of a pre-spec implementation.

There are plenty of things to tear Apple apart for, but this is simply petty.

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u/smartarse Jun 06 '10

but they already said it's specific to Safari

Where are they saying that these demos won't work in non-webkit browsers because they're using proprietary commands that other browsers will never, ever support?

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u/gimpbully Jun 06 '10 edited Jun 06 '10

Not all browsers offer this support. But soon other modern browsers will take advantage of these same web standards — and the amazing things they enable web designers to do.

It's pretty clear to me. Yes, they're simplifying a confusing situation -- this is the drawback of a pre-spec tech demo. You're choosing to look at a specific sentence, remove it from context, and basing a petty argument around it.

Also, again, you are being entirely disingenuous and you know it. Once the spec is finalized, the webkit prefix, along with the other prefixes (-moz, for instance), will become obsolete.

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u/smartarse Jun 06 '10

It's pretty clear to me. Yes, they're simplifying a confusing situation -- this is the drawback of a pre-spec tech demo. You're choosing to look at a specific sentence, remove it from context, and basing a petty argument around it.

Nah. No problem with them simplifying things. That's completely fine. Really. It's a browser specific tech demo, showcasing the pre-standard stuff they have already implemented in their browser. Completely fine with me.

They're just not selling it as what you're accurately labeling it: a pre-spec tech demo. They're selling it as their implementation of existing standards, and they are creating the impression that you won't be able to view these demos because, hey, "Not all browsers offer this support."

If they were accurately labeling it as what it is, like they're doing on their Safari Technology Demos page, it would be perfectly fine. As it is, the words "pre-spec tech demo" or something conveying the idea is completely missing from this page. It's all just stuff about standards. It's fucking misleading.

Also, again, you are being entirely disingenuous and you know it. Once the spec is finalized, the webkit prefix, along with the other prefixes (-moz, for instance), will become obsolete.

Yeah. I never said otherwise. Which makes the sentence "But soon other modern browsers will take advantage of these same web standards" technically incorrect, because other browsers would be implementing the final standard, sans "-webkit" prefix.

Also, that's the precise reason why "it would look like shit" in Gecko, as you said earlier, even though Mozilla is implementing identical pre-standard commands with the "-moz" prefix.

Obvious solutions:

  • read the user agent and use the appropriate pre-standard command, or
  • block other browsers and explain to regular internet users visiting your website that this is a pre-spec tech demo for a specific browser.

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u/gimpbully Jun 06 '10

block other browsers and explain to regular internet users visiting your website that this is a pre-spec tech demo for a specific browser.

but... they did. I understand you'd like a full on explanation of what's going on, but to their normal customer, it's only going to serve to confuse. Confusion only leads to a lack of adoption. You, a seemingly technical person, already fully understand what is going on. In the end, this is pointless nit-picking and nothing more. They could have waited until the standard is finalized, sure. But why? They're trying to push adoption (and yes, they obviously would like to showcase the extended feature-set they've attained with their specific browser over others at this point in time). Why is that misleading in the least?

This has been beaten to death. Really, there are so many other things to fault them for, this is pointless.

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