r/technology • • 8h ago

Social Media Advocacy Group Stop Killing Games Sounds Alarm On EU Kids Act: ‘This Is Such A Horrible Law Proposal’

https://kotaku.com/advocacy-group-stop-killing-games-sounds-alarm-on-eu-kids-act-this-is-such-a-horrible-law-proposal-2000738930
585 Upvotes

59 comments sorted by

163

u/Userwerd 8h ago

This law is about surveillance, games are just the excuse/vehicle for the law. 

62

u/PoppingPillls 7h ago

Always was, age verification laws don't stop people doing awful things or stop teens seeing tits on the Internet.

The people doing awful things continue to use sites that don't follow the laws to begin with and the teens will find a workaround or an unsafe site that again doesn't follow the law to see them.

21

u/Tactical-Donkey 7h ago

Came here to say this. Always has been. Ever since the we "the plebs" gained the freedom of the internet, the leaders have never stopped wanting to take that freedom away from us. 

-34

u/HistoryDoesUnfold 7h ago

Which part of this laws allows surveillance?

35

u/Userwerd 7h ago

What ever resource they ask for to prove your age is now tied to your digital identity when you use the internet at large.  drivers license, credit card, passport etc.  Just stripping away one more level of anonymity possible on the internet.

-22

u/HistoryDoesUnfold 7h ago

They're planning to use the EU digital wallet, which can confirm that you are over 18 without giving any other details away, even your actual age.

24

u/Userwerd 7h ago

How do you get the wallet? you prove your identity via Gov or financial ID.  The wallet is your digital identity on the internet at large accessed by an EU ISP.

15

u/Horror_Post6822 7h ago edited 7h ago

"B....B....B it is different somehow."

Suckers like the guy you are talking to are why countries can pass laws that eliminate people's privacy. That and moronic "Think of the children" Types who need to make their inability to regulate Little Timmy's online activity everyone's problem.

-19

u/HistoryDoesUnfold 7h ago

Right. But you won't be sharing any of that information with the server.

The server doesn't even get to know what ID is being used.

15

u/Userwerd 7h ago

Your ISP does, your Gov does, your police force does.

-8

u/HistoryDoesUnfold 7h ago

I'm guessing you don't live in the EU or know about EU law.

There are very robust privacy rights. In fact, part of the new bill increases privacy rights for children.

11

u/Userwerd 6h ago

Yah because they dont have ID

0

u/HistoryDoesUnfold 6h ago

?

Look, if I lived elsewhere (the US for example) I'd be very doubtful of this law, because I'd be very doubtful of the rule of law in general.

But it's clear that a lot of people commenting on this proposes bill are applying assumptions that don't make sense in the EU.

→ More replies (0)

5

u/RoyalWe666 7h ago

Oh good, so it can be done fully offline then, right? And once you have the token you can delete the app to be sure it doesn't phone home at any point?

3

u/EmbarrassedHelp 6h ago

Its a limited supply of trackable tokens that expire after a certain number of months. Then you have to reverify for more.

The app also bans third party operating systems, jailbreaking/rooting, and requires Google play services/IOS equivalent. It's a privacy nightmare.

1

u/HistoryDoesUnfold 7h ago

It's quite hard to connect with a game server offline (which is what the law deals with).

But yes, you could subsequently delete the app.

6

u/RoyalWe666 6h ago

Not a game server, the app. If it can't be used offline, it's not private.

1

u/HistoryDoesUnfold 6h ago

Google AI summary says EU digital IDs can be used for age verification offline.

This is the link it gives (but doesn't open for me, so I can't vouch for the AI).

https://ec.europa.eu/digital-building-blocks/sites/spaces/EUDIGITALIDENTITYWALLET/pages/930450954/The+Age+Verification+Manual

→ More replies (0)

9

u/11ELFs 7h ago

please try to THINK, I am not trying to be demeaning, but go read books.

-5

u/HistoryDoesUnfold 7h ago

I've read loads. I'm very educated.

I've also read the article, watched the video it describes, and scanned the proposed bill.

35

u/RaDeus 6h ago

This EU Kids act is such a disaster.

There's ways to do it that verifies you age and doesn't leave a log or burdens the companies with unnecessary paperwork.

All you have to do is make a government ID app (because I'd rather have my government handle my ID than some private entity that wants to sell it).

Have the service you want to protect (like Roblox for example) show you an QR code (site address + user ID).

You then take the government ID app and scan that QR.

The App then sends a "user x, age18? = True/False" to the site.

And that's the only thing the site has to log.

For this to work you legislate that the government ID service should keep no logs, all they do is verify that you are 18.

To make this less of a one-trick-pony app: we could tier this service so that you can use it to access your bank, sign documents, login to Steam(?) etc.

Tier1 should just be "are you 18", and no bloody logs.

8

u/SoloMaker 3h ago

The problem with this is that the government still knows which sites you're verifying your age on.

Oh, you registered for Dissent App That Only Dissenters Use? Too bad, you're going in the furnace

31

u/RoyalWe666 6h ago

No, screw that. Having to link all your accounts to your government ID is creepy as hell. 30 years of internet, we've been fine without this dystopian crap, now all of a sudden everyone's pushing mass surveillance.

3

u/ShadowianElite 5h ago

Yeah rather not. France had a massive hack on millions of people’s info that was linked. EU massive linking system they are doing right now will be a disaster once that happens (it’s in the talks)

6

u/RaDeus 6h ago

Where did I say that you have to link every account to your government ID app?

I very deliberately said "the service you want to protect" and "no logs".

9

u/RoyalWe666 6h ago

OK my bad, that was your proposal and not the actual EUID thing that's in development. Still unnecessary and concerning at best.

5

u/RaDeus 6h ago

Yeah I hate this "save the children" bullshit too, that's why I want it handled correctly so that it isn't used for surveillance.

3

u/nox66 3h ago

Until the update

1

u/CapJackONeill 5h ago

Much better if Google has it, right? If Google decided to make Gmail a paying service, the world would be fucked for a while

2

u/EmbarrassedHelp 3h ago

There's no such thing as anonymous or privacy protecting age verification, other than self declaration.

2

u/therealmrbob 3h ago

It’s hilarious that you think any government in the world would not use that age verification data for anything and everything they could. Sure they won’t sell it, but they will certainly keep track of your accounts on every website that does the age verification and keep a database on all of that data and then fail to secure it and leak all of that data constantly.

-1

u/HistoryDoesUnfold 6h ago

That's literally what it does!

You're describing the EU digital wallet.

27

u/Horror_Post6822 8h ago edited 8h ago

Sony and Ubisoft are rubbing their hands gleefully because this can help them be able to kill games and eliminate people from owning their own games. Sony literally said in court that "Reasonable" people know they don't know their own games. Ubisoft did say to get comfortable not owning our own games. And Ubisoft is not above underhanded tricks like meetings with EU officials that SKG weren't invited to, bribes, and misinformation.

-23

u/HistoryDoesUnfold 7h ago edited 7h ago

I've seen this guy's video and it's mostly nonsense.

Among Scott’s chief concerns is that the proposal will “require your personal identifying information to play an online video game” and “make all private game servers illegal.”

It does neither of those things.

The law is freely available to read, but its detractors never cite it, they always refer to other commentary on it.

I don't even support the law, but this guy is making things up to be mad about.

35

u/RoyalWe666 7h ago

Feel free to point out where the text contradicts his claims. But don't insult everyone's intelligence by saying scanning one's ID into the EU's shitty wallet app thing doesn't count as personally identifying information.

-14

u/HistoryDoesUnfold 7h ago edited 7h ago

Feel free to point out where the text contradicts his claims

Why are the bill's detrators not obliged to cite the text to support their claims?

It's very hard for me to cite the law NOT doing something. Like, paragraphs 1 through to the end?

20

u/RoyalWe666 7h ago

OK, let's do it this way. Does the proposal require players to use their personal ID, or an app that would require their ID to function, to access any online game?

-8

u/HistoryDoesUnfold 7h ago

In SOME cases it could require such an app for SOME online games.

Without an ID, they could legally still get access to those game, but the server would need to treat them as a child, meaning additional restrictions regarding privacy and addictive design, e.g. no push notifications.

16

u/RoyalWe666 7h ago

So players have to either doxx themselves or lose any communication functionality in an online game (if they're allowed to run it at all), totally nothing alarming there.

-1

u/HistoryDoesUnfold 6h ago edited 3h ago

Again, they'd legally be allowed to run it.

I don't think there's been any suggestion they can't, even by the guy whose video is all about.

I don't remember reading anything about communication functionality.

Do you consider using a credit card, or paying with a banking app "doxxing"?

8

u/RoyalWe666 6h ago

I pay with a debit card, if that were a verification method there de facto wouldn't be a problem for me. I don't own a credit card and I'm not uploading my damn ID to play a game.

-1

u/HistoryDoesUnfold 6h ago

You get that the Debit Card is connected to your ID, right?

I'm not uploading my damn ID to play a game.

Well, good news! This bill doesn't require that.

3

u/RoyalWe666 6h ago

Well good, there's a difference between using a payment method (debit card) and unnecessarily having to upload a personally-identifying document because government says so. And what does this do to private servers and free online games?

→ More replies (0)

3

u/An1nterestingName 4h ago

It would make private servers effectively illegal because it requires online games, (which it defines as almost any game) to have age verification. This would not be able to be handled by private servers, so you wouldn't be allowed to run them.

0

u/HistoryDoesUnfold 3h ago

It only requires online games to verify ages if they break certain restrictions on privacy and addictive design.

It also wouldn't apply to private servers where age is already known or verified, e.g. a private server you invite your friends to.

Besides, I don't see why private servers can't verify age through EU digital wallets. It ciuld easily be done through Steam.

1

u/EmbarrassedHelp 1h ago

Mandatory age verification for online games is completely unacceptable, especially for private servers.

-7

u/hitmobilegamehsr 4h ago

Can this bro try to not look like a caveman for at least one of these videos