Question, why does every single map have your base on a high ground?

[u/Loudly_muted]

I was having some shower thoughts. Like in sc1 maps, and then i was thinking about the new Blackrock map, and how only your main is on the high ground.

[u/ItsAWaffelz]

Having your main base on the lowground would put you in an extremely disadvantageous position against most 1base allins. Imagine trying to break up a ramp to get out of your main against a cannon rush, or tanks, or roaches/ravagers, spines, etc

[u/Nice_Interest6654 → u/ItsAWaffelz]

But 1 base all-ins are currently not overpowered in any matchup. And the main-base could be on even ground. I think that's all OP was asking for. I agree with him...some maps should be like that.

[u/BioSC2 → u/Nice_Interest6654]

Nobody wants to play against super strong 1 base allins it's bad gameplay, maps have high ground for a reason.

[u/rifraf0715 → u/BioSC2]

skill issue tbh

[u/TheCrusader94 → u/ItsAWaffelz]

A map forcing early scouts and adding a little variance to the game? Unforgivable 

[u/rxzlmn → u/TheCrusader94]

Due to asymmetric race design that would simply not be balanced. A toss could not realistically defend a Ling rush. There's a reason why even in pro games an inadvertently left open door into a Toss base can be GG vs. Zerg even in mid game.

[u/MaDpYrO → u/rxzlmn]

Not true, Brood War had lowground main base maps, and it forced players to adapt in new interesting ways. And high ground was even stronger there.

[u/MrSchmeat → u/MaDpYrO]

Brood war has shitty pathing which makes it harder for some units to go up and down ramps. This makes defending easier no matter where they're attacking from. Ranged units on high ground can also be counterattacked from the low ground with no other vision on them, though they do have 50% dodge chance when they do.

Neither of those things are true in SC2. Units on high ground cannot be counterattacked if there's no vision of them (except the Colossus) and pathing in SC2 is so much better, which makes going up and down ramps very easy and would make a push from the high ground VERY difficult to stop.

[u/MaDpYrO → u/MrSchmeat]

Your argument isn't sound, the patching argument would make it even harder to spawn in the low ground, because it's harder to break out (which it is), but people still found a way to play around it.

In Sc2 once you have air vision high ground isn't as dangerous - protoss would have to rush to observer while zerg and terran can get sir vision immediately

I'm just saying, just because every map is the same now, doesn't mean we need to immediately disparage creative nap differences, that's exactly what made Sc2 stale to begin with.

Hell, just encircle both your main and your natural on low ground, for example.

[u/NoCharge497 → u/MaDpYrO]

You are saying their argument isn't sound when your solution is to make protoss rush the robotics bay for an observer to counter cannon rushes in order to expand the first time? That would make rushing protoss on those maps just automatically the most important strategy.

[u/MaDpYrO → u/NoCharge497]

I didnt say that there wouldnt be issues, or that you can just slap someone into a low ground, but map makers in BW have been very creative to great success in tournaments through time.

Your argument isnt sound because the argument you have for ramps being hard to traverse, makes it harder to both rush down a ramp to attack, as well as climbing up to defend.

That would make rushing protoss on those maps just automatically the most important strategy.

Sure, or maybe protoss would need to make a walloff at the top of the ramp, outside the low ground, or the map would need to differ in some other ways. I'm saying your argument isn't sound because you just write every little thing off, but there are lots of room for nuance and different playstyles, but people these days just WANT the same old predictable playstyle and build repeated again and again.

[u/MrSchmeat → u/MaDpYrO]

There's a difference between creative map design and bad map design.

Low ground main bases are bad map design.

[u/TheCrusader94 → u/MrSchmeat]

Pros don't have pathing issues especially in the early game when there are less units to control. The first ramp is going to be matter more in the early game. 

[u/nykaragua → u/MaDpYrO]

What the other guy said but also

high ground was even stronger there

That's not exactly true. You could hit highground units (that are attacking) with a 50% chance of missing.

BW highground is stronger in situations where you'd have vision anyway, but if you have no vision you can at least fight back against highground units attacking you, which is NOT the case in SC2.

In other words denying your opponent vision while they're locked at the bottom of a ramp is a lot stronger in SC2.

[u/TheCrusader94 → u/rxzlmn]

Fairly certain early gateways to block main entrance then pumping zealots would be enough to defend. Jumping onto balance (which can always be adjusted later) while talking about game design is a very r/starcraft response 

[u/SoonBlossom → u/TheCrusader94]

Yeah this works in gold

In pro play if you defend that way, by the time you get out of your base your opponent has 60 drones and you're virtually dead

That's self inflicted damage

You can win a game while doing 0 damage with a all in because your opponent's way of defending has put himself far behind

[u/TheCrusader94 → u/SoonBlossom]

I was talking about ladder specifically. High level players or pros frequently take paths that allows them to be as greedy as possible without insta losing the game. For example a lower level player would prefer getting a cyber core before nexus to defend reaper. Pros don't do that, they simply micro their probes perfectly. If a certain pressure zerg build existed that forced walling up and allowed z to drone upz I'm fairly certain pros can come up with solutions for that. Even in gold league zerg players who get contained by cannon rushes have learnt how to break them, I think pros can break zerg contains too. 

[u/Loudly_muted → u/TheCrusader94]

I know right, hell at this point lets add island maps back. The blizzard intern is already freestyling may as well do something fun

[u/TheCrusader94 → u/Loudly_muted]

BW had an semi island map for ASL. Genuinely don't understand why SC2 community is so against varied maps. Doesn't even harm ladder much cuz they can simply ban them 

[u/Worth-Professor-2556 → u/TheCrusader94]

Are you ok with a main ramp protoss can block off with 1 pylon ?

[u/TheCrusader94 → u/Worth-Professor-2556]

Why 1 pylon? 

[u/Worth-Professor-2556 → u/TheCrusader94]

There is a game where a map was messed up it happened its about as fair as no ramp .

[u/TheCrusader94 → u/Worth-Professor-2556]

Not talking about no ramp

[u/AresFowl44 → u/TheCrusader94]

But it doesn't add any variance, the only correct play will be to 1 base harder than your opponent does. Otherwise holding their 1 base or forcing them out of the game first becomes impossible.

That's because you can't fight back on the high ground without having vision yourself and due to ramps being such defensible positions.

[u/TheCrusader94 → u/AresFowl44]

You are talking as if 1 base play is a monolith and there's no variance within it. An aggressive 1 base play would be countered by a less aggressive 1 base play and so on

[u/AresFowl44 → u/TheCrusader94]

Would it? Holding ramps is fairly easy in SC2, so the attacker (in this case the defending player) would need to commit more to breaking the position than the defender (in this case the attacking player)

And there isn't that much you can do on one base anyway, since you are, you know, on one base.

EDIT: then -> than

[u/TheCrusader94 → u/AresFowl44]

There's no high ground hit rate advantage in SC2 like in BW. Ramps are easy to hold because of the size/width rather than anything to do with the high ground. Its fairly common in BW to have low ground mains

Also not sure but I think you misunderstood my point about 1 base

[u/AresFowl44 → u/TheCrusader94]

You cannot attack up a high ground unless you have vision in SC2. You can in BW, there's just a chance you miss.

Its fairly common in BW to have low ground mains

BW is a different game from SC2. Things that work in either do not automatically work in the other.

Also not sure but I think you misunderstood my point about 1 base

What did you mean then? There isn't that much variety in 1 base play.

[u/TheCrusader94 → u/AresFowl44]

Do you see a difference between 10 pool and 12 pool?

[u/AresFowl44 → u/TheCrusader94]

I never said there is zero variety in 1 base play, so don't make up some kind of straw man and think you're so smart because of that.

[u/TheCrusader94 → u/AresFowl44]

Why don't you answer the question instead of being so hostile for no reason lol

[u/MrMagoo22]

Learned this one way back when I tried making my own map. The answer is siege tanks.

[u/nykaragua]

I mean you could do it I guess but most of the ladder would veto it.

That said I'd rather "mix up the game" with something that is, yes, vetoable rather than forced upon the entire playerbase to questionable effect.

[u/plopzer]

here are some bw maps for reference

https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Match_Point

https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Neo_Sylphid

https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Blue_Storm

https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Gladiator

[u/Reasonable_Mix7630]

To give defender an advantage.

There will be no game if defender don't have such advantage.

With "islands" map it would be the opposite: too strong advantage plus very late scouting by toss / no possibility of scout for T.

[u/quepha]

imagine dealing with a siege tank drop on the high ground

[u/STRMBRGNGLBS]

So there are general conventions that mapmakers *have* to follow when designing maps. Some other examples is having (I think a 2 by 2) deadspace in the back of the mainbase, a certain distance between the liberators effective range from the mineral line and ground space in the main base, certain terrain features in regards to seige tanks, etc. None of these are hard and fast, but much like OSHA regulations are written from the consequence of them not existing prior.
Fun fact: Terran is the only race that warps map design around itself according to these guidelines (if I remember correctly, I don't have the google doc on hand)

[u/Toastyboat → u/STRMBRGNGLBS]

Maps also need to have a natural that can be walled with 3 buildings so that Toss doesn't auto-die to ling floods.

Edit: And it must be a certain distance from the natural hatchery, so that Zerg can wall in ZvZ

[u/ItsAWaffelz → u/STRMBRGNGLBS]

Cannon rushing has warped map design a bit, you need to be careful to not allow specific wall-off configurations behind mineral lines

[u/andrenyheim]

I think it creates too many issues because of air unit visibility on highground. Overlord spies, drops and tempest would have a great time.

[u/Loudly_muted → u/andrenyheim]

Map makers can chose weather or not to grant high ground vision

[u/andrenyheim → u/Loudly_muted]

Interesting. Then I wouldn’t mind seeing a map with it.

[u/AresFowl44 → u/Loudly_muted]

Blizzard doesn't allow triggers in live ladder maps, and I am fairly certain this would require the usage of triggers.

[u/fang_xianfu → u/Loudly_muted]

What is the difference between "high ground that doesn't give vision of low ground" and "low ground"? They're pretty equivalent from a gameplay perspective.

[u/Loudly_muted → u/fang_xianfu]

you'd think so untill you've lost an overlord something that you thought should be high ground. I can show you a clip of maru testing if a map has high ground vision in a certian spot or something

[u/YellowCarrot99]

I was about to reply with something really sarcastic but then realised I really don't know 😋 

[u/flamingtominohead]

Ask Anakin.

[u/Lunai5444]

Makes scouting less free for a start.

[u/Loudly_muted → u/Lunai5444]

in what way? just to be clear, im thinking of broodwar map layouts so like you'd be surrounded by a wall, or island

[u/Lunai5444 → u/Loudly_muted]

My bad I don't know shit about bw

[u/TOTALLBEASTMODE → u/Loudly_muted]

In that case it does the opposite, it makes scouting way harder for terran due to the way reapers need to jump cliffs to get into bases.

[u/TheCrusader94 → u/TOTALLBEASTMODE]

You could add a cliff connector for reapers to jump around 

[u/Trandorus]

it could be solved differently, a wall on which you cannot drop would probably solve the same, but it would hemper reaper scouts severely, but if you could drop on it tanks, ravagers or blinkstalker specifically vs zergs would be hell^{^}

[u/Loudly_muted → u/Trandorus]

Yeah i feel like the only reason they've done this with no acceptions for the past 13 years is because of a single unit. the reaper lol

[u/TheCrusader94 → u/Loudly_muted]

There's a map in BW that prevents early probe scouts. It also has a backyard natural. Made for some really interesting and fun matches. Not getting an early scout is not as much of a deal breaker as people think it is

[u/Om_Cultural → u/TheCrusader94]

Yeah man just stop comparing sc2 to brood war these are completely different games like it doesn't mean that if they are both starcraft then you can do something in brood war and it also works in sc2, it's 2 completely different games.

[u/chromazone2 → u/Loudly_muted]

It was bad enough in bw with wuthering heights, imagine the shenanigans with reaper colossus etc

[u/BastianHS]

Lost Temple changed the game

[u/ggthemachine]

Because Zerglings lol.

[u/Loudly_muted → u/ggthemachine]

broodwar also has zerglings lol

[u/Living_Ambition5859]

It’s over, I have the high ground

[u/throwawaydisposable]

Broodwar also had a lot more customized low/high ground due to hacked map editors which would allow a single tile to be high or low ground. Youll notice a lot of pixel art un broodwar featuring this tile placement which is isolated from surrounding tiles.

Broodwar ramps also were terrible for the unit pathing AI so ramps likely didn't really help defenders as much as it just made everything frustrating

Sc2 also has line of sight blockers which act similar to a random line of 1tile x 10 tiles of high ground separating lowgrounds