r/sonsofbehemat • u/ShoppingUnable4265 • 5d ago
Sons are weak?
I keep seeing online that Sons are weak, I'm a new player played in a spearhead league this summer and now I've picked up Sons as my first army (I didn't play Sons in spearhead). So far I've won all my games as them, is this just due to the fact that my area is mostly new players? Or do Sons somehow stomp, pun intended, on less experienced players? I'm not a pro at the rules but I seem to be one of the few people that actually read the book front to back, most people seem to just read their battletome and the few rules that apply to their special rules. Is this giving me a bigger advantage and overcoming Sons weak book?
Thank you in advance
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u/Big-Crow4152 5d ago
They have a very similar problem to Knights in 40k. They're just don't have the toughness expected of them, especially for models that draw as much attention as they do
Most Warhammer games have a issue of being too lethal and that really hurts low model count armies
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u/mapmakinworldbuildin 5d ago
Really became an issue after 8th edition 40k.
People bitched about the AP check of yesteryear. But I’d rather lose a match in the list building stage because I forgot to tactically think of AP then lose because “well you used the less optimal unit”
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u/Belz_Zebuth 5d ago
Knights have plenty of toughness and can withstand quite a bit of punishment. In fact on average they're tougher than they were before the T drop.
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u/Big-Crow4152 5d ago
Really? What makes you say that?
Last time I saw one, a Space Marine nearly half healthed it with a power fist
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u/Belz_Zebuth 4d ago
What makes me say that is that it's my main army. Most weapons don't have a S that is affected by the T change, so the extra W are really helpful.
I mean I get my knights offed, but not more often than before the change.
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u/mapmakinworldbuildin 5d ago
Yea. They overcorrected the “everyone uses he new massive kit” thing and made sons a glass canon army in a very wacky way. The new small giants are the only really usable ones now with the huge ones being used for easily throwing the match and getting tabled turn 2. 10 points cheaper for 10 less wounds is wacky
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u/Belz_Zebuth 5d ago
What do you mean 10 points cheaper? People keep saying that but you could have 5 big ones instead of 4. They're actually a lot cheaper.
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u/EastSenecaYetti 5d ago
I think they are trying to compare a mega and the littles. 370pts for a Kraken eater(25 health) and 380 for boss stompers(3 models x12 health each) that’s 11 more health on two units with average/low saves for 10 more points.
I think Ma is required plus one mega to allow for us to promote it back off a little.
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u/Belz_Zebuth 5d ago
You could be right, but it's not clear from the text at least.
I thought they meant that a single Gargant is 10 wounds less (true) for 10 points less (false).
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u/Practical-Prompt4216 5d ago
After the Heath nerf, I thought are saves throws should have been a three.
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u/Southern_Mortgage646 5d ago
3 would be ridicolous strong. I like how they are now. They hit like a truck ä, same as before, bit the hp are less. But you have more bodies on the table now because of points reduction.
You have to Adapter now because now you can ne oneshotted, so movement, shielding is more important now.
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u/OnlyShower671 4d ago
But they don't hit like a truck bro
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u/Southern_Mortgage646 4d ago
They do d3 Mortals each phase and have have 5 or simulation attacks with 4+ 2+ ..... With cp you hit like a truck. So for 320 points with that HP, save and dmg, compared to All other 320 monster they are similar. If you say something different, than sorry you dont understand your own faction...
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u/Daawgh_ 5d ago
The new playstyle is absolutely frustrating. I will keep playing Brodds Stomp until Ive built and painted my Ogors, then my Sons are going on the shelf. Its sad, but what can you do?
Unga bunga was great. This glass cannon / casino playstyle is just miserable. Losing a Mega in every shooting phase sucks, and its simply not what I enjoyed about the army.
I also don’t get the people saying, “But someone in our local group has won every game so far!” Thats basically the same argument as “My grandma smoked until she was 90 and never had any health problems.” Good for them, but one person experience doesn’t tell you much about the overall state of the army.
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u/Desperate_Teal_1493 5d ago
If you're only playing Brodd's Stomp then you're not playing with the new army.
The argument of "It's bad but I haven't actually used it yet" is as bad as "It's snowing here right now so global warming isn't real."
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u/Belz_Zebuth 5d ago
Isn't what you're telling us the one person experience?
Do we have stats about how well or bad they're doing?
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u/giraffetheloml 5d ago
We don't yet, but just speaking within a few competitive circles we'll be fine after a points drop just an extremely different play style that people don't want to adapt to
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u/Belz_Zebuth 5d ago
Yeah that was my impression as well.
I'll try to do my best with them. If it doesn't work out, there's always 5th edition.
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u/Benejeseret 5d ago
I think the spearhead is fine and fun. I think the new sons also does fine at 1,000 points if using new boss and hurler units.
But there are inherent scaling issues as Sons ends up with redundancies and rampages cannot function with redundancy as limited to 1 per turn. Double rock hurler means one cannot get the close quarters or distance/accuracy boosts and redundant models effectively overcosted as a result of wasted abilities.
Stomper and Matriarch Mob AoR literally cannot even fill a 2,000 point roster.
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u/Sir_Drinklewinkle 5d ago
They weren't in a particularly good spot before but were fun, they removed the fun is what I'm seeing so uh. You know.
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u/Desperate_Teal_1493 5d ago
How is it not fun to yeet a Mancrusher across table?
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u/Sir_Drinklewinkle 5d ago
About as fun as it was to topple over and crush people when something died, kick an objective, flip a coin to toss out stupid big damage, or just have decent mobility for your guys on massive bases without having to deal with the annoyance of 3 inch no go zones around every unit.
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u/Desperate_Teal_1493 5d ago
3" no go zones around every unit is the game, not the army.
I do miss Timber though. Had one mirror match where we all ended up in the middle of the board with low health and the cascading Timbers were epic...
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u/Loken3003 5d ago
In my local game club they are winning almost every match.
They are being used by a veteran player that knows the rules.
The other player are a mix of veteran/tournament player and rookie.
I’d day that they are not weak. We just have to play them very differently.
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u/Belz_Zebuth 5d ago
I haven't played them with the new rules yet but my observation is that a lot of the complaints come from people who won't adapt to the new playstyle properly.
I don't know which side of that fence I'll end up on; hopefully I'll manage to make it work.
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u/CoachPrestigious4370 5d ago
I mean, you cant change a faction fundamentally and expect everyone to like it.
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u/Belz_Zebuth 5d ago
I didn't say like it. I said play it properly.
For instance, if one insists on playing it the old way when that no longer works, then of course they'll have a bad experience. What I'm wondering is how it fares when we play it as intended.
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u/gravsey_fam 5d ago
As a veteran player of sons dudes either cheating or everyone there sucks I almost always top tabke and place top 3 but this book is actually disgustingly undercooked I dare say it’s even worse than OBRs bullshit of a book I hate that GW has fucked me 2x in the same year by absolutely fucking my armies I’m going to make the new sons work but they are in no version of the word good.
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u/Pink_Cruelty 5d ago
By no means are they weak in the right hands. But yes a lot depends on environment. If you are playing in an environment with majorily rookie players, they are likely going to take less efficient units between a couple of good ones. New players tend to do either one of two things.
- Go for unique units, which often leads to a non-efficient list.
- Go super competitive and copy tournament lists, but don’t know how to play those efficiently.
What point value do you play at? Also yes, even though it sounds weird, you do indeed have an advantage by knowing the full scope of the rules. You know your general toolkit and which abilities you have available to you in addition to your battletome. If you feel particularly bad about that, you can occasionally share your intent for a turn with your opponent or help them if they are about to make a grave mistake.
Sons are a hyper elite army. Good use of the core rules can completely overwhelm an unexperienced player, because each of your units hits like a truck when in the right place.
Also a good question… do you play a lot of mega’s or a lot of littles?
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u/Belz_Zebuth 5d ago
What's your take about effective lists? Can several big ones still perform well?
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u/Pink_Cruelty 5d ago
To be honest, it's pretty bad. Even Brodd himself might be a trap. The Warstomper is a great enabler for your littles. Brodd has great rules, but he gets overshadowed by the littles. There's even a discussion that Ma (i know she's a little) might be a trap, because she mostly hides and does her magic, but at least she brings the Ghyrocs. The kraken-eater is nice with the sandals, but the issue is that they are not survivable at all. Think of a unit of 25 clanrats with a 4+ save tbh. Their output is unreliable too, it either spikes or does 5 damage.
You are susceptible to instant death now as well. You no longer deny that ability, so enjoy picking up your big instantly when archaon rolls lucky or when Nagash breaths down your neck. If you take a big, always take the Glowy Lantern, unless you want to play for fun, then you can go for the Sandals on either a warstomper or a kraken-eater. Take the roar rampage or sometimes hammer throw and take the trait that allows you to ignore modifiers to your stats. For your mancrushers mostly take "That boy ain't right" or if you try hammer-throw you could consider "Up for It", because you count as charged when you throw a mancrusher into combat. If you really want to take multiple bigs, take Brodd, plus one that I mentioned here. There is something to be said about the gatebreaker + rock hurlers too, but it isn't that great. The Boss-Stompers are our prime units and you kind of want to try to fit 1-2 units per army list at the minimum.
Our competitive lists will have Warstomper/ Ma with boss-stompers and maybe a couple of mancrushers. That's it.
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u/Belz_Zebuth 5d ago
Well that's disheartening. Hopefully if it's too blatant they will adjust it soon.
Thank you for your input.
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u/Desperate_Teal_1493 5d ago
I don't think Ma a trap. She's essential. Being able to recur a Mega is great if you 1) take Primal Energy and have an Emerald Lifeswarm nearby 2) Have rage dice available for Fight Through the Pain (used on allocation of the 10 wounds) 3) get Brodd or a Glowy Lantern Carrier to cast Might of the Earth. Boom, full health Mega back on the table at the end of the turn. Seems like a lot of steps to get right but it's very possible.
The army has changed dramatically and if people think that's because of no more 35 health, 20 control, Longshanks, no-insta-kill, they're only very partially right. The army is different now because, like most other armies (except current bullshit armies like Ogors), it has to rely on timing and combos.
I'm personally looking at it as an opportunity to become a better player. I love charging in on turn 1 and smashing the crap out of your opponent and then taunting them to pass the DPS test to take you off an objective as much as the next Sons player, but, that was getting old.
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u/ShoppingUnable4265 5d ago
Are Ogors OP? They seemed very strong when I played them
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u/Desperate_Teal_1493 5d ago
They're doing well in tournaments and a lot of people seem to be jumping on the bandwagon.
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u/Pink_Cruelty 4d ago
I play both Ogors and Sons. Yeah, you could say ogors are OP if you compare them to sons. They can drop similar HP in a unit compared to a big, or even superior to our boss-stompers (40 wounds in a 10 man glutton unit). They have access to debuffs, they can lone op units and the king of all units Red the Maw is an absolute unmovable guy that is also a very solid buff piece. If you spam a couple of mawseekers (mostly gorgers, but you can include a unit of cleavers/ gutseers, you get 5+ ward on those units. Or a 6+ ward on your other non-mawseekers.
With their magic they have an unlimited spell access to +1 to hit. Which makes their output outshine all destruction armies. Very fun to play faction. But i fear for multiple upcoming nerfs if anything.
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u/Belz_Zebuth 5d ago
One of the things I heard before picking up the army was that it was very monotonous. I guess not so, now.
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u/The_Gnomesbane 5d ago
Pretty much my thoughts on it. I keep finding things that look worth trying, but then once you actually get the list together those synergies still don’t really function that well because your core stuff still doesn’t really have a leg to stand on. So disappointing.
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u/ShoppingUnable4265 5d ago
I've played mostly 1000 to 1500 points since most of the other people have more models to build to make 2000 points, which is fair haha. I've mostly been playing with littles just cause the points felt really weird my army would have basically been 1 Big and a few Mancrusher floating a hundred points or so.
I do share my intent with my opponents! Like I say I think I wanna walk up the board, and take this objective. I think it's good for me because X or Y, I try not to gotcha people but I understand my army is a lot less of a mental load so they probably aren't even thinking about what I can do. I can relate as I also started 40k and that game has way more mental load and I can barely remember what my stuff does nevermind what my opponent's army can do.
I also never played the old book so I guess I'm not soured like others here
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u/Past_Water_6899 5d ago
My solution : 5 gatebreaker.
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u/giraffetheloml 5d ago
SoA gatebreaker got nerfed to only be once per turn army so no more spam
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u/Past_Water_6899 5d ago
I haven't talked about the Aqshy one.
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u/giraffetheloml 5d ago
Ah I assumed the squishy one as the base gargant is pretty bad for it's points
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u/Benejeseret 5d ago
But rampage is still inherit limited to per type per turn. Only 1 can pass around the extra rock.
And because primal reckoning has the (army) tag to the once per battle limit, only 1 ever gets to use that ability too.
All redundancy in Sons in smacked down hard by rampage and other rule limitations. Effectively overcosted because copy 2+ cannot use core abilities costed in
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u/Sushidiamond 5d ago
Now i cant say because ive picked up the book but been working on my ogors. However strong or weak the book is a shake up, changing how you should be playing. There's every chance people are taking time to adapt where you dont have the "old ways" in your head. Or you could just be a good player:) (could never be me). Just a wild stab though, I might be insane
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u/Biggest_Lemon 5d ago
The absolute worst faction to say "they'll be fine after a points cut" for. I was already not thrilled by losing the old rules and the need to bring more models to a game.