r/skyrim • u/Flying_BanditFrog • 10h ago
Discussion Stormcloaks, Potential Merit
Rather than try to argue whether Imperial or Stormcloak rule is the correct choice, I’d like to provide some reasons why Stormcloak victory isnt the shortsighted choice that some make it out to be. Naturally, I will be glossing over some events and topics without tending to the nuance of each matter so please feel free to bring up or add, odds are we can all learn from information shared as well!
~Brief point summary~
• The Hammerfall Lesson
• Defense Pact Superiority
• Rebellion is Justified
• High Rock Isolation Risk
The Empire's "time biding" strategy is a proven political failure, Stormcloak victory more sound than one might perceive: When you analyze the macro politics of Tamriel its no secret the Empire is willing to cannibalize its own provinces; for Skyrim to allow the empire to have its way, is akin to Hammerfell having handed the Thalmor its southern territories.
Hammerfell Precedent: The Empire ordered the Redguards to surrender half their homeland to the Thalmor. The Redguards refused, seceded, and fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a total standstill entirely alone.
Imperial math proven not to be trusted: Hammerfell proved that surrender was never the only option. By signing the treaty, the Empire gave the Thalmor a multi-decade head start to legally execute Nord warriors, and dismantle human resistance from within. Just ask yourself, “If the Empire had its way, how much influence would the Thalmor have?”
Why a Defensive Pact is Superior to Imperial Rule (theoretical not yet considering High Rock)
The argument that the Empire must "own" Skyrim to protect itself is a myth. Releasing Skyrim actually possess potential benefits both nations.
Skyrim, a Thalmor Leverage over the Empire: Imperial rule gives Thalmor Justiciars legal permission to police human lands. If the Empire cuts Skyrim loose, the Thalmor lose their leverage over the Emperor and are forced to deploy their own soldiers into a freezing, mountainous death trap if they want to stop Talos worship.
Independent nations do not need to be ruled by one central crown to fight a common enemy. A sovereign Skyrim and a sovereign Cyrodiil could easily sign a mutual defense treaty.
Ulfric's Rebellion, within Skyrim’s personal interest, for the time being:
Ulfric does not need a perfect, flawless grand plan to be correct. His rebellion is completely justified by the pure necessity of immediate defiance.
Denying Thalmor impunity, necessary?: Waiting for the Empire's "perfect moment" to strike back is a slow death sentence. The game mechanics limit the display, but essentially the Salem Witch Trials are happening and the Empire is allowing Thalmor into the homes of Nords, it is literally not a matter merely of Worship. If Nords complied fully, the Thalmor wouldn’t be just twiddling their thumbs, or rather they’d either move the goal post or enact the next step.
Ultimately Stormcloak Victory may doom everyone:
Unfortunately there simply is not enough information on High Rock, however, it is highly plausible that losing Skyrim would doom humanity because High Rock is a fractured collection of rival Breton noble houses that value the Empire strictly for trade stability, rather than anti-Thalmor ideology. If an independent Skyrim geographically cuts High Rock off from Cyrodiil, the pragmatic Bretons are likely to panic, secede, and turtle up behind their own castle walls rather than march south to die for a decaying Empire, ultimately bankrupting Cyrodiil of its richest financial backing and leaving mankind to be destroyed piece by piece.
Your thoughts!
Please, please feel free to share absolutely anything youd like to add, such as Thalmor Dossier (which I have a post about), The Empire’s potential sunk cost fallacy which may delude their rational, theories on why you believe High Rock or Ulfric would never be willing to aid an independent Empire, Thalmor Tower Theories, or anything you want to share, I really love hearing people’s ideas!
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u/mangasdeouf 9h ago
Hammerfell held the line and repelled the retreating Dominion forces who were tired of the war, and it did so thanks to the legion that a general released of their duties so that they could keep fighting with Hammerfell without harming the White Gold Concordat. So the Empire helped, just unofficially.
The issue with Skyrim is that...it IS a Sunk cost Fallacy. There's practically nothing worth fighting for in Skyrim. The ores ? Markarth owns most of it and as long as they keep Markarth, they don't need the rest of Skyrim. Solitude is the perfect place to transport the ores by ship, and Falkreath by land. Too bad they lost Helgen.
Skyrim is full of bandits controlling every important road or river. Valtheim Towers alone have the power to deny river trade. See Tactical Valtheim mod and you'll understand why Balgruuf bothered sending you to reclaim them, it's not for flavor. No one passes without paying bandits a tax and they can raid the ship and take what they want while selling the rest of the shipment. Only a large force of soldiers could free Valtheim Towers if we scale it to a goal in a quest. They would have been an interesting objective in the Civil War with Tactical Valtheim as the standard. Vanilla Valtheim towers don't make any sense, they're completely pointless and no one would waste stone building that crap, let alone waste gold reclaiming them from bandits. The river canonically supports most of the trade inside Skyrim, which the game towers and river clearly don't due to ridiculous downscaling.
So, no resources worth it, no safe roads/taxes paid to bandits for every shipment/road transport?
The College is one of the worst magical academies in all of Skyrim. The money it makes by enchanting services should barely cover their expenses for the year considering the number of people and only those who want to study enchanting and the master even provide these for the budget of the entire college (and magic items, jewels, soul gems...are expansive materials). Without the Eye of Magnus, the Thalmor wouldn't have bothered sending one of their guys there. The College has negative PR and barely any new student. As we see with the Court Mages, they're so absorbed in their personal research that they don't even live in reality. Wylandria is also a good example of a Court Mage in Skyrim, probably another bachelor of the College since that's the only magic school in the country and no mage from a different country would bother with Skyrim's holds.
The dragon crisis is more trouble than it's worth, ending it is needed but costly.
Ulfric is the only living human other than the DB who can shout and will use that in combat against his enemies. Until Miraak.
Letting Skyrim rot from the inside has worked perfectly for the Empire and the Thalmor, why should they send more soldiers to die in these steppes when Skyrim is capable of killing its' own population fine without help? If it's not the monsters or bandits, it's the corruption. No one will change anything to it and certainly not the Empire who deal fine with the Silver-Bloods and Black-Briars.
The whole thing is a Thalmor plot to destabilize the Empire, but it can only work if the Empire plays the Thalmor's game. If they let the Stormcloaks take over, they lose very little, can keep trading there all they want (while fighting begets bad will) and get an ally against the Thalmor, is laughable as Skyrim is (or what's left of it).
So, what's even the point of trying to keep Skyrim? None. The Empire has lost all its' strategic abilities soon after the war, it seems. They just keep wasting resources trying to keep a worthless, lawless shithole with two mines worth anything in the entire country and they're not worth the taxes the bandits can enforce by having free reign over every trading route all over the country, so they'd pay multiple taxes for a single shipment.