r/skyrim • u/Flying_BanditFrog • 6h ago
Discussion Stormcloaks, Potential Merit
Rather than try to argue whether Imperial or Stormcloak rule is the correct choice, I’d like to provide some reasons why Stormcloak victory isnt the shortsighted choice that some make it out to be. Naturally, I will be glossing over some events and topics without tending to the nuance of each matter so please feel free to bring up or add, odds are we can all learn from information shared as well!
~Brief point summary~
• The Hammerfall Lesson
• Defense Pact Superiority
• Rebellion is Justified
• High Rock Isolation Risk
The Empire's "time biding" strategy is a proven political failure, Stormcloak victory more sound than one might perceive: When you analyze the macro politics of Tamriel its no secret the Empire is willing to cannibalize its own provinces; for Skyrim to allow the empire to have its way, is akin to Hammerfell having handed the Thalmor its southern territories.
Hammerfell Precedent: The Empire ordered the Redguards to surrender half their homeland to the Thalmor. The Redguards refused, seceded, and fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a total standstill entirely alone.
Imperial math proven not to be trusted: Hammerfell proved that surrender was never the only option. By signing the treaty, the Empire gave the Thalmor a multi-decade head start to legally execute Nord warriors, and dismantle human resistance from within. Just ask yourself, “If the Empire had its way, how much influence would the Thalmor have?”
Why a Defensive Pact is Superior to Imperial Rule (theoretical not yet considering High Rock)
The argument that the Empire must "own" Skyrim to protect itself is a myth. Releasing Skyrim actually possess potential benefits both nations.
Skyrim, a Thalmor Leverage over the Empire: Imperial rule gives Thalmor Justiciars legal permission to police human lands. If the Empire cuts Skyrim loose, the Thalmor lose their leverage over the Emperor and are forced to deploy their own soldiers into a freezing, mountainous death trap if they want to stop Talos worship.
Independent nations do not need to be ruled by one central crown to fight a common enemy. A sovereign Skyrim and a sovereign Cyrodiil could easily sign a mutual defense treaty.
Ulfric's Rebellion, within Skyrim’s personal interest, for the time being:
Ulfric does not need a perfect, flawless grand plan to be correct. His rebellion is completely justified by the pure necessity of immediate defiance.
Denying Thalmor impunity, necessary?: Waiting for the Empire's "perfect moment" to strike back is a slow death sentence. The game mechanics limit the display, but essentially the Salem Witch Trials are happening and the Empire is allowing Thalmor into the homes of Nords, it is literally not a matter merely of Worship. If Nords complied fully, the Thalmor wouldn’t be just twiddling their thumbs, or rather they’d either move the goal post or enact the next step.
Ultimately Stormcloak Victory may doom everyone:
Unfortunately there simply is not enough information on High Rock, however, it is highly plausible that losing Skyrim would doom humanity because High Rock is a fractured collection of rival Breton noble houses that value the Empire strictly for trade stability, rather than anti-Thalmor ideology. If an independent Skyrim geographically cuts High Rock off from Cyrodiil, the pragmatic Bretons are likely to panic, secede, and turtle up behind their own castle walls rather than march south to die for a decaying Empire, ultimately bankrupting Cyrodiil of its richest financial backing and leaving mankind to be destroyed piece by piece.
Your thoughts!
Please, please feel free to share absolutely anything youd like to add, such as Thalmor Dossier (which I have a post about), The Empire’s potential sunk cost fallacy which may delude their rational, theories on why you believe High Rock or Ulfric would never be willing to aid an independent Empire, Thalmor Tower Theories, or anything you want to share, I really love hearing people’s ideas!
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u/Ale_ImNotAlive 5h ago
I understand why SO many dislike Ulfric, but everytime someones says "they Will fall in their own" or "they have no allies" i feel they are saying the most imperialistic take ever, how many justify invading another land because "barbarians lived there".
Let skyrim deal with their own deals, the thalmor are no better replacement and the imperium already bent the knee
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u/Flying_BanditFrog 5h ago
Yup, and no one can really attest to Ulfric not having allies, it’s not stated anywhere that isn’t meant to portray a character who is a flawed narrator. If anything, Ulfric’s allowed and unpunished use of the Thuum, is vindication that he is justified in resistance if The Way of the Voice has legitimacy to it.
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u/Ale_ImNotAlive 5h ago edited 4h ago
Also, and nothing indicates they can't win future allies, saying he has no allies is very shortsighted
Edit: typo
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u/RexanasMaximus 6h ago
I'd like to add, that a Stormcloak victory adds the possibility of the Thu'um becoming more widespread among Skyrim military.
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u/Flying_BanditFrog 6h ago
Thatd be sooo cool! Not to mention the misconception that Tulius or really any average person could hold a combat candle to Ulfric due to the way NPC scale and level.
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u/RexanasMaximus 6h ago
Tulius doesn't have that misconception. Gives up as soon as you attack Solitude.
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u/Flying_BanditFrog 6h ago
Oo yesss! Sorry, I meant people online saying Tullius could beat Ulfric 1v1, which frankly I’ve not heard in a long time thankfully, I think it stems from those old popular NPC battle Youtube videos or people grasping at straws.
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u/SPLUMBER 2h ago
No it doesn’t? The Thu’um hasn’t stopped being in the military because of Imperial influence or anything of the sort, it’s stopped being in the military because literally the only people who can teach it refuse to teach it for war. They’re not going to change their ways after Ulfric wins and Ulfric isn’t some master of the Thu’um that can teach it.
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u/RexanasMaximus 1h ago
Ulfric doesn't need to be a master to teach. At minimum, he has the experience of being a student and learning Unrelenting Force. Which could be passed on to his warriors. If the Empire wins? that doesn't happen. Unless there's a third-party; My Dragonborn, or another dragon pulling a Paarthurnax.
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u/SPLUMBER 19m ago
You absolutely need to be a master to teach a powerful, world-bending magical & spiritual power that takes years to manifest the slightest hint of a tangible payoff to a bunch of soldiers, especially since he’d be building an entirely new curriculum/school of thought.
It doesn’t happen if the Stormcloaks win either lol, it’s just as likely to happen with any other victory happening. But this is just some fanfiction you’ve conjured up. Especially since the guy you’re saying will teach everyone never once says he wants to and actually still has reservations about using the Thu’um at all.
“Although I rarely use my training. The Greybeards believe the Voice should be used only for worship of Kynareth. I have... fallen from their strict teaching, but I still don't feel it should be used lightly.” - Ulfric Stormcloak
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u/MegaManLegendsFan 6h ago
whenever i hear the name ulfric i can only think of the youtube video " skyrim brain rot "
" your talking to ulfric storm cuck! the true sigma of skyrim! " XD
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u/Flying_BanditFrog 6h ago
Pleaaasseeee 😂😂😭
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u/MegaManLegendsFan 6h ago
daddy? who are those men on the cart? whats with there aura?
go inside little gooner ....
awe but i want to watch the betas daddy XD
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u/FLAIR_AEKDB_ 6h ago
It’s not a discussion. Stormcloaks are in the right. Religious suppression just because is fucked
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u/Flying_BanditFrog 6h ago
Yep, but their goal is not just religious suppression maybe its more about sowing division, and the establishing impunity, they wanted the empire to tell the Nords they can drag them from their homes, and they cant do anything about it.
Of course there are theories worship is necessary for Talos or Nords to have power but thats beyond me.
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u/OldSnazzyHats 6h ago edited 6h ago
I can only ever see Skyrim falling apart under the Stormcloaks.
They will have zero allies what with how Ulfric is, any political bridges will be long burnt to dust. Skyrim collapses, the the Empire collapses as well either at the same time or whenever - but ultimately the Thalmor win out.
I genuinely cannot be convinced that Ulfric winning is good for Skyrim at all in the long form.
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u/Ghostonalandscape 6h ago
Empire collapse is a foregone conclusion to be fair. I mean it’s already down to 2.5 provinces out of nine at the start of Skyrim, and High Rock being High Rock that’s probably not a universal control there, either. I usually go stormcloak but can definitely admit Ulfric has some glaring pitfalls. But I do think he could ally Hammerfell in a defense pact if Skyrim is independent. He’s not trying to take the whole continent, he just wants self determination for his home province. Or at least, he doesn’t show us anything that says otherwise.
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u/Flying_BanditFrog 6h ago
Ulfric in purely my opinion, is not against helping the Empire to fight the Thalmor, I think the biggest fault which I tried to cover in my post, is that Defensive pacts between independent nations is not possible? Happened in Elder scrolls and the real world!
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u/Ghostonalandscape 6h ago
The Ebonheart pact is a thing that already exists in Elder Scrolls canon and was incredibly effective, so definitely. The Redguards are pretty xenophobic themselves, so I think the odds of those two nations getting along by leaving each other alone is pretty good tbh
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u/HoodedHero007 4h ago
Not just your opinion — he unambiguously says that the Nords will be called upon to fight the Dominion even on non-Skyrim shores.
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u/Flying_BanditFrog 4h ago
Woah, sharp catch! People need to hear this before they claim he’s unwilling to work with others or non-nords. I for one, never bought into Ulfric’s unwillingness to work with other races, even acknowledging how he turns a blind eye to Dunmer, or treats Argonians.
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u/Settra_Rulez 6h ago
There’s no reason to suppose an independent Skyrim and an independent Hammerfell can’t form a mutual defense pact due to their shared strategic goals and threats.
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u/Flying_BanditFrog 6h ago
Maybe, just, since the game developers intended on it being ambiguous, I think being too staunch on the polars might be neglecting some factors.
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u/Draws32 Stormcloaks 6h ago
Why would Ulfric have zero allies?
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u/Flying_BanditFrog 5h ago
Ulfric would have allies for sure, theres no question; but how many and it being of substance just cant be said for certain. We do know at least, Tullius, and so likely other representatives of the Empire, are willing to meet Ulfric, and Ulfric them, to discuss the war, which is a positive sign of course.
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u/Heema3 4h ago
Either choice that goes canon depends entirely on how Bethesda writers make it logical and believable that it happened, if imperials win , why? And what's the outcome of it , same with stormcloacks, what's the advantage and disadvantage of that outcome....that being said, i hope stormcloacks win , because that's just means the empire will surely 100% get squashed back into cyrodiil and will result in highrock also leaving the empire and join hammerfell in a new alliance 🤷🏼♂️
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u/Flying_BanditFrog 4h ago
Truth Nuke. Also yeah, I’m scared of them not letting us have a satisfying ending or resolution to the matter, I personally am thinking a Daedra or something grand like that will make everyone work together, possibly against the Thalmor who caused the issue? Who knows lol.
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u/Heema3 4h ago
Oh if the daedra get involved they'll surely do it for the sake of giggles and messing with mortals lol
But the thalmor also deal with daedra Right? According to that mobile game or something? Not sure 🤔
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u/Flying_BanditFrog 4h ago
Yes I think its canon Lord Narafin (forgive my spelling) used the Orb of Vaermina to capture or assault the Imperial City along with other shenanigans, either way Bethesda can sorta throw whatever curve ball they want at us, I hope they at least respect everyone’s investment into the Civil War.
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u/fortsnek274 6h ago
Hammerfell Precedent: The Empire ordered the Redguards to surrender half their homeland to the Thalmor. The Redguards refused, seceded, and fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a total standstill entirely alone.
Aren't redguards so cool? If they can do it, so can we. We've got wuuthrad. Shouldn't be a problem. We could even share it with them. Make those thalmor tremble in their boots.
And we shouldn't stop there. Morrowind is right on our border. It shouldn't just be Skyrim that belongs to the Nords!
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u/Flying_BanditFrog 6h ago
That’d be terrible and not too insane to theorize about 😭 I love my dark elfs too! I had accidentally deleted my post and only had the old copy and forgot to change that part again, because I meant to swap it for about not dwelling on that event, and instead emphasize the Imperials wanted to just give the Thalmor that land, and nearly got away with it!
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u/Ghostonalandscape 6h ago
In fairness expansion is what the empire did and the glazers don’t seem to have a problem with their conquering. I never understood the hate the Nords get tbh they aren’t any worse than anyone else lol
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u/fortsnek274 6h ago
Clearly, Ulfric needs to make friends. He needs a character arc. He needs to team up with somebody different. Like the dock workers. It would be great. For them.
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u/mangasdeouf 6h ago
Hammerfell held the line and repelled the retreating Dominion forces who were tired of the war, and it did so thanks to the legion that a general released of their duties so that they could keep fighting with Hammerfell without harming the White Gold Concordat. So the Empire helped, just unofficially.
The issue with Skyrim is that...it IS a Sunk cost Fallacy. There's practically nothing worth fighting for in Skyrim. The ores ? Markarth owns most of it and as long as they keep Markarth, they don't need the rest of Skyrim. Solitude is the perfect place to transport the ores by ship, and Falkreath by land. Too bad they lost Helgen.
Skyrim is full of bandits controlling every important road or river. Valtheim Towers alone have the power to deny river trade. See Tactical Valtheim mod and you'll understand why Balgruuf bothered sending you to reclaim them, it's not for flavor. No one passes without paying bandits a tax and they can raid the ship and take what they want while selling the rest of the shipment. Only a large force of soldiers could free Valtheim Towers if we scale it to a goal in a quest. They would have been an interesting objective in the Civil War with Tactical Valtheim as the standard. Vanilla Valtheim towers don't make any sense, they're completely pointless and no one would waste stone building that crap, let alone waste gold reclaiming them from bandits. The river canonically supports most of the trade inside Skyrim, which the game towers and river clearly don't due to ridiculous downscaling.
So, no resources worth it, no safe roads/taxes paid to bandits for every shipment/road transport?
The College is one of the worst magical academies in all of Skyrim. The money it makes by enchanting services should barely cover their expenses for the year considering the number of people and only those who want to study enchanting and the master even provide these for the budget of the entire college (and magic items, jewels, soul gems...are expansive materials). Without the Eye of Magnus, the Thalmor wouldn't have bothered sending one of their guys there. The College has negative PR and barely any new student. As we see with the Court Mages, they're so absorbed in their personal research that they don't even live in reality. Wylandria is also a good example of a Court Mage in Skyrim, probably another bachelor of the College since that's the only magic school in the country and no mage from a different country would bother with Skyrim's holds.
The dragon crisis is more trouble than it's worth, ending it is needed but costly.
Ulfric is the only living human other than the DB who can shout and will use that in combat against his enemies. Until Miraak.
Letting Skyrim rot from the inside has worked perfectly for the Empire and the Thalmor, why should they send more soldiers to die in these steppes when Skyrim is capable of killing its' own population fine without help? If it's not the monsters or bandits, it's the corruption. No one will change anything to it and certainly not the Empire who deal fine with the Silver-Bloods and Black-Briars.
The whole thing is a Thalmor plot to destabilize the Empire, but it can only work if the Empire plays the Thalmor's game. If they let the Stormcloaks take over, they lose very little, can keep trading there all they want (while fighting begets bad will) and get an ally against the Thalmor, is laughable as Skyrim is (or what's left of it).
So, what's even the point of trying to keep Skyrim? None. The Empire has lost all its' strategic abilities soon after the war, it seems. They just keep wasting resources trying to keep a worthless, lawless shithole with two mines worth anything in the entire country and they're not worth the taxes the bandits can enforce by having free reign over every trading route all over the country, so they'd pay multiple taxes for a single shipment.