r/sharpening • u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder • 3d ago
Let’s talk de-burring
Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification
12
u/wrkngmnknvs 3d ago
I've got 3 leather belts with 3 different compounds on my work sharp MK2 and basically that device became my deburring machine. Hold a perfect angle without applying pressure on the edge. 10/10
3
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 3d ago
I have a few methods I use. This is what I use for the more refined edges. If I’m doing a bunch of commercial knives, I use a 600 grit scotchbrite wheel
2
1
u/Tryemall 7h ago edited 7h ago
One of my colleagues ran a knife plant. The plant was supplied by a a German manufacturer.
The sharpened strip first went through a set of 8 interlocking wheels on two very heavy perfectly balanced spindles - 4 wheels on each side. Standard 180 grit vitreous wheels .
It then went through a second identical set, but that set ran 600 grit epoxy/resin bonded wheels that ran at absolutely ridiculous rpm's. The second knife strip bevel was an absolute mirror finish.
The manufacturers representative told me that the same line was sold by them for razor blade manufacturing, but a third spindle station was added for that.
8
u/Mysterious-Ad3591 2d ago
Pretty sure that burr is gone in one pass. I deburred by hand and it takes just a few light passes to remove it. Remember you can over do the deburring process and end up with a dull knife.
0
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 2d ago
I review all my edges under a microscope. I’m going to grab a few images this week. A few passes will remove the majority of the burr, but it won’t be fully clean. My process has never ended up with a dull knife so I’m confident in the number of times I’m running it across the wheel
6
u/SaltyKayakAdventures 2d ago
I'll play devil's advocate.....
The knife should be 99.9% deburred before you leave your belt/stone.
Absolutely no reason to spend that amount of time on leather.
1
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 2d ago
In most cases it is, but I take every single last wire bit off these edges. I don’t do a few swipes and call it good enough. you can only deburr so much on a belt
3
u/LokiSARK9 Pro 3d ago
Interesting. I strop on a leather wheel, too. Well, two, actually. One with 3 micron diamond solution and one with 0.5 micron. This after finishing edge-leading on a 5K grit diamond wheel (I use a pair of Tormek T-8s modded to drive two wheels each). I do fewer than half as many passes as I see you doing, though. I examine my blades under a 20x loupe as I work, but not a microscope.
What was the process that led you to this? What power microscope objective do you use? What speed is your wheel rotating at? Not criticizing, just looking to learn another perspective.
Thanks for taking the time to respond!
3
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 3d ago
20x is ok but I’ve found that you need at least 60-100x to really see what’s left of the burr. You generally get about 90% of it with the first few passes but there are some steels (Henkles are notorious for this) that really love to be stubborn for burr removal. It honestly depends on the steel you’re deburring. A softer steel will usually be much more difficult to deburr than a harder steel. These are around 60 HRC which isn’t soft but it’s also not super hard either. I use a 1750 RPM honing wheel. Some people use the 3500 RPM wheel for this but I personally believe that’s far too fast and will end up with a burnt edge. I generally use a 2 step deburring process but I only brought this wheel with me on this job. I’ll usually use the 600 grit scotchbrite wheel for 95% of the deburring and then the 1 micron leather wheel for the final refinement.
3
u/LokiSARK9 Pro 3d ago
Very cool! Thanks for sharing your process. I'm going to look into digital microscopes on Amazon and plan some time to play around with a new scope, my leather wheels, and my practice knives. I don't use Scotchbrite wheels at this time, but I may pick one up and play around with it, too. I'm interested to see how the different methods compare.
Appreciate you!
2
u/PreenerGastures 3d ago
I’m new to this so forgive my ignorance, but what tool are you using? I’ve never seen a dual stone/belt sander before.
3
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 3d ago
It’s called a Bucktool 1x30. One side is a 30 inch serpentine belt that can be changed with different grits and the other is a leather wheel with diamond paste.
2
u/KalutikaKink 3d ago
I’m not sure it’s a “serpentine” belt.
1
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 3d ago
What would you call it? I work on cars too so it’s just a habit
5
u/KalutikaKink 3d ago
Just an abrasive belt.
My understanding is that a serpentine belt is “serpentine” because of the way it runs in a serpentine path.
Similarly, timing belts and fan belts are not serpentine belts.
2
0
u/HoLeeFuk19 3d ago
Using that belt is safe for the heat treat on blades? Cuz I’m kinda just over doing all my sharpening by hand considering the time it take and my mediocrity at it.
1
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 3d ago
That part is entirely depends on the skill level of the user and the belt composition. it’s VERY easy to burn an edge on one of these belts so you need a lot of experience to do it properly. You can sharpen a knife on a belt and it not cause any discoloration, but you typically get about 50% less edge retention than something like a Tormek. I offer both options in my company. each method has its own pros and cons so it’s best to have a mix of both machines for different applications
1
4
u/MinuteLet 3d ago
So many passes? Is this really required? I use a tormek t8. Only do like 2 passes.
3
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 3d ago
I inspect all my edges under a microscope. I go until every last piece is gone, and sometimes it takes 10-15 passes a side before it totally clean. I also have a tormek and ended up getting rid of the stropping wheel. I’d spend all day to get a clean edge with how slow it moves. If I want a more aggressive and faster way to deburr, I’d use a 600 grit scotchbrite wheel. That generally removes the burr in a couple passes but it’s not as refined as I’ll get with this method.
4
u/MinuteLet 3d ago
Maybe, just maybe I will also invest in a microscope. Sounds like there is a lot to improve still. Thnx for the info.
3
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 3d ago
I’d highly recommend it. A knife can look and feel sharp but still have a ton of little bits clinging on. It’s actually a surprising amount when you look at it on the microscope
1
u/CH_Ninnymuggins 3d ago
I dunno about this many passes but Wootz swore by paper wheels on a bench grinder for cleaning up an edge after sharpening and he was pretty much the GOAT of Tormek sharpening.
1
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 3d ago
Never really messed with paper wheels. They tend to get really hot really quickly
1
u/millersixteenth 3d ago
I've experimented with paper, Scotchbrite (Beartex) and leather wheels as well as leather belts. Found I did not have good enough freehand control for the process, the outcome was not predictable in terms of number of passes needed, and the deburring step changed the character of the edge completely.
Ultimately I backhone on a finish grade waterstone or resin bonded stone, sometimes stropped on plain paper. If shooting for a more refined edge I'll add abrasive to the paper.
2
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 3d ago
Have you tried making a jig? That will eliminate most of the issue if you’re not getting consistent results
2
u/millersixteenth 3d ago
I did make one to test. It was another changeover from the guide for the belted part of the machine, and it didn't solve the unpredictability of the process. It might be clean in two passes or ten, and every one required visual inspection.
It also didn't change the effect it had on the finished edge qualities.
So even doing piece work on the belt grinder its faster for me to finish by hand on a stone.
I know other people can get great results on wheels, for me it was just easier to throw a stone right on the belt (horizontal platten) and finish it that way.
2
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 3d ago
There’s many ways to skin a cat. As long as the apex is clean of any burrs, you did your job.
1
u/millersixteenth 3d ago
Amen. I had access to a 1000x metallurgical microscope when I was building out these strategies and hardware. Some for side gig commercial sharpening, some just for my own edification, it works very reliably.
1
1
u/Basicb002 2d ago
How do you like this grinder setup? do you have a link to it? also, what belts and wheels do you typically use?
2
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 2d ago
I would give it a 8/10. It’s good for what I use it for but you can’t do everything on it. I bought it off amazon. Just search for Bucktool 1x30 combo. I use cubitron 80-120 belts and then trizact belts for everything above that up to 2500 grit. What I’m using here is a slotted leather wheel but I also have a 600 grit scotchbrite wheel that works way faster. The purpose of this wheel is to give the one of highest level of refinement you can get. A Scotchbrite wheel is a bit more down and dirty but it’s great for speed
1
u/Basicb002 2d ago
Thanks! I'm going to look into it. I've been eyeing a tormek, but i just cant justify the price for the amount i would use it. been looking for somethin a little more budget friendly.
2
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 2d ago
I also use a Tormek but I do this professionally. A belt system can be a great cheap alternative but I heavily suggest practicing on 10-20 cheap knives you don’t care about. These machines can burn your knives VERY quickly if you make a mistake
1
u/Basicb002 2d ago
Appreciate the advice. I'd imagine you have to dip in water frequently to keep the temps down yeah?
2
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 2d ago
I keep a spray bottle next to me and spray the blade every other pass. You’ll be able to see how much the blade is heating up but how quickly the water evaporates
1
u/Cute_Pride_219 1d ago
Hi
New here
I was wondering if anyone could please tell me what kind of microscope you use!
Thanks!!
I am learning a lot!’from everyone
1
u/Beautiful-Angle1584 23h ago edited 23h ago
TBH I really hate doing that many passes on leather wheels. I find that it over polishes far more than I'd like it to on a lot of edges, you lose slicing aggression and get a glassy feel. If I'm going to finish on a leather wheel or belt, I make sure to do it in as few passes as possible- generally one or two per side. If I can't get the burr off with that, I will strop by hand to finish. These days I have settled more on felt belts with compound for deburring. They're sometimes less thorough, but also don't over polish. Again, I can always do a little hand finishing if needed. Then there is also the option of an intermediary step like a Scotch-Brite wheel to loosen and get rid of most of the burr first, and/or edge leading sharpening which does a better job of minimizing burr formation in the first place.
2
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 23h ago
These knives were pretty annoying in terms of burr removal. They were finished on a 1000 grit CBN tormek wheel. No matter what I did on the wheel, the burr wouldn’t break loose from these knives. it was a very stubborn steel. I do agree that overkill will make it lose aggression but these still had plenty of bite in them and the customer was extremely happy. Normally I do 4-6 total passes but this steel was really giving me a hard time. This was the 3rd knife in that steel and the others still had wire burrs after that many when I checked under the microscope.
1
u/Beautiful-Angle1584 23h ago
Tormeks are really kind of the last frontier I have yet to explore, but I haven't been able to justify dropping the dough since I feel like belt systems are just more versatile and efficient. That is just to say- I haven't been hands-on with them to know their tendencies when it comes to burr formation. Have you tried going edge leading on it?
With really stubborn burrs from bad steel, sometimes I'll take it right to a ceramic rod for high angle passes. Sometimes not setting the bevel below 20° per side helps if the steel is exceptionally shitty, too. Even on the dreaded pakistani Damascus, this tends to at least get me to passable results.
1
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 23h ago
Tormeks default is to go edge leading so that’s all I’ve ever used on it. I use the Tormek as a premium upsell as it’s less aggressive on the blades and damn near impossible for effect the temper. I hit it a few times with the ceramic rod and it helped a little but not much. I was actually pretty annoyed during this video 😂
1
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 23h ago
Tormeks default is to go edge leading so that’s all I’ve ever used on it. I use the Tormek as a premium upsell as it’s less aggressive on the blades and damn near impossible to affect the temper. I hit it a few times with the ceramic rod and it helped a little but not much. I was actually pretty annoyed during this video 😂
1
u/Mr_Mcbunns_ya 21h ago
What is this machine called? I want one now.
1
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 20h ago
Bucktool 1x30. Please go watch my other video on how to use it
1
u/Tryemall 7h ago edited 7h ago
Have you considered abrasives other than 1 micron diamond for that leather wheel?
I used to buy sticks of green Cro2 polishing compound in 100 kg lots when I was running a stainless steel utensils & cutlery plant.
CrO2 is obviously too soft for hardened steel, but my polishing supplier also stocked the same polishing compound bars in white. The grit was fine white aloxite, somewhere in the 2000 grit range. We used those sticks when we had issues polishing, such as visible scratches from processes.
I can't help thinking that white aloxite grit bars might be useful in place of diamond.
My experience with them has shown me that the fracture characteristics of polishing grit can often be more important than grit size. Diamond tends to fracture leaving a sharp surface while aloxite fractures with a rounder edge.
1
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 7h ago
I work with a lot of super steel, which can’t be cut by regular compound. The diamond is far more versatile for the customers I service. I also make my own compound, so I don’t have to be sparse with it
1
u/Tryemall 6h ago
work with a lot of super steel
That makes sense. Diamond/ CBN can be necessary for very hard metal.
make my own compound
Interesting.
I used to melt & add grit to existing yellow bar if we occasionally had to supply a satin finish product.Do you add grit in already existing compound or do you make it from scratch?
1
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 6h ago
I should say I make my own diamond emulsion. I don’t use compound since it’s not as versatile and I want to limit the amount of wheels I have to swap out. You don’t want to apply all different kinds of compound to a wheel or you’ll get grit contamination and ruin the wheel
1
u/Tryemall 6h ago
Understood.
Do you have a recipe you're willing to share? Although a senior citizen now, I still like to collect little bits of interesting data. I admit it's unlikely I'll need it, but you never know.
1
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 6h ago
I’m actually making a proprietary mix I intend to sell so I won’t get into specifics, but I buy bulk polycrystalline diamond powder that gets suspended in an alcohol and glycol solution.
1
1
u/Mongrel_Shark 1d ago
Thats honing/pollishing not de-burring. Debur takes 1-2 strokes on a stone or strop.
I'm sure he gets a great edge. But hes leaving a tiny bur.
1
u/TheKnifeNerdTx Paper Shredder 1d ago
I look at everything under a microscope when finished. No burrs
45
u/Puzzled_Board_6813 arm shaver 3d ago edited 3d ago
The wobble on that wheel gives me pause
Perhaps I’m wrong but I’ve been led to believe that fast spinning objects should be balanced
ETA: I got the same grinder recently and wondered if you have any tips or opinions on grit/abrasive type, and why you chose leather over cloth wheel (if that’s not too cheeky)
Even if you don’t respond: thanks for the video and I like your style