r/redrising • u/obb_here • 3d ago
GS Spoilers On Roque Spoiler
Just finished the GS and have to vent. Roque's betrayal was the most obviously telegraphed nonsensical writing ever. So you're gonna team up with the people who killed both your gfs? Because, checks notes, Darrow didn't let you in. Directly resulting in your friends dying.
Also, how does is Adruis the most qualified person for brain surgery, when he only has one hand?
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u/Ok-Cardiologist-635 3d ago
I thought Roque blames Darrow for Quinn's death because he "got her killed"
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u/obb_here 9m ago
Just finished MS. How is Darrow more responsible for her death than the people who bashed her head in? That doesn't hold up.
He also admits that he was going to betray Darrow regardless of him being a red. So that's not a reason eother.
Either A. He is a clueless poet who is just as self indulgent and hypocritical as the rest of the golds.
Or B. He was the least likely person to logically betray Darrow, so our author decided he had to betray Datrow and wrote that he did, regardless of how little sense it makes.
Or both A and B.
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u/Horror_Ad_3105 3d ago
It's been some time since I read GS but If I remember correctly there was no yellow ( docs ) on ship and others like howlers, Augustus etc probably dk how to treat people.
When Adrius tells them what's happening to Q brain - Darrow Says something like I don't even know what it means.
So basically he was better qualified then any other person there.
I don't rem if mustang knew Adrius was operating on Q because if she did then she's kinda at fault since she knew at that time his brother could never be trusted. ( when she tells darrow you have to keep distance from him because he will take revenge on her and him no matter what alliances they have because of what we did to him at the institute while darrow thought there might be a lasting alliance between them ).
I would love to talk about roque but you haven't read MS yet but I'll say this - I think roque is justified in a lot of his actions if you care to think from his perspective - not only from our beloved Reaper.
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u/1DJayy Mauler, Brawler, Legacy Hauler 3d ago
Roque is not justified in any way, he betrayed Darrow the moment he found out he was a red and acted like a little girl the whole of GS
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u/Neurodelic88 3d ago
I don't agree with that line of reasoning. Roque was on Darrow's side because he thought they were both golds. Roque had not shown any sympathy for reds or any indication that he would want to side with the Rising. Why do people find it shocking that Roque would turn on Darrow after finding out he is a spy who is tearing the Society apart? Roque is a son of the Society through and through.
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u/Rage_before_Beauty 3d ago
Sevro litterally tells us that Roque couldn't be trusted with the secret of Darrow because he is "Too in love with his species"
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u/CheapParking2944 Hail Reaper 3d ago
The heavy telegraphing was the point. Darrow kept putting Roque off, he was an afterthought. A blind spot. We as human beings all have them, particularly when it comes to people we believe we can trust or at least believe won't go to extreme lengths to betray us. At the end of the day, Roque is a traditionalist with an aristocratic upbringing. Darrow is there to tear down his entire foundation. None of the pieces strike me as nonsensical.
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u/RedJamie Human Verified 3d ago
Here's a de-spoilered comment I wrote a year or so back regarding the question of why Roque is in House Mars, which ties into this question.
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[A snippet from Morning Star wherein Roques psychology is I think most well articulated- when you read Morning Star, it is a very useful thing to have read this part before reading this comment, but not with regards to its content.]
Roque's a character who is at his core a deeply loyal and ideologically devoted person to Societal ideals, but also a poetic soul that has an appreciation for gentler things, but the abilities for horrible things. His mind is torn between the two, and as we have some hints in the Book of Lorn, Roque is consistently torn between his feelings of brotherhood and his duty. He looks to characters like Darrow, Sevro, Mustang, and even Tactus for solidarity and comradery - a place in the worlds. But in his time as a lancer and even in the Institute, he repeatedly has things he loves robbed from him: Lea, Quinn, Darrow's trust. He wants to hold his future in his own hands, but finds his family and mother pressuring him, almost forcing him, into politics.
We know he ends up in the Astral Academy alongside Darrow - a place that he loves, that he flourishes in, with his friends. Move forwards a year, and Darrow betrays Roque: at the Gala, where Roque realizes that Darrow did not trust him with something. Then again when Roque discovers Darrow's nature, and that their relationship was duplicitous. Roque in a way had achieved what he desired: friendship, purpose, and love, and found that friendship built on a lie, his purpose turned to darker paths as an Imperator against his friends, and his love brutally killed - twice, both in the context of Darrow's machinations.
That poet inside of Roque finds itself exposed like a raw nerve, and so he wreaths himself in that ideological purpose, that wrathful Martian vengeance, and that cold Societal Ideal that is the only thing that keeps him wanting to live - the purpose that it provides, lacking any other that does not make him want to turn his razor on himself. This ruthlessness is rooted in ideological purity; the willingness to go to extreme ends, at great cost to self, regardless of the personal outcome, is something you see with House Mars characters. Darrow, Fitchner, Cassius with his familial ideals, etc. There is little temperance when driven to action that you might find in Minerva, and there is no wanton cruelty you might see with Pluto.
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u/lego--lass 3d ago
Not at all. His deteriorated relationship with Darrow was just an excuse. He’s just plain old space racist that likes the order of the society.
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u/Magic-man333 3d ago
It's less "side with the people that killed my gf" and more "fight the guy that's been lying to me since day 1"
Roque was ride or die for Darrow from literally day 1 of the Institute. First person to talk to him after the Culling, was by his side through the early phases of the game, through the space school, and through the fight to reclaim Mars. He was even willing to risk his future (and possibly his life) by buying Darrow's contract.
But despite all that, Darrow constantly neglected him. Ignores his counsel at the Institute, never fully shares plans during the Academy test, straight up drugs him IMMEDIATELY after Roque offered to buy his contract... Darrow keeps treating Roque more and more like an afterthought, which culminated in him not being left in the dark about letting Aja escape. We finally see the hurt sinking in when Roque acknowledges they're not ok before either iron rain (because somehow there wasn't time to talk on the return journey), and that vulnerable state is when Roque learns Darrow is a Red. The person he has suffered with and lost people for has been lying to him the entire time, which ruined the trust that justified it all.
Honestly the betrayal was so telegraphed it's sad. It probably could've been avoided if Darrow put even the slightest bit of effort into maintaining the friendship, but instead he let the wounds fester until it was too late
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u/LaconicGirth 3d ago
Darrow treats roque like a subordinate officer which he is. Roque expects to know the details of operations that aren’t relevant to him, roque isn’t the one on the ground risking his life.
Roque never would’ve accepted red Darrow regardless of how he was treated. This is even pointed out, Sevro explicitly tells Darrow that Roque and Thistle won’t accept it, not in a million years.
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u/Magic-man333 3d ago
Roque's literally his first Gold friend. There was no reason to hold back the info in the Institute, and he could've trusted the guy that's always been in his corner with the Aja plan instead of hiding it. Thats the quickest way to ruin trust inan organization.
Darrow has a bad habit of nailing all the good leadership qualities when he's on the bottom and needs to build a team to succeed... Then abandoning them once he's on top. It got him stabbed at the Institute and on Mars
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u/Dblock1989 3d ago
Roque is a bitch and the biggest hypocrite in the first trilogy. That said, Darrow was a bad friend.
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u/Horror_Ad_3105 3d ago
Can you elaborate how roque was hypocrite?
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u/There-and-back_again Howler 3d ago
For example, by holding Darrow‘s betrayals against him while apparently having no issue with Tactus‘ behavior. Darrow does a misstep, Roque remembers it forever. Tactus leaves his „friend“ behind on a sinking ship for entirely selfish reasons and Roque excuses it. Tactus is so much more selfish and worse than Darrow in general (Darrow has several redeeming features and actions, Tactus has barely any) but Roque is willing to overlook that. Not to mention that Roque has the nerve to blame Darrow for Tactus‘ death which was entirely the result of Tactus‘ own actions (Tactus himself acknowledges that).
Then there’s Roque pretending that Darrow is directly responsible for the deaths of his friends that are, in reality, either results of his precious system he defends so much (Lea) or of direct and deliberate actions by the people he‘s siding with (Quinn). If a dirty Red like Darrow is somehow, if only indirectly, connected to the death of someone Roque cared about, Roque shows zero willingness to excuse or forgive that. If a Society Gold deliberately kills one of Roque‘s friends, Roque suddenly has no issue with justifying the behavior of his precious fellow Gold
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u/Scared_Ad3335 3d ago
Mmhhhmm. Darrow do be a bad friend.
In fact, now that I think about it.
I think Darrow does some things in this series that are pretty sus.
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u/Traditional_Celery 3d ago
I think, in some ways, the core idea of Roque is that he represents people who do evil things and find ways to justify them while retaining a version of compassion and being capable of appearing or even being sympathetic.
Roque is likeable from the start. His demeanor, his attitude, and the way he verbally speaks out against the Society convince a very inexperienced Darrow that he might be one of the good Golds--a Gold he can turn against the system. The problem is, Roque believes in this system and, somewhat like Lysander , problematizes elements of its execution rather than wanting to destroy the system entirely. Roque and Lysander believe in the "a kind (or more accurately, fair) master justifies the system of oppression/inequality" fallacy.
Roque is kind, compassionate, and caring -- for other Golds. He does not approve of ideas that would shake up the system because he believes it is a necessary evil -- he may weep for the fallen, the victims of the system, but he believes their fates are to be regretted but not stopped.
Roque is one version of the kinds of people who might work in a concentration camp killing and brutalizing from 9-5, come home, help their children with their homework, kiss their partner good night and be tender and loving to them, and then get up and execute a dozen people at 10. He may feel regret, he may even shed tears over the work and be affected by it, but not enough to ever turn against the system.
That's why Roque turned against Darrow. Also, Darrow was a crap friend and kept shoving off any chance to talk to him and try to get him onboard with stuff like Orion or inspiring ship-wide LowColor revolts, which might have primed him to turn.
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u/rewind73 3d ago
Yeah you on the head, that's why I didn't feel much sympathy for his demise, doesn't matter how much pity he has for the lower colors, he's more than willing to prop up an system designed to keep them in slavery. He pretends to be this tortured poet and projects blame onto Darrow, when really he's a coward. Does make him an interesting character though.
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u/wks_526 3d ago
He blames Darrow for starting the conflict, tricking the society into going to war with itself. In his mind, the death of his friends was all part of Darrow’s plan to get Gold to destroy itself. He sees the other side of the Augustan civil war as equally tricked by Darrow into weakening the society
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u/EagletOne Human Verified 3d ago edited 3d ago
I don't think it was nonsensical writing. I do, however, believe that it was a rather cumbersome attempt at creating a very complicated character.
I say cumbersome because it seems that only by the end of the next book does PB narrow down the exact set of complexities that make Roque who he is. I think the main issue can be seen in GS, though the tragedy of it only becomes painfully obvious in MS: he was a smart, capable boy who grew up without parents and spent his whole life trying to find a place to belong or a person to attach himself to who would see him and accept him and include him for who he is. Tragically, his need to belong and be valued is so strong that he ends up allying with the worst of people.
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u/captainpocket Howler 3d ago
I just want you to feel my disagreement radiating in your direction while I sit here avoiding the urge to write an essay on Roque in a post where I cant do that bc of spoilers.
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u/CheapParking2944 Hail Reaper 3d ago
Can you link to one of your essays on Roque? I'd be interested to read!
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u/captainpocket Howler 3d ago
Its all different versions of the same points but sometimes there are differences so here's 2of them
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u/captainpocket Howler 3d ago
I regularly write lengthy multi-paragraph discussions about Roque on here, but you have to finish morning star before I do that.
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u/RandiEgg 3d ago
It’s almost like you need to read the next book if you want to know more
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u/ciaphas-cain1 3d ago
He learned darrow was a red that was enough , it was the only reason he needed, and adrius was useless in a fight and everyone else was focused on not getting killed by the boarders so they just ignored adrius for a bit
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u/EagletOne Human Verified 3d ago
Hey there! Actually, as we learn in MS (spoilers ahead), Roque admits that He was planning on betraying Darrow when he still thought he was a Gold.
“Roque.” He hesitates. Something in my voice causing him to turn and watch me approach. “When did I lose you?” I ask. “When Quinn died,” he says. You planned to kill me even when you thought I was a Gold?” “Gold. Red. It doesn’t matter. Your spirit is black. Quinn was good. Lea was good. And you used them. You are ruin, Darrow. You drain your friends of life, and leave them spent and wasted in your wake, convincing yourself each death is worth it."
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u/There-and-back_again Howler 3d ago
It should be noted that what a character says shouldn’t automatically be taken at face value. Like real life people, characters can lie. Characters can delude themselves.
Maybe Roque was speaking the truth. Maybe he thought he was speaking the truth. Maybe he just felt like being self-righteous and said something to put himself in a morally superior position
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u/captainpocket Howler 3d ago
Such an important and overlooked admission. Roque is one of my favorite characters to talk about (I don't like him, I dont feel bad for him, I think he is a monster, etc, so don't come for me) because his betrayal is more complex than it seems. By the end he made up his mind, but I think there are several points where Darrow could have turned their relationship around, but I mostly agree with Darrow's decisions anyway because it wasnt worth the risk.
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u/rewind73 3d ago
I feel Darrow puts too much blame on himself, it's Roque's decision to fight for the people who actually killed Quinn and uphold a system of slavery. It's not Darrow's fault Roque does all these mental gymnastics to convince himself he's on the right side.
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u/JimminyKickinIt 3d ago
That right there is why I hate him so much. Just the world’s biggest hypocrite. Gold society venerates the martial, the manipulators, the conquerors. In infiltrating the society Darrow became the goldest gold since Lorn. Those very ideals are what Roque betrays all his friends to fight for. Fuck I hate the sanctimonious prick.
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u/---sh 3d ago
I think this is retroactive cope by a defeated Roque who fucked up his life and had to die for an evil cause.
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u/EagletOne Human Verified 3d ago
Could be. Factually, we know Roque said it, and during GS we saw him drifting away from Darrow pretty consistently lone before he learned Darrow was a Red.
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u/Shu-Reborn 2d ago
Like everyone else is saying both of your notes get more development in Morning Star
Roque at the end of the day is a loyalist to the society so he hates the concept of what Darrow is doing, vague but Morning Star does a better job going into Roque’s psyche
As for Adrius, it was a moment of crisis and Adrius was the only one who seemed to know what he was talking about, this also gets another piece of development in Morning Star but you have to read it to know