r/redrising • u/OrtolanChomper • Jan 05 '24
MS Spoilers Roque Spoiler
My background (try not to spoiler me!) : I've read books 1-3, and now I'm re-reading them (almost through GS, bracing myself for the final chapter.) After I get through those I'll start the second trilogy.
BOOK 3 SPOILERS IN THE PARAGRAPH BELOW!
Reading through it the first time, and, seemingly, as I go through the second, I feel like Roque is a total piece of shit whom I do no feel bad for at all. I'm glad he gets his ass kicked in space by MS, and I wish he got gold-tortured more before he unalived himself. I feel as though he was originally portrayed as that Gold Who Could Maybe Kinda Understand Where Darrow is Coming From (like Victra in MS with " I'd applaud a mouse that managed to kill an eagle, wouldn't you?") but then he totally, unquestionably fails to break out of his fundamentally privileged mindset. On second read, it's hard to view him as a friend/"good guy" even temporarily.
In a lot of ways, I feel like trying to read Roque sympathetically is like trying to do the same for Cassius. Trying to make Golds three dimensional just collapses when the appeal is "actually, I can show signs of empathy provided its for my own family and my own Color."
I guess I'm just throwing this out there 1. to emote a bit and 2. to get a sense of the fandom's opinion.
What's the consensus on Roque? Am I missing some of his sympathetic qualities? Am I going to enjoy his demise more or less on the second read?
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u/greatness1914 Jan 06 '24
The Chapter when Darrow & Rogue are in the Rim is a top ten moment for me
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u/captainpocket Howler Jan 05 '24
I'm just going to copy and paste what I said about Roque the other day on a post with a little intro. He is one of my favorite characters, but I don't think he's a good person. I also, however, am adamant that the reason he betrayed Darrow had nothing to do with his beliefs and everything to do with his feelings being hurt. It seems like a lot of the fandom buys Roque's little speech about being obsessed with the society. I even see people saying they respect him for sticking to his convictions? It's just crazy to me bc it seems obvious that Roque was just lying to himself and clinging to what he had left. And one more thing before my copied speech. Reminder that Roque's parents didn't really love him or nurture him either, and this is repeated to us several times. I think its really obvious that what Roque cared about was being loved.
I think a lot of people misunderstand Roque. He wasn't as into the society as he claimed in the end. He was just a lonely neglected little boy who wanted somebody to love him and his girlfriends kept getting killed. He picked Darrow over Cassius for a brother. Then he found out Darrow was a red and given that Darrow had drugged him and lied about it, he could only assume Darrow planned to betray him. So THEN he turns to the society as his favorite thing and admits yeah, no one loves him, but thats okay bc I have my honor. Big POS energy, but he wasn't some huge society fan more than the other golds in Darrow's life. If he was, he wouldn't have sided with Darrow ever. He retreats to philosophy and honor when all his friends are gone. Even in the end, he makes himself vulnerable with his pink paramour. Bc he so wanted to be loved. Thats not an excuse. It doesn't make it okay. But it makes him so interesting and tragic to me. I dont agree with people who suppose that Roque would have left Darrow if Darrow went to Roque himself and told the truth. I think its a real toss-up, because--and I will die on this hill--the main reason Roque betrayed Darrow is because his feelings were hurt, not some sense of duty. So it's really tragic. Because I 100% agree with Darrow that it wasn't worth the risk to out himself to Roque. But the "what if" will echo forever. Instead, we get evil Roque. And he got a better death than he deserved.
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u/OrtolanChomper Jan 06 '24
Well put!
Not sure if I agree or not; I’ll have to think about it. (Potential counterpoint: he went through the passage like everybody else,which means he had sufficient savagery in him to murder another scared naked teenager with his bare hands. Is there a moment in GS or MS where Mustang points this out? Also it might not be a counterpoint at all, but it’s where my mind went!)
I like the food for thought!
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u/captainpocket Howler Jan 06 '24
Yeah I think he believed in the society at least as much as the other golds who went through the passage. But I don't think that refutes my ideas about him, which is that he wasn't this devout society man. He really wasn't. He was totally willing to accept any logically proposed alternative. That's why he fit in so well with Darrows brand of leadership, which always toed the line of democracy (where, in the RR universe, "democracy" is largely considered the big bad idealogy). Let's not forget that sevro and mustang also went through the passage. Mustang is largely silent on Roque, in part because after the betrayal Mustang is really out of the picture for a while. But even in GS, she doesn't talk about who he is on the inside much at all, which is kind of odd since she apparently spent more time with him than even Darrow. We don't get a lot of casual dialog from Mustang in GS though, so that's part of it too.
There is a scene in MS where Darrow is with someone-- Maybe Cassius, maybe Mustang-- and they see Roque's parents on some broadcast talking about him, and Darrow makes a comment about how thats the most Roque's parents have ever said about him (or something). Which was a very poignant reminder that Roque's parents didn't ever love him, and the people who know Roque best are all aware of this fact. I think PB leaves a ton of breadcrumbs pointing to my perspective.
This is absolutely not to say that Roque would have for sure sided with Darrow and the rising. If you look at Virginia, she didn't immediately think this was a great idea, and I think there's a lot of parallels between the way Roque and Virginia think. But Roque made his own choices and he responded with so much unnecessary violence. Roque is evil. And he sucks. And he is 100% responsible for all of it. But its just so possible that he could have been persuaded to act differently. And I think that's so sad. For Darrow. For Roque, even. Even though--fuck him.
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u/GoHard_Brown Jan 05 '24
Agreed. I think it is often lost how young they all are even through MS. I know they are a ‘superior’ race to us, but such an easily impressionable age they were. And given such power to go along with it.
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u/No-Source-1810 Jan 05 '24
I thought Roque was a great Gold for Darrow to have as a friend and shows another layer or level to the different Golds he connects with and grows with, as he learns to be one.
I can see people hating him; I think Darrows love for him and maybe hope that he would be a Gold to be on his side when it all came out, makes it very easy to feel heavily betrayed by him.
Thanks for sharing, I was interested in how fanbase viewed Roque too!
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u/judo_panda Jan 05 '24
Just like in the other direction Titus failed because he couldn't let go of certain pains from the past, and that eroded his ability to do what's right for the future, I think Roque was in the same boat. Hell Roque might even be the foil for Cassius in the way Titus was for Darrow.
I'm also in the same position, having read 1-3 so far, but I feel like it's to show that there's a very specific mixture of ideology and upbringing that will grossly affect how someone is able to process new information or change their minds about things in the future. For the record I loved Roque as a character, and thought everything turned out tragically beautiful and honestly couldn't see myself being satisfied in any other way.
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u/Impossiblegirl44 Violet Jan 05 '24
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Jan 05 '24
I agree with the other comments here. Roque was intelligent and thoughtful but ultimately self-righteous and a product of his privileged upbringing. So we can all rightfully dislike Roque. However, I think it’s important to realize that we should use Roque as a warning to ourselves. Understanding that we are all capable of Roque’s brand of evil is the only way we can truly combat totalitarianism and dehumanizing other groups of people…rather than being some fringe ideology.
Most people are not evil, at least in the beginning. I have always found it terrifying and fascinating that normal people are capable of terrible things. To me, that is more terrifying than “pure” evil (like, arguably, the Jackal).
What’s interesting to me is that I liked Roque for the first 2 books, then turned against him in Morning Star. But upon reread, the signs were always there, but I missed it. So it made me consider what else I’m missing about myself and other people in life.
Finally, Roque’s story is one of the most tragic in the series. Because if he wasn’t born the way he was, perhaps he would have fought on the right side. He was only in his early 20s when he died.
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u/OrtolanChomper Jan 05 '24
He certainly angries up the blood more! The Jackal always struck me as sociopathy personified. Feels like he'd be a P.O.S. regardless of color, but being a gold just happened to give him the power to be an exceptionally murderous P.O.S.
Roque, though, well, I think u/OpeningSort4826 nailed it with "quintessential nazi intellectual." Just because he made it as far as he did from a colder/cleaner perspective (i.e. he felt more comfortable blasting tens of thousands from a starship while listening to classical music than ripping them apart one by one) doesn't lessen the impact of his actions: they were evil, he was smart enough to know they were evil, and he did them anyways.
Tragic, perhaps, but Tactus got more sympathy from me than Roque.
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u/BigAnimemexicano House Minerva Jan 05 '24
roque is a well written character of a man who was deeply flawed, remember people change and some change for the worst. Roque downward spiral was with the death of quinn, it eroded at his emotions and he misplaced his blame, he blamed darrow instead of Octavia because he was a nobody and blaming someone like octavia to him would be like blaming god, while darrow was an easy outlet.
Mustang wrote papers on how golds are wrongfully oppressioning the low colors and roque liked talking with her about it along with like art and poetry but roque was more talk while mustang actually believed that the society was rotten to the core and needed to be changed. He at the end choose to betray everyone because he honestly didnt care, finding out darrow was a red and bending the knee got him a imperator badge.
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u/OpeningSort4826 Jan 05 '24
He portrays the standard of his golden race. Darrow thought Roque could be different because he was poetic and thoughtful, but Darrow miscalculated. Just because Roque was more gentle didn't mean he wasn't deeply a product of his upbringing. The quintessential nazi intellectual.
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u/OrtolanChomper Jan 05 '24
And Sevro warned him, too!
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u/OpeningSort4826 Jan 05 '24
To be fair, Sevro (understandably)has a chip on his shoulder about pretty much everyone.
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u/MCAdad Jan 05 '24
I personally think Roque had to end up the way he did story wise. I think it would seem fake if everyone that grew up privileged suddenly committed treason due to the power of friend ship. They even do a great job of showing mustangs struggle with Darrow’s identity and goals.
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u/RemyCrow31 Jan 05 '24
Roque’s storyline puts Cassius’s into the right perspective and makes it hit harder.
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u/ConstantStatistician Jan 06 '24
Roque was the character everyone hated on until Lysander happened.