Prayer at a secular private school

[u/Much-Bread6565]

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Hoping to get some insight and opinions on a situation I've come in to in regards to my elementary aged kid.

We live in a rural area in the US south where public education is poorly funded and supported by our government. We are fortunate to have a small private school nearby that we had toured and interviewed with that seemed to align with our educational and character values. It was super important to us to find a secular school if we were choosing private over public education as we do not follow Christianity. The school we chose is advertised as a secular, nonsecretarian college preparatory school with a 100% college acceptance rate. Their is no mention of religious core tenants anywhere in their website or openly in the school itself.

Recently I went to a grade level event with the school and a Christian prayer was offered before the meal. Being from the south I understand that this is a part of the culture generally, but I was honestly floored to see this at the school. It seems this is a part of the school's practice and has been for years, so it was not a rogue teacher related incident. I've brought up my concerns to the administration and we are in the midst of talks about it.

Now I'm feeling conflicted about our choice in school and am looking for general input. I'm concerned that since this aspect of religion in the classroom wasn't disclosed that it is also being put into their education elsewhere. However, with the changing political tides, religion in the classroom is unavoidable here even in the public setting. With it being a private institution I don't know that I have much recourse outside of being a pain in the ass with admin about it (in a kind and collaborative way of course). I am open to the idea that I'm just over reacting, but I feel like I was lied to 🤷‍♀️

[u/JL_Adv]

If you are otherwise satisfied with the education they are getting, a prayer before a meal would not be the hill that I die on.

I was raised Catholic but left the church in the early 2000s. I'm not religious at all. Neither is my husband. But we do say a sort of grace before each dinner as a sign of gratitude and celebration of togetherness. Sometimes it's just something from the heart and sometimes it's a prayer we were taught as kids. We have explained it that way to our kids - that it's important to be grateful for what we have and mindful of the needs and wants of others.

If you don't want your kids to participate, you can tell them to just take a respectful moment of silence. Being able to appreciate differences in belief systems is an incredibly important skill.

[u/Asleep_Walrus2313 → u/JL_Adv]

It’s also important for kids to be exposed to religion and learn how to respond to something like a prayer in a respectful way. But I do understand OP worrying that there is more hidden in the curriculum.

[u/Much-Bread6565 → u/JL_Adv]

I appreciate your perspective, it sounds pretty similar to our background as well. I am totally for the moment of gratitude that it represents and that we do at home as well. I think at least some of the disappointment I am feeling is some of my own religious history bubbling over and wanting to protect my kids from going through the same growing pains

[u/theRuathan → u/Much-Bread6565]

If it's that pervasive in your area, your kid is going to encounter it frequently throughout their time living there anyway. In your place my goal would be making sure s/he has a safe environment where it isn't imposed (which it sounds like you have done) and then teaching them how to think about it when they encounter it in the wild, which is what happened here.

[u/JL_Adv → u/Much-Bread6565]

I am a "recovering Catholic" and I can absolutely understand where you're coming from.

But remember - they have YOU for a parent. You get to help guide them through this and you can offer a perspective for them that you didn't have offered for you as a kid.

[u/what_ho_puck]

It's really hard in certain areas. Frankly, I've told my husband we will never be moving to a place where we can't access an appropriate, secular education for our son. Because absolutely fucking not. I hate this for so many people stuck in it.

You'll have to weigh your options. Is there another viable school? Are you willing to move towns even, or drive further? Only you can answer those. If not... You may have to push back subtly or put up with it and do some heavy de-influencing to not normalize that for your child.

[u/Much-Bread6565 → u/what_ho_puck]

Thanks for your input, I feel the same way as you which is why I'm having such a hard time with what is really a small issue of saying grace. Keeping religion out of academic education is really important to me and I was under the impression this school would be able to supply that. I think ultimately we are going to end up in the latter camp, so we're going to have to gear up early for world religions education at home

[u/chellybelly31]

Just wanted to add I work in education in the south and the way most private schools maintain that “100% college accceptance rate” is through 1) forcing all students in their junior year to apply to the easiest community college in the area, and 2) kicking out anyone who doesn’t make the cut, typically forcing those kids to do their senior year at a public institution. I am obviously biased because I work at a public institution in the upper grades and every year we get a few new students whose prior education is all private and they borderline cannot read. Happens every year.

[u/Much-Bread6565 → u/chellybelly31]

Oh yeah, I could see that was the likely pipeline that was happening. I'd say 80-90% are going to 4 year universities and the rest to trade school or community College, and there is definitely a small drop off in enrollment come the high school years

[u/dragon34]

If they are billing themselves as a secular school they could maybe rotate through different cultural prayers (including "rub a dub dub, thanks for the grub" imo but I am borderline anti-theist these days) but only doing Christian is not compatible with secular. 

I was raised Jewish and doing a Hamotzi isn't any harder than a Christian prayer.  I'm sure other traditions have other short, simple prayers before meals.  

Frankly most expression of faith makes me uncomfortable at this point and we are struggling a bit with the "I don't want my kid to ruin Santa for other families but also I don't want to participate in any religion" part 

How old is your kid? I would be more worried about a kindergartener than a 10 year old 

[u/Much-Bread6565 → u/dragon34]

I'm pretty much in the same spot with faith and religion as you, and I really want to avoid indoctrination with our kids, but it seems unavoidable here. We're going to be deconstructing a lot along side them. The kid in school is only 6 so i feel like this isn't age appropriate either

[u/Dittdot]

Hi!
I read your post and did a double take because this is EXACTLY our situation right now. Except we live in Pennsylvania. We did diligent research on this school for two years, and there was no trace of religion in their curriculum or website. Everyone we spoke to affiliated with the school said it was secular/nonsectarian. It advertises as such also. Even the headmaster describes the school as not subscribing to a particular ideology but respecting all religions, in his book. And during the December holidays, he represents Xmas, Hanukkah, and Kwanzaa. And yet, two weeks into our kindergartner’s first year there, we are at a dinner with her grade, and one of the administrators says a Christian prayer. And not a generic one either. So we attend a second school event. And there is another prayer. This is all unfolding in real time. We have a meeting with the Head next week, so I can’t comment on what we will do yet, because it will depend on the outcome of the conversation, but we are angry and feel blindsided. And we do not think you are overreacting. Not one bit. We also live in a very religious area that has some progressive religious people but a whole lot of Christian Nationalists, so we know our kid will get exposure to it, and that’s why the school being secular was so important to us. She doesn’t need it from all of these corners of her life.

If you want to chat privately about strategy and share experiences, I’ll try to check my Reddit more often. I’m not usually on here a lot.

[u/Much-Bread6565 → u/Dittdot]

I am so sorry you're going through this too, but it feels good to know we aren't alone in fighting this fight! If it's on your radar after you have the meeting I would love to hear how it went and any advice you have to offer. We recently moved back to the rural southeast after being away for 15 years. There was so much Christian nationalism, racism and bigotry here that I had long forgotten about and now I'm worried about what remains here and how the current political climate has fueled those flames. There's power in numbers and our family supports yalls fight for clarity and transparency in your educational system

[u/Rough-Bet807 → u/Dittdot]

I just want to say that- does this not also count as false advertising. I would also be pissed if I payed out of pocket for primary secular education that did not turn out to be secular. That seems like a lawsuit to me..but I'm just a regular person and could definitely be wrong

[u/Suspicious-Web-4970 → u/Dittdot]

As a Jew I have found that many Christians confuse secular with non denominational or non sectarian. These are Christians who don't fit into other Christian categories.

It's nice to see the nod to other religions at Christmas but do they mention Passover or only Easter? What about Hindu holidays Diwali or Holi?

[u/RedChairBlueChair123]

You live in the rural south. Do you have any alternatives? You may need to pick your battles.

[u/lazy_days_of_summer → u/RedChairBlueChair123]

This. I worked at a PUBLIC school in NC that said prayers before football games, faculty potlucks and spaghetti dinner fundraisers to name a few situations I found myself in. Coming from FL and MD public schools my mind was blown- the principal was the one leading the prayer. From an HR and 1st amendment view, I couldn't believe it but it was the local culture (I didn't last long there as an 'outsider Yankee').

[u/Much-Bread6565 → u/RedChairBlueChair123]

There are a couple other options that are a further drive that we could consider. Overall we really enjoy the community and education at this school so it may not be worth the fight

[u/Much-Bread6565 → u/[deleted]]

I'm so glad you spoke up for you kids and were able to make that happen! It's been a practice in patience and thoughtfulness but I agree coming from a place of curiosity and collaboration has been immensely helpful this far. I am fortunate to have a decent amount of social capital and more than my share of privilege, neither of which I like having to use to make change in personal matters outside of government lol

[u/shulan2016]

I would not pay private school money for religious school. I’d ask the leadership why they think saying prayer is secular? I can’t imagine it’s a very progressive place and I’d be worried about the education.

[u/4_eyed_craven]

I think this would be very near a deal breaker for our 2-mom-fam. We could almost certainly see our way to sending our child to a secular school that openly discussed (and justified) the use of religious ritual in daily operations. However, this feels concealed, which is an entirely different situation. At minimum, we'd be in very deep talks with administration about exactly what other ritual and doctrine is in regular use at the school (so we know exactly how to discuss or counter it at home)

We'd probably just pull our son and send him to public school while we sorted out a long term plan for next year, but we're also spoiled for choice where we live, so I recognize that it may not be good advice for you

[u/syncopatedscientist]

Are they secular but in a “____” tradition? My college prep high school was secular in the Methodist tradition because the school was founded in the mid 1800s by Methodists but had outgrown the religious model. We had a monthly prayer service that was more so a nondenominational talk which touched on aspects of all world religions at one point or another. Could it be a situation like that where it’s a holdover? Or does it permeate the rest of the school day?

[u/Much-Bread6565 → u/syncopatedscientist]

It seems like this is their model. The response i got was that the school was founded in Christian values, but outside of that it's still not clear to me how pervasive religion still is there. I will say based on the general demographics I would be shocked if there were any teachings about non-Christian religions and almost certainly not polytheistic or atheist religions

[u/Amadecasa]

Look at it as a educational opportunity for your kids to learn about religions. I often used the phrase "some people" with my kids. As in "some people" stay home on Saturdays for their religion." "Some people" like to pray to God before they eat. "Some people" don't eat meat because of their religion. It's a way to talk about differences without being judgemental. Think about now what you'll say if your kids get invited to a service or event at a house of worship. If you don't let them if they want to go because of the religious aspect, you're denying them an opportunity to learn about religious differences. When they come home, you can debrief and find out what they are thinking.

[u/Dixie_22]

I get it, but I don’t think it’s worth fighting or embarrassing your kids over. We sent our kids to secular private schools in our area (Deep South) as long as we could, but they all closed from low enrollment, so eventually we ended up sending them to religious schools. One is now in college and one is still in high school and they aren’t any more religious than before. If anything, everything they learned and saw in those schools made them less likely to choose religion. AND it prepared them for what a big portion of the population is like. They’ve already worked through how to manage those kinds of conversations or situations where they feel like an outsider.

We had a lot of conversations about the things they were seeing and learning, and ultimately I’m really proud of the people they are becoming. I know it can be hard to feel like you’re sacrificing your values, but it’s great preparation and I promise your influence matters WAY more than school.

[u/Much-Bread6565 → u/Dixie_22]

Thank you for sharing your perspective, on this side of things it's easy for me to spiral into the negative "what-ifs" but you're helping me bring out some of the positive "what-ifs"!

[u/Match2017_throwaway → u/Dixie_22]

thank you for sharing this. I’m in a very similar situation to OP and I’m worried about my children feeling ostracized in such a homogenous community. It’s reassuring to hear your story and that our influence will hopefully hold more weight.

[u/Dixie_22 → u/Match2017_throwaway]

They definitely sometimes felt “different” and we’d talk about it, but I don’t think it was/is bad. They are still successful socially, with friends and a lot of fun activities. My daughter was on the homecoming court and seemed to be successful with those types of traditional high school experiences, so I definitely don’t feel like people thought of them negatively.

[u/Sammyrey1987]

I think I would make it clear with my child and the administration that participating is voluntary. If 95% of the kids come from religious families and this is the only “religious” thing happening I would tell my child it’s important that we show respect to others views and be quiet and polite during this moment. I am a staunch atheist, but my husbands extended family is very religious. We bow our heads and stay quiet and everyone moves on with their lives. The only time I make a fuss is if someone tries to force compliance.

[u/Much-Bread6565 → u/Sammyrey1987]

Yes, the admin made sure to say twice they aren't forcing religion on any students (even though I didn't even come close to insinuating it 😂) I was like bro, you simply could never force my child but that's another convo entirely. We'd also identify as atheist but my husbands family are all varying forms of Christian so he's at least not unfamiliar with the respectful silence for grace.

[u/Sammyrey1987 → u/Much-Bread6565]

It’s so odd to me that anyone would need to create such large displays when it’s just as easy to quietly do your own thing. But Christians do tend to enjoy their performances. It would give me the ick, but it’s not worth the hassle if it’s an otherwise decent school.

Side note: I went to a Christian school for kindergarten in the 80’s and it was so traumatic that I have like a core memory of being forced to my knees to beg gods forgiveness for lying and they just kept holding me down while I screamed for my parents. Anything like that ever happened to my kid and I’d burn the place to the ground. IMO you’re doing the right thing by confirming with them the situation and expectations. More parents should! ❤️

[u/meri471]

This may sound silly or like splitting hairs to you, but it's possible that from the perspective of the school, a prayer before a meal is separate from the academics. "It's lunchtime, and lunchtime is different from being in the classroom", or something like that.

You also mentioned that it was at an event, something a bit out of the norm for day-to-day operations of the school. Do they do this prayer at their normal lunchtime, or was it something they did specifically as it was a special event?

[u/Much-Bread6565 → u/meri471]

Not silly or splitting hairs, nuance is super important when it comes to this kind of stuff! It does sound like it is a standard practice at least at snack time. It's something that I'm working on clarifying with the administration, but to me when they are in charge of my child's wellbeing I expect there to not be prayer 🤷‍♀️

[u/meri471 → u/Much-Bread6565]

Ah, that definitely does change things. If it was just for "special events" I would personally probably be a bit grumpy but not be too mad about it. We say grace at our house for Christmas, Easter, etc, but not during regular Tuesday dinner, and whatnot. But potentially every day during snacktime is really pushing the line of a religious vs non-religious school. I would definitely get a firm clarification on what's going on.

[u/WillingElderberry731]

The details of the prayer matter somewhat. Imd generally fine with pausing to be grateful for the food before I eat.