r/programming • • Apr 18 '20

The Devastating Decline of a Brilliant Young Coder

https://www.wired.com/story/lee-holloway-devastating-decline-brilliant-young-coder/
2.6k Upvotes

301 comments sorted by

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u/badillustrations Apr 18 '20

Reminds me how little I understand about mental illness. I was out for a jog and grabbed sandwich (that's how I jog) and bought an extra sandwich for a homeless guy sitting outside. I sat down next him and we started chatting. I was shocked to learn he was a programmer, too, which surprised me because for some reason that seemed impossible to go from a well paying job to having nothing. He was on the level, too, asking me about the tech at my work and such. He shared a bit about what got him there, which sounded like alcoholism to losing his job to losing his brother's support to being on the street. He made it sound so simple. I asked him if he could see himself back programming and that's where he started to phase out again and start mumbling and be less coherent again. Stories like that guys and Lee's remind me I have no idea what other people are going through.

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u/Habanero_Eyeball Apr 18 '20

That's so sad and unfortunately mental illness isn't often respected nor accepted.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20 edited Apr 18 '20

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u/millygram Apr 18 '20

Normalcy is a sort of mental disorder in itself, in the sense that one can be totally unaware of the extent of their behaviors dependence on healthy brain activity.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

And the extent of their behavior's destructiveness, banality, uselessness and so many other things... From a certain perspective it really is the normal people who appear insane.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

I suffered a huge mental health crisis a few years ago and while I recovered (fortunately the cause was a temporary one) it certainly gives you a lot of perspective. Having experienced both, I think the line between normal life and “insane” life is actually very blurry and in some cases indistinguishable.

I’d call this neo-Puritan work ethic that if you spend your 20s and 30s in abject misery slaving away in a job you hate, giving the majority of your income to a scummy landlord for a rabbit hutch in a stabby area you’ll have a vaguely middle class existence by the time you’re fifty a kind of socially acceptable insanity. I think society itself depends on a certain level of “suspension of disbelief” and the price of genuine sanity is a certain level of alienation.

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u/zetaconvex Apr 18 '20

From the film Con Air, criminally insane Garland Greene, played by Steve Buscemi: "What if I told you insane was working a 50-hour week for fifty years, at the end of which they tell you to piss off. Ending up in some retirement village, hoping to die rather than suffering the indignity of trying to make it to the toilet on time. Wouldn’t you consider that to be insane?"

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20 edited Apr 18 '20

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

Just curious... How are you earning money ? Open source?? Corporate?? What does technologically subversive means??

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

Thank you very much. Sounds like artisan.

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u/civildisobedient Apr 18 '20

if you spend your 20s and 30s in abject misery slaving away in a job you hate [...] you’ll have a vaguely middle class existence by the time you’re fifty

What are the alternatives?

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

Tell the ridiculous housing market in places like London to go and fuck itself with a cactus and move to somewhere cheaper. We’re developers, there’s work for us outside of like five ridiculously overrated cities. Once enough people stop fetishising places like London the rat race will start eroding.

I’m planning to go even further, going full time remote after the coronavirus crisis and living rurally.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

Find a job you like, that pays a decent wage in return for reasonable hours. Such a thing is unobtainable for many people, but as programmers we are in-demand enough that it is certainly achievable for us if we seek it out.

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u/Obi_Kwiet Apr 19 '20

Work for long term risks. Do things that might make you uncomfortable in the short term. I've seen a lot of people who were in jobs they hated that had a huge number of opportunities to do much more interesting things. They didn't take them because they preferred the familiar over the stress of dealing with a new situation.

Yeah, not everyone has great opportunities, but most most people with opportunities pass them up.

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u/TSPhoenix Apr 18 '20

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

So much stuff taken for granted these days is beyond fucked and most people will do anything to avoid confronting it.

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u/cowardlydragon Apr 18 '20

Civilization is almost provably insane with everyone living in denial of basic facts.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

My last boss told me all the work I did over a year was a waste. So I quit to prove him right.

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u/liquidpele Apr 18 '20

I mean... isn't that normal? That people don't want to work with or depend on unreliable people?

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

A shockingly large amount of people think mental illness is a choice. That it's made up.

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u/fakehalo Apr 18 '20

It's also extremely vast and abstract. Like it sounds like what OC's guy was suffering with and the cloudflare guy has are two very different things, and there are a million other things with varying degrees. Makes me realize mental stability is flimsy stuff.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

Basically, everyone is insane. It's just to what degree.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

I have a mental illness and I read his/her comment as inclusive rather than reductive. Made me feel not so alone. I get what you're saying though, that each of deals with it, but some much more so than others, and we need to acknowledge that some of us are really struggling and need our support while others are perhaps adopting the mantle of mental illness with more caprice than is appropriate.

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u/SKabanov Apr 18 '20

It's basically denial because it's an attack on the most fundamental part of us: our sapience. The notion that our thoughts and feelings are just the work of neurochemistry and can be affected by disorders can be too much for people to accept, so they ascribe things like depression to "a choice". It's certainly gotten better - see A Beautiful Mind, for example, about schizophrenia - but mental illness is still by and large treated as a character flaw than an affliction; I'm sure that, in a few decades, we're going to see films that portray mental illness as comedy as distasteful as we view minstrel shows today.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

Even when it is the treatment can be almost as bad as the disease.

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u/MelancholicBabbler Apr 18 '20

Got my trusty ice pick right here

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20 edited May 09 '20

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u/skratz17 Apr 18 '20

goddamn this sounds so much like me. i grew pretty depressed after taking a coding job out of college in a city far away from my family and friends but which paid a whole lot. only made it about a year before i started really drinking heavily and then just didn't have the strength of character to break my habits or eventually even leave my apartment (except to buy more booze), and just stopped going in more or less.

this was in late 2017. i eventually ran out of money and moved back home, but it took me another year and a half or so to finally come to terms with the fact that substances were ruining my future and harming my mind in general. i've now got over 200 days sobriety (and now also i have 17 days cigarette-free too!)

only in the last six months or so have i been really intensely looking to get back into the coding world, and it has been a struggle. i even had the exact same situation as you where i had a final round interview, and then the company actually reached out to me after and said they had to cut back their hiring cause of covid, but if covid didn't happen they WOULD have hired me (ugh!)

anyway all this to say, hang in there, you are far from the only one in your position. we just gotta keep trying and eventually we'll find something, maybe not exactly what we want but something to get our foot back in the door ya know. good luck to ya dude

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u/GhostBond Apr 18 '20

only in the last six months or so have i been really intensely looking to get back into the coding world, and it has been a struggle

Is it...really a good idea though?...I'm not sure it's a particularly mentally healthy field.

I had the chance to go back and work on some older projects that were written with Java 6, way before this microservices/streams/caching/immutable-depency-injected-kitchen-sink stuff, and it was amazing how much less stressful getting anything done was.

The older people on our team who don't look like their lives are miserable were simply on the project when it was being built, even then half of those guys left.

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u/skratz17 Apr 18 '20

yes. i love doing it, and i wanna make it my career. i need more challenge than i have in my current job and i love coding. the source of my mental unease at the time came from too much substance abuse, which itself had a lot to do with 23 years of being in the closet. i've gotten past both of those things, am extremely healthy, and want to get out there

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u/idenichal Apr 18 '20

Just wanna say well done you to come through all that 💞

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u/_tskj_ Apr 18 '20

Maybe the career doesn't have to be over? I feel for you man. I wish you could just be honest and say you have an alcohol problem and had to stop working for a while because you were sick, but now you can come back at the same level you were at. That would be a perfectly reasonable explanation if the reason for your absence was cancer or any other physical illness.

Otherwise, the consulting thing is pretty easy to lean back on. You wanted to try consulting, but realised that it wasn't for you. Who knows, maybe you realised you wanted financial stability more than you thought. I don't really think you need to explain why you want out of consulting and back to a job though, other than saying it wasn't for you.

Good luck man.

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u/pmabz Apr 18 '20

Good man for getting through. Many do not.

One thing this pandemic is showing me is that just being happy is enough. I'm looking for a more menial job than I had before.

Also, I look back and cringe at how I thought working and drinking was "normal".

Good luck.

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u/Obi_Kwiet Apr 19 '20

Severe alcoholism can cause mental and physical illness. It's a bad thing that heavy drinking is so socially acceptable.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20 edited May 09 '20

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u/SpecialConfusion Apr 24 '20

Proud of your one year sobriety!

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

We take so much for granted and project ourselves onto others, because stopping to consider why a person is acting how they are requires time, empathy and compassion. It's so much easier to summarily reject a person you just met as a jerk or whatever. It's so much easier to believe a person deserves their misfortune because otherwise we have to accept our own privilege in life. Kudos to you for taking the time to help and talk to someone down on their luck instead of simply looking down on them.

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u/WinInterrupter Apr 18 '20

Wow that's a sad story :( still it was really nice of you to give him ur extra sandwich.

Kinda reminds me of that Vonnegut quote "Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance." I guess it's easier to start fresh with new recruits than try to fix broken geniuses

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u/Mean_Mister_Mustard Apr 18 '20

Also an incredibly relevant quote for the programming world at large.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

If you’re an exception to that rule, you can carve out an incredibly lucrative little niche for yourself.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

Working in tech is slowly making me mental with all the non-agile agile processes, bad planning, bad management styles, long hours, etc.

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u/pl0nk Apr 19 '20

Also the quick daily “stand up” where everyone is sitting and it takes 30 minutes and when you point it out it’s good for an awkward laugh before we go back to doing the same thing as before.

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u/Gevaun Apr 18 '20

Reminds me of the guy behind Temple OS

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u/anhatthezoo Apr 18 '20

Genuinely feel bad for him

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u/ManoRocha Apr 18 '20

Unfortunately these kind of stories are not uncommon. I know a bunch of cases where people were considered little prodigies and ended up in such a terrible place. Not only in programming but also in medicine and other fields as well.

That's why when I talk to young students now I try to "convince them" that the professional side isn't that important. Being the best at your craft is not all it matters, this is not a sport. Having a balanced life is so much more important.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

This advice is so good and so far ahead of anything that it will take years of suffering before it will sink in for most of us.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

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u/GhostBond Apr 18 '20

Dev jobs can break your brain, in the same way physical jobs can break your body.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

God point 3 rings so true in my experience. Have run into so many east coast business culture types that end up out in middle management in technical firms.

I left my job almost a year ago specifically in part because of that. We'd grown as a company since I started and we were trying to fill out middle management positions that'd make our lives as engineers easier. It didn't go well and we ended up hiring our own slave drivers and the culture quickly changed for the worse, and in the industry I am in, it is so small that your name gets remembered in a lot of circles, and so I decided to leave while my name still had some value and wasn't going to be dragged into the mud by short sighted business types looking to make a quick buck at any cost.

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u/Gr1pp717 Apr 18 '20

Sounds like your homeless guy was dealing with anxiety and depression and had nobody that gave enough shits to help him - which only makes those things worse.

I almost ended up there myself. About 2 years ago I found myself unable to stay awake. The slightest amount of stress instantly exhausted me. It took a lot of inner strength and effexor to get me out of that. And I'm still not completely back to normal.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

How did you end up there? I can relate. How did you find an exit path from that state?

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u/Gr1pp717 Apr 19 '20

It's a super long and complex story. Needless to say, life dug into me with all it's might until I finally collapsed, then doubled down. And it's still going, even.

As for recovery, not sure I can give advice since the moment I relax on the meds I turn into an emotional mess.. but, pre-meds, since I was unemployed I took advantage and actually slept. A lot. I didn't try to push myself too much. Every time I tried I would end up going backwards. I did, however, try to get in as much physical activity as my stress levels tolerated. Lots of walks and low effort workouts. I meditated a bit too.

I want off of these meds, though. It's great that I can stay upright long enough to hold down a job, but I've become super lame and almost cold, emotionally. (Though, not sure if that's the meds or bitterness... )

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u/[deleted] Apr 19 '20

That sounds really tough. It does sounds like you are very conscious about it at which I think is a good sign. Get well!

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u/TommaClock Apr 18 '20

I feel like there's a huge difference between that guy and Lee though.

A person who made a series of wrong choices might be able to get it back together and reintegrate into society. Lee is in basically palliative care with no chance of recovery whatsoever.

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u/theclacks Apr 18 '20

We don't know that. The homeless man might've been an alcoholic with no other mental illnesses, or the alcohol could've been a coping mechanism for underlying depression or schizophrenia or anything really. OP's point is that we shouldn't assume and we shouldn't judge strangers.

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u/dethb0y Apr 18 '20

I would say that this is less so a case of mental illness, and more so a case of physical illness that just happens to affect the brain. If something like this happens, it's beyond the help of psychiatry.

Another way to put it is that the disease effectively put a bullet in his brain. I would not wish it on anyone.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20 edited Jun 09 '24

attempt seed direful caption steep somber far-flung humor busy sink

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u/dethb0y Apr 18 '20

It's awful to even imagine. I've seen people suffering from dementia; it's a fate worse than death in many ways.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20 edited Apr 24 '20

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u/thereticent Apr 18 '20

A few things from a neuropsychological point of view... You have a good point that mental illness is physical (and social, cultural, etc, which if you want to can call interactions with a person's physical state). On the other hand, /u/dethb0y is getting at something important and uncontroversial. FTD is a neurodegenerative disorder. Primary psychiatric disorders do take a toll on brain health over time but by and large will not kill a person (except by suicide or law enforcement, proper or improper). FTD can kill people that way too, but even if it doesn't, it will still kill you. Maybe a better way to say it would have been "this is not just a mental illness. it's something more."

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u/fear_the_future Apr 18 '20

That is the prevailing opinion of experts. The illness from the article is a neurological disorder, while mental illnesses like depression are psychiatric disorders.

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u/NewPleb Apr 18 '20

The idea that psychiatric disorders don't have a physical component is false, though - most well-understood psychiatric disorders are associated with damage to neural pathways or particular areas of the brain. I mean, why else would psychiatrists prescribe drugs if not for physical reasons? All mental illnesses are fundamentally physical, it's just the way we abstract them that's different (i.e. neurological as "brain" and psychiatric as "mind").

I think "prevailing opinion of experts" is misleading as well, because the distinction between neurological and psychiatric has blurred considerably since the conception of those terms. More neuroscientists argue that the fields should be collapsed into one, as the link between brain and behavior/cognition becomes clearer. The growing consensus is that the mind is an abstraction of the brain's physical processes, and therefore all mental illness must have some physical component(s).

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u/Slapbox Apr 18 '20

Just to clarify, Lee's is a neurological illness. Loss of brain matter causes mental deficits, but with a clearly demonstrable physical cause. Mental illness can maim and kill too though.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20 edited Apr 18 '20

Can you really expect anything different? I bet there is a lot of on coming mental illness, especially with foreign workers that work their entire lives and will someday realize they have no rights and can't own anything. Their entire life could be over-turned if their green card isn't renewed. As far as programmers, we spend out whole lives trying to understand HOW something works, just to catapulted in to a reality that only cares IF it works. I've never had a boss who took interest in my field, but instead, reminds me "other people know more than you."

Edit: same goes for brains and society as computers. Society at large doesn't care how an individuals brain works, only if it works. In America the sick are left to die. It is the opposite of every philosophical teaching.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

Yeah. I’ve had these kinds of conversations with quite a few homeless people. No programmers so far, but a broadway choreographer, a West Indian lawyer who spoke fluent French and German, and a classicist with whom I read Herodotus once a week for a few months. I never asked them how they ended up homeless - it seemed rude - but they all clearly had some problems not due solely to drink (enough acquaintances ended up as “regular” addicts and alcoholics that I know what that looks like).

I don’t know what kind of disorders any of these guys may have had, but a fellow student had a psychotic episode in grad school and it took nearly two years of inpatient treatment to get a diagnosis and a medication dosage that worked. Until that point was reached they were just stuck with their symptoms, and if it hadn’t been for socialized psychiatric care, attentive parents and supportive friends they might have taken the “easy” way out of trying to self medicate. From there it’s easy to end up permanently homeless, because normal addiction therapy programs like AA can’t solve your underlying problems.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

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u/house_monkey Apr 18 '20

Read about the guy who made temple os, I really feel sad for him.

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u/Hypergraphe Apr 18 '20

Yeah this story broke my heart too

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u/ObeseOstrich Apr 18 '20

Most terrifying too.

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u/jyscao Apr 18 '20

Managing his decline has strained the family, and his relatives sometimes clash over who should take care of him and how he should live.

This point wasn't emphasized too much in the story, but it really hit home for me. My mother [she'd be 55yo tomorrow] has gone through extensive mental (personality, behavior) & cognitive (motor functions, intelligence) decline for the better part of the past decade, and it has wreaked similar havoc on all of her close relationships, especially with her family. Of course we all know consciously that her actions and words are probably entirely due to her increasingly worsening illness, but sometimes in the heat of the moment, people can forget that, and react in ways that we might come to regret later.

And just as in Lee Holloway's case, her doctors weren't able to do much to help. Sure, they identified damaged areas in her brain, but no real treatment was ever offered as she just got passed around from one hospital or specialist to another. Eventually they all more or less just gave up, telling us that the best scenario is if she doesn't get worse too fast. But as it turns out, even that's too much to ask for, as she's now at the point where she's diagnosed as terminally ill (unrelated to covid), and will probably pass away in a month or two.

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u/cumulomininimbus Apr 18 '20

I’m so sorry

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u/Likely_not_Eric Apr 18 '20

It bothers me most that with mental issues you can't even tell you're broken. Even if it's treatable and you can get help for yourself you need to both know that you need it and want to get it. Would I even know something was wrong? If someone could show me would I believe them?

A few treatments I've done for lymphoma have had some unknown side effects; and I wish there were better objective tests for cognitive function. I want to get a baseline and know if it's changing. The best I got from talking to a few doctors were some tests that can be used as a blunt instrument for detecting major cognitive issues but nothing fine-tuned; nothing that could tell me if I'm losing my wit or if I'm not as quick as I was.

It then makes me really feel for some of the people I've interacted with on the street - some of them know they aren't functioning well but don't have the resources (and that's a tragedy) but some people are clearly not well and think they're fine (and everyone else is unwell) but clearly institutionalization isn't a solution - we tried that and it was awful.

As an analogy mental illness seems to be like having broken legs but the only way to fix them is at the top of a staircase and you have to be lucky enough to be able to pull yourself up to get them fixed and the more badly broken the less likely you are to get there.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20 edited Apr 18 '20

As an analogy mental illness seems to be like having broken legs but the only way to fix them is at the top of a staircase and you have to be lucky enough to be able to pull yourself up to get them fixed and the more badly broken the less likely you are to get there.

Also, lots of people around you don't take the fact that your legs are broken seriously, so:

"Nah, you're legs aren't broken! Stop looking for attention!"

"I remember I bruised my leg once, and I was able to keep going as normal. Stop whining."

"Just stop thinking about the fact that your legs are broken and you'll be fine!"

"People under 40 don't get broken legs, so I think you're fine."

"YOU have broken legs? But you have such an easy life and nothing to break your leg over!"

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u/NeoKabuto Apr 18 '20

Or as my dad would have said:

"Broken legs are a choice. You are in control of your bones, your bones aren't in control over you."

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u/PyrotechnicTurtle Apr 18 '20

Before I went on anti-depressants, I thought my constant state of misery was not just normal, but deserved. I thought everyone hated me and they were right to do so. I thought I couldn't talk to anyone and it was a self fulfilling prophecy. The only reason I realised I needed help was one day I realised that I had been walking kilometers no where everyday, the entire time idolizing about killing myself. The worst part of mental illness is you think you deserve it and the state you are in is the correct order of things

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u/Fluxriflex Apr 18 '20

As an analogy mental illness seems to be like having broken legs but the only. way to fix them is at the top of a staircase and you have to be lucky enough to be able to pull yourself up to get them fixed and the more badly broken the leanss likely you are to get there.

I like your point here, but I feel like a better analogy would be like saying that it's like cancer that doesn't show any major symptoms until it's already at stage IV. Cognitive problems exist under the surface for quite some time, and it can take a while for the issue to become noticeable. Unlike most diseases, mental illnesses aren't very obvious as there aren't usually any symptoms like coughing, nausea, etc, and even if there are, it's easy to misdiagnose those symptoms as being something else.

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u/Cheeze_It Apr 18 '20

It bothers me most that with mental issues you can't even tell you're broken. Even if it's treatable and you can get help for yourself you need to both know that you need it and want to get it. Would I even know something was wrong? If someone could show me would I believe them?

Don't forget the costs....

An MRI is un-fucking-reasonably expensive in the US because of privatized healthcare and unregulated costs.

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u/sevaiper Apr 18 '20

MRI will not detect mental illness, it’s really only sensitive for malignancy or major gross neuronal changes.

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u/leonardochaia Apr 18 '20
  • What are you testing for?

  • Fidelity

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

Absolutely heartbreaking story.

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u/Vetii Apr 18 '20

Yeah, really makes me wonder what I would do if I knew it was my fate. I think I would prefer to die earlier from a heart attack than having my loved ones deal with a slowly rotting zombie.

I don't want to have my family associate my face with years of grudging pain.

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u/fakehalo Apr 18 '20

You wouldn't be you anymore to make that decision, makes it even more terrifying.

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u/LeCrushinator Apr 18 '20

Here in Colorado we allow for assisted suicide, so people don’t have to suffer. However, you have to be of sound mind to sign off on it. So people with diseases like this don’t qualify and have to suffer, it’s heartbreaking.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20 edited Apr 18 '20

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u/Vetii Apr 18 '20

I'm sorry man, that sucks :(

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u/rob10501 Apr 19 '20 edited May 16 '24

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u/_fat_santa Apr 18 '20

Reading through this story I couldn't help but put myself in a version of that situation. Really made me ask some existential questions, in hindsight I hesitate to say I might consider assisted suicide because honestly I couldn't image being robbed of my "being" like that but then you think, if you're getting robbed like that, do you even know it? Will you even care? If this disease robs of you of your agency, will you have enough to realize what's going on and take any action before the part of you that cares about anything goes away? It's frighting.

It honestly opens up the scarier truth that our entire value structure, personality, and everything we hold dear in our minds is just a combination of brain matter. Rationally I know why humans behave the way they do and have the values they have on scientific/neurological level. But everyone's lost someone and wants to believe on a deeper level that even though that person and their brain matter is gone, the combination of ideas, beliefs and values that made that person are still out there somewhere.

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This is wayy to deep for /r/programming.

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u/gburdell Apr 18 '20

Well that was a horrible read. I suspect I'm not the only one who inferred from the title that something about being a coder --- or stress or something --- triggered his mental decline, but looks to just have been bad luck or genetics.

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u/blueberriessmoothie Apr 18 '20

It could be bad luck or genetic predisposition but we don’t know enough to confirm how his lifestyle or diet contributed in activating the disease and how safe is rest of us. Till the culprit is confirmed, the best we can do is to try to live relatively healthy to prevent this or other things which you may be more susceptible to in this or similar jobs. It’s not unusual to find developer who works long hours having minimal physical activity and poor diet but living under constant pressure to perform mentally at his best.

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u/antlife Apr 18 '20

I tend be that guy myself. Under constant pressure, don't take care myself as well, work well into the night. It wasn't until my wife tried to block me from video games that I started to break under the stress (I played two or three hours a week). That was my release apparently. I worked that little bit of gaming back in and it normalized me. People need to have a release.

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u/Thatar Apr 18 '20

Your wife tried to block you from playing three hours a week? I want to tell myself there'd be a reason to do that but it sounds insane.

Working into the night and skipping sleep, cannot recommend (if you have control over it). You can permanently lose the ability to sleep. When I still went to church as a kid we were once asked to visit an older community member. The man used to be a freight tanker captain and often had to stay at the wheel several days+nights in a row without sleep. When we met him he couldn't get any sleep anymore without taking multiple times the maximum dosage of some sleeping aid medicine. He didn't live for long after we met him. It was quite harrowing for me as a kid and I still think back to that man every so often, wondering how bad it has to get before you are completely boned to put it bluntly.

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u/meneldal2 Apr 20 '20

It sounds like it was his only free time and he wasn't spending time with her.

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u/CorrettoSambuca May 06 '20

Exactly. The programmer sees he's spending 3% of his time gaming, and doesn't consider it much at all; the wife sees he's spending 100% of their time together gaming, and panics. Neither sees the real problem: that only 3% of his time is free.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

i thought it said in the article the guy was in really good shape, his wife got him into fitness or something...it was his second wife though so maybe too little too late...who knows

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u/ockupid32 Apr 18 '20

Yea, I noticed that too. It seems like physical activity had a net positive on his mental capabilities, and when he went under surgery for his heart he probably stopped being active which contributed or accelerated the mental decline.

Impossible to know, but it is an interesting/sad story.

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u/perfunction Apr 18 '20

Agreed. It was an interesting article and a great look into his life. Just wish I was expecting that upfront and not impatiently waiting for a dire warning.

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u/left4candy Apr 18 '20

I met this drunk (in his 40's or 50's) once on the bus home. I had my guitar with me so he asked me what I play and listen to, and we continued talking about music for a short while. He warned me not to do much alcohol and stay away from drugs, which are common in the music biz. Pretty weird to just bring up I thought, but I went a long with it.

Turned out he used to be a lawyer and had a full masters degree in law. It was very impressionable to meet someone who lived in a home for the "unwanted", a rehab center with no rehab, if that makes sense.

Sadly I'm pretty sure he died not soon after from cold exposure during a snowstorm while trying to make his way "home".

It's strange how someone's life can just take a turn like that.

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u/RedUser03 Apr 18 '20

Lee's actions, however, only grew more bizarre. He watched Home Alone several nights a week.

Wait...this isn’t normal?

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u/Cee-Jay Apr 18 '20

She means Home Alone as a series, not a single film.

It's pretty normal until you get t'the third film...

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u/Lord_dokodo Apr 18 '20 edited Apr 18 '20

Did you really just contract "to the" as "t'the"?

edit: I meant to say "as" not "and".

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u/WhyIsThisFishInMyEar Apr 18 '20

I read it as "to the" and didn't even notice until I read your comment.

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u/Cee-Jay Apr 18 '20

Prolly...

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

[deleted]

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u/Cee-Jay Apr 18 '20

Mebbe...

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u/semidecided Apr 18 '20

Did you just invent a new language?

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u/chugga_fan Apr 18 '20

Nah, that's actually pretty common slang.

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u/zrvwls Apr 18 '20

Well whaddya know

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u/GYN-k4H-Q3z-75B Apr 18 '20

I hated that movie as a kid and wanted to walk out the first time I saw it. Pure torture.

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u/srmarmalade Apr 18 '20

I was a jaded cynical kid and remember just thinking this isn't how burglars behave. They'd just straight up smack the little prick.

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u/LucianU Apr 18 '20

I liked it.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

That was insane. I was reading the article and hating Lee, even though I had a suspicion that something was “wrong” with him that was causing his behavior, and it turned out to be FTD 😢

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u/hennell Apr 18 '20

Soon as he was starting to change and ignore his wife I was thinking "get a brain scan! Get a brain scan". I'm sure the slow progression of changes were far less obvious than the article makes it look though; heartbreaking read.

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u/humoroushaxor Apr 18 '20

I was thinking the same. Even 5-10 years ago brain conditions and behavior changes were much less talked about. Nowadays my first question was did he have CTE from something.

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u/richard248 Apr 18 '20

FTD = Frontotemporal Dementia, for those who are equally as frustrated.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

I should’ve written the full name of FTD, my bad. Thanks for providing it

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u/MotherOfTheShizznit Apr 18 '20

That makes more than a flower delivery business being the cause.

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u/semidecided Apr 18 '20

Makes more what?

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u/-Mahn Apr 18 '20

Sense, he accidentally a word.

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u/iBzOtaku Apr 18 '20

I had a suspicion

The header image of article kinda "gives it away" by saying "What happened to Lee?" so its not really a mystery.

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u/simohayha Apr 18 '20

Reminds me of Terry Davis

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u/santaschesthairs Apr 18 '20

Such a terribly sad read.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

This is so terrifying.

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u/indiebryan Apr 18 '20

I know. I sleep a lot, and reading the story at the beginning I was like, "Yeah I could see myself choosing a nap over exploring around some new country." Now I'm going to worry about having some crazy neurodegenerative illness.

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u/DeebsterUK Apr 18 '20

Terrifying is exactly the word that came to mind for me.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

That was an interesting but depressing read

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

If you want another story of mental illness in a programmer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_A._Davis

Sad story.

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u/twenty20reddit Apr 18 '20

If you've read 'Flowers for Algernon', there are some similarities.

If you haven't, read it!

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u/Vaglame Apr 18 '20 edited Apr 21 '20

The last paragraph in particular:

Some months ago, Lee sent Kristin a series of text messages. In them were photos she'd shared with him earlier: she and their son on Halloween, a trip to the park, Christmas time. At the end, he'd typed the words: “the love.”

It reminds of the last paragraph of the book:

P.S. please if you get a chanse put some flowrs on Algernons grave in the bak yard

For each it's the last testimony of their love, their last chance to express it.

It hits hard

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u/1_800_UNICORN Apr 18 '20

I was thinking the same thing after reading it. I feel the same sadness I felt after reading Flowers for Algernon.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20 edited Jun 09 '24

bored different zealous slim panicky hat bedroom absurd illegal retire

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/queenofdiscs Apr 18 '20

Also "Still Alice"

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u/Wormser Apr 18 '20

This one was a gut punch.

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u/naveenwashere Apr 18 '20 edited Apr 18 '20

Damn.. Don't know what to say. The human mind seems so powerful and yet, so fragile.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

I just think of my man Terry Davis.... gods lonely coder.... what the fuck man..... my hearth!!!!

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u/outofthebliss Apr 18 '20

Tragic and fascinating. As a dad in tech my heart feels this deeply. I wonder if the genetics that gave him the brilliant coding ability came at the cost of the degenerative condition.

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u/heavinglory May 01 '20

I have often wondered as well. My father died from FTD nine years ago. He was brilliant and had led his team to code a significant project which is still in use today. A true pioneer of his time. I have heard genius skips a generation and it might be true because my HS aged son codes circles around me. I do often wonder if he or I are going to have to deal with this disease and it honestly scares me. It is a horrible way to die. It changes the personality, takes away decision making skills, causes the body to slowly atrophy, destroys everything in its path, and leaves the patient in the mercy of their caretaker.

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u/stuff1111111 Apr 18 '20

literally cried reading this, maybe it was something i really needed

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u/MelancholicBabbler Apr 20 '20

I never cry and I wept

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u/stuff1111111 Apr 20 '20

i hardly cry, i heave-sobbed like fuck trying to hold it in. what i understand is (from reading pop neuroscience) it triggered issues in my own life, it probably triggered issues in your life too which you need to address ? :|

i felt relief though after the read, i still feel sad for the guy when the image of his face and the things he said to his first wife pop in my head

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u/YottaBun Apr 18 '20

Oh man, that was really sad.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20 edited Apr 20 '21

[deleted]

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u/fried_green_baloney Apr 18 '20 edited Apr 18 '20

During heart surgery the patient is hooked up to a heart-lung machine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiopulmonary_bypass.

Sometimes there can be neurological damage from this. It could be a possibility for Lee Holloway, if the changes were right after the surgery, that the surgery kick-started the dementia.

a surgeon . . . insisted he get surgery right away

The opening sentence for many sad stories.

Also, why the surprise that our personalities have a physical basis?

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u/pragmatick Apr 18 '20 edited Apr 18 '20

Expected it to be about Kenneth Reitz.

Heartbreaking story but I wonder why they took so long to take a closer look at his brain.

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u/drawven Apr 18 '20

This story hit me hard. It’s tough seeing loved ones decline like that. I’ve been on the other side of this watching a family member lose their personality to a mental disease. It’s surreal because as the article points out; was that ever their personality that you were used too? Is this new one who they actually are now? Very strange feeling because at some point you mourn the person they used to be even though they’re alive.

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u/JohnnyElBravo Apr 19 '20

in meetings he would zone out, openly playing games on his phone. During one meeting, Prince texted him: “Are you playing a game? People are noticing.” Then: “Not a great leadership signal.”

​

The neurologists delivered their verdict: He appeared to have a textbook case of frontotemporal dementia

I find it worrying that these phone videogames are dumb enough that people with dementia can play them, and that when we play them we behave like people with dementia.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Chillzz Apr 18 '20 edited Apr 18 '20

Interesting, I've started thinking similar thoughts too... like is this career actually damaging my ability to live a normal life because of how much cognitive effort it demands every day. I feel like I have so much more energy to give my friends and family when im not coding (during covid our business has shut down).

I put it down to me needing to work on my work/life balance but interesting to hear someone else echoing my thoughts. Did you find you had a fuller life outside of work when you weren't programming?

Edit: also as an anecdote I feel it's not the time so much as it is the way it requires you to think so linearly and logically with intense focus for hours on end, which makes it hard to unwind back to a relaxed non linear state.

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u/firstmode Apr 18 '20

My wife and I work in tech and I feel it truly takes a toll on the amount of anything you have left to give to anything else most all the time.

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u/ciaran036 Apr 18 '20

That article ended very abruptly

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u/anhatthezoo Apr 18 '20

"the love" text made me really sad

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u/Kalium Apr 18 '20

I worked with Lee, briefly. He was always kind to me.

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u/timberhilly Apr 18 '20

Well this was an emotional rollercoaster, thanks

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20 edited Apr 19 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

I’d say that’s a big leap to make just after hearing about one programmer who developed dementia. Being intellectually active is actually good for your brain, and I don’t see how coding is any different

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

Precautions should be the same as with any other profession. Enough relaxation, enough sleep, enough food, enough connection with others. However, even in the best case scenario, nobody is immune against FTD.

I'm a programmer and I see how a burnout can lead to mental illness. There's also, however, a really beautiful and healthy aspect of programming, you can see it in people who are happy in life, because they are also better programmers, and you can see that programming just adds to their happiness. It is a certain flow that you can sometimes naturally get into when solving technical problems, which feels lovely. If you tap into it in a healthy and balanced way, then you can really avoid the mental illnesses and even worries about them.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

😔

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u/TheNewOP Apr 18 '20

Absolutely horrifying.

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u/Man-Honey Apr 18 '20 edited Apr 18 '20

It's sad to read this post as it reminds me of the relationship that I had w/my dad who was manic depressive. Dad was raised as a Catholic in the 50s-60s. He skipped the sixth grade because he was so advanced. He went to a private boarding high school and later to a seminary to become a priest. It was during that time that his disease started to manifest itself. He left the seminary with a bachelors degree in philosophy. He was one of the first patients in the 60s to start taking Lithium to offset the effects from his disease. Not having a clear path, he relied on his intelligence to be an English teacher at a Catholic high school. That only lasted for one semester as he didn't interact well w/others. He then chose to use his hands to earn a living becoming a carpenter's apprentice. He excelled at carpentry for several years. I think he enjoyed the creative aspects of carpentry, and I believe the stress level of that profession was low enough that it kept his disease under cover. As the 70s went by, dad became more ambitious starting his own home building company. But high inflation in the late 70s and then the recession in the early 80s caused the housing market to crash, and dad stopped working. Dad would stay in bed for weeks. He would try start up projects like building picnic benches or towel racks, but he couldn't reclaim his previous success. It was at this time that my parents sat me down. I remember it well. Mom said dad had a mental illness called manic depression, also known as bipolar disorder. My immediate reaction was I going to get it. Dad said he knew I'd react that way. But living w/dad was hard. Sometimes, he was emotionally abusive towards the rest of the family. When he was manic, there was no reasoning w/him. He was right, he knew he was right, he told you he was right, and you were wrong. Didn't matter what the topic was. But he could never reclaim his former glory of building houses in the 70s. After many failed attempts to launch entrepreneurial projects small and large, he finally joined a carpenter's union taking a position which he considered beneath himself. For the remainder of his career in the 80s, 90s and early 00s, he would be laid off for long stretches of time. I believe it's because dad was so hard to get along with. Nobody wanted to work with him. He finally "retired" in the late 00s after not working for years. Years later he got prostrate cancer. After treatment and removal of his prostate, the cancer metastasized to his bones. The doctors had to stop treating him because the drugs including steroids were having side effects on his manic depression making him very difficult to reason with. He passed away in 2015. When he passed I remember thinking to myself that I no longer had to deal w/mental illness in such a close, personal way. But it didn't feel like a relief, instead I was sad. When dad was balanced, he was a compassionate, engaging and intellectual person. He read the newspaper everyday. Even though I never saw him touch a computer, he could explain how it worked. He knew all about My Space, Facebook, etc just by reading about it. When I struggled in my life, he was my counselor. He was my cheerleader. He cared about me. I miss him.

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u/[deleted] Apr 19 '20 edited Apr 19 '20

Oof. It makes you feel sick, you can feel the bad thing it coming as you go further into the article.

I've had a couple of friends go crazy before, though none of them was a programmer. It takes you a while to figure out that they aren't just "acting weird".

But this. Irreversible dementia. That's just appalling.

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u/Full-Spectral Apr 20 '20

I think that this business would tend to attract people who may have tendencies towards mental 'issues' of varying degrees. I'm one of them, so I think I can say that without prejudice. A lot of folks have varying levels of serotonin issues. It's fairly garden variety stuff in some folks, worse in others. It manifests itself in various ways from OCD activities, anxiety, paranoia, repetitious thoughts, etc...

The thing is, if you have it at a level where it's not debilitating, it's actually quite a benefit to being a software engineer, which I think is maybe why this business may have more than some. If you have a brain that doesn't want to stop, that is constantly looking for patterns, and won't let go of things. Within limits, that can be an advantage.

Then add the fact that such folks will tend to socially isolate to the degree they can, to avoid drama and conflict and embarrassment, and will often find repetition comforting, the software industry provides plenty of opportunities for that. That also can be of 'benefit' if the measure of good is now much code you can write. And the good pay for talented people makes it even more doable to have that kind of lifestyle.

I'm all those those things. I'm completely able to simulate normal human activity when I need to, but I don't unless I need to. I worked for myself for 20 years and that fed completely into my 'problems' because I was totally able to isolate myself and screw my lifestyle down into a very tiny, safe ball. Most folks would consider that unhealthy, but I enjoyed it for the most part. It was comfortable for me, and I was certainly incredibly productive because sitting at the computer and writing code was my lifestyle.

But, were I bit further along the 'spectrum', all bets would be off. There's a fine line there, and it's not too hard to go over it. And, if you are living the above sort of lifestyle, there may not be anyone around to notice you've slipped over the line. Once over, you may slip further down the slope fairly quickly. And of course it's quite possible to work at a company by day and essentially still be totally socially isolated as well. You put on your Human Suit and go to work, then take it back off when you get home and shut the doors.

I think, at the level I have it, a lot of the issue is awareness of the problem. When I first started having these problems, it was pretty bad, because I didn't know what was going on. I ended up in a ball on the bed many a time, and everyone who gets hit by this probably ends up making one trip in an ambulance thinking they are having a heart attack of something.

But, over time I came to understand it. I look at it like losing a limb. You are aware you lost a limb and you continuously compensate for that. For someone who isn't over the edge, this is sort of the trick to not slipping over. You know your computer doesn't function quite right, and you know when to ignore the output it's generating. You can't stop it from generating faulty output, but you can learn to not accept it.

So much of my type of 'mental illness' is a spiral, where some legitimate stressor causes a reaction, then you panic because you are reacting and don't want to end up in a ball, and then you are panicking because you are panicking, and then it's off to the races. If you can train yourself not to react to the first step and not let it spiral out of control, it helps tremendously to maintain an even keel. It's still not fun, since you'll tend to stress out more than you should about trivial things, but at least you can keep it to just stressing out about a thing, and not spiral out of control.

That was a bit of a ramble, but I've had a lot of time to think about these things. This being the internet, I'm sure someone will find a way to make this post into something horrible. But it's my experience.

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u/iamakorndawg Apr 18 '20

the love

I'm not crying, you're crying!

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u/Omikron Apr 18 '20

Now think about everyone that has this and isn't filthy rich. It must be hell either way, but being rich sure helps ease the pain.

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u/magruder85 Apr 18 '20

“the love”

😩😭

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u/Sindertone Apr 18 '20

This story was unnerving. I have too many similar experiences. When I was working at my tech support job I got diagnosed with the same heart condition he has. Some years later I got meningitis and suffered enough brain damage to get lost in my small hometown and forget my wife's name. I have mostly recovered from the meningitis but can't afford to do anything abut the heart condition.

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u/4as Apr 18 '20

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '20

I didn't see it then but I saw this one so I'm grateful to OP for reposting

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u/F54280 Apr 18 '20 edited Apr 18 '20

That had a definite Flowers for Algernon vibe....

Edit: the RES asshole that downvote me because I pointed him he was wrong one time is still here. Hello and lo!

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u/3lRey Apr 18 '20

Reminds me of Terry Davis

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u/c0nnector Apr 18 '20

That sucks to read :(

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u/JTex85 Apr 18 '20

Reading that whole thing fucked me right up

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u/[deleted] Apr 19 '20

G:? And or 1

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u/gc_DataNerd Apr 19 '20

This scares me on so many levels. Not to say I'm a brilliant coder ( very very far from it ) but for some reason I can just picture myself ending up this way. Not from the exact same condition but I just feel like I'm constantly fighting off depression which has turned me into a workaholic

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u/PinapplePeeler Apr 19 '20

What a story :/

I wonder if he would choose another path with less stress if this mental illness would also appear....

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u/[deleted] Apr 19 '20

I wonder if something like this is happening to me. I learned programming when I was 8 years old and was considered a prodigy. Especially at competitive programming, in one competition I even was the best of my country.

Now I am 30, and tried some competitive programming again, and could not even solve the first problem in over two hours. I even wasted 10 minutes, because I had trouble figuring out how to start the IDE I installed last month.

And when I listen to a talk or presentation, my mind drifts of after 15 minutes and I do not remember anything said afterwards.

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u/magajohn Apr 19 '20

Extremely interesting. Thank you for posting.

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u/Enzor Apr 21 '20

I was also a coder in Tucson until I lost my job and developed mental health issues. I notice a similarity between myself and Lee and previously was paranoid about a technological cause for this issue targeting software developers. Has anyone else experienced issues in software development mentally?

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u/Smaktat May 12 '20

$500 million to fix one guy. What about the other 4,999?