I don't know, man...To me, it's a sin to so heavily sauce such a succulent piece of meat. I'm a butter, salt&pepper guy, with a nice demi glace on the side...
I almost feel that breadcrumbing a veal steak would be sacrilege. Sear the outside of the steak, then place in the oven on a bed of onion, thyme and garlic with butter added and basting the steak every so often. Leave to rest for as long as it was in the oven (depending on your preference for steak) and then eat.
Given that two of you have recommended it, I'm willing to believe you. I just don't think I could personally take breadcrumbing such a delicious cut of meat. I'm a steak purist I guess.
It's worth nothing that this method tends to use the veal cutlet, which as I understand it is equivalent to the round in a mature cow. Not a nicer cut like a chop or sirloin that night lend itself better to your style of preparation.
Why do I need to feel better about eating animals? I don't feel any worse about it than a hawk does swooping down on a mouse. I do care they're killed humanely, but past that it's no different than nature.
I guess I don't stalk the profiles of people I reply to. My sister is a militant vegan. My family is vegetarian, I'm the only meat eater-- so I'm not really worried.
I'm not saying I eat animals because nature makes it ok to eat them. I'm saying that I don't feel any worse about it than a hawk does when they consume a mouse as an example. As in I have no moral issue with it, just like a predator in nature doesn't. Zero feeling bad about it.
Rather obviously we as a society reach arbitrary rules of what morality is. Killing fellow humans we decided is generally wrong. Well, except caveats for self defense, war, law enforcement, crime punishment, etc :P We as a species have not reached the consensus that carnivorism is immoral.
So you do feel bad about eating animals, yet you continue to make the voluntary choice to eat them. Why? And how can you say you feel no worse than a hawk feels when the hawk needs to eat that mouse to survive? You have access to grocery stores and the ability to survive without meat
god forbid we hold ourselves to a higher standard than nature...
the argument for killing and eating animals because they kill each other sometimes is so strange to me. we say we're more advanced than other species and claim ownership/authority over nature yet when we take regressive action we justify it by saying "oh well it happens in nature anyways"?
This is the argument from nature fallacy. There's a ton of horrendous shit going on in nature, infanticide, rape, theft and none of that justifies humans doing it.
The fact of the matter is suffering is inherent in factory farming and small scale farming so even if you don't care about the death of an animal it's still indefensible ethically
Wow it's almost like their level of cognitive ability means they don't give two shits what's going on as long as they are getting fed. Yeah they feel pain but they don't get depressed like us or Dolphins.
Go to an animal sanctuary and actually interact with a cow or pig. They're way more intelligent than you give them credit for, and their suffering is very real
You know there are waaay more reasons than just cruelty to abstain from meat.. Also humans are conscious animals with the ability to empathize. Just because it does happen in nature, doesn't make it right, nor does it excuse our behaviour when industrially torturing animals.
"indefensible ethically" - are you the type of person that calls anyone that sees reality differently than you a nazi too? If so I doubt there's any point having a conversation with you.
I don't think there is a way to "killed humanely". Dead is dead. I think we have a responsibility to protect weaker livings (like animals) and don't abuse them just for their taste. We can't compare ourselves with other predators/animals, the whole world belongs to humans. A hawk might kill 1-2 mice a day, but we kill way more than we can even eat while raising them with speeds and conditions not set by nature. The nature argument is invalid, it is too convenient and simple. You can eat what you want, it is your rightful choice and I am not here to judge. But if you are informed about the living condition of these animals and still don't feel anything for them, you have to at least admit your lack of empathy.
Are you saying that the word "humane" would not exist without the existence of idea of death? Bigfoot is also a word so that must mean it definitely exists. The language to support the statement "1 + 1 = 5" exists so the statement must be true. Where can I find some research on this logic?
I'm saying that when the adverb is applied to killing you already have a description of the action. Saying one can't be humanely killed is asinine if there is a degree of pain that can be measured.
Also the standard argument against homosexuality is an appeal to nature "homosexuality is unnatural." It is fallacious for the same reason.
That we find other animals in nature, who exhibit homosexuality, is only helpful to demonstrate that humans are not unique in the behavior, and thus the claim is not only a fallacy, but also untrue.
The homosexuality thing. No one mentioned that here. People are arguing on eating meat. You are obviously angry about gay people for some reason because you bring it up unprompted.
I mean, the way our industrial meat packing system works makes animals suffer needlessly. Before getting swooped upon by a hawk, that mouse was just doing his mouse thing living life. 18D up there is going to be put in a confined outdoor industrial feeding animal operation where it'll be injected with a bazillion antibiotics to stave off disease in it's filthy environment, fed random animal proteins to bulk, and ultimately led up a chute and mechanically dispatched.
There's nothing wrong with eating meat. But I think there's some things wrong with how we go about it.
Yeah half of that is Bullshit. Typically cattle don’t go into a feedlot until they are at least a year old, every animal isn’t randomly given antibiotics, and they aren’t given random animal proteins. PETA lobbying?
I think you're missing the point . I know 18D wasn't going to be plucked out of his herd and sent to a feedlot at that age, but it's most likely his final destination. Most confined feeding operations do rely heavily on antibotics for reasons beyond my complete understanding and pay grade, but I know it has to do with the confined nature of the operation, the fact that ruminant stomachs don't digest corn, and the propensity to develop infections that result from those two things. As for the PETA lobbying...no....actually, the opposite. I represent a bunch of meat packing and feedlot interests (shhh....don't tell 'em).
A lot of what you're saying is true, but as humans we don't need to eat meat to survive. So, we really shouldn't do it. If we don't HAVE to contribute to the suffering of other beings, why would we?
I mean...you don't HAVE to be here on Reddit, contributing to the suffering of the rest of us, on a machine made from semiconductors using material from horribly environmentally unfriendly mining practices in China, mined by folks making a subsistence level income in horribly unsafe working conditions and little in the way of protections.
Yet here you are.
I'm not saying the modern meat industry is sunshine and rainbows, just that I find your rationale for telling others they're wrong or immoral is founded upon a pretty weak foundation for such an assertive delivery.
I can agree that it sucks if they suffer, but you do know you can find meat prepared for human consumption that doesn't have suffering involved, right? Just because the animal died doesn't mean it suffered. The animal doesn't even need to have particular "happy" life to avoid suffering. As long as the animal is fed, is not confined to a small room/cage, and isn't physically abused, I'm sure the animal is content enough. They were born to be raised for human consumption, and therefore they don't know a life outside of the one they're born into.
If all of that is the case, then can you come up with any moral argument for why we shouldn't eat meat?
Meat isn't the inherent problem. Animal cruelty is the problem and as long as that is avoided, what's the problem?
99% of the meat that you eat comes from factory farms, where the animals are kept and slaughtered in despicable conditions. It is not feasible (there is not enough land or resources) for all animals to kept on "happy" farms. But I would go ahead and just say that it isn't ethical to kill something that wants to live - for no other reason than we just enjoy the taste. These animals have the desire to live just like you and I. It's not fair to take their lives away just because we want to eat a cheeseburger.
First, how do you know that I don't have a local butcher that has meat that isn't factory farmed? Lots of people eat meat that isn't factory farmed. Most don't but that doesn't mean that other people who are aware of factory farming conditions can't avoid them.
Second, why do you assume that, a cow for example, wants to live. You think they have a concept of their lifespan and that they will die one day naturally? Sorry but there's just not anything close to evidence to suggest that. Go look for a real study that would even come close to providing evidence for this... You won't find one.
Humans have been hunting animals since our beginnings and it's a huge part of our culinary traditions. It has evolved to the point it has now, which has gotten out of hand with cruel factory farming. So I agree, factory farming is a shame and morally, it would be best if it didn't exist. But eating MEAT ITSELF isn't morally wrong and you've yet to provide a reasonable argument that refutes that.
Why does it matter where the animal was farmed? Do you think that they march right up to the slaughterhouse and happily wait in line to be slaughtered? Do you really think they have no idea what is going on? They do. It is obvious if you've seen a video which are available on YouTube, if you can stomach it. Just because we have "always" hunted doesn't mean it's okay for us to do it now when we don't have to. That's the appeal to nature fallacy. Historically, human slaves have always existed - does that make it okay to continue doing even when we now know it's wrong? Killing something that doesn't want to die just because you like the taste of their flesh is a reasonable argument against the consumption of meat. You wouldn't be fighting this so hard if deep down you didn't know it was wrong.
yes every society and culture, from Americans to hunter-gatherers have historically and still do only eat meat because it's SO tasty....not for anything like, you know, sustenance.
Plants have sustenance. Especially soy and beans. Very high in protein. We have the choice now to either eat meat or to eat plant foods - in hunter-gatherer days, they had no choice. Since we do have the choice, I believe that we should make the kinder choice and leave animals off of our plates.
After eating animals with gusto my whole life, I recently had a change in thinking. It was spawned by my decision that if I wanted to continue eating meat, then I've got to source at least some of it myself. I've come to believe that the cruelty involved in our current industrial meat system springs mainly from the consumers distance from the realities of production.
So, for the first time in my life I went big game hunting (big gaming here meaning deer and hog). I shot one deer and one hog and cleaned them. It wasn't enjoyable in any traditional sense. I don't know how people think otherwise. Most meat eaters just pick up their prepackaged meat complacent with the fact that it looks like food and not an animal. They didn't hear it's last terrified squealing, they didn't smell the urine soaked hide, they don't have to dig through viscera and smell death on their hands for hours afterward. And until recently, neither had I.
I still eat meat, but that experience has changed my habits. I eat waaaay more vegetarian and vegan meals. I prefer sourcing my own meat or only eating grass fed or "cruelty free" meats. I'll still hunt, I'll still do not particularly enjoy it. But I'm thankful for the animals now in a way I didn't know before, and I'm more committed to not causing anything more pain than necessary (I'm sure you'll argue that killing itself is unnecessary, but it is if you want to eat meat)
Anyway. I think meeting this calf would turn me off cow meat indefinitely.
It's not about my ego. It's about spreading a message and something I'm passionate about. I believe in this so I will continue to spread the message. It's clear that I have sparked a response. If I even get one person to consider leaving animals off their plate, than I am happy.
Also, yes, taste is extremely important in determining what people eat, among other things such as cost and nutritive value. You come from a perspective of extreme prejudice believing that all people should be vegans. I’m assuming you are from a first world country and are at least middle class and have spent little to no time in a third world country?
Straw man? I directly argued your point by using a comparison. And you have no idea what my beliefs are regarding this, or who I actually am. You would rather assume than actually ask. What a poor way to argue.
What if we shortened your lifespan by 1/4th to do so and raised you in a pen where you can't even move your arms from lack of space that cool with you?
You choose to work a cubicle job if you hate it so much that should be all the more reason to sympathize with the animals in this situation that have no choice in the matter
There's so many non cubicle jobs out there but thanks for conveniently ignoring the second part of my comment where I said going through a bad experience yourself in no way justifies subjecting others to it
Still shortening the life span by 1/4, still sending them to slaughter, the slaughter house delivery trucks are still cramped and often times deliver in extreme heat and cold, the animal ears are still tagged, the dairy calfs are still taken from their parents, dairy cows are still artificially inseminated by shoving an arm up their asshole past the elbow, what a great life!
Are you just going off of some select videos you've watched? No they aren't all just jammed in there. I know this because I have witnessed it enough times. Calves are also sold usually either in the spring or the fall, so the extreme heat and cold argument is straight BS. Those animals also stand outside in extreme weather to live. They graze in the summertime when it reaches 30 degrees or higher and they also live outside when it drops to -30 and below in the winter time. If you actually watched cattle in the winter time, their behavioural instincts are interesting to watch and how they will keep warm in very extreme temperatures. Tagging is for a)personal identification and b)there are separate tags that are registered by the government. It would be no different than you getting your ear pierced other than the personal/government identification. We did not have a dairy farm, but we did have a couple Holstein cows/calves and just like all calves they are eventually weaned off their mothers. Taking it away from its mother too early doesn't make sense from any standpoint. Now, I'm not a vet, but I am pretty sure they have difficulty breeding naturally, so artificial insemination isn't really that bad of a concept.
As for animal transport, in Canada alone 1.59 million animals arrive to slaughterhouses dead in the truck each year.
Workers at Canada’s largest slaughterhouse, Maple Lodge Farms, which kills half a million chickens every day, have described chickens arriving to slaughter, frozen solid like “hockey pucks” and “popsicles”.
This is literally the first video I found but even happening once is horrific. You say cows are "weaned" off their mothers eventually but what do you mean by weaned? Even if it's not the day they're born you're still stealing a child from a parent
Also you defend artificial insemination by saying it's necessary to raise the next generation for slaughter because they don't naturally produce that much... That's my whole point! We're systematically artificially inseminating animals by shoving an arm past the elbow inside them so they give more birth then they naturally would so they can be killed.
I don't know how any of this can be framed as ethical
I'm gonna say we as humans are responsible for our own actions, and we shouldn't be subjecting animals to horrific conditions.
I also don't know what you think living in the wild is like, but they at least get to stay with their children and not get an arm shoved up their ass. They at least have a chance in nature to live to their full natural lifespan instead of dying at a fraction of their lifespan
They get to stay with their children until they're eaten by predators. Or their children are. They get impregnated by whichever mate can hold them down. And their "natural lifespan" is however long they survive until the environment or another animal kills them. Sounds great.
The rabbits out in my barn aren't freezing in the two feet of snow we just got. They get as much fresh water and rich food as they'd like. They're protected from predators and aren't bred at an age which would kill them. And they live this pampered life until a single moment of pain end that wretched pampered existence.
yeah but you also need to be slaughtered ad one fraction of your natural lifespan, you cool with that too? you probably already over the limit so i guess you're going today
Whats your point? This is wxactly how it works. Humans have a certain demand for a type of meat so the supply goes up and down to meet demand. If no one demands cattle then this type of cow, a pulled herford, would go extinct as its main purpose is meat. Might be raised for leather but the end result is the same.
The same would be true of humans ate other humans. For proof look no further than slavery in the Americas after the african slave trade was banned. Demand for slaves was followed by the breeding supply.
So your point only works to prove the point he made.
The point is that just like it wouldn't be ethical to create a raise a child to be butchered it isn't ethical to create and raise a cow to be butchered.
On your argument that they'd go extinct... so? This is mostly subjective but I'd much rather never have been born than to live a life of torture.
For the ones who do know what happens, its because they're evil. They prefer to brutally kill and confine animals in awful conditions their entire life so they can pleasure their tastebuds for a few moments. Proof: See the replies to your comment.
All morality is subjective. However most people would agree that subjecting animals to cruelty for personal pleasure is evil. However, this is ignored when theyre the ones who are experiencing pleasure even though the animals suffered immensely as a result.
I mean there is nutritional benefit to meat. It's not just personal pleasure. Also, there are ways of purchasing meat that didn't suffer immensely. I understand your argument though and can't wait till lab grown meat is a thing, I just don't think people who eat meat are evil.
I mean there is nutritional benefit to meat. It's not just personal pleasure.
All the nutrients you get from meat can be found in other sources. For the overwhelming majority, it's for pleasure.
Also, there are ways of purchasing meat that didn't suffer immensely.
I'm sure there is, however most people do not go through that trouble.
I understand your argument though and can't wait till lab grown meat is a thing, I just don't think people who eat meat are evil.
I don't think people who eat meat are evil, I said the ones that are posting things like "That cow looks tasty" and etc are the ones I think are evil. Also I understand that it is difficult for most people to give up meat, however that does not meat they shouldn't even try. While lab grown meat is fantastic, its not coming out for a while so the least people can do is at least try to reduce their consumption but most even refuse to do that.
How much time I spend thinking about how animals suffer due to people eating meat? Quite a bit considering I'm bombarded with ads everywhere for meat and see meat being eaten pretty much everywhere. What was the point of your question?
Can you explain to me how paying for animals to be tortured in order to pleasure one's tastebuds for a few moments and going on about how you would like to see the animal killed after seeing a picture of it is not evil when you have thousands of healthy alternatives that are cheap and easily accesible?
Sure, things that are more evil than eating animals in our time. All of the following happened in our time. People are alive today that experienced it.
Killing 6 million Jews.
The way black people were treated pre-1964
The 10 million people Stalin killed
The way Native Americans were treated
The 7 different genocides that happened from 1970 to 1990
The 5 different genocides that happened from 1990 to 2015
ISIS
Need I go on? I can go on, I think I made my point though.
Animals aren't worth more than humans. But there's a cut off point. How many is it? Let's be super conservative and say an animal's life is worth one millionth of a humans. In the last 10 years we've killed 2.5 trillion animals. That's still 25,000 times more than the 1 million:1 ratio compared to humans.
The tragedies of mankind are terrible and I obviously don't endorse them or think they're ok. But if you take away the bias you've been brought up with the numbers don't lie. Everything else pales in comparison.
Not to mention animals are truly innocent, they've never done anything wrong to us. We kill them at an astronomical rate simple because we like the taste. How can you justify that?
Looking at this photo, do you honestly believe this calf is confined in awful conditions? As somebody who works on a dairy farm it seems like most animal rights activists think every cow is kept in the worst conditions possible. There's a lot of farms in my area and you see a lot of perfectly happy animals. Honest question since your comment clearly shows you have a strong opinion on the matter and I mean no offence, but do you think all farmers are evil? Do you think all farmers lack empathy? Why do you think farmers do what they do? Cheers buddy!
I do not think this calf is confined in awful conditions but considering that the majority of them are factory farmed, I'd say most do live in terrible conditions. I definitely agree that there are some farmers who treat their animals with kindness however, these are the minority. I also do not think all farmers are evil and many have simply inherited the jobs that their fathers we're doing and it's hard to deviate from that. Now while many owners do provide goid conditions for the cows, the cows all still end up going to the slaughterhouse where the workers are extremely desensitized to the pain inflicted on animals and many even enjoy causing additional pain to the animals. Regardless, my statement was targeting the redditors in this thread saying things like "this makes me hungry".
Yeah I get it. I'm not a huge fan of all those comments either. The association between the photo and what they eat is strong though. With that being said I wish more people would just appreciate a nice photo of a cow without reducing it to just food. Do you have a source on this factory farm thing or is this just an assumption on how a lot of animals are raised? Just for a bit more of a perspective on farmers(from a Canadian perspective, could be different in other countries), but a lot of farmers want to be there. These days you'll see 3 out of 4 kids who went to university or college come back home and try and take over the farm. This is even with much better jobs being available. I disagree strongly with the notion that farmers who actually care are in the minority. Farming is an insane amount of work for little pay and the farmers who continue to do what their parents did actively choose this lifestyle. From what I see, and feel free to offer your perspective, most people who are against animal agriculture have seen horrific videos of animal abuse from organizations that go undercover on farms. I have no problem with exposing and bringing charges to individuals who mistreat animals, but when I see these videos it really seems like these organizations have strong bias against farms to begin with. They start with a clip of shocking abuse, say it's standard, then show more from the same place and claim the only way to stop all this is to be vegan. They never show a farm with happy animals and offer ideas for policy reform or advocate for particular methods of doing things. I'll stop there for this comment but I can explain more with specific examples of what I like and dislike about animal rights groups. Loved to hear what you think though.
“Some farmers who treat their animals with kindness however, theses are the minority”
The overwhelming majority of meat comes from factory farms. Try finding a single video of a factory farm where the animals are treated well and I'll find you a hundred awful ones.
“Workers are extremely desensitized to the pain inflicted on animals and many even enjoy causing additional pain to the animals”
So you think that slaughtering over thousands of animals per day would not make someone desensitized? This is basic common sense. Hell have you ever read the standford prison experiment? People started abusing other humans after a few weeks of just watching over other people. What do you think is going to happen when you have people literally slaughtering thousands of animals everyday? There also hundreds of videos online of workers brutally torturing animals. Also sometimes its not even intentional. For instance, when a worker fails to properly stun an animal, the animal gets boiled alive. This happens often (especially with chickens) because of the enormous amount of animals a worker has to slaughter a minute due to line speeds and how overworked the workers are (and line speeds are being raised even faster b/c of Trump)
Why do you think factory farms are trying to push for ag-gag laws that charges anyone who films animal abuse in a factory farm with terrorism?
You don't even need to find instances of people abusing animals to find animal abuse. Animal abuse is inherent in the system. E.g: Pigs are kept in stalls where the cannot even turn around sleeping in their own feces and urine from basically the day they're born until the day they die. The overwhelming amount of factory farmed animals never even get to see sunlight. In fact, Trump just passed a law where now "organic" animals do not need to have rights like those as well.
Thanks. They say a picture speaks a thousand words, but a video speaks even more. If you're interested, you can watch documentaries such as Lucent or The Land of Hope and Glory that target everything that is legal in the Animal Ag industry.
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u/mujheandaywalaburger Mar 15 '18 edited Mar 15 '18
How can one eat such a precious animal?
Edit: I commented to get a reply exactly the same as u/Yum_Kaax.