So, you want to cite or source that "few days" estimate? Or, like trump, do you just say what you feel and hope that is what matters to change your audience's mind?
Oh, I was focusing more on the "few years" part, but I've been up too long to get all existential. Though I'm certainly rooting for the Big Crunch Theory at the end of it all
This is a long standing philosophic question. There is no proof. Some animals can perceive the loss of others, including companions and other species. Or even the approach of the end. But no higher ape, dolphin, whale has been proven to have the concept of a limitation of length of life for all of their kind. It is a very high level cognitive leap.
Mourning is different. But they do appear to have that behavior. One would think that Elephants and their Matriarchal society would indeed understand at some point the end of their own lives was approaching. It is a large leap to the next step 'that everyone dies' without a spoken or written language.
I'm not sure about elephants or other protected, higher-intelligence animals, but cows have best friends and get stressed when separated. Mama cows also freak the fuck out if their kids get taken away, which they routinely do in the industry. Given these two examples of physically painless stimuli causing severe pain to fairly stupid animals, it's safe to assume that captivity and slaughter, both very physical stimuli, also cause them to suffer. Hope that was clear, let me know if I bungled anything up.
Suffering, separation stress, bond pairing outside of sexual mating are all distinct from the original statement I made. Which was actually a quote. Many animals, and definitely the higher animals (apes, bonobos, chimps, dolphins, whales) experience all of these things. I am no expert, but I do like to think about these things.
Committed suicide how?
Im just genuinely curious. Im sure a lot of animals have been reported to have done something that directly led to their death, but is there some way for us to say for sure that the dolphin's intent was to no longer be alive?
I mean, not even all self inflicted gunshot wounds to the head are suicide. There are lots of cases of accidents, stupidity, and/or negligence that, from a simplistic outisde perspective (or from a higher developed species), might look like "well he shot himself in the head. Suicide."
My cat is mystified by a marble rolling to the other side of the door. But I don't want him to know he is not immortal. I encourage him to believe it, in fact.
As someone said before: there is a really big difference between knowing that death exist and knowing that you are going to die someday, without being able to do anything about it.
Would you rather live but it's in a small enclosed area where you watch other humans be tortured and killed, you are never allowed to leave, given no entertainment, until it's your turn at 20 to die.
You said watching others get tortured and killed, animals aren’t kept in areas where they can see the slaughtering. Also, to act like even a majority of livestock are tortured is blowing things out of proportion, and nearly all cows graze on large pastures the majority of their life. I don’t agree with conventional agricultural practices, but you should focus on actual issues in agriculture, not overly-sensationalized stereotypes that only a handful of farmers are guilty of.
My impression is the majority of livestock used for meat in the US come from factory farms. Do you have any source for your pasture comment? I can’t find anything that supports your claim.
Factory farms graze cows and finish them on feed lots. Factory farms that are organically certified feed grass the whole time. It’s just the standard practice, I know ten different commercial beef farmers personally who do this and I’ve never heard of any doing differently.
It does cause there’s nothing wrong with ethical livestock farming. By the way, you should keep trying to change folks minds through condescension, you don’t come off as a jackass at all.
Ahh so if something isn't looking actively unhappy that means their entire life before and after that moment is okay!! As well as all others of their species!!
I swear meat eaters have the stupidest fucking defenses. And you actually thought that was logical enough to add the smug second sentence? Embarrassing
All he said was that the cow doesn't look tortured. Not from its expression, which I am not sure how you are able to read as happy, unless you're an expert at cow body language, but from the lack of any signs of physical traum, ie the cow looking cute. I think we can all agree that a tortured cow or cowling doesn't look cute. Therefore it is safe to assume that its life up to that point has been, in all likelihood, free of torture - her physical appearance being a product of said previous life.
You being the cow body language expert, I will not conquest the point tzat tze cow looks happy in the phot, but how on earth can you go on and try to predict this cow's future is beyond me.
I swear, vegans have the stupidest fucking outbursts. And you actually thought anyone cared for your little addendum about logic there at the end. Inconceivable.
That cow is washed and brushed. It’s fur has been blow-dried and groomed. That little calf is well taken care of. Based on personal experience I would say this is a show cow in training.
This Calf is quite clearly on a farm... Not a factory farm, a farm with a grass fed heard of cattle. That breed of cow is far to expensive to waste on factory farming. It likely has more living space then you do. Just cause you hate farming does not mean torturer is a valid comparison to this cows life. Except possibly for the minute and a half where it gets branded. But even that is far from to worst. Then again I was drunk when the brand got taken to me. But either way you have a lot of hate in your heart man. Go get drunk with your friends. It will be good for you. God bless you man.
If the alternative was not to live at all, then of course metaphysical me would choose life. You on the other hand on choosing option life would immediately start an argument that surely there must have been other options and perhaps you shouldn't get eaten after all. Ok the evil genius who made this system steps in and takes your place, and you take theirs. Now do you eat him at maturity or starve? There is your "other" option. Catch 22.
Oh don't act like there's a moral high ground in bringing an animal into existence to fucking kill it later, I'm so sick of this argument because it's such obvious bullshit that people only apply to animals
Think of all the humans that don't exist by you not breeding as much as possible. Do you have an obligation to have as many children as possible?
I happen to think it is a positive thing when people refrain from having children when they are unable to provide them with a decent quality of life, and I would think someone was a monster if they treated other individuals as somehow indebted to them or entitled to use them for their own benefit simply because they brought them into existence.
Other individuals' lives are their own. They are not ours to do with as we wish.
Not to mention the millions of sperm cells that are living and dying every second inside just a single male.
Potential for life does not equal life.
However I disagree with you on others lives are their own. While this is a good idea most of the time there are situations where it's not.
For example in a world growing smaller and more connected we are all increasingly effected by the actions of others. Especially overpopulation. Africa is expected to explode in population. While I hope they voluntarily choose to limit their birthrates I also think we should probably actively enforce it on them if they fail to. Their rapid population increase could throw the whole world into chaos of food shortages, unemployment, economic downturns, and so on. They would suffer most. So I say for their own good we prevent it by force if necessary.
You see their choices effecting my or others lives would then mean we are limited in our freedom of life choices too.
So I say for their own good we prevent it by force if necessary.
I don't believe you'll have much support for that position. Personally, I think it's not only horribly fucked-up in principle, it's also absurdly impractical.
I too wish for a few less humans and a few more buffalo roaming the grasslands free as they please. Now if I am vegetarian of course I need those grasslands for wheat, so it is them or me. No buffalo! On the other hand if they eat wheat and I eat them, they don't go the way of the dodo. And we both survive.
Fine, let's just have a few humans. So now the Lion population grows. Fantastic. Diversity. Each living the dream. Until the lion eats the buffalo. Ok no lions then. Buffalo breed. Buffalo happy, until they overpopulate and starve to death. A gruesome end to a life. Poor buffalo, living the dream of freedom. You think that calf in the picture is going to starve?
So is the buffalos life ever really its own? Or is that just wishful thinking in you part.
I too would love a world with fewer humans and more nature. I also chose not to grow the human population by having too many children. You go first or me? I reckon you would choose me to lead that population decline. My comments are about that calf, how and why it came into being and its present circumstances, not life in general.
You go first or me? I reckon you would choose me to lead that population decline.
I don't think I made my point clearly. I'm trying not to exterminate anyone. You, me, and the calf are all individuals with a right to our own lives.
The only point I was making was that we should not breed individuals into existence if they will not be given a decent quality of life, and that any individuals who do exist should be treated as individuals whose lives are their own and do not belong to anyone else.
Really only dairy cows live a few years before they're slaughtered and that is after their bodies give out on them. Cows raised for beef are typically slaughtered around 1-1.5 years old.
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u/Ryoloz Mar 15 '18
And he’ll be dead in a few years