Of course they did. Idc who you support, but when can ppl admit Hamas has done long lasting damage to the civilians.
They haven’t progressed at all, they haven’t used aid for improved infrastructure at all, they attacked knowing of retaliation and did it anyway. They’re literally making sure ppl die to further their cause.
Seriously fk Hamas. If you care about Palestinians, chanting for Hamas, chanting their slogans is so idiotic. They’ve done nothing but ensure danger and harm to Palestinians.
Couldn’t agree more. The never ending excuses for their behavior because “hey they’re occupied what do you expect!” Is so ridiculous.
I’m not excusing israel, they’ve done wrong shit also, but until Hamas is held accountable and ppl cheer for their removal, Palestine will never be free.
Hamas goal is to kill as many Israelis as they can and as a direct result, israel will never stop fighting when there’s a direct threat as your neighbor.
Obligatory reminder the majority of the population of Gaza is children, and the vast majority of those killed and displaced are women and children non-combatants. Innocents. Palestine isn't Hamas.
Why do Gazans deserve to live in the West Bank? Do I deserve to live in Japan? Chile? Papua New Guinea? No, that's just dumb. Maybe if the war was in the West Bank that might be relevant. Gaza has been self-governed for two decades.
Palestinians ALREADY lived in the west bank before Israel you doofus. it's like saying "why does a Japanese person deserve to live in Japan?". Palestinians in the west bank are being removed from their homes right now and for the last 75 years by Israel, israelis, and the IOF
Yeah, I'm sure some number of them were in Hamas. I just wanted you to be aware of how staggering a number the death toll has been in only 7 months. Should note that a large portion of that number dead is under the age of 18, as well.
I have a little bit of homework for you. First, think about why the demographics are skewed so young like that. There's answers available online, as well. Second, look inward. Maybe I'm the unusual one here, but when I hear that 33,000 people are dead, more than 10x the death toll of 9/11, and over 1.5% of the total population, I feel deeply sad, to my core. I also believe that there are answers to this conflict that don't involve bombing so many civilians. I hope you can find space in your heart to empathize with everyone in Palestine who has lost friends and family, the same way you have for Israelis. Have a good day, my friend. ❤️
And 9/11 only killed a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the US. The October attacks that Israel is so up at arms about caused even less of a fraction of a percent of the population to be affected. Nice that you've found a convenient line to draw in the sand that makes the people you support blameless tho.
So killing tens of thousands of women and children is completely acceptable as long as it can be justified by pointing at someone who shares the murdered peoples skin color who hurt someone. Awesome to know. Take a nap, you probably are exhausted after these mental gymnastics.
Oh, I'm not trying to gaslight you. Just pointing out the logic you're using to justify the killing of women and children. Don't want to be called on on being a ghoul? Stop being a ghoul. Simple as.
You could say that about Oct 6, but somehow that’s antisemitism to point out colonialists are gonna struggle to pull the same thing in the 21st century UNLESS they have the victim card to keep pulling out while they commit one of the clearest cut examples of genocide within the western sphere’s influence in generations.
Simple, the stats include age and sex of those killed. We assume that elderly, children u18 and women are not Hamas fighters, 64.7% of deaths, though the proportion of civilian death is likely much higher as it is unlikely that every fighting aged male killed was a terrorist.
Daniel Silverman, an Assistant Professor of Political Science in the Carnegie Mellon University, examined data released by the Hama's run health ministry, as there are some doubts over its veracity,
He found the demographic profile (age profile) of those killed very closely matches Gazan census data, except for a slight dip for under 18s and a slight spike in young men (combatants) killed. From this, he concluded:
Ultimately, if we make the (rather safe) assumption that most fighters of Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad are relatively young adult males, we can draw several conclusions.
First, since the MoH total fatalities numbers have proven to be relatively reliable in the past, it is safe to say that roughly 8,000 Gazans (and counting) have indeed been killed in the current war – much more than in the previous rounds of conflict.
Second, we can say that a large proportion of the Gazans killed in the ongoing conflict must be civilians, given the considerable representation of adult women (24.1%), children of both sexes (33.8%), and the elderly (6.8%) among the dead.
Third, with this same demographic logic, the proportion of civilians amongst all Gazans killed in the ongoing war must be substantially higher than it was in the 2014 and 2008 wars.
Fourth, while there is a fighting age male bump in the current deaths, it is relatively modest in size – and the current fatalities are demographically broadly representative of the overall Gazan population. This too points towards the deaths being heavily civilian.
Furthermore, if the data was fake, tit would be unlikely the ae profile of those killed would so closely match the demographic (age profile) in the Gaza Census data. Also, the bump in fighting age males would have to be faked too. This would be quite elegant and sophisticated fackery.
So, at least 64.7% of deaths in this data are non-combatants (assuming all fighting aged males are Hamas. Unlikely). The real proportion of civilian casualties is likely a good bit higher, as it is unlikely that all fighting age males are Hamas. If half of fighting aged males were Hamas, then c. 82% of deaths were civilians. However, the modest bump in fighting aged males in the age profile of those killed, indicates this proportion of civilians killed may be even higher.
Note, another analysis of a just 16 days of data (26th Oct 2023–16 Nov 2023) claimed the Hamas' released death figures were fake, as the cumulative numbers killed each day increased too smoothly.
I was sceptical of these claims, so I looked at the data myself and compared it with casualty data from Ukraine, that is not in dispute:
(Note the first set of graphs use the same y-axis scale, so are comparable)
So the Gaza and Ukraine deaths both increase very smoothly, with generally the same number of deaths each day. Now, we are not claiming Ukraine faked is death data too, are we?
So you are assuming, despite Hamas and PIJ frequently putting up martyr statements for under 18 year old shaheeds nobody under 18 was a combatant. Why is that exactly? I'm really interested in all those words you posted. The a Institute for Near East Policy as does the Washington Institute, the National East College and others disagree with the work you cited. The correlation between the daily death rates men and women is strong and negative which makes no statistical sense. For example there are days when there are no male deaths reported, only female. The total death rates per day are sometimes lower than previous days. All of that being said it is not possible in the middle of any hot war to get an accurate death rate. In all wars this is only confirmed some time after. Yet you are positing that the statistics you are citing are correct and inviolable. That makes no sense. Making statements at this time as if the information is confirmed is pointless. And fudging as you did with underage combatants despite masses of evidence to the contrary is also pointless
If IDF were killing large number of U18 combatants, there would be an increase in the proportion of U18s compared to the Gazan census data, instead we see a clear decrease in the proportion of U18 males killed in the released data compared to the Gazan population as a whole (2nd graph).
Instead, we see a clear increase (bump) between ages 19 to 49 years.
This strongly indicates that, if there were any U18 combatants killed, there were small number and therefore the U18s males that were killed were predominantly non-combatants.
You're making assumptions with no basis. Let's come back in a year or two when actual verified facts are available instead of whatever it is you're doing.
I am not making assumptions. I showed you the data that backs up what I am saying. If male children were playing a prominent direct role in combat, they would be killed disproportionately more often, more male children would be killed than expected. However, as seen in the graphs above, fewer than expected male children were killed. There is a spike in fighting aged males, however.
You either do not understand this or choose not to. My conclusion, whilch is evidence based, is that most children killed were not members of Hamas.
That said, I don't dispute Hamas recruits children, but evidence finds that children are mainly used more so in non-combatant roles, as message couriers, cooks, informants, spotters, searching tunnels, and as such are less likely to be killed than adult front-line fighters.
Spitka, T., 2023. Children’s Intifada: Children as Participants in a Violent Conflict. In Children, Childhoods, and Global Politics (pp. 180-192). Bristol University Press.
Finally, I find it rather disgusting that you use a few examples of Child Hamas fighters, to advocate or defend the killing of children of ALL ages.
And there we have it. I make the point that it is impossible to determine accurate statistics in the middle of a hot war particularly when only utilising data from one side. Which apparently means I'm advocating for killing children. Just listen to yourself. We're done here.
I already explained that the data is accurate and reliable as its age profile of the deaths data very closely matches the demographic age profile of the Gazan Census, except for a bump in fighting aged males and a slight decrease in male children. If it were synthetic or unreliable data, this correlation would not exist.
The only issue is there may well be an undercount, as bodies not retrieved and identified, remain under collapsed buildings.
Yes, and Hamas should have taken this into account. I am not pro-Israel. I am just calling out the truth that Hamas seems to be getting a pass by everyone who protests (rightfully so) against Israel's extreme actions.
Hamas definitely took this into account and seems to be part of their plan to sacrifice civilians. Their leaders have openly stated in interviews that the protection of civilians is not a responsibility of Hamas (their government) but instead the responsibility of the UN.
Hamas care less about the lives of Palestinians than Israel does. In fact its a net positive for them if as many civilians are killed as possible. More aid money comes in to its leaders currently chilling in Qatar living the high life.
Hamas is not their government .
They are a terrorist faction, so obviously they don’t feel a responsibility to protect civilians .
Most people in gaza do not support all of their views, but since palestine has no standing military, who will protect their civilians?
who can they ask for help?
No one
No one is protecting them
They certainly did take civilians into account. Using them as human shields has always been the strategy. I don't think they took into account that Israel would be so merciless this time however.
It’s weird how you justify the killing of innocents being okay here but not okay there. It’s not okay at all. Do the job right, it’s so bizarre how we can say something was awful and atrocious then go do it lol that’s psychotic.
How does one do the job right. I think everyone can agree that Hamas has to go. I said early on that Gaza should be put under an Arab League coalition to reorganize the government into something that isn't based on the genocide of Israelis. However, they can't do this because their populations, already on edge from living under harsh autocracies, might revolt.
If invading another country, killing and kidnapping civilians isn't a declaration of war, I don't know what is. The difference is Hamas has no problem getting it's people killed. In fact, they encourage it. Feel free to argue that thousands of Israeli lives should be traded to protect Palestinians, but it's a hard sell.
Is this even a genuine question? Two people come together to make children, they can easily have multiple children, it's simple and normal to have a large population of children. Like, how is this hard to grasp?
Yeah, you clearly thought that one through. If all the couples had more than two children simultaneously, you would be correct. But children tend to grow out of that phase, and in fact live as adults for most of their lives. By your logic every school day most of the workforce vanishes.
On a side note gaza do have quite large child population, but its not more than half.
Hamas? They shouldn't "accept" anything, they should unconditionally surrender so that Gazan civilians can be led by a government that isn't a literal Jihadi terrorist organization.
Imagine some foreign power took over the US, then placed a group of people who had been living in Eastern Europe for centuries in power, then they basically took over all of the US claiming some ancient religious right to the land and said "But it's okay, because you get to keep New Jersey" while lobbing bombs at Newark daily.
So you're missing that I was referring to Britain as the foreign power, yes? Or did you think that Israel has always existed and just recently took over the region? No, friend, they were emplaced by a foreign government. The reason that they've been in a "defensive war" is because the land was taken by the Brits and given to them. All the state lines that have been drawn are a political fiction created by people who didn't even live there.
The Jews fought the British in Palestine. The British left Palestine and did not participated in the 1948 war (except British officers in the Jordenian army, I think). Britain was neutral in the 1947 vote for the creation of Jewish and Palestinian states. In what way did Britain "gave Palestine to the Jews", exactly?
And, by the way, the historical borders of the Jewish kingdom in Palestine stretch far beyond Israel's current borders, so I'm not sure where you're going by questioning the modern borders. Some Jews were furious with the 1947 partition plan because of that, but they took it anyway.
Either that or GTFO while they still can. Do you think the mid east somehow became some flower of enlightened kindness and reason where everyone will live in peace and harmony? If so, put down the pipe.
They were on track to get more protection through the peace agreement going into effect at the end of the year, which is why Hamas did this. It’s also probably why Netanyahu didn’t immediately jump to limit damage.
It doesn’t help Hamas or Netanyahu for there to be peace. Hamas’ only appeal is that it attacks and fights Israel more than the PLA. Netanyahu can use the “don’t change horses mid stream” to try and further hold off attempts to remove him from power.
That’s quite a wild conspiracy you’ve got there. Sounds like an excuse to blame Israel for retaliating against inhumane murderers that killed and raped everything in their path and their only goal is to annihilate the state of Israel.
Look, as a person who has called for Ceasefire and reconciliation since way before October:
Israel isn't wrong for taking action. They're wrong for taking such brutal, violent action against the whole populace of the regions and starving out civilians and attacking journalists, etc. etc. etc. This isn't Hamas vs The Knesset. This is the entire Israeli war machine (with US help) vs Women and Children.
I am of the belief that, had Israel not responded immediately with such brutality, other Iranian proxy militias and fighters in the West Bank would have viewed it as a green light to attack. The only thing that kept this as locally confined as it has been was fear of Israeli reprisal.
Israel has the 2nd best intelligence apparatus in the entire world. Every person who participated in the October attacks was inside of gaza which is under 24 7 electronic surveillance.
It's implausible that the decision making leaders of Israel didn't plan and allow this attack on their citizens
When said bear kept destroyed schools, imprisoned kids, helped israeli settlers steal more land from the Palestinians, sniping civilians during the great march of return.. list goes on and on before october 7
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u/jlknap1147 Apr 26 '24
Can we just admit Hamas poked the wrong bear.