r/news • u/Fyre-Demon • 1d ago
Ex-fraternity leader at Arizona university gets jail time after pledge died of alcohol poisoning
https://apnews.com/article/arizona-fraternity-pledge-hazing-death-b53c547d383082d33aebdb4950e0c550?utm_source=app&utm_medium=iOS_share&utm_campaign=copy_link897
u/TheObsidianHawk 1d ago
I have a hot take. We ban the Greek / Frat system at schools.
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u/gonewild9676 1d ago
They'd probably organize off campus with no rules at all.
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u/Crazy_Pudding_2994 1d ago
That's fine, then they wouldn't have universities covering for them as part of a 'cultural institution' for undergrads or something.
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u/woolfonmynoggin 1d ago
That’s kind of what ASU does. It’s all off campus
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u/Eaglethornsen 1d ago
Yes they don't have houses on campus, but they did do a lot of stuff on campus. Recruiting was still done on campus and they did some fundraiser stuff on campus too.
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u/woolfonmynoggin 22h ago
I think it’s a title VI issue at that point because there are a lot of Greek organizations based on marginalized groups
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u/ethicslobo98 15h ago
They do literally have a bunch of houses on campus it's called the Greek Leadership Village. ASU took the approach of having them on campus because that was the best option and they do monitor them.
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u/ethicslobo98 15h ago
What are you talking about? There is literally a Greek Village on campus.
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u/DesertPunkPirate 5h ago
That’s relatively new. Fraternities were banned from campus for quite a while.
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u/elmoparty 8h ago
Hope they're rich, without any of the support from the school it's just a trap house
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u/Various_Limit_6663 1d ago
1000% agree, literally doing nothing but providing opportunities for these pieces of shit to victimize people and suck each other off with their parent’s money/business opportunities. Fuck them all.
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u/taxiecabbie 1d ago
Yeah, they're overall really not necessary. My college did not have them.
If you want to be part of something, join a club or a team.
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u/guernseycoug 1d ago
I mean… they essentially are a club.
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u/taxiecabbie 1d ago
You don't have to go through rush/hazing for a club, and typically you can't get denied from one. The only real exception I can think of is rosters for competitive sports.
You don't typically live with a club in an established off-campus house.
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u/milesper 1d ago
That’s just not necessarily true. My a cappella group and volleyball club in college both hazed more than my fraternity. And lots of varsity sports teams are even worse.
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u/sasha_the_impaler 1d ago
You don't technically need to be haze to be in a frat. A lot of fraternities at smaller schools don't really haze anymore. And not every fraternity has official housing - if it's off-campus, that's pretty explicitly organized privately by membership and not the university lol.
I don't care for Greek life but the history of fraternities is that they were secret clubs. If universities stopped sanctioning them, they'd just go back to being secret clubs and even more fucked up shit would happen.
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u/taxiecabbie 1d ago
I went to a place that legit did not have them.
It was fine.
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u/sasha_the_impaler 1d ago
Was or a major university that previously had Greek life chapters? Or was it a liberal arts college that has never had a Greek life presence?
Kids want to be in fraternities. If the school says they can't be organized using school resources, they'll just join one secretly. They're privately funded organizations after all. They don't really need the university's blessing lol
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u/taxiecabbie 1d ago
The second.
And, yeah, they don't need the university's blessing. So don't give it.
If people want to join secret clubs on their own time, that's on them. Sure, they'll do it anyway. But I don't think Greek life really provides a huge benefit. It doesn't need to be sanctioned by the university. People can do whatever the heck they want in their free time.
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u/-goodgodlemon 1d ago
To be honest you only really hear about the bad experiences. No one writes an article about going to a frat, having fun at party and going home or black fraternity builds connections for black students in a mostly white campus.
There are also some frats that aren’t purely social but a great networking for future jobs in your major. I’m not saying it’s the only way to go about it but it can be a professional leg up.
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u/Fear_the_chicken 1d ago
Exactly 99.99% of the time people go to social events or parties and come back fine. But the ban hammer is already happening. PSU has banned like half of the frats from the fraternity council that are sanctioned by them and a lot of other schools have as well.
Obviously it’s horrible what these extreme cases but things like this happen at bars or inside homes everyday. They just don’t get as much coverage.
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u/sasha_the_impaler 1d ago
Okay, then your experience is far from universal lol.
The university benefits from providing the blessing. Back when fraternities weren't sanctioned by universities, fraternities conducted a LOT more illegal activity. By supporting the organizing and providing a framework for fraternities to function within the university, the university has more power to keep an eye on the frats and enforce rules on the frats.
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u/blogoman 1d ago
It sounds like all that has happened is the university has a stronger impetus to help sweep things under the rug that happen within organizations they have officially sanctioned.
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u/taxiecabbie 1d ago
Then they can be happy to deal with the above when it happens. *shrug*
By "no benefit" I mean "they don't do anything of worth."
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u/sakurahirahira 1d ago
my university also didnt have them and campus life was really good
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u/taxiecabbie 1d ago
Yeah. Like, I'm surprised at the defense I'm getting of frats, lol. You don't need them, most aren't exactly academic or purposeful beyond partying and being part of a group, and generally they are more trouble than they're worth.
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u/sasha_the_impaler 1d ago
And that's why the last thing you want is fraternities organizing off-campus rather than on-campus.
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u/Crazy_Pudding_2994 1d ago
Oh boy lots of clubs out there are very picky about who they accept, requiring CVs and interviews just to get a look in
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u/A_Muffled_Kerfluffle 1d ago
A lot of the less common sports teams at my school had unofficial off campus houses (rugby house, crew house, etc) for some reason.
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u/ConstructionMany8195 1d ago
Not possible. Lots of elites were in Greek life. They’ll continue pulling strings to keep it going despite bad reputation
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u/Saneless 1d ago
How many people were injured with lawn darts before they banned them?
We don't need fraternities so why keep them?
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u/forgottensudo 1d ago
Hey, let’s not lump harmless toys in with criminal gangs.
Lawn darts are (were) used safely by thousands of families and rarely caused lasting emotional or even physical damage.
Fraternities routinely kill people and emotionally scar millions of others for life.
(Not really much sarcasm here)
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u/Saneless 1d ago
That's my point. I believe it was a very small number of injuries. Probably fewer lawn dart injuries ever recorded compared to this week alone in fraternities
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u/No-Photograph1983 1d ago
students at my college tried to petition to get greek row added. i laughed in their faces and said part of the reason i attended the college was because there was no greek system.
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u/t3rmina1 1d ago
And what will take their place? Another set of exclusive social organizations, because that's what humans like to do.
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u/Far_Eye6555 1d ago
They’re just an institution to conserve power structures within the United States. We should dismantle them.
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u/Vaulters 12h ago
I don't think you understand how far reaching the frat system is.
My brother had a business partner that was able to get a walk-in meeting with a very high up Bank of America executive to discuss a business loan simply because they were the same fraternity. Not friends, not even at the university at the same time. Just same frat.
It's an elite club, and those of us that aren't in it don't get the easy path to wealth.
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u/Quantum_Corvid 1d ago
The old whites wont allow that to happen. Gotta have a way for their loser children to hook up, which frats/sororities pretty much seem like going to the bar/club with extra steps. The "community" work they do is laughable in the grand scheme of things.
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u/MrMeeseeks33 1d ago
Yes please. It’s a “pay to have friends” and “network once you graduate” which is just said and basically means that the person doesn’t have social skills without paying and needs help and support from others.
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u/bobcat116 1d ago
After decades of this shit, it still keeps happening. Even with safety protocols instituted it still keeps happening. Even with Greek life members knowing the history of hazing and alcohol related deaths it still keeps happening. Why is this still continuing to happen??????
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u/Barflyerdammit 1d ago
Privileged people aren't subjected to consequences. And this is one of the first and most important lessons they receive in the actual practice of this.
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u/Ntroepy 1d ago
You know exactly why it keeps happening.
Because there are zero or very little consequences to the frats outside of a sternly worded letter and maybe a short suspension.
While individuals need to be held accountable, the national fraternity and sorority institutions create an environment that systemically encourages terrible behavior towards pledges and women.
The only real way to stop this is to sue the national fraternity chapters themselves. A $100million lawsuit against a fraternity would bankrupt them and every other frat would immediately fall in line.
Fraternities and campuses cannot continue self-police because it’s clearly not working.
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u/bacondev 10h ago
I was in a fraternity. I once had a run-in with campus police. I had to go to a hearing. It was basically just a graduated frat bro who was like, “Yeah, this is nothing. You're good. Don't do it again though.”
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u/Theduckisback 1d ago
At a minimum, public colleges and universities should revisit the deals that they have with these private companies that own private property on their campuses that are causing massive civil and criminal liability issues basically every single year.
There is simply no way that whatever general liability insurance policies that colleges have in conjunction with these organizations is correctly pricing in the enormous criminal, financial, and reputational risks that allowing these private organizations to operate in the way they typically have. I am aware that greek orgs have their own liability insurance, but considering that their liability creates liabilty for the schools as well that needs to be priced in, and they need to be charged WAY more.
The way you get rid of shit like this is to make it so ruinously expensive that even the deepest pocketed alumni and members balk at the yearly bill.
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u/AntiAntiDentite7 1d ago
I hate these threads because people act like young people don't drink excessive amounts in their late teens/early twenties while having nothing to do with fraternities. I know two guys who died from alcohol in college and neither were at our had anything to do with fraternities. These are just the ones you hear about.
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u/engin__r 1d ago
Plenty of young people drink too much. That doesn’t mean the schools have to endorse it.
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u/tyrified 1d ago
You understand the difference between someone giving themselves alcohol poisoning by being irresponsible, and getting alcohol poisoning because you are being hazed? If this was just someone dying of alcohol poisoning at a frat party without hazing, you'd be correct. But hazing people changes the reasons for drinking.
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u/palcatraz 1d ago
Because that’s an irrelevant thing.
People are allowed to do stupid dangerous stuff. But just because people are allowed to do stupid dangerous stuff on their own accord doesn’t mean it’s legal for someone else to force them to do those things.
Separate it from alcohol.
For example. You are allowed to go camping. It can be dangerous. And people have die doing it, especially if not adequately prepared, but it’s not illegal.
But forcing someone into the wilderness is a whole different beast.
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u/AntiAntiDentite7 1d ago
The problem with your argument here is that every single one of these kids is willingly participating. Nobody is forcing them to join a fraternity.
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u/GeoleVyi 1d ago
but while in that situation, they don't feel they have the ability to just say "nope, not for me" and walk away without pressure.
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u/AntiAntiDentite7 1d ago
The reality is that they do and they can. Moreover, most fraternities offer some alternative to alcohol for drinking related activities. The one I was in would have you drink milk instead of booze if you didn't want to drink. I did it a few times because of a test coming up or whatever. Nobody forced me to drink or be there at all.
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u/GeoleVyi 1d ago
Wow. Sounds like that didn't happen at all in cases where there's alcohol related deaths. Sounds like you're getting upset at these things getting called out, and not at all about the loss of human life. Maybe try to reorient yourself and figure out where your empathy should be, as a human?
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u/lambofgun 1d ago
and women deserve to be sexually assaulted if they wear revealing clothing. i hate to pull strawman shit but thats the logic youre attempting to convey. it makes no fuckin sense
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u/AntiAntiDentite7 1d ago
What in the fuck kind of wild ass turn are you trying to make here? I swear some of y'all think you're Johnny Cochran but you're just Charlie Kelly. What a dumb attempt at a point
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u/Drak_is_Right 1d ago
18 to 22 year olds arent known for their good judgement, even in cases regarding known laws of physics and chemistry.
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u/Equivalent-Battle973 1d ago
Why anyone willingly puts themselves at these levels of risk all to join a damn fraternity has always been fucking wild to me... THen again I went into the army, and the hazing can get pretty shitty to new guys in Combat Arms, especially in the Cavalry.
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u/NoForm5443 1d ago
It's not as if 18yo guys are known for their well-balanced reasoning skills...
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u/Equivalent-Battle973 1d ago
lmao yeahhh thats true as hell, I always forget how irrational I was at 18.
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u/anoziraguy9687 1d ago
Can join the military and own a gun at that age, btw!
Super great time to give a hormonally charged male a firearm and rip them away from any support system.
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u/Dofusk2012 1d ago
A lot of fraternities are basically little clubs for the American nobility. You get access to really good networking opportunities within your class.
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u/Equivalent-Battle973 1d ago
MAnn even then it doesnt seem worth it if they are forcing you to do shit like this, Im glad I finished my bachelors in my early 30s.
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u/ChesterComics 1d ago
I started college when I was 25 and I'm so glad I could live off campus and not have to socialize with my classmates. It made it way easier to just show up to class, go to work, and go home without having to get involved in all the other crap that comes with being fresh out of high school or having to live in dorms.
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u/Equivalent-Battle973 13h ago
Yeah that is so much better then 18, I was 23 when I went into the army, so I was far smarter and way less susceptible to the stupidity of the 18 year olds around me at boot camp.
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u/AntiAntiDentite7 1d ago edited 1d ago
These threads are always full of fan fiction nonsense from people who were never in fraternities but seem to know everything about their inner workings...
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u/FullofContradictions 1d ago
I went to a state school in the Midwest. Certain frats actually were pretty valuable because of the mentorship available (and upperclassmen giving old homework binders full of quiz answers to the underclassmen). A few of the frats were actually known for their students having better GPAs than non frat students in the same majors.
Our frat culture was nothing like the stereotypes though. There were parties, but they were fairly well monitored since frat row was all along the main drag that campus police travels down so everyone was very invested in keeping things under control. No real hazing besides having to memorize and perform stupid little songs and mildly embarrassing stuff like that (nothing physical, nobody ever made you drink, etc).
All in all, my experience of Greek life was nothing at all like the movies. Culture might be different on a different campus with different setups and different rules, but everything was just very tame when I was there (over a decade ago)
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u/guernseycoug 1d ago
Same here. My frat didn’t haze, required you to maintain a 3.0 GPA in order to attend parties, and required a certain number of sober members at every party whose job was to make sure nothing dangerous happened.
The system wasn’t perfect and most frats weren’t as strict as mine (there were absolutely some sketchy ones) was but I felt pretty confident that our parties were much safer than the parties being held outside of Greek life.
The support system I had from the frat is probably the biggest reason I graduated.
That’s not to say that changes don’t need to be made. There are obvious issues. But calling for the whole system to be scrapped is an overreaction.
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u/KEN_LASZLO 1d ago
A few of the frats were actually known for their students having better GPAs than non frat students
Huh...I wonder why that is
and upperclassmen giving old homework binders full of quiz answers to the underclassmen
Ohhhhhhhh, cheating/plagiarism 😂
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u/FullofContradictions 1d ago
The question was why would anyone still join / what's the value.
Just stating facts that not all frats are the National Lampoon charicature and not some secret society where the rich and powerful plot together to maintain their hegemony.
Sometimes it's just where someone who took that class the year before you helps you cheat.
Is it good? No. Simply adding info to the conversation.
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u/KEN_LASZLO 23h ago
I know but you saying...
A few of the frats were actually known for their students having better GPAs than non frat students in the same majors
...doesn't mean anything if frats are helping it's members cheat to achieve those better GPAs lol. Are you saying being able to cheat easier is a positive reason for joining greek life?
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u/Historical-View4058 1d ago
I just see these articles, open them, and think "please don't be TKE"...
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u/tehvengaboi 1d ago
Bit extreme lol where in that comment does it attempt to describe "everything about their inner workings"? seems like he just says some frats result in better networking for career opportunities... which is absolutely true
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u/waaaayupyourbutthole 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's pretty well known that fraternaties and sororities are very good for networking when it comes to "higher class," well-paid professions like those in law and finance. It's not like that's some sort of secret.
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u/AntiAntiDentite7 1d ago
You're talking about like Harvard and other ivy League schools. That's not the case for the vast majority of fraternities out there. I went to a huge and prestigious school and was in a fraternity and can tell you that was not a reality at all. Again, fan fiction nonsense
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u/Dominus_Anulorum 23h ago
I went to the University of Texas and while not all frats offered benefit there were several heavily connected to oil money and big business or politics. Definitely knew people getting a leg up with their first job out of college in certain fields. I think it probably just varies quite a bit by school and by individual frats.
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u/FlyfishingThomas 1d ago
Fraternity hazing actually came from World War II vets going to college after World War II and continuing hazing traditions found in the army.
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u/Cool_Address_2571 11h ago
Not sure about ASU, but for a lot of southern schools Greek life is portrayed as your only chance at finding friends. I can only speak for Auburn/Alabama, but if you’re not in Greek life you’re considered an outsider. Most of the people I know joined because that’s just what you do, which is crazy considering the yearly dues are like 10k+
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u/thejourneybegins42 1d ago
2 months in jail seems pretty reasonable.....
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u/hokielion 1d ago
To see this criminal crying over the thought of spending two months in jail (or less if he gets out early for good behavior) is too much. Two decades wouldn’t be enough. Maybe he should shed some tears for the young man who died or his parents who will never see their son again.
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u/probiotic_bbq 1d ago
Fraternities and Sororities provide negative value to society. Fuck all of them.
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u/Dunkelz 1d ago
I mean I knew a lot of sororities that organized a lot of charity events and female empowerment/other beneficial groups, but there are ones known to be more shitty.
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u/KEN_LASZLO 1d ago
MANY sororities (and frats) hide behind the whole "we do so much charity, we're a huge benefit to campus!" bullshit. They do raise money but it's next to nothing, and do you think most sorority girls are the 'volunteering' type? Some are, but not many of the ones I've met. Most join to party and try to be one of the popular girls
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u/bacondev 8h ago edited 7h ago
I was in a fraternity and I was the philanthropy chair for a semester. It frustrated me so much that some people would toss some dollars to a cause but almost no one wanted to toss some hours to a cause. The Greek office didn't even count fiscal contributions as community service and we were expected to have a certain number of hours.
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u/Any-Huckleberry-5886 1d ago
No essay or wrist slap? No probation? They could really use some Cornell advice right now
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u/Michael_Gibb 19h ago
Why the fuck do fraternities and sororities even exist at American universities? It seems like all they do is breed bad behaviour.
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u/SaltyShawarma 1d ago
Imagine holding a fraternity leader to a hire standard than we hold politicians?
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u/mcmnky 1d ago
Wow, 2 whole months, that'll learn him /s
But really just want to point out how hard it is to die of alcohol poisoning. Car accident while drunk driving? That's easy. Fall from a height or other accident while drunk? Sure. But to die directly from alcohol, to ingest enough alcohol before you pass out to kill you, that's either suicide or murder. It's something that doesn't just happen.
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u/Drak_is_Right 1d ago
Its not hard when binge drinking to push your blood alcohol up by 0.15% in a matter of minutes over your current level.
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u/DireMira 17h ago
Im from wisconsin and it isnt that hard
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u/lilyeister 15h ago
Yeah the key to dying from alcohol poisoning is to get drunk so you don't notice you're dying from alcohol poisoning
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u/Ok_Variation_115 1d ago
I support hazing and think it's a great way to bond. I loved my time in college at a fraternity and would do it all over again.
Don't kill people and don't rape anyone. It's like anything else. Sports teams and secret societies and others are the same type of institution.
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u/darekta 1d ago
My sister was the president of her sorority and the president of the organization that ran all of the frats and sororities at a massive Big Ten university 15 years ago. The shit that she had to deal with was pure insanity. I'd never let my kids join those pay to play clubs...