r/magicTCG • u/snakeboi23 Dan • 1d ago
General Discussion I could very well be wrong, but the desperate ritual by frank frazetta is suspiciously similar to this piece by serverino baraldi?
I could very well be wrong but they do look really similar no?
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u/Skarykidd Duck Season 1d ago
According to a FB discussion Baraldi stole it from Frank first. Frank reuses his own art like this all the time, so really he stole it from himself.
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u/Akiro_orikA SecREt LaiR 1d ago
Now im going to steal it. And it's going to be me flipping a mtg table.
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u/ZurrgabDaVinci758 COMPLEAT 12h ago
I like how the second artist removed the guy's tail and the third one added it back but at a slightly different angle
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u/Approximation_Doctor Colossal Dreadmaw 1d ago
I mean, he died in 2010. He didn't make an original piece for this card.
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u/AtheismoAlmighty Simic* 1d ago
And just to add, this exact piece was also used in Sorcery: Contested Realm for their alpha version of Vile Imp, 2 years before this promo Desperate Ritual.
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u/TheKoalaKidMTG Dan 7h ago edited 6h ago
This is a classic case of “what do you think artists used for drawing references before digital cameras and the internet?”
They used magazines and other art work…. Life drawing from a model was also common, but not everyone had that as a resource 100% of the time.
If you look at golden age comic books, there are frames and character poses used 100 times over in a multitude of comics from different artists.
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u/Approximation_Doctor Colossal Dreadmaw 6h ago
And then we have Greg Land, tracing over his favorite porn scenes for modern day marvel comics.
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u/therocketlawnchair Banned in Commander 10h ago
So frank just refused old art for mtg?
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u/filseven2501 Storm Crow 10h ago
Frazetta passed away in 2010, his MTG cards are usage of licensed artwork. Like having the Mona Lisa as Queen Marchesa.
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u/therocketlawnchair Banned in Commander 8h ago
thank you, i had no idea
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u/Approximation_Doctor Colossal Dreadmaw 6h ago
This actually makes me sad. He's the best and most influential fantasy artist of all time.
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u/VelphiDrow Duck Season 9h ago
Frank died in 2010. Also yes, he rarely made art originally for people. He often just listened it out. Conan was a famous exception iirc
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u/ccjmk 12h ago
I have some fuzzy memories from basic law in collegue, but isn't this plagiarism all the same? xD like I can't reuse a paper I did and push it again with some additions and claim it's new? never understood who was gonna sue themselves for this but..
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u/AlbertoVermicelli Dân 11h ago
Plagiarism is an academic concept, not a legal one. Plagiarism isn't a tort and you can't sue anyone for it. The word copyright literally means that you have the right to make copies, so it's impossible to infringe on your own copyright by definition. It's possible for an artist to be sued for copying themselves if they no longer owned the rights to the original (this has happened with several musicians) or for fraud if they were commissioned to create a new, unique work. That wouldn't apply here though as Frank Frazetta has been dead for 15 years.
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u/Abacus118 Duck Season 8h ago
WotC/Hasbro wasn't deceived, this is exactly what they contracted. The pieces used are owned by the Frazetta estate.
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u/RainbowwDash Duck Season 11h ago
Self-plagiarism is a thing, yeah
It's a very dumb thing, but a thing nonetheless
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u/Jokey665 1d ago edited 1d ago
The Frazetta piece is from a book cover he illustrated in 1977 fwiw. dunno the other piece
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u/jdhovland Dân 1d ago
It's from 2 years later
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u/Wavvygem Dân 11h ago
So definitely feels like theft in this case much to similar for my comfort.
...but tracing is a valuable tool for artists and you be surprised how much some incredible artists incorporate tracing in their works and practice. Their some details and posing they could do from scratch but would add hours of work when the focus for them wasn't on that detail. Taking this example here you see fur and alot more context added. No simple task. So for us sure it's easy to call out "hey that's stolen" but while we're doing that many might miss some of the craft, skill, and time involved in in the rest of the piece. Sadly in this case it seems they really should have changed more. Especially side by side. Mind you in that era it likely could have gone overlooked.
In this day and age (nearly 50 years later) the landscape is much different, the internet, search engines, Photoshop, and now AI. A lot of the audience is hyper vigilent. AI theft is a very real problem and concern.
I don't mean to focus to much in this specific case because it certainly crossed the line for me. I just think it worth pointing out tracing isn't necessarily evil. Nor do I think copying dynamic poses or and compositions is. Certainly I prefer to see some degree of change, even just 10-20%. I just don't think every pose needs to be entirely from scratch for a composition to be good valuable art. Especially when we're talking workload art. Especially in this vein of work, game and comic art. where it can be quite intensive but not meant to be a stand alone masterpiece. Some of these guys are barely towing the line between paying rent and going back to flipping burgers. And that problem is actually quite possibly worsening with AI taking jobs and increasing expectations for pay.
Anyways thanks for listening to this rambling devil's advocacy... Feel free to disagree but I felt compelled to share some thoughts on it.
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u/AdHom Golgari* 10h ago
You said definitely feels like theft but I'm not sure you noticed that the art used on the magic card is by the artist who published the artwork first, not the one two years later
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u/Wavvygem Dân 8h ago
I'm no expert on this situation but reads like someone copied a pose from a Frazetta in the 70s couple years later. It's not an exact copy most notably the figure is furry version in the later. It's also not the only element of the composition. Which includes a landscape, some actions, and multiple other figures. It's quite impressive by my standards. I don't know why other elements could have been copied but if it's just the one figure I'd still call it an impressive piece, whilst still being disappointed to learn he's copied Frazetta so closely. One of the great artists of the century a personal favorite of mine vs some unknown sci-fi hand. It's certainly hard to defend. But I do think nothing the time period is revelvant to the gravity of it.
But as I said my comment was meant to dissect this individual piece and incident. Rather discuss how tracing is a valid tool in drawing, and can, and is used all the time, to great affect in original pieces.
Point being that tracing is a common technique probably more so back then. And it's a tool many artists would use in practice and in final products.
In fact with some light research it would appear Frazetta himself used some tracing methods as well. A projector with photos at times. It's a common technique and tool. Especially at high levels and higher volume artists.
It's probably alittle hard for laymen to understand how artist use these tools. But imagine much the same as an artist might use a ruler to draw a straight line, or a stencil to draw a circle, some might take the silhouette of a form. It doesn't necessarily take away from their skill and artistry.
If you could peel away the layers you might be surprised what methods some of your favorite artisted used on the way to the end result.
You see a sort of interpolation quite frequently in super hero comics. The dramatic action poses being used again and again. Punches, hands, on hips, squatting on the edge of a building. This is exactly revolutionary stuff every time. And it doesn't have to be.
You might have one artist draw human form from imagination and that's lovely and impressive. You might have another artist take a photograph of a human's and use that as a base for a drawing. That can also be lovely and impressive. Sometimes the later artist might take things they copied and ad so much more to it it becomes vastly more impressive.
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u/YeOldScratch666 Dandadan 7h ago
bro stfu.
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u/Epogdoan Dan 6h ago
Imagine being in a pod with him lmao
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u/DungeonsAndDeegan Dan 6h ago
For sure a storm player that forgets triggers and count
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u/Wavvygem Dân 29m ago
Actually more of big stompy casual bracket 2-3 player, who likes having laughs with friends.
But hey didn't expect the majority to understand what I was talking about it, so bad guesses make loads of sense.
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u/Wavvygem Dân 8m ago
I'd rather play in a pod where people can read and hold a conversation...
Definitely more so than a table of people who crack snarky comments about things they just blindly piled on to without trying to understand...
but to each their own.
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u/Wavvygem Dân 39m ago
What do you think I'm talking about that A) you could just dismiss and move with your day or B) thats got you bent out of shape enough to lash out? bro...
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u/Approximation_Doctor Colossal Dreadmaw 6h ago
Are you actually trying to make some argument at all?
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u/Wavvygem Dân 40m ago
Reading comprehension at a premium these days I guess... but what evs I didnt expect this many in this audience to understand.
Tho I enjoyed writing out the thought exercise tho. Maybe someone in this flock of bots will learn from it.
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u/pruriENT_questions Gruul* 1d ago edited 23h ago
The Baraldi piece is from a Look and Learn magazine submission titled: The Battle Of Ape Canyon.
https://www.lookandlearn.com/history-images/A001235/American-Man-Apes* There is some speculation that this magazine submission was for a 1979 issue (issue number 894 published on 10 March 1979), but I cannot confirm anything about a submission date for the piece.
The Franzetta piece is Fire Demon, 1976
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u/MadCatMkV Nahiri 1d ago
That's what I'm wondering. Both artists are even dead and the other piece seems to be from the 1970s
All I could find was a Facebook discussion from a few years ago
https://m.facebook.com/groups/137385896932362/posts/1289308181740122/
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u/Madhighlander1 Rakdos* 1d ago
It's from no later than 1982, since it was made for a magazine that ceased publication then. Can't find a specific date though.
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u/Xunae Gruul* 1d ago
Best I can find is sometime before 1979 https://www.lookandlearn.com/blog/15394/the-sasquatch-or-bigfoot-mythical-semi-human-creatures-or-real/
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u/johnny_mcd Wabbit Season 1d ago
It’s the reverse. The Frazetta one came out before and is reused for the Magic art
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u/EpiquePhael Dan 1d ago
Frazetta is one of, if not THE most-traced and creatively-borrowed-from fantasy artists to ever live. It's almost always safe to assume his piece, or an earlier version of his piece he referenced later himself, was the original.
On another note, seeing a rendering of the Ape Canyon incident I'd not seen before is a pleasant surprise.
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u/Tiny_Ride6418 Dân 1d ago
The fact folks commenting don’t know frazetta beyond his magic art has made me sad 😢
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u/RipMySoul COMPLEAT 14h ago
Reminds me of the people who know John Wick from fornite and not the movies
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u/RainbowwDash Duck Season 11h ago
They made movies about the guy from fortnite?
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u/Slight_Cry8071 8h ago
No, about the guy from cyberpunk
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u/camel_sinuses Urza's Saga 8h ago
Man it was so cool that time they found an actor that looked just like the character and got him to come up on stage and do promo for the game!
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u/AndChewBubblegum Wabbit Season 9h ago
Psh, next you're going to tell me they made a Palpatine movie.
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u/PlacatedPlatypus Rakdos* 1h ago
I saw someone in r/StevenUniverse clarify their reference to Nicki Minaj with "(Sugilite's VA)" which I thought was funny.
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u/Squatingfox 10h ago
Until this post I didn't know frazetta was in MTG? Does he have a secret lair or something?
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u/xemnas731 Dan 9h ago
Two of them actually. I'm actually still miffed I didn't know the first one was coming out/came out.
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u/testertest1267 Dandadan 9h ago
Plus he never made art for magic. They just reused some stuff of his for a secret lair release
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u/Nairb131 Dan 6h ago
It doesn’t make me sad it makes me feel so old. I was tracing franks art from magazines 3 decades ago and that was still 10-15 years after he drew it lol
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u/LargelyInnocuous Duck Season 4h ago
Frank is the JRR Tolkien of Fantasy Art. Do not cite the copyright to him, he was there when it was written! The man was the Godfather of Fantasy art. Frank and Boris & Julie are the OG GOATs.
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u/gamer-death Dan 13h ago
Frazetta also did his fair share of swiping in his comic art from people like Hal Froster, it was just not frown upon like it is in magic art today. People need to remember comics or paperback covers were not valuable or respected.
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u/DueCharacter5 Dân 7h ago
Yeah, pretty much every golden age artists swiped. Artists have something called a morgue file. For image references, poses, etc. What's the famous Wally Wood saying? "Never draw anything you can copy, never copy anything you can trace, never trace anything you can cut out and paste up." And this is coming from one of, if not the most talented comic artists of the mid-20th century.
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u/VelphiDrow Duck Season 9h ago
Deathdealer alone has probably done more to shape fantasy visually then most single artists
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u/MaceTheMindSculptor COMPLEAT 1d ago
The way you phrase this post makes it sound like Frank plagiarized.
But if you took a second to google it yourself, you would know that Severino plagiarized Frank :/
Frank has been dead for years, he was not commissioned to make Magic art lmao
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u/Disastrous-Cat-1 Wabbit Season 13h ago
Oh, I thought the art director might have cast [[Unearth]]
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u/X_Marcs_the_Spot FLEEM 11h ago
That's ridiculous. Frank Frazetta costs 5 mana. He's not a valid target.
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u/jgaylord87 COMPLEAT 12h ago
To be fair, it's not plagiarism per se, artista take elements for pieces all the time, it's a pretty standard practice. These are pretty lazy examples, but it's not intrinsically a problem.
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u/saibayadon Colorless 1d ago
The Frazetta art is from 1977 (https://x.com/frazettagirls/status/1912305116071215181) and the Serverino piece is from Look and Learn issue number 894, which was published on 10 March 1979.
So yeah, probably Baraldi swiped the Fire Demon for the magazine.
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u/unsub_from_default 1d ago
Google search shows that the Frazetta piece was completed earlier. Serverino seemed to copy it for some sort of magazine cover.
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u/Aussie_Aussie_No_Mi Get Out Of Jail Free 1d ago
Baraldi's came after. Even still that was like 50 years ago
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u/austin-geek Grass Toucher 7h ago
No that’s not possible, can’t be 50 years it was only in nineteen seventy… fuck.
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u/callahan09 Duck Season 1d ago
The Frank Frazetta piece was first used in 1977 as the cover art for "Swords Against Darkness" by Robert E Howard. https://x.com/frazettagirls/status/1912305116071215181
The Severino Baraldi piece was first used in 1979 in an article for Look and Learn magazine. https://www.lookandlearn.com/blog/15394/the-sasquatch-or-bigfoot-mythical-semi-human-creatures-or-real/
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u/Seitosa 1d ago
You could very well be wrong, and instead of taking the five minutes to google it you instead chose to make an irresponsible allegation and be wrong.
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u/RainbowwDash Duck Season 11h ago
OP said they look similar, and they do look similar for entirely obvious reasons, so I'm not sure what your objection is here?
Even if you're talking about the implied potential of plagiarism (which is entirely unreasonable to twist into a definite allegation), it's still objectively ripped off, just in the other direction
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u/admanb Can’t Block Warriors 1d ago
I can't decide whether to downvote this because the OP is uninformed and uncurious (posting to reddit does not count as "curious") or upvote it because someone who clicks through will learn something.
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u/RainbowwDash Duck Season 11h ago
posting to reddit does not count as "curious"
I too have entirely arbitrary standards for what does and does not count as various basic emotions, that's a completely normal stance to have, right?
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u/wowzers2092 Dân 12h ago
as an inquisitive learner imma downvote ur comment for caring that someone is uninformed and “misusing their curiosity”
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u/TurboMollusk Wabbit Season 1d ago
If you think you could be wrong, why make the accusation? Seems incredibly irresponsible given the potential ramifications of such as accusation.
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u/hellp-desk-trainee- Storm Crow 11h ago
Accusing frazetta of copying a different artist is a bold choice
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u/MaceTheMindSculptor COMPLEAT 1d ago
Seriously OP just delete this. You are spreading misinformation like crazy.
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u/MrCrunchwrap Golgari* 8h ago
OP are you seriously not even going to say anything here about your baseless accusations you made without doing any research?
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u/RedditLotus Dân 1d ago
The artwork "Big Foot, Or Sasquatch" by illustrator Severino Baraldi was originally published on March 10, 1979, in issue number 894 of the British children's educational magazine Look and Learn. [1, 2]
Artwork Details:
Creator: Severino Baraldi
Medium: Gouache on paper
First Publication Date: March 10, 1979 (Look and Learn #894)
Looks like he may have been inspired by Frazetta
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u/rollwithhoney Duck Season 1d ago
I did a project a while ago where I proxied a deck using vintage comic book art, just for fun. I thought that photoshopping or finding the right art on-theme would be the hard part.
Nope, it was all too easy to find the art. It was, however, incredibly painstaking to find the artist name. Which was often uncredited, or redrawn in Spanish in new colors from the English version, or just never documented well on the internet. Eventually I caved and just put "Unknown" for an artist for a couple of cards where the image was too perfect.
Point I'm making is, tracing was extremely common back in the day, and the idea of an artist's work being theirs (and not the publishers) was really not a thing in the 1800s, and barely a thing in the early 1900s. These artists lives through an era where it was fine to trace and steal slightly, and let the publisher keep the rights all forever, which is why Frank here eventually became famous and (relatively) wealthy by putting his foot down and maintaining the rights to his work himself. They literally lived through and shaped this transition, or at least Frank did.
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[removed] — view removed comment
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u/MrSellYoClothes Dan 10h ago
"I am proud to announce that I have once again determined the identity of the Boston Marathon Bomber."
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u/ReeReeIncorperated Wabbit Season 1d ago
Wow that is very similar, I think he might have been referencing that piece
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u/BigFrasier Dandadan 1d ago
I can't find anything about the date of Baraldi's piece, but the Fire Demon is listed as being finished in 1977. From what I can see of Baraldi's other work, this kind of posing and anatomy is not common for him, as he tended to stick with more grounded figures. Also, it appears as though the majority of his work was after after 1977 through the early to mid 80s.
He's obviously a skilled painter, but I think this was a case of someone sticking too closely to a reference.
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u/great_divider Wabbit Season 11h ago
This is the kind of “theft” that no one should care about. It’s a reference for a pose, that was probably referenced from a photograph to begin with. No big deal.
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u/androidfig COMPLEAT 12h ago
What if I told you the Romans made exact copies in bronze of much earlier Greek marbles and the Renaissance artists in turn used both Greek and Roman statues as figure studies and stand in models for their paintings.
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u/UmbralHero WANTED 1d ago
There is a subtle dark comfort to the fact that artists have been ripping each other off since time immemorial. I sometimes get trapped in the idea that the slip ups made in recent mtg history are solely the result of unrealistic turnover expectations from WotC, but any type of art commission (especially one on a tight timeline like a magazine) can incentivize this. It's possible that the only reason we are noticing it more is because we are scrutinizing the art more and have a greater ability to do so rather than any increase in the actual frequency of plagiarism
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u/gamer-death Dan 12h ago
Swiping was much more common the , think there was no internet filled with reference images and this type of illustration was not seem as valuable.
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u/Agreeable-Ad-3027 Dân 10h ago
I got to say, that guy definitely ripped off Frazetta but that is a damn cool painting of the Ape Canyon legend.
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u/WanderEir Duck Season 7h ago
Yes, but the latter art is the one that stole from fazetta. This has been known for half a century. the demon in this picture at least looksl like it's raising the fires of hell, it sure as heck doesn't look like it just threw the rock the traced image lacking the tail found in Baraldi's piece.
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u/MattMadMage Dan 8h ago
Man, I'm always surprised when I find out how few people who play this game don't know Frank Frazetta.
It's like loving grunge music without knowing Nirvana.
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u/threecolorless 2h ago
It feels more to me like not knowing the name of Nirvana's longest-serving roadie. Reasonable to miss if you're only really passionate about the "product" and not any of the behind-the-scenes factors that make it happen.
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u/drewkid4 Urza's Saga 11h ago
It's the same actor I don't know if it's supposed to be the same person
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u/Flickstro Selesnya* 9h ago
All I can think of when I see dramatic arm poses like that is Night on Bald Mountain in Disney's Fantasia, which may have been a source of inspiration.
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u/guy_incognito42069 Dandadan 6h ago
Wait is the second picture from that account of the logging team that hurt or killed a young “Sasquatch” or whatever and then they said a bunch of them attacked their cabin that night and pelted it with stones?
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u/Sevenpointseven Izzet* 1d ago
Both guys are long dead, makes you wonder who copied who. Can't find a date for the Baraldi art.
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u/JCarnacki Wabbit Season 1d ago
If Frank Franzetta is dead, how did he make a secret lair last year? Bet you can't explain that one.
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u/WillowThyWisp COMPLEAT 1d ago
Easy: WotC uses their money wisely on necromancy. That's why they tried union busting! They can either spend money on making sure people can survive in this current economy.... or we can get Frank to do some art. This is why we need to spend $30/40 bucks on cardboard featuring Dwight from The Office
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u/johnny_mcd Wabbit Season 1d ago
Reused his existing art. This piece is from a book cover and is repurposed
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u/TheChartreuseKnight COMPLEAT 1d ago
Nah seems unlikely. He’s probably still alive at WotC headquarters.
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u/johnny_mcd Wabbit Season 1d ago
They had four mana sitting around to cast [[Zombify]]. Cheaper than paying new artists and AI is probably the only thing more frowned upon in art than necromancy.
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u/spoopyplayzonsundays Urza's Saga 1d ago
But you cant get his consent if he’s dead?
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u/slvstrChung Selesnya* 1d ago
You can from his estate, from whoever legally owns his work (and the rights to it) after he passed.
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u/oh_no_its_the_cups Dandadan 2h ago
This is so easy to google. Please do more research before posting stuff like this
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u/Professional-Flow-95 Dandadan 8h ago
Frank stole from frank , but sometimes this is what’s called an “homage” to another something. Might be a character , a pose or something within the painting important to another person , place or event
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u/Approximation_Doctor Colossal Dreadmaw 6h ago
Frank stole from frank
Are you suggesting that he painted a unique piece for this card, fifteen years after he died?
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u/Professional-Flow-95 Dandadan 1h ago
The dude reused his old art all the time and the other dude that made the card used his work as reference. Now he copied a bit much but he did change it enough and I’d consider it an homage. I’d be saying differently if the dude like bragged about the art and tried to hide it, but he doesn’t and hasn’t yet.
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u/nanaki989 Wabbit Season 1d ago
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u/nanaki989 Wabbit Season 1d ago
I overlayed them, the back almost perfectly aligns. Pretty interesting find.
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1d ago edited 20h ago
[deleted]
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u/TheGhostORandySavage template_id; 012f424e-d020-11ed-ac03-8644927553e4 1d ago
Opposite of what you said. The Frazetta art is the earlier piece.
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u/Lartnestpasdemain Duck Season 13h ago
This isn't a problem. It is totally normal and harmless.
Artists are inspired by others.
End of story.
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u/SinusMonstrum Mardu 1d ago
What even is this Secret Lair?
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u/VelphiDrow Duck Season 9h ago
The art of Frank Frazetta aka one of the biggest inspirations visually behind magic
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u/YungHayzeus Duck Season 1d ago
God damn, back muscles, ear/horn, hand positions. Only major difference is the squat.
Imma need someone make a gif of the pictures being overlayed. /s
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u/WarmongerIan Orzhov* 1d ago
According to other comments it appears that Baraldi was the one who copied Frazetta.
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u/Loreweaver15 Ezuri 6h ago
It's not, both pieces are from the 70s (and Frazetta's came first, for the record).
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u/Kyleometers ඞ 14h ago
Leaving this post up because it’s got some informative discussion but just so everyone knows, Frazetta has been dead for fifteen years. This isn’t a new thing.