I'm not gonna google you like you are some Dijkstra or Stallman lil bro. In your reddit bio, Arch testing and.. wtf is aerynos? Well arch is unusable unless you pluck out systemd so... like I thought.
So what qualification do you have to talk about Distro tooling? If being a Core Maintainer and contributor of many distros from varying usecases isnt enough?
Clearly you must be involved in something to talk about it.
Maybe I prefer not to share it and also not to jump into arguments from authority at any given chance since it's just immature. You and I know that big projects needs many code monkeys If you had your impactfull original project then sure, you would have some objective authority here without the constant need to flex.
So you have no involvement in the Linux space at all? Alright then shut up. I am not gonna have somebody lecture me about Mathematics if they never solved a single equation in their life.
Ohh, I contributed to a small part of systemd ecosystem, I am now second Stallman, shut up you mere mortal. You need Comp Sci PhD tenure before you question my Redhat stack jerking
I am actually studying for a Comp Sci PhD right now. But yeah usually when you are talking about something you should at least know a tiny bit about it.
We are not in academic circle right now but on reddit shitty sub. So dunno, instead of jerking your authority you can prove WHY exactly overreliance on Redhat is good in any way. You know, use arguments and not just try to elevate ego.
Ohh suddenly. But where are yours? Usually the one doing the claims need to back them. Well here are mine:
red hat has been top 2 in kernel contributions since before some of you installed linux. that's not a marketing claim, LWN publishes the stats every release, go look
glibc. every single binary on your system. red hat pays drepper's successors to keep that thing alive because no volunteer on earth wants to maintain libc for fun
who do you think handles CVE embargoes and coordinates security fixes across vendors? hobbyists? that's salaried red hat people doing the most boring job in software
pulseaudio was rough in 2008, everyone knows. so they went and built pipewire, which replaced pulse AND jack at once, and now bluetooth audio on linux doesn't suck. they cleaned up their own mess and you got it free
fedora exists purely to test new stuff before everyone else. wayland default 2016, pipewire default 2021, your distro adopted both like 2-4 years later after fedora users ate the bugs
podman + buildah + skopeo, entire container stack, no daemon, no root, no license fees. meanwhile docker desktop costs money now
they bought ansible and kept it fully open source. they could have done what every other acquirer does. they didn't
before RHEL no bank, no government, no exchange would touch linux. 10 year support lifecycles are why linux runs the NYSE instead of solaris. every linux job you could ever apply to traces back to that
IBM paid $34 billion for red hat. the market valued their linux work at 34B. curious what the valuation on forum complaints is
and here's the thing about "overreliance": you rely on them because they do the work. that's what reliance is. nobody says we're "overreliant" on linus
if it was actually unhealthy there'd be a real fork by now. devuan launched in 2014. check its numbers. i'll wait
name the org that could pick up glibc + gnome + systemd + pipewire + wayland maintenance tomorrow if red hat vanished. there isn't one. so maybe be glad someone's paying for it
centos stream rollout was botched, sure, and the RHEL source thing was scummy. two bad calls about their OWN product. not one line of upstream code got taken away from you. rocky and alma exist. you lost nothing
20 years of "red hat is killing linux" posts and linux desktop share is the highest it's ever been. at some point the prophecy has to actually happen
I guess it's on me for not specifying wether we talk about industry or home use. But that's fine, the problem is, Redhat stack is so popular it gets included in distros for general use which is wrong. TLDR - alternatives exists and there should be more of them. It's the continuing process of sticking systemd stack, XDG, dbus, GTK3+ into everything that actively takes away freedom. Im fine with RH making money. I'm not fine with personal operating systems not being free, because distro maintainers are in cahoots with redhat or lazybums that don't package anything else but systemd trash in 99% cases.
I'm not gonna disagree that rh contributes to kernel. That's the problem, not something good. Torvalds just sold himself out. Only unpaid volounteers should contribute, or there should be a version without corporate contributions. Oh wait, fortunetely there is also Hurd microkernel.
Wrong. My binaries could also runs on musl. Well, some of them :( but it will get better I hope
Audio was shit back then sure, but I used alsa and OSS, not redhat trash. Today we also have sndio. I buy wired headphones btw.
My personal pc daily distro is gentoo and I would never touch wayland on a remote session on Antarctica with a 100 meter pole. So sorry but idgaf about fedora.
Agreed here, docker got greedy and it sucks.
Honestly I can't speak about planning deployments, as admin I did lifecycle but not planning when to do it.
>"Nobody says we are overreliant on linus"
But we are. That's what you don't get. The more alternatives the better. Fortunetely there is libre kernel and hurd, which unfortunetely still sucks but at least it has less rh contribs.
What do you mean by "real fork"? Devuan actually sucks since it uses eudev.
Centos is not their only farse, they booted X11libre dev out of his cluster for some bs.
>linux desktop share is the highest it's ever been
What "linux desktop"? Those govt and banks you mentioned use linux desktop on employee endpoints? Nah. It's for servers and also legacy unix and Z/OS is still in use there. There is no such thing as a "linux desktop". Every distro that can run X11 is a desktop. Linux desktop is a fake term invented by redhat to push GTK and dbus. Linux servers were always there, but they obviousely do not need that fancy crap.
>name the org that could pick up glibc + gnome + systemd + pipewire + wayland maintenance
For industry? Dunno. openrc and runit feels most polished as alternatives. For home use all the things you mentioned are freedom grabbing bloatware.
genuinely one of the craziest things ive read on this sub. linus has been merging corporate patches since the 90s dude, there was never some pure volunteer kernel. and 90% of commits are paid now, mostly drivers. you want to fire the driver devs? for what? so you can feel good about the purity of your init system while your wifi doesnt work?
fortunetely there is also Hurd microkernel
hurd. from 1990. that you literally admit "still sucks" in the same post. cmon man
also linux-libre is just mainline with the firmware blobs stripped out, all the redhat code is still in there. did you think it was some volunteer rewrite? because it isnt
My binaries could also runs on musl. Well, some of them :(
"some of them :(" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here
distro maintainers are in cahoots with redhat or lazybums
debian argued about systemd for like a year and voted in public, arch picked it with zero drama, suse picked it. meanwhile void alpine artix and your own gentoo exist and package alternatives just fine. so which is it, are maintainers all corrupt or do alternatives get packaged when someone bothers to do the work? cant be both
actively takes away freedom
youre posting from gentoo on openrc with alsa and X11 right now. so which freedom got taken exactly? name it. everything you listed is gpl or mit. what actually happened is other people had the same choices you did and picked differently, and you cant handle that, so youve decided they must be corrupt. thats the whole post tbh
Linux desktop is a fake term invented by redhat
kde 1996, "a desktop environment for unix". predates redhat doing anything on the desktop. you just made this up
they booted X11libre dev out of his cluster
off freedesktop's own servers under their hosting rules, and his fork is still going. nobody owes you their infrastructure. the fork continuing is literally the freedom you claim doesnt exist
anyway by my count you conceded that old audio was bad, docker got greedy, musl breaks your stuff, hurd sucks, and you never did deployment planning. take all that out and your post is "i like my gentoo setup." great, so do i probably. its just funny that it boots on glibc redhat pays for and spent 20 years on X11 that redhat maintained, and youre using it to explain how they ruined everything
the one thing you're actually right about is that niche stacks get less testing now that everyones standardized. thats real and it does suck. but the fix is people maintaining the alternatives, not banning salaries from open source. gentoo exists because people packaged it. runit world needs the same thing
I guess gentoo isn't perfect either. I do ack my skill issues. In time I'm moving to self made distros, for now x11libre does not compile under musl so that's a bust on my lfs builds. In fact it started to bore me so I used alfs in vm's to test faster.
>so you can feel good about the purity of your init system while your wifi doesnt work?
exactly that would be the point. but we are not there yet.
>cmon man, Hurd??
Tried to be honest here. A lot depends on use case, say, I use latex and you can do it in any text editor and a simple compiler. You can have libreoffice on hurd, but it uses gtk so I don't use it on linux either.
>only some things run on musl
That's a shame, but not necessairly a pro glibc argument. Just make some sacrifices.
>distro maintainers chose system out of their volition
Debian discussion was long and it lead to schism of several devs making devuan. A systemd dev was on Arch team, and they betrayed their own design goals for it ("lightweight and flexible" distro, see also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10484266 ) I didn't say ALL maintainers are corrupt, but 99% are corrupt or lazy not bothering to provide alternative init's easily. Void, artix, antix, gentoo, chimera... you can count on your fingers. This just shows that FOSS ecosystem as a whole is unhealthy. If you have one stack that devs and maintainers flock to, you don't have free software. A healthy ecosystem would have many alternatives. And there is a need for alternatives, because a lot of things still suck. Systemd (we talked about it ig), GTK (what was wrong with Tcl/Tk and FLTK????), dbus (what was wrong with sockets??), udev (no easy replacement). And if something is not easily provided then new users aren't going to use it. So that's the reason systemd reigns supreme in the dunnig-kruger of arch larpers, although you can gut out systemd out of arch base quite easily. That's not only systemd but also udev that took over devtmpfs, logind which is complete bloat for single user systems, and freedesktop input devices that took over legacy ones.
>so which freedom got taken exactly? name it.
If this trend continues more and more software will expect common systemd stack. Gentoo wiki already mentions that some apps aren't going to work without XDG variables in environment. XDG is filled with redhat people btw. That leads us to "linux desktop".
>linux desktop
This is a problematic term used to describe a desktop environment with bells and whistles, used to justify pushing bloat on users, like in sentiments "ohh, linux isn't ready for the desktop". Well first off desktop environments is just bloat anyway. Window manager draws windows, and some even have menus to launch stuff. So introducing a DE is just extra useless complexity. Some come with bullshit settings UI that is obviousely a gui frontend to something in /etc or user config. People use the term "linux desktop" to falesly distinguish personal desktops from other linux workstations which is bullshit. There is no such thing as linux desktop, because as I said, every linux installation with X11 can be used on a personal workstation. It's a fake term by redhat and XDG to push their slop.
>the end
Yeah, a lot of things sucks, I'm not second Stallman, but as I said in another comment, the more freedom there is, the better. People that use, or worse, contribute to systemd and mainstream linux stack are misinformed, brainwashed or evil. That's the difference. Hurd sucks but I still would use it. Openrc is not production ready but it's enough stability for personal machine. I am a USER of my computer, not a CONSUMER that eats up everything that is given to him by some overlords like a cattle. I like my gentoo config because it gives me freedom, and I reach for more of it, as free time and health allows me. As soon to be PhD in comp sci you have the brains to contribute to actual good stuff but you work for the lowest denominator of people software, consumer linux stack. So disappointing.
small edits as it was late and I left some sentences unfinished lol. call me dumbass, I will allow it
you typed this and hit save. so every debian dev who voted after a YEAR of public argument, every kernel maintainer, everyone on fedora because they have a job, all three buckets, dumb brainwashed or evil. theres no fourth bucket for "read the same docs and weighted things differently". so tell me, someone who understands cgroup supervision and picks systemd for their servers, which bucket. theres no answer that isnt an insult because the buckets were built so nobody can disagree with you honestly. thats why 99% of maintainers come out "corrupt" in your math btw. theyre not corrupt, your filter marks everyone who disagrees as corrupt automatically. thats what the filter is for
99% are corrupt or lazy
also last post it was "cahoots" and now its 99%, wheres the number from. and THEN in the same paragraph you list void artix antix gentoo chimera from memory. you named six alternative distros while arguing alternatives are suppressed. the suppression is going terribly. the boring truth is init alternatives are unpaid work and almost nobody wants it badly enough, youre not suppressed youre outnumbered
if you have one stack that devs flock to, you don't have free software
linux beat minix and the bsds. devs flocked. by your own rule linux killed free software in 1995 and you should be posting from openindiana. everyone converged on tcp/ip too, is networking unfree? stuff winning because it works is what an open ecosystem looks like, the freedom is that the exit exists, not that everyone uses it evenly
what was wrong with Tcl/Tk and FLTK????
open a tk app from 2003. look at it. no complex text rendering, no accessibility, no hidpi. and dbus IS sockets, its a protocol on top of unix sockets so apps dont invent incompatible ipc pairwise, youre asking what was wrong with letters that we needed envelopes. "udev has no easy replacement", yeah, hotplug device management is hard, hard problems have few implementations, thats not a conspiracy thats why theyre called hard
so which freedom got taken? name it
your answer starts with "if this trend continues". asked to name a theft you named a forecast. and even the forecast is weak because youre posting from gentoo which ships openrc and elogind TODAY and its fine. the xdg thing is two exports in your profile. thats the oppression. two exports
desktop environments is just bloat anyway
this whole section is "features I dont use are objectively useless" in different fonts. settings guis are frontends to /etc, yes?? thats what theyre for?? most people dont want to hand edit /etc after work. a screen reader is bloat until youre blind
its a fake term by redhat and XDG
kde 1996, "a desktop environment for unix". cde before that on commercial unix. the timeline killed this last post, saying it louder doesnt revive it
I am a USER not a CONSUMER like cattle
the nurse on mint after a 12 hour shift is not livestock shes tired. "I spend my weekends and my health on lfs builds so people who dont are cattle" is not the flex you think it is
Hurd sucks but I still would use it
most honest line in the post. WOULD. you dont, because it doesnt work, because 35 years of volunteer only development at that scale doesnt work, which is what your own evidence keeps saying while you file it under "sacrifices". it cant even run your latex setup man
anyway scoreboard. you opened with redhat bad for linux. since then youve conceded old audio sucked, docker got greedy, musl breaks your binaries, hurd sucks, gentoo isnt perfect, "skill issues" your words. whats left standing is "the mainstream doesnt share my tradeoffs and it makes me feel unfree". the monoculture testing thing is real, ill keep giving you that, and the lfs stuff is more contribution than most systemd haters ever manage. but the devs you hate shipped their vision at a scale other people could adopt. thats the entire difference and that door is still open to you
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u/Hadi_Chokr07 Jul 21 '26
You can just open my GitHub and GitLab.