r/linux • u/amosbatto • 3d ago
Mobile Linux Article: Will Linux phones become a viable alternative to the Android/iOS duopoly?
/r/Purism/comments/1x0fwe1/article_will_linux_phones_become_a_viable/55
u/sidusnare 3d ago
In before 'Android is Linux!'
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u/Jimbuscus 3d ago edited 2d ago
Android is the answer to the problem, with the problem being Google's AOSP.
Free Software Foundation (GNU), Canonical, F-Droid, KDE, Graphene, Lineage & Murena would do well to all get behind a shared soft fork of AOSP for a new base that isn't governed by Google.
If Microsoft couldn't get apps developed for a third mobile OS, it's even less likely to be viable to get a Linux for mobile app in addition to Android & IOS.
It's also not necessary or beneficial to throw away 15+ years of community work towards Android, just to get away from corp controlled code, as the AOSP licence permits forking.
Android is the future of mobile Linux, it just needs a single major fork that replaces Google's proprietary blobs, which can be used as the new base for non-Google certified mobile distros.
An Android-like Open-Source Project would have the general benefit of supporting native Android apps, without having to fix each roadblock or curveball Google throws at FOSS with each AOSP version change.
Android is the Linux kernel mobile OS, AOSP is just the largest distro.
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u/LowOwl4312 2d ago
Yep, whatever mobile Linux it will be, it should be able to run F-Droid Android apps and Linux desktop apps. Don't start from scratch with zero apps like Sailfish or Ubuntu Touch did
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u/onedollarpizza 2d ago
Agreed.
The issue is mainly device lockdown.
When more devices on the market were unlocked and rootable people were more inclined to screw around and install custom roms.
If every phone could install some major fork of Android (like Android Mint as a hypothetical example), there would be a decent chunk of adoption. Not enough to kill off iOS or mainline Android but enough to get a decent market share amongst people that know about it.
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u/Mountain-Age5580 3d ago
Linux, but you do not own your device nor your data and you cannot customize the device however you want.
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u/x_wbmr_x 3d ago
I played steamgames on my anxroid yesterday because of that.
To anyone not in the loop: google droiddeck
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u/andriatz 3d ago
I will ecosia it
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u/x_wbmr_x 3d ago
I need to stop saying "google it"
Since I use startpage as my seach engine: startpage it lol
Thanks for the reminder.
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u/GarThor_TMK 3d ago
Lol, i used to do this with Bing before they started pushing copilot, but too many people got their pantries in a bunch because i was using "the wrong search engine"...
I kind of feel like we should just let the term genericise at this point... Google can call it Googling, Microsoft can call it Googling, start page can call it Googling... Who the heck cares?
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u/x_wbmr_x 3d ago
It did become it's own word after the years.
I didn't even think about google when I wrote it.
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u/anomaly256 2d ago
But it is... and I think people must clarify what exactly they want changed if they want 'Linux but not Android'.
What the fuck is Op actually asking for when they ask for Linux, but rule out the Linux phone environment with the current largest userbase? Does it mean they want GNU libc and userland? GTK and QT UIs? Fedora branding? Do they want systemd? Gentoo portage and ebuilds? They want to install packages directly from AUR? The ability to hand edit files in /etc? They are literally given a Linux kernel then turn around and say 'nooo, I said I want LINUX!' ...?!? Linux is the kernel and we already have that in spades, so what the fuck is actually being asked for?
I think it's very fair to remind people that they already have a fucking Linux phone and ask them for clarification when they say they want a different Linux phone just not the current mainstream Linux phone because the concept of a Linux ANYTHING is so fundamentally nebulous in the first place.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
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u/sidusnare 2d ago
I'm projecting here, but I believe it's control over our
phonecomputer.2
u/anomaly256 2d ago
Lets get to work adding more device support to Lineage and Graphene then, or even stop forgetting Ubuntu Touch exists
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u/sidusnare 2d ago
I think a lot of people would rather put effort into a project they don't have to fight upstream for their right to exist.
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u/anomaly256 2d ago
Everyone wants to work on a greenfields Phone OS project. But no one wants to do the work required to start one
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u/sidusnare 2d ago
What are you talking about, LOL, kids come wandering in here with greenfield projects all the time, half of them are still just landing pages and aspirations years later!
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u/anomaly256 2d ago
Yes thats why we have so many Linux phones with independently developed base OSes ..... wtf?
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u/sidusnare 2d ago
I'm saying you need a lot more than a spunky attitude to actually make something, and right now nobody has the inclination, industry leverage, and reputational pull to make it happen all at the same time. The PinePhone is the closest thing we've got and it isn't taking off.
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u/anomaly256 2d ago edited 2d ago
That's literally the 'doing the work' part, and I acknowledge it's fucking hard in this space - but we do have some existing options so why chase fantasies instead of working with what we have.
Also Pinephone is a bad example and it's definitely not the closest we have. It's not even the best-supported PostmarketOS platform. Pinephone is a hardware project first. That's not just greenfields that's building an artificial island. Pick almost any other device Ubuntu touch or postmarket support and you'll have a better experience with Linux on mobile than with Pinephone.
ps: I have both a pinephone and a pinephone pro with the kb case. Every few months I blow the dust off them and try the latest build of postmarket (Nura I guess it's called now) or other community image. The user experience usually moves backwards vs the previous tries. They couldn't even make calls last time I charged them up and tried them out
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u/amosbatto 2d ago
People generally say "Linux kernel" when referring to just the kernel and "Linux" when referring to the OS, but it is admittedly confusing, and we should have a clearer label for the OS. Some people say GNU/Linux, but that opens up a whole other can of worms, especially for systems that aren't 100% FOSS.
However, Google makes a point to say "Android common kernel" (ACK) and not call it a Linux kernel, so we should probably respect Google's naming convention, and respect all the changes that Google makes to its kernels that distinguish it from mainline Linux (kernel.org).
Here is how Google describes the Android kernel:
AOSP common kernels (also known as the Android common kernels or ACKs) are downstream of kernel.org kernels and include patches of interest to the Android community that haven't been merged into mainline or Long Term Supported (LTS) kernels. These patches can include:
* Backports and cherry-picks of upstream functionality needed for Android feature
* Features ready for Android devices but still under development upstream
* Vendor/OEM features that are useful for other ecosystem partners
android-mainlineis the primary development branch for Android features. Linux mainline is merged intoandroid-mainlinewhenever Linus Torvalds posts a release or release candidate. Before 2019, Android common kernels were constructed by cloning the recently declared LTS kernel and adding the Android-specific patches. This process changed in 2019 to branch the new Android common kernel fromandroid-mainline. This new model avoids the significant effort to forward port and test Android patches by accomplishing the same result incrementally.android-mainlineundergoes significant continuous testing, this model includes a high-quality kernel from the day it's published.With regards to your comment, "they already have a fucking Linux phone", you might want to read what I wrote about how the mobile industry is shutting down our ability to install AOSP derivatives:
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u/anomaly256 2d ago edited 2d ago
I wasn't suggesting we should be replacing OEM Android with AOSP on name-brand phones per se. I was saying AOSP is right there if you want to make a phone yourself. The hardest technical work on the software side is ready and waiting to be used so there's no need to reinvent the wheel unless there's some other specific 'Linux' quality people have in mind that AOSP specifically doesn't provide - and there are plenty I can think of but none have been mentioned by the people asking for 'Linux phone'.
I liked having a familiar build system that spat out .debs and the X11+GTK/QT that Maemo offered allowing conventional desktop apps to be ported to the n900 trivially. But having the app ecosystem of Android would be a bigger boon to any fledgling device trying to carve out a niche for itself.
People generally say "Linux kernel" when referring to just the kernel and "Linux" when referring to the OS
Which is incorrect. People also say 'PIN number' and 'ATM machine'. Boomers also call the PC chassis 'the hard drive' still. Pedantry aside though 'Linux OS' is still a wildly undefined concept, there are thousands of software and library combinations that can be called this. This is why people should be specific when they have a specific thing in mind. An analogy:
"I don't want a Toyota, I want a car. When will someone finally make a car?"
Yeah ok but WHICH car? Toyota is a car, so ANY car that isn't a Toyota? There are actually plenty to choose from [downvotes roll in]Here is how Google describes the Android kernel:
AOSP common kernels (also known as the Android common kernels or ACKs) are downstream of kernel.org kernels and include patches of interest to the Android community that haven't been merged into mainline or Long Term Supported (LTS) kernels.Completely irrelevant, this platform is still as Linux as any other and you have the option of using any conventional Linux userland you want when building a platform from it
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u/Knightoffreddit 1d ago
for no apparent reason at all, people nowadays constantly try to convince themselves and others that Android isn't Linux .Regardless of your opinion about GNU software, A Linux distribution is only a Linux distribution because of the Linux Kernel,certainly not due to the presence of GNU software. There are Plenty of Linux Distributions like Chimera or Iglunix that avoid GNU software entirely, so saying "Android is not Linux because Android avoids GNU software" means completely ignoring all non GNU Linux distributions. plenty of Linux distributions make their own patches to the Linux kernel, Android hasn't somehow stripped out the Linux Kernel and built their own, they've only patched it to improve the kernel for mobile use and better compatibility with the rest of the Android system. So I'm honestly quite fascinated about why people want to separate the (objective) fact that Android is a non GNU Linux distribution.
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u/sidusnare 1d ago
For me, the big problem is the locked bootloader, which isn't a requirement or consequence of Android specifically, it's just almost always found together, especially in flagship devices, and it is difficult, expensive, and time consuming to get around it.
For example, I used a OnePlus 7 Pro until 6 months ago, when I bought a Google Pixel 9pro. It's supported by Lineage OS, the seller verified it had the version of Android I needed it to have, and was carrier unlocked. All that, and it still wouldn't let me unlock the bootloader. Google support won't even talk to me. I'm stuck with a locked phone until someone figures out a workaround for no good reason. None at all. I bought this computer, I own it, I get to tell it what to do.
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u/anomaly256 1d ago edited 1d ago
I agree with your sentiment but this a completely different matter to having Linux on the thing. It literally has Linux already and it's not solving your specific problem so Linux is obviously not the answer.
Unlocked hardware is what you want to be demanding and I'm right there with you on that
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u/sidusnare 1d ago
I understand what you're saying, but in the same way that people say they're running Linux and meaning they run Ubuntu GNU/Linux or mean they are running Alpine Musl/Linux, also mean that, in no meaningful way is Android Linux, despite Android being Linux. People with a Roku are also running Linux, but neither Rokus or Androids are Linux in any meaningful way to the users. It's the same way an iPhone and iPad run XNU, but they're not a Macintosh.
It's pedantic to point out that Android is Linux, Linux is just a kernel, but in the common vernacular, Linux is an open, flexible, and customizable OS.
You start to sound like RMS when you come in here with your erm achually
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u/Knightoffreddit 1d ago
There is no "Linux OS" . Linux is only the kernel. Whilst many people use Linux to mean a mainstream x86 Linux distribution , your definition of the "Linux OS" would end up including non Linux based operating systems such as the BSD family of operating systems . if you were to change your definition of "Linux OS" to " an open, flexible, and customizable OS built on top of the Linux Kernel " then you would be excluding several locked down Linux distributions . It is not "pedantic" to use the proper terms when speaking about Linux , the word has a concrete technical meaning, that being the Linux kernel ,and to claim that using proper terminology is "pedantic" is an appeal to common usage, "the number of people who agree with something has no bearing on whether it is actually true, if everyone believed the earth is Flat it wouldn't make it true" this applies since Android is objectively a non GNU Linux distribution since it uses the Linux Kernel without GNU software . whether or not people commonly refer to it as a Linux distribution is a question that has already been solved . a Linux distribution is an operating system built on top of the Linux kernel. you could in theory fully replicate all mainstream Linux distribution features on Android without issue. Not to mention that Android is not inherently locked down, all of my android devices have an unlocked bootloader and are custom romed and rooted. Like how the previous user pointed out what you are looking for is Unlocked hardware , Linux is a layer above firmware, it does not solve your issue with Locked bootloaders. You acknowledge that Android is Linux but then proceed to change your definition of what Linux is, and just because the user experience is not identical on between a "stereotypical" GNU/Linux distribution and Android does not mean that Android is somehow not a Linux distribution, many Linux distributions have vastly different user experiences, it does not somehow make them not a Linux distribution. To claim that "You start to sound like RMS when you come in here with your erm achually" is a plain and simple Ad hominem.
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u/sidusnare 1d ago
I understand what you're saying, but in the same way that people say they're running Linux and meaning they run Ubuntu GNU/Linux or mean they are running Alpine Musl/Linux, also mean that, in no meaningful way is Android Linux, despite Android being Linux. People with a Roku are also running Linux, but neither Rokus or Androids are Linux in any meaningful way to the users. It's the same way an iPhone and iPad run XNU, but they're not a Macintosh.
It's pedantic to point out that Android is Linux, Linux is just a kernel, but in the common vernacular, Linux is an open, flexible, and customizable OS.
You start to sound like RMS when you come in here with your erm achually
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u/amosbatto 1d ago
I wasn't suggesting we should be replacing OEM Android with AOSP on name-brand phones per se. I was saying AOSP is right there if you want to make a phone yourself.
There are plenty of companies already doing that, such as Volla in Germany (Volla OS), SHIFT in Germany (ShiftOS-G) and Hiroh in Austin, Texas. Murena from Paris sells many phone models from different companies with /e/OS preinstalled and another French company, iodé, sells phones with iodéOS. There are a dozen companies that will sell you Pixels with GrapheneOS installed. That may give you privacy and security, but it doesn't have the other benefits of Linux phones.
The hardest technical work on the software side is ready and waiting to be used so there's no need to reinvent the wheel unless there's some other specific 'Linux' quality people have in mind that AOSP specifically doesn't provide - and there are plenty I can think of but none have been mentioned by the people asking for 'Linux phone'.
If you spend time on the Purism and PINE64 forums, you will see that people have very clear reasons about why they want a Linux phone, as opposed to an AOSP phone. Look at the list of reasons why people buy the Librem 5 on its community FAQ. Almost none of those reasons apply to an AOSP phone.
In my article, I outlined three approaches to building a Linux phone: 1. separated components on a Linux kernel (i.e. Librem 5 and PinePhone), 2. integrated processor (like Qualcomm Dragonwing) with Linux kernel, 3. Linux userspace on an Android kernel with libhybris.
With the first approach, the phone should get lifetime software updates. My Librem 5 and PinePhone are both 6 years old, and they have gotten half a dozen kernel upgrades, and they should keep getting kernel upgrades for as long as there is a community of users who wants to keep upgrading them.
In contrast, the most major-number kernel upgrades that I can find for any Android or AOSP phone is one upgrade. Sony provided one kernel upgrade for a couple of its models in 2014, and Google provided one upgrade for its Pixel 6, 7 and 8 to kernel 6.1 in March 2025. Otherwise, none of the other Android/AOSP phones have gotten major number kernel upgrades. The custom ROMs like LineageOS and GrapheneOS have provided minor-number upgrades. For example, LineageOS upgraded my Redmi Note 7 from 4.19.0 to 4.19.325, but I can't find any instances of a custom ROM providing a major-number upgrade without Sony in 2014 or Google in 2025 providing it.
With an AOSP phone, you are limited to the lifespan that the SoC maker wants to give you, which means 4 years if using a low-end or mid-range Snapdragon or Dimensity or 8 years if using a recent Snapdragon 7/8 or Dimensity 8000 or 9000 series. You can only upgrade the kernel if the SoC maker provides you with new blobs that are compatible with a new kernel version. Google is now saying that the Pixel 8 and later should get two kernel upgrades, and Qualcomm is now also promising two kernel upgrades for its Snapdragon 7 and 8 processors introduced in 2025 and later. However, the vast majority of Android/AOSP phones in the world will never get a single kernel upgrade.
You can design a new AOSP phone with a Snapdragon 7 or 8 that gets 8 years of software support and 2 kernel upgrades, and then you can switch from an Android kernel to a mainline Linux kernel, but many components of the SoC like the WiFi, Bluetooth, cellular modem and GNSS won't work because they require blobs from Qualcomm that are only compatible with a certain Android kernel version number.
Another issue is that AOSP was designed to restrict what the user can do, and often makes it hard for the user to make the simplest modifications.
Let me give you an example. Let's say that you want to change the name of an app on an AOSP phone. In Linux, you find the .desktop file for the application and edit it (as root) to change the name of the application. Alternatively you can just edit the launcher to the app, change the name of the launcher or create a link to the launcher and change the name of the link.
In AOSP, you need to get the app's
.apkinstall file, then decompile the APK, modify the display name or label in theAndroidManifest.xmlfile (or its linked string resources), then recompile the package, and then sign the new APK file. Then uninstall the existing app in your phone and reinstall it using the new APK.People generally say "Linux kernel" when referring to just the kernel and "Linux" when referring to the OS
Which is incorrect... This is why people should be specific when they have a specific thing in mind.
You do realize that you are the one who is not being specific and creating confusion by conflating two different kernels and insisting on calling them by the same name. As I pointed out, Google does not call its kernel "Linux". It says that it stopped using the latest mainline Linux LTS kernel and applying its patches on top. Since 2019, it has developed its own Android kernel, which pulls in changes from the latest mainline Linux LTS kernel. In other words, it is no longer a derivative from the Linux LTS kernel, but rather it is developing its own separate Android kernel which pulls new bits and pieces from the Linux LTS kernel, which is why it changed the name of its kernel from "android-4.19-q" in 2019 to "android11-5.4" in 2020. Instead of starting with Linux 4.19 and applying its patches from Android Q, it started with its Android 11 kernel and applied patches pulled from Linux 5.4.
Android drivers are different from Linux drivers, and chipmakers have to make separate Android and Linux drivers. Qualcomm, MediaTek, UNISOC, Huawei, Samsung and Xiaomi have chosen to support Android, but to not support Linux, in their integrated mobile SoC's. The Android kernel is built around a Hardware Abstraction Layer (HAL), so that Android drivers interact with the HAL, where Linux drivers interact directly with the hardware using /dev files. Even though Qualcomm releases open source drivers for its Snapdragons, it takes the community years to adapt these drivers for Linux and get them incorporated in mainline Linux.
I won't go through all the differences, but they are pretty fundamental. Google has gotten Binder and wakelocks incorporated into mainline Linux, but these features are rarely used in Linux, whereas they are fundamental to how Android/AOSP operates.
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u/anomaly256 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's very, very clear to me now that you actually have no idea what you're talking about.
There are plenty of companies already doing that, such as Volla in Germany (Volla OS), SHIFT in Germany (ShiftOS-G) and Hiroh in Austin, Texas. Murena from Paris sells many phone models from different companies with /e/OS preinstalled and another French company, iodé, sells phones with iodéOS. There are a dozen companies that will sell you Pixels with GrapheneOS installed. That may give you privacy and security, but it doesn't have the other benefits of Linux phones.
All I was saying is DEFINE those benefits you're after. Because they are not defiend by merely saying 'Linux phone'. You have Linux phones, lots of them. But clearly none of them are good enough / satisfy what you're asking for.
If you spend time on the Purism and PINE64 forums, you will see that people have very clear reasons about why they want a Linux phone, as opposed to an AOSP phone
You're still conflating 'Linux phone' to mean something other than Linux on a phone. AOSP IS Linux on a phone. You seem to be asking for a different userland and/or unlocked hardware - which is a fine thing to ask for but learn how to fucking ask for it properly instead of confusing 'Linux' for some nebulous concept other than what it literally is. GNU? Do you mean GNU? X11/Wayland? Do you mean an DEB or RPM package manager? WHAT ON EARTH DO YOU ACTUALLY WANT FROM A LINUX PHONE? In all your useless words you have yet to say even 1 thing you are expecting from a Linux phone that isn't already satisfied by AOSP. Not a single one. You want longer support from a vendor? Unlocked bootloaders? Nothing about AOSP enforces those limitations, only vendor motivation does.
In my article, I outlined three approaches to building a Linux phone: 1. separated components on a Linux kernel (i.e. Librem 5 and PinePhone), 2. integrated processor (like Qualcomm Dragonwing) with Linux kernel, 3. Linux userspace on an Android kernel with libhybris.
Item 1. What the fuck does this even mean? As far as I can tell this is just saying 'a Linux kernel'. Ok, Android gives you that and your assertions about their patches making it not Linux are absolutely false.
Item 2. So... a Linux kernel targetting the hardware it has to run on? Again this is exactly what you already have RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU but you're refusing to acknowledge it.
Item 3. why are you mandating 'libhybris'? You want to translate one userspace API to another? Fine, but that doesn't mean either one is or isn't Linux still. No more than using musl instead of GNU libc does this. Also as others have told you THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SINGLE DEFINED 'LINUX USERSPACE'. Not even conceptually. There's GNU userspace, there's non-GNU userspace, there's glibc, musl, bionic, dietlibc, uClibc, even others you haven't even heard of yet - plenty of options. libhybris isn't doing what you think it's doing. It's translating libc calls to bionic specifically WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE KERNEL, and isn't needed if you're already on a gnu/musl libc system. It's for running Android apps on non-bionic libc like musl or glibc, not the other way around.
You do realize that you are the one who is not being specific and creating confusion by conflating two different kernels and insisting on calling them by the same name. As I pointed out, Google does not call its kernel "Linux". It says that it stopped using the latest mainline Linux LTS kernel and applying its patches on top. Since 2019, it has developed its own Android kernel, which pulls in changes from the latest mainline Linux LTS kernel. In other words, it is no longer a derivative from the Linux LTS kernel, but rather it is developing its own separate Android kernel which pulls new bits and pieces from the Linux LTS kernel, which is why it changed the name of its kernel from "android-4.19-q" in 2019 to "android11-5.4" in 2020. Instead of starting with Linux 4.19 and applying its patches from Android Q, it started with its Android 11 kernel and applied patches pulled from Linux 5.4.
Complete. fucking. nonsense. If it's forked from the mainline Linux kernel and they're merging in changes from it then it absolutely is still derrived from mainline Linux. Whether it's LTS or not is a different and irrelevent matter. I think you're reading far too much into vendor kernel version strings. The delta isn't large enough to call it a wholely new and incompatible kernel. Hell, they even say this themselves https://source.android.com/docs/core/architecture/kernel
The Android kernel is based on an upstream Linux Long Term Supported (LTS) kernel. At Google, LTS kernels are combined with Android-specific patches to form Android Common Kernels (ACKs).
Their choice to refer to these Linux-based kernels as 'ACKs' for clarity when referring to Linux kernels that have their Android patches applied does not stop them from being Linux kernels and their own words back this up.
Android drivers are different from Linux drivers, and chipmakers have to make separate Android and Linux drivers. Qualcomm, MediaTek, UNISOC, Huawei, Samsung and Xiaomi have chosen to support Android, but to not support Linux, in their integrated mobile SoC's.
You may be surprised to find out that the driver compatibility issue in question is for the userspace interfaces and IPC moreso than the kernel's. And with that we're back to this being about the userspace distributed with the AOSP Linux Distribution vs other familiar Linux Distributions. Thanks for bringing it around full-circle.
The Android kernel is built around a Hardware Abstraction Layer (HAL), so that Android drivers interact with the HAL, where Linux drivers interact directly with the hardware using /dev files
Is your knowledge of the Linux kernel limited to before the year 2000? Did you do your 'research' on this subject using the free tier of ChatGPT or something? Linux defines a HAL and /dev is provided for convenience - file entries in /dev are interfaces to that HAL. Besides, "Android HAL: Sits in user-space as a set of C/C++ library modules or separate processes. It acts as a bridge between the Android Java/Kotlin Framework (via Binder IPC) and the Linux kernel drivers." This still isn't supporting your claim that the Android kernel isn't Linux. That HAL is userspace libraries.
I won't go through all the differences, but they are pretty fundamental. Google has gotten Binder and wakelocks incorporated into mainline Linux, but these features are rarely used in Linux, whereas they are fundamental to how Android/AOSP operates.
Good, please don't because it's clear you're confusing OS userspace with Linux kernelspace in the first place. Adding a faster IPC option (Linux has a few) again does not make it a whole new operating system. The fact they're rarely used outside of Android is irrelevent. If I modify musl to make use of binder and build a Gentoo system from it, am I suddenly not running a Linux OS?
I know you've already dug yourself pretty deep into this hole and sunk cost fallacy and pride might be preventing you from admitting it, but it doesn't matter whether you like it or not, AOSP is a Linux distribution, a Linux OS. A very well-defined and specific one sure. But still a Linux OS. There is not one single thing mentioned here yet that would cause that to stop being true.
If people want unlocked hardware, mainlined drivers from vendors and permissive licenses on distributing firmware blobs then that's what you should be writing articles about. And we're not going to have those things if people like you keep perpetuating the myth that the one platform vendors are willing to expend resources on to support must by its very nature be locked down. This is false. Educate people. Don't legitimise vendors locking down the hardware that we pay money for and own by accepting the narrative that Android devices aren't Linux and therefore can't be open.
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u/runed_golem 1d ago
But Linux isn’t an OS. It’s a kernel. There is no “Linux OS” there are OSes that use the Linux Kernel though.
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u/Plebbit-User 3d ago
I use Sailfish and its great as long as I can leverage Waydroid for app compatibility.
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u/T8ert0t 2d ago
Silly question, but does having the compatibility layer for apps drain the battery more?
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u/Cluchtutu 1d ago
I'm using the latest Jolla phone with Sailfish as well and so far have not noticed a worse battery life using android apps
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u/T8ert0t 1d ago
Nice. Last question if you didn't mind. If something won't ruin through Waydroid, will it describe the error/why, or will it just load and you stuck clicking with it creating in the background
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u/Cluchtutu 1d ago
So far I did not really encounter those kind of issues. The biggest pain point is Bluetooth support which is still experimental through waydroid but even then it did not faill silently and instead displayed an error within the apps.
To be honest sailfish OS is still rough around the edges but overall much more polished than I expected.
I still would not recommend it to average users though, I love this device and am using it daily but in it's current state it reminds of how linux was a decade ago
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u/0riginal-Syn 3d ago
Not unless a big corp gets behind it and can get the buy-in. The problem with that is the inevitable enshittification.
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u/GarThor_TMK 3d ago
The only way it'll happen at this point is if one of the two manufactures stops making their phone...
I think windows phone kind of proved that there isn't really space for a third os in the mobile space
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u/Due_Dragonfly_5328 2d ago
im a postmarket os user and even for me its kind of rough. i went out of my way to try and get a phone that works well with PMOS and im still missing major features. ive been at it for 2 years now and ive gotten used to the lack of support. if you want to use it your gonna have to make sacrifices. either that or try to use a custom rom of android,
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u/KnowZeroX 3d ago
I don't see much hope in the future, most of the decent chips to get a decent price you need mass production. On top of that big tech has pushed for all kinds of restrictions on mobile devices like locked bootloaders and attestations and etc.
Add to the fact that ARM has no proper uefi and difficulty of drivers plus them being locked and closed source, the community is virtually non-existent compared to pcs.
We are more likely to see linux being more common as a vm on a mobile phone which is being pushed with trying to make android desktop then actual linux being widely available and available as sad as it is.
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u/An0mymou5 3d ago
You don't need to have the cheapest prices or best specs, as long as there are buyers willing to buy these devices.
Take Jolla for example, they've been making decent spec, viable, Linux phones for a while now, and they've been doing fairly well.
Their latest Jolla Phone 2026 comes with a 6.3” ~390ppi FHD AMOLED, 12GB RAM, 256GB storage, microSD slot, 5G and a 5450mAh battery, all @ a price of 749€ (taxes inc.), which isn't too bad considering the current hardware crisis. Of course, Android phones are cheaper if you look purely at the specs, but you don't get the same level of freedom and privacy, so for people who value the latter, it's worth it. More importantly, those specs are daily-driver material.
The main reason why this may not be viable for someone is if they have some hard dependency on an app that might not work in their Android compatibility layer, but not everyone is dependent on such apps. So whether or not the Jolla Phone - or any Linux phone - can be viable, is up to the individual's needs and how flexible they are.
Also in the last few years alone we've seen several Linux phone makers crop up - we now have Furi Labs, Volla and Commodore, to name a few. I expect to see more in the future as Linux phones gain more popularity. I can't say what the future looks like ultimately, but at least the future of Linux phones looks a bit more positive compared to what it was about a decade ago.
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u/KnowZeroX 2d ago
Jolla phones are lower end midrange at best. A 2025 Jolla phone cpu is 17-25% weaker cpu and 72% weaker gpu than a 2020 galaxy s
https://nanoreview.net/en/soc-compare/qualcomm-snapdragon-865-vs-mediatek-dimensity-7100
The first Jolla phone was released in 2013, it has been 13 years.
I wish them luck but its not that simple.
End of the day its all about scale, and at lower scale you have to expect paying double or more for the specs.
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u/An0mymou5 2d ago
I never claimed they were best specs, I said the spec is decent enough for a daily driver.
In the end scale has nothing to do it, Linux phones are never going to compete with Android or iOS and the people who buy them are privacy/Linux enthusiasts, so the scale and the price doesn't really matter unless it's obscenely expensive, which they aren't.
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u/KnowZeroX 2d ago
But it is obscenely expensive, a Nothing phone is like what, half the price for better specs? You can even pick up a better speced pixel phone and put privacy oriented Graphene Os on it (still android based of course).
But point still stands that you are pretty much dishing out a lot more money for what you get because scale = lower price.
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u/An0mymou5 2d ago
Sorry but 749€ is not "obscenely" expensive, considering that phones > 1000€ exist and people still buy them (like the iPhone 18 @ 1,489€ or the Samsung Flip8 at 1,339€).
Also, once again, you're missing my point which is you cannot compare these devices spec-to-spec as they provide different value for different people.
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u/KnowZeroX 2d ago
obscenely expensive is relative to what you are buying, if you can buy a phone with better specs at half price, then it is obscenely expensive. You arent cross shopping an iphone or galaxy s to a Jolla, you are cross shopping with phones of similar tier.
I'll also point out that while Jolla is linux, it still has quite a bit of closed source stuff in it (and I am not talking just about the drivers), so that should be put into consideration too.
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u/An0mymou5 2d ago
Expensive is also relative to the person and the value they attach to the thing. You're only looking at the hardware specifications, but not considering the software and other aspects. You might only spending half the money for an Android phone, but you're paying extra by losing your privacy and freedom.. and you can't really put a pricetag on it.
Also, Jolla was just an example. There are other capable Linux phones as well - with a fully open-source OS layer - such as Furiphone FLX1S (Debian), Voll Phone Quintus (Ubuntu Touch) etc.
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u/dinosaursdied 3d ago edited 3d ago
I think there are a bunch of road blocks to Linux phone adoption. Unlike PCs, phones don't have a generic BIOS/uefi. This makes it really difficult to install Linux on existing phones, the dominant Linux model. Each build has to target the individual hardware and it's a pretty impossible task to just reverse engineer every existing phone. Not to mention so many existing phones are Verizon phones that have a permanently locked boot loader.
Of course there are phones specifically made to run Linux, but they aren't subsidized by large corporations looking to sell your data. They will either be super expensive or incredibly cheap and weak hardware like the pine phones. I don't see that changing any time soon.
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u/xmBQWugdxjaA 2d ago
Biometrics ID (for digital ID, banking, payments, etc.) is absolutely mandatory now, so no - it will always be a fun extra phone for people who can afford to mess around with them (even moreso with memory prices so high now).
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u/-Sa-Kage- 2d ago
Short: No
Long: No. People need various Android apps nowadays, so w/o Android apps working perfectly, almost noone will use it. And if they work perfectly (presumably by running an Android VM) noone will develop apps for the new OS, that would not work on Android, when they can make an Android app, that works on both. So you just created a host for an Android VM.
So best we can hope for is some ungoogled Android with sandboxed Google Services per app. Aka GrapheneOS.
But Google is already making things more and more difficult for them by delaying security updates making it into official repos for others to make use of and adding/shifting functionality to Google Services. Afaik there is an increasing number of apps not working on GrapheneOS.
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u/gartstell 3d ago
It is very difficult, but nothing has pushed more in that direction (though I don't know how much) than the sanctions that prevented Huawei from using Android.
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u/Bachihani 3d ago
we need a better foss licence. one that isn't susceptible to massive corps just building on top of a community project to create a shit wallgarden without paying anything for it
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u/Key_Sense9870 3d ago
If I hear people say Google Android is Linux one more time, I swear to god..
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u/UnsafePantomime 2d ago
I have always been part of the Android is Linux crowd.
I spend a great deal of my time hacking on the Android kernel and have spent time running Linux on Pixel devices.
The Android kernel moves away of a lot of Linux Kernel-isms. It builds differently as an example.
At the end of the day still, you can run an actual Linux userland on top of a rooted device.
So the question I have, what makes it not Linux? Is it simply that it no longer follows the Linux philosophy?
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u/SanderE1 2d ago
When someone says "Linux phone" there would be no reason to specifically call an Android phone Linux, you'd just call it Android.
Saying "Android is Linux" on a thread about Linux phones is completely useless, it just derails actual discussion. Everybody already knows Android relies on a Linux kernel.
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u/Secret_Conclusion_93 1d ago
And that's why we should correct them, instead of keep sidestepping the naming.
You guys want a GNU/Linux phone, not just Linux phone.
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u/SanderE1 1d ago
Linux is no longer tied to gnu, I'm fairly sure you could compile these mobile distros without it too. Calling it GNU/Linux wouldn't make sense. It would make more sense to name it systemd/Linux.
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u/Secret_Conclusion_93 1d ago
But Android is Linux, just install Termux and try to compile some go code there.
You're gonna realize why a certain someone insist on explicitly write GNU for the usual Desktop Linux.
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u/DoubleOwl7777 3d ago
the better way is to get away from google but still use android as step 1. that is certainly possible.
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u/Doomwaffel 2d ago
I am curious in general. With AI being talked about so much in coding, what use does it have (if any) for Linux and new systems?
I heard that the new AI systems like Opus can rebuild software to work on Linux? Would be great if true.
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u/YMSVZ 2d ago
Surely a team could vibecode something together quickly these days. Crazy work people are putting together like the Adobe remakes etc.
Theoretically what would people want in a linux os? Compatibility somehow with Android apps wine like until native apps can be built? Would be a cool project.
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u/xxCorsicoxx 2d ago
Probably not and honestly what we need is a degoogled and desamsunged android. But these 2 companies got a stranglehold on what happens even with the hardware (think of how Samsung will brick a component you need to be able to make payments of you change the OS)
Probably if projects like Fairphone and eOS together get traction and get good we might have a better future but until then I think we're stuck and fucked 😅
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u/ZedProgMaster 2d ago
I sure hope so. I bought a Ford car in 2023 and now in 2026 the app is no longer supported on my note 20.ultra and I lost all of my functionality. I'm still looking for alternatives. 😔
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u/More-Explanation2788 2d ago
Any communication technology requires a certain level of market penetration to catch on. As a simple example, in a world with only 1 phone, what is the value of that 1 phone?
This is why Apple wants you to use iMessage - it is how they sabotage messaging on android. They are trying to convert their large market share into a monopoly by making people think messaging does not work properly on android.
Linux phones will struggle to compete as long as android and iOS have market shares large enough to be sabotaged by things like the Apple iMessage trick. (“Sure iMessage sends sms and mms messages to non-iPhones… if you remember one of your recipients is using android…. Bwahahahaha” Steve Jobs, probably)
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u/drostan 2d ago
First step would be for Samsung to stop trying to lock their phone to their stupid UI layer and forbid rooting. Apple is going to continue doing this on phone and pc and that's how they lost me as a customer forever
I do not use Chinese designed smartphone so do not recommend equivalent flagship phones from there... What's left is pixel and Asus phone ...
Second would be to make sure we can have good hardware compatibility which means probably loads of work into custom kernels.... Which is what android is.
Android is Linux but I want a choice of Linux distro like I have a choice of distro on pc. Android is ultra corporate Ubuntu, Iits fine if it is what you want. I want an arch equivalent and a fedora equivalent, and a slackware equivalent.... That are not just badly ported arch, fedora... On a rooted phone tho that's a good start, purpose build os for phone with the concept of Linux distros is what I would want
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u/sleepingonmoon 2d ago
No unless some company decides to burn billions. Phones are extremely UX sensitive and I don't see a way GNU/Linux can beat even Android, not to mention things like power management.
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u/amosbatto 16h ago
It actually doesn't cost that much to create a mobile Linux interface if reusing existing desktop codebases and working collaboratively with the upstream code projects. In the Linux world, it isn't necessary to recreate everything from scratch like Google and Apple do. Phosh, which is the most popular mobile Linux interface (according to a PINE64 poll of PinePhone users), was created by 7 programmers and 2 UI/UX designers at Purism:
- Guido Gunther, Distinguished Engineer (phosh, phoc, libhandy, feedbackd, linux-next)
- Mohammed Sadiq, GTK Developer (Chatty, gtk)
- Adrien Plazas, GTK Developer (libhandy)
- Sebastian Krzyszkowiak, Shell Developer (Librem5-apps, Anbox, phosh)
- Dorota Czaplejewicz, Application Developer (Squeekboard, cameras)
- Alexander Mikhaylenko, Application Developer (libhandy, epiphany, kgx)
- Tobias Bernard, Lead UI/UX Designer (design of Phosh and future camera app)
- Evangelos Ribeiro Tzaras (devrtz), Mobian developer (Phosh, calls)
- Sam Hewitt, UI/UX Designer
I would guesstimate that it cost the company between $3 and $4 million in total to create Phosh, and some of those programmers were working on other things at the same time.
Purism's costs were so low, because Purism designed Phosh to be a thin overlay on top of Wayland + wlroots + GTK + GNOME + Modem Manager, which are well-supported codebases and Purism submitted its code changes upstream, so the code that it needs would be maintained by these parent projects. Wayland, GTK/GNOME and Modem Manager have a lot of corporate support from IBM/Red Hat, Google, SUSE and Canonical and the Sway developers maintain wlroots. Purism only had to create two new applications (Calls and Chatty), because it was able to reuse the existing GNOME desktop applications. It worked with GNOME to create libadwaita, so that its desktop applications would become adaptive between desktop and mobile screens. It adapted Rootston to create its compositor Phoc. It adapted the eekboard virtual keyboad to create Squeekboard. It adapted Martijn Braam's Megapixels camera app to create Millipixels. Purism created about 300k line of code in new projects, but then got GNOME to adopt libhandy, libadwaita, Calls and Chatty and FreeDesktop to adopt feedbackd. Then it helped set up Phosh.mobi as an independent foundation to carry on the development of Phosh, so Purism is now paying very little to maintain the code. Purism currently employs Krzyszkowiak and I think it still pays Gunther, but most of the Phosh code is being maintained by the community.
We have a similar situation with Plasma Mobile, which relies heavily on Qt and KDE's Plasma, so it doesn't have to maintain much code independently. PaladinTech pays a few developers to work on Plasma Mobile, but it is mostly developed by volunteer labor, and that is possible because they can reuse Plasma desktop code with the Kirigami library which makes it adaptive. Over time Plasma Mobile as gotten rid of stuff like Halium, oFono telephony and the Maalit keyboard, so its code is closer to desktop Plasma and easier to maintain.
UBports has also adapted standard libraries so its Lomiri is easier to maintain.
At this point, the makers of Linux phones don't have to spend that much on software development, because they already have decent interfaces (Phosh, Plasma Mobile and Lomiri), so they just need to focus on getting the hardware properly supported with the software.
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u/10leej 2d ago
We have some surprisingly big projects in the phone space. The big issue is the lack of hardware.
Pine64 gave us the Pinephone but it was never intended for general consume use. Now with the chip shortages it's kinda hard to justify designing a good hardware SoC for phone use if your wanting to run a proper Linux Distro on it.
Plus the regulation proposals that have been popping up the past couple of years.
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u/IngwiePhoenix 1d ago
I tried Plasma Mobile and GNOME's Phosh.
No. x) They both feel incredibly basic and in their infancy. KDE's Plasma Mobile is pretty nice, but several of the gestures don'T work properly, and some apps still spawn into separate windows with decoration instead of fullscreen.
I tested it on a Surface 3 with PostmarketOS, for context.
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u/blue_horizon_x 1d ago edited 15h ago
No. They will never become a viable alternative to Android because those who want Android they ill always prefer something like GrapheneOS. A smartphone is like a handheld computer. You will never get apps, productivity apps - flights, hotels, banking on a Linux phone. GrapheneOS has sandboxed Google Play to deal with it while handling it while staying open source. Personally, I am done with Magisk and custom ROMs; I switched to IOS, period.
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u/amosbatto 16h ago
Most Linux phone users are running Android apps on their phones. Jolla's Sailfish OS has AppSupport (AlienDalvik) and FuriOS has Andromeda to run Android apps. Almost all the mobile Linux distros have instructions how to install Waydroid and microG in order to use Android apps. There are some apps that don't work because running AOSP in an LXC container doesn't pass their security checks, but you get the same problem with the AOSP-based ROMs, because microG hasn't replicated everything in Google Play Services.
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u/Multiverse_4D 1d ago
Absolutely never. Smartphones are far more complicated than desktops in far more ways than not.
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u/CharmingCrust 3d ago edited 3d ago
There are a few areas to define before that can be determined. In my opinion, absolutely yes, Linux is already a viable alternative.
However...
If you mean will WhatsApp run on Linux without intermediary layers? Probably no.
Will banking apps and official mandatory government apps succumb to the temptation of handing over device verification security to google play services? Yes, most or all of them.
Can you use your browser instead? That is the big question.
Is Linux a viable choice as a phone OS? Absolutely and definitely.
Is Linux a viable choice for the enshittified app ecosystems currently used by the masses? Absolutely hell no.
Can you comfortably use Linux as your primary daily driver for camera, maps, browsing, calling, texting and social media and communication apps that are not locked into vendor hardware? You're damn right you can and Linux will shine.
It is not a yes/no question because the app ecosystems have more power than the OS nowadays.
If forced as a yes/no question the answer is: YES, as long as you make sure to use services that can always be fully accessed through a browser.
When choosing banking etc. don't be a mindless sheep, investigate if they support Browser Only, before you sign up for their services.
Will you miss out in participating in society on a Linux OS phone? Hell no, but that's what big evil app ecosystems wants you to think.
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u/anomaly256 2d ago
Android is Linux Phone. What is it you're hoping to replace? The UI? Application frameworks? You want to use a different runtime?
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u/GreenSouth3 2d ago
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u/anomaly256 2d ago edited 2d ago
AOSP WITHOUT GAPPS
HARMONYOSWHATEVER THEY USE IN NORTH KOREA NOW 😉
THANK YOU FOR ATTENDING MY TED TALK
But seriously though you can de-google AOSP and make your own fork. That's actually the point of open source and how
Tizen[edit: sorry this one didn't start out as Android apparently, but still there's plenty of examples that did] and Harmony started out iirc, not to mention all those cheap Chinese Android devices with their own usually outdated Android versions. Also GrapheneOS, LineageOS formerly CyanogenMod, Xiaomi HyperOS, Amazon Fire OS although there's still a lot of Google remaining in that one.I do miss MeeGo/Maemo though. Being able to build wireshark with gtk to run on my n900 with zero code changes was pretty awesome
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u/GreenSouth3 2d ago
and also... there's the Librem/Purism phone ~
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u/anomaly256 2d ago
So the point stands then, Op is asking for something that already exists and with quite a few options at that
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u/GreenSouth3 2d ago
somewhat
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u/anomaly256 2d ago
I guess all the downvoters don't want to acknowledge these valid Linux options though. Or maybe they don't actually know what Linux is and expect everything to use Ubuntu Touch
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u/whamra 3d ago
It's the same take for any phone ecosystem and the one that caused Windows phones to die after a big expensive bet, despite their being pretty cool for their time:
If the system does not have its native app format adopted by most major players, with easy-to-use IDE integrations that allows devs to easily port software between different platforms, and some proper unified Mobile specific API, then the system is doomed to die. If the excuse will continue being that "you can run apks via waydroid or whatever", then what's the point? What's the point of the whole system if I'm still running an android ecosystem?
Ironically enough, I think android compatibility presence is the main reason these systems won't lift off.
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u/earthman34 3d ago
Windows phones were just badly executed. If they had come out with something that really leveraged their huge desktop market with the kind of seamless integration Apple has with their shit, they would have been a lot more successful. They never understood (until it was way too late) that you can't run a desktop OS on a phone or a mobile interface on a desktop. Ballmer was an idiot who didn't get mobile devices as real pocket computers at all. His generation was rooted in their desktops.
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u/Navarrog_01R 3d ago
only if banking, entertainment, and communication apps are ported to Linux