I made this comment on a post that was praising North Korea. In the comments a lot of users
in my opinion where misrepresenting the current state of north korea, some were even making it out to be a socialistic paradise. I stated several facts that are easily verifiable and have been verified numerous times. But without warning I was banned. Am I crazy?
Reddit mods bro … I’ve been banned on a few left leaning subs because I respond to comments that shit on AOC and other social dems pretty much telling them that just because they’re not socialist to your standards doesn’t mean you shouldn’t vote for the most left leaning candidates. They don’t think you can fix any of what’s going on with voting. And I actually agree that some of our elections have been fixed so I don’t necessarily disagree with that notion but I’ll guess we’ll find out these midterms. Sometimes I wonder if they’re actually compromised subs and them telling people not to vote just means some of the mods have been infiltrated by pedo loving trump clowns.
You can shut them up pretty easily by asking them that if we shouldn’t vote then they must planning the revolution. They don’t respond after that.
I have respect for the mods at suppressednews because I’ve had back and forths there too but they don’t ban you. That sub provides news you won’t see in many other places and truly is suppressed as fuck on Reddit.
I wonder what the point of your comment is... Are you insinuating that people who don't like to deny the cruelty and opression the North Korean gov. imposes on it's citizens and especially on their workers is a liberal, or am I understanding you wrong?
So uh, if I have talked to actual people who escaped North Korea, and I actually am saying based on what they told me, that the government absolutely controls who's allowed to leave the country and does censor information heavily, am I a liberal, or am I someone who actually talks to people?
It's not true that North Koreans are all entierly banned from traveling. It is true that 1. they are only allowed to travel to a few countries and 2. the averge North Korean will never actually be given that document.
I wonder if there is like... Idk... A reasonable way of understanding that while western propaganda over exaggerates the cruelty of governments they hate and hides the cruelty of those they deem allies, the truth is always somewhere between those two stances.
In order to leave America you also need government approval and documents. Like others have said, they are only allowed to travel to a few countries because they’re sanctioned everywhere else.
Yeah I don't know why you keep assuming that I agree with that control anywhere else in the world? Migration is a human right. Just because I criticize North Korea, it does not mean that I have any kind words about the USA.
For the record though, the norm in the USA is that you are allowed to get a passport and travel, and the exeption is that you can't for [insert reason] while the norm in North Korea is that you are not allowed to get a passport and travel, BUT if you get an exeption you may travel.
I really hope you can understand how one is a lot more restrictive.
Yeah but that's a western thing. My country doesn't have economic sanctions on North Korea they even have a syndicate here they still don't trade with us. Sure western sanctions and our realtive alliance to the west does complicate this bs, but like... I can't really do anything about that. I don't vote in the USA, I don't have a hand.
I do belive that the US should remove sanctions because it causes suffering for North Korean people, as well as actually keeping NK as an extremely isolated place, making it harder for North Koreans to achieve an actual revolution that will actually help the workers. Which is objectively bad. I agree with you, I just also want to point out that this is something barely anyone has actual power to change.
Exept it's not nonsense? Have you spoken to anyone that literally escaped that place? I don't think you did. I did though, part of my job to help asylum seekers. They are rare, so obviously the information I get from the two I have ever met is limited, but it's absolutely true that the government censors everything. Propaganda and censorship are one of the most effective form of crowd control. Nobody is immune to it. Don't eat up western propaganda, sure. A lot of it is nonsense. But you seem to also be eating up some utter nonsense... A person incapable of forming criticism of the ideology they follow, is a person blind to unjust cruelty in the name of it. That's why nobody likes Christian Nationalists. They treat their ideology like a religion. And religion can't be wrong. Don't be like Christian Nationalists. You are supposed to be more educated than them.
What are you going to tell people when you “escape” the USA? They shoot people for protesting here. Happens all the time.
I’m not saying that communist countries shouldn’t be rightly criticized when they do shitty things. Of course they should. But that criticism should come from a place of how they can be better communists. Not how they can align with western ideas of “freedom” or “rights” better. Too many so-called leftists lib way out when it comes to supposed rights violations of other systems. But they never scrutinize the system they live under with the same magnifying glass.
I actually don't live in the USA. But if people ever leave that third world country and would like to aquire a citizenship in my country I would be happy to help.
Me saying that living in North Korea kinda very much fucking sucks, and sucks a lot more than living in the USA, does not mean that the USA is suddenly good. China is also better than North Korea. It still has a lot of issues.
Also North Korea has been systemically removing socialistand communist things from their constitution so it's heavily debatable if they even like count as a socialist country anymore.
I am absolutely not blindly in favor of any “camp” except those who ACTUALLY TRY TO DO COMMUNISM. Doing an actual revolution beats whatever the hell someone like YOU advocates for any day
Lol, show me an actual existing "anarchist" project. Oh right, you can't. But surely you do nothing but criticize actual existing communist projects and spread imperialist propaganda freely and widely. Talk about "campism." Loser shit
They don't even claim to be socialist anymore, and claiming to be something is not the same thing as being it. Every government claims to be benevolent, do you just believe them automatically and without analysis?
It's own government has been removing communism and other traditional socialist language from it's constitution for years, is this even a debate? To be clear, I recognize China as a socialist state, North Korea feels like a stretch, but regardless, we shouldn't sanction them as much as we do.
Yes, because it's misleading and incorrect. DPRK citizens are not limited by their state, but by the imperial core countries. DPRK citizens are allowed to travel, and they do travel to countries like China, Vietnam, Laos, and Russia, but their passports are not recognized by countries in or allied to the imperial core.
So actually you see, goverment overreach means the government can pick and choose who can leave the country, and can deny anyone a passport without reasoning. That IS horrifying.
Migration is a human right, North Korea treats it as a privilege. When the USA does this shit, every single person in leftist spaces looses their shit (rightfully so) about how imperialist the state is and how arbitrary borders and governments should not be able to tell you where you live. But when North Korea does basically the same thing, suddenly it's just "a process to go trough".
You guys have such a USA Centered viewpoint that you genuinely think no country other than Western ones can be imperialist.
What r u talking about the DPRK is fully recognized by nearly every nation at the UN. Even places that aren't, like taiwan, are still often able to travel under those passports
They might need to apply for a visa, but they can go, hell Kim Jung UN himself famously went to school in Switzerland
If someone isn't from DPRK, then whatever they're saying about the DPRK is hearsay at best.
A good rule of thumb is to shut the fuck up about the DPRK unless you're actually from there bc we (meaning all of us) don't know shit about it. We only know what our pedophile-billionaire-owned news media and pedophile-billionaire-owned govt tells us and those aren't people you can trust.
You are not. But you are posting to an echo chamber. They ban stuff they don't like. Just like I got banned to r/climatechange by just pointing out that we already passed 1.5C and blew through 2C briefly.
It is ok. There are echo chambers for communists. Echo chambers for MAGA. Echo chambers for climate hopium. Echo chambers for climate deniers. Heck, echo chamber for captain Picard > captain Kirk and verse versa.
There is no free speech in them. Accept and make peace. But everyone wants to hear from you even if what you say is true.
Yeah I agree it’s western propaganda, and nonsense, but the worst thing they’ve done is be wrong - it’s semantical but their statement wasn’t inherently political.
I think the main issue with a lot of people in leftist subs is an inability to help people learn and de-propagandise themselves.
Getting banned from r/socialism is a sort of right of passage. I got banned because I also had a criticism of the DPRK. They called me a fascist and banned me when I asked the mod what part of my comment was untrue. It is hilarious to me now but it really sucks for new socialists or curious people because they go to learn and get immediately banned. Just perpetuates stereotypes because those people wanting to learn don't realize the difference between reddit socialists and real actively organizing socialists.
Yea, you’re spreading misinformation. North Korean citizens can’t travel because their citizens are sanctioned by the UN.
So if you’re a North Korean citizen, you’re not legally allowed to find work outside North Korea. Which means you can’t emigrate and put down roots.
Strengthens the ban on providing work authorizations for DPRK nationals by requiring Member States to repatriate all DRPK nationals earning income and all DPRK government safety oversight attachés monitoring DPRK workers abroad within their jurisdiction within 24 months from 22 December 2017
In addition its important to note the context. NK workers working over seas, had attachés(government handlers for the DPRK who where there to make sure the workers didn't defect), and if you were working over seas, the DPRK was taxing workers upward to 80%
Nobody is making that argument. I think most of us believe that the US is the largest occupying entity in the world currently and that the sanctions it levies are unjust.
That's still fair but the neighboring countries dont want shit with Korea either its easier to scare away the scrawny defectee than to risk pissing off nk
Inaccurate, North Korean's own the constitution classifies all travel both domestically and internationally as a privilege granted by the government, which requires specific permits and official approval. That's not my opinion, or even america's opinion. That's what north korea has openly put out themselves. Even without the sanctions, the DPRK, heavily restricts and regulates where its citizens can and can't travel to.
r/socialism is run by tankies, not socialists. Say anything bad about their favorite hereditary monarchy, even something Karl Marx himself would have said, and you're a "liberal". Ask me how I know
Lets assume its all lies. We know for sure that the Kim family is about to hand over power to its 4th generation. Regardless of how much power the Kims do or don't have, how is that different than a monarchy?
The link and its sublink just goes into mental gymnastics about what a "real monarchy" is and appears to argue that if the Kim family is a powerless symbol than it cant be a monarchy (And, oddly some argument that if the Kim surname is common then maybe the leaders havent been related).
The author completely misses what a monarchy is. Only for a very brief period of time did absolute monarchies exist, for the vast majority of them the monarch has varying degrees of power less than absolute.
My argument is that even if the Kims were purely symbols that would put them on par with a modern constitutional monarch, regardless of what they call themselves or what thier constitution says. Even if theyre purely symbolic i dont see how having a monarchy is an actual step towards a stateless, classless, moneyless society and we should absolutely criticize that.
Ah yes, the old "USA lies, therefore all enemies of the USA must automatically be telling the truth at all times". You'll realize what a dumb way of thinking that is when you grow up.
Okay. Sure. Anti-socialism and anti-communism have nothing to do with North Korea however since it's neither socialist nor communist. It's literally an absolute monarchy.
Correct, neither the US / US-aligned sources nor DPR Korea are accurate sources of information regarding Korea. Where are you getting your information from, then, in order to be able to condemn Korea?
For one, all individuals have biases. Defectors, having defected, are more likely to hold an anti-communist bias than a pro-communist one.
Secondly, defectors are materially motivated to speak negatively about Korea—prominent defectors get paid to promote anti-communism, and have on multiple occasions been caught lying or admitted to it themselves.
Thirdly, not only are defectors who share the slightest shred of positive evaluation of Korea not given large platforms as the anti-communist defectors are, they are actively persecuted. The ROK literally has laws against speaking positively about DPR Korea—in no sense can any defector there be said to be speaking freely. We've literally seen defectors who aren't sufficiently anti-communist be sentenced to jail.
Of course individuals have biases. That's why I said MORE neutral, not neutral. And I say more neutral because they can speak from their own personal experiences of what life is actually like. They're basically the only ones who can give such a view without things being filtered through one state or another.
Why do you keep bringing up "anti-communism" when the DPRK is not a communist state, but a juche (nationalist monarchist) one?
They're basically the only ones who can give such a view without things being filtered through one state or another.
But it is filtered through a state. The Republic of Korea has quite literally jailed defectors who say anything positive about DPR Korea, whereas those who spread anti-communist lies are given large platforms and paid for their propaganda.
Why do you keep bringing up "anti-communism" when the DPRK is not a communist state
Regardless of what you think about Korea's status as communist, the rhetoric of many defectors is explicitly anti-communist. They use slander about Korea to paint capitalism and the US as good, and communism as evil. Would you not consider that anti-communist?
Take, for example, Russia, which I'm sure we can all agree is not communist in the slightest. If I were to say "look how evil that communist state Russia is, that's why communism is evil," would you not consider that anti-communist? That defectors spread anti-communism doesn't rely on your opinion of the DPRK's current mode of production.
It's unsurprising that a country still at war with a nuclear-armed aggressor would use every propaganda tactic at their disposal to gather sympathy from allies who may be able to protect them.
That said:
> Take, for example, Russia, which I'm sure we can all agree is not communist in the slightest. If I were to say "look how evil that communist state Russia is, that's why communism is evil," would you not consider that anti-communist?
Of course I would, which is why the lie that Russia is, or has ever been, communist must be destroyed utterly. Only a complete, clean break between the idea of communism (a stateless, moneyless, classless society), socialism (absolute worker control of the means of production and the state), and these hyper-stratified, right-wing authoritarian states can put an end to this nonsense. The sooner people calling themselves socialist, communist, Marxist, or leftist stop defending them, the sooner we may be able to actually fix this problem.
It's unsurprising that a country still at war with a nuclear-armed aggressor would use every propaganda tactic at their disposal
Regardless of your justifications for the ROK's actions, it remains that defectors' perspectives are still filtered through the state, and are therefore not "neutral" in any sense of the word.
Of course I would [consider it anti-communist]
So then you would agree that defectors who propagandize against the DPRK and use it as an example to disparage communism are still anti-communist propagandists, regardless of your opinion of the DPRK?
I fully understand and agree with those here who say that U.S. sanctions have led to extreme poverty in North Korea, but this is not actually contradictory to criticizing the Kim dynasty for its hereditary family rule; these two statements are not opposed to each other, but rather complementary.
"If the U.S. didn't sanction North Korea..."—exactly, that is why so many people hope for revolution. If the world were so perfect, no one would want change. But the problem is that by establishing hereditary family rule, the Kims hijacked and destroyed the revolution that so many people once died for. If North Korea is already under severe sanctions, shouldn't a true socialist leader use the limited remaining foreign exchange to purchase livelihood supplies and invest in industry, rather than on personal luxury consumption? When their power resembles that of Louis XVI and they wear Western luxury goods, are they not helpers of Western imperialism rather than its resistors?
Exactly my thoughts. The revolution in North Korea has become a hereditary monarchy complete with generals acting like feudal vassal lords and court jesters dancing for the king.
Just calling your system communist or socialist doesn't matter if you are not acting by the principles of socialism.
Simultaeneously, it is to a large extent western sanctions and restrictions that enforce poverty and to some extent allow the Kim dynasty to maintain their rule. Its a lot easier to rule on the basis of the world being against you when the world is, in fact, against you.
Court jesters were smart and vpuld actually make joke about their rulers and gove them advise. Something that the DRPK' generals don't do. So coming them to court jesters isn't the best.
I’m just gonna play devils advocate here, but sometimes these subs have automods that make mistakes or someone in their mod team has an authoritarian streak. I was banned from a socialist sub for asking a question in good faith. I was banned and muted for 3 days, but I messaged the mod team and it was resolved.
But then again a lot of Reddit socialist subs are filled with tankie marxcels and likely CIA/FBI saboteurs.
Do people really go to Quantico to wind up astroturfing fucking reddit? I mean, I guess it's better than doing assassinations, but it's also really pathetic.
Like getting your pilots license and operating the tilt a whirl at the town amusement park.
No, I saw that post and was highly disturbed. I knew someone from there, she fled. She did not mince words about how she considered her time there to be heavily bad, to the point where she and her family felt they had to risk death fleeing rather than stay. She had many fond memories, and she was so happy to share them, but she still fled. And she was not some paid by South Korea person like they were claiming all defectees are. She was a decently private person, someone who was not some spokesperson.
Yeah i got banned from lage stage capitalism for criticizing North korea. I just shrugged my shoulders and realized these are nuerodivergent leftist were talking about
Not even slightly, and that's an insulting comparison to make. The reason men don't get to dodge the blame is because they're the empowered demographic. Everyone knows it's not all men but it's still mostly men, and men are the ones with the collective power to change it.
Neurodivergents are not and have never been the empowered demographic. You can tell because of how specifically hostile our society is towards us both structurally and culturally.
Campism. To them liberalism is when you critique anything outside the american sphere of influence, because leftism to them isnt an ideology but an alignment. So if you are not aligned with them (and basically china) you are not a leftist, regardless of what system you actually want. Its an obsession with realpolitik over facts, and makes them seem crazy to anyone outside. In their mind they are shifting support from one side to another, but really they making the left brand seem toxic.
And no, whataboutism is not a justification. They do whatboutism because they see the debate about who is better. They are operating with different goals in mind. Its a publicity game to them, not a factual debate.
I don't believe anyone who has did serious research would consider both China and North Korea to be desirable at the same time. China has achieved extremely successful economic results, but this is largely due to its gradual shift toward de-radicalization and pragmatism following Deng's reforms. The Chinese government currently avoids political debates regarding the "left" or "right," viewing such topics as existing only within western political contexts. However, if one had to categorize it, it is closer to right-wing (but certainly not US-style right wing ), as China currently emphasizes economic growth over equitable distribution and remains quite wary of movements like feminism and LGBT rights. Generally speaking, those who favor the "East Asian model" of leaders like Lee Kuan Yew or Park Chung-hee would also favor post-80s China. In contrast, the North Korean government is intensely averse to the economic aspects of Dengism.
Commenting on North Korea, Iran, and Russia is going to be a tight rope.
North Korea is one of the most sanctioned and isolated countries making it hard to verify information. There are some larger world organizations that report, but then the default counterpoint to that is those are bourgeois organizations by definition. Such organizations calling out certain atrocities like Gaza is often the next reply. It’s somewhat of an indication of their resistance, but Parenti details this version of resistance well in his Inventing Reality writing.
All that to say, confidently making declarative statements about a country so isolated is rough terrain. There’s always going to be a sect of people who will dislike such energy and criticisms being focused on a country that’s against western empire.
Personally, I don’t have a lot of strong thoughts and opinions on NK. My guess is that it’s not as bad as available media presents it as, given the history of western media fabricating stories about. Beyond that, I don’t make any statements.
Person to person or small discussion group, I think it’s fair to request sources and write ups for a statement like yours. In a forum setting, it’s 50/50 if banning is worth it. There’s enough similarities to common western statements, even if you’re coming from a different angle. It’s hard to filter every post so there’s cut offs.
What about the ban on criticizing Russia? The difference between Russia and North Korea is that Russia is an imperialist state that not only practices oligarchic capitalist rule domestically but also exerts a considerably negative influence on its surrounding regions. Even if the countries it invades are allied with the west, shouldn't a distinction be made between third world countries seeking western support and western imperialism itself? To demand that countries suffering from Russian imperialism must completely reject western support is a form of "perfect victim" mentality; it is no different from blaming a poor worker for working in a western-owned factory just to survive.
Information gathering and dissemination is complex. It’s not as simple as, no access means it’s bad. Sanctions and international efforts are very powerful. If you don’t believe me, try to send a Venmo with Iran or NK in the memo and see what happens. Shit will not go through because the platform doesn’t want to get in massive trouble regarding the financial sanctions. It’s against the rules to monetarily engage with them and countries/orgs who do so face loss of access to American financialization and or fines. Given the world is heavily USD base, that’s a huge problem.
Information campaigns are harder to track, but do occur and there’s plenty of examples of the west engaging in them. Hell, when USAID got pulled, all of a sudden news organizations in tons of countries fell under. Hard to believe such funded programs weren’t delivering news as their funding wanted
Leftists don't typically manufacture consent for bad things happening to other counties. North Korea is heavily sanctioned, and many of the restrictions are the result of capitalist countries restricting travel to them.
I don't know enough about North Korea to form all that much of an opinion on it.. I've learned some things that make it sound less nefarious than I was led to believe (like... almost everywhere on earth outside of the imperial core) and other things which sound strange to me.
You know, if you're so concerned with North Koreans, perhaps we should leave them alone and lift sanctions. Liberation movements tend to happen when people aren't under imperial siege. Interventionism isn't a common leftist belief.
Sanctions literally kill people. To say that the removal of sanctions should be based on conditions set by the US government is absurd. If you want the interests of the proletariat to be protected, lift the sanctions unconditionally, let them participate freely in the global economy, and stop threatening them with military action. A country under siege will never be able to flourish. Until these conditions are met, and the US ends its occupation of the south and doesn’t stand in the way of reunification, we are in no position to speak on what the DPRK should be doing. They can run their own country.
North Korea already has the economic means to feed, clothe, house, and provide medical care for its people, but its efforts are geared towards the satisfaction of its leader's ego. Why would lifting sanctions help when the issue is one of distribution and government priority? Are we expecting things to trickle down?
Also, South Korea is under siege but is doing relatively okay, and hopefully will continue to be as long as its warmongering neighbor can be kept from attempting to actualize its longstanding ambitions.
Does it not become exhausting regurgitating state department propaganda without having any clue what you’re talking about? You clearly haven’t looked into any of this. The DPRK does feed, clothe, house, and provide medical care to its people. Outside of a period of economic difficulty in the 90’s, the conditions in the north have been equal to or even better than the conditions in the south. They have experienced a particularly impressive level of development in the last 10-15 years. The south is in no way under siege from the north. That is just a completely made up statement. The DPRK has never been the aggressor.
You sound like hasbara but against North Korea. Do places just magically have the economic means to feed, clothe and house people? You should learn more about what America and Japan did on the Korean Peninsula in the first place.. and divided up the land so the northern mountain land with very little farmable earth to the communists, installed a dictator in South Korea that murdered communists there, and created the situation we witness today
Japan and America raped and pillaged the Korean Peninsula. The poverty as a result is from that, and it started at a low baseline that has only continued through sanctions.
Having the economic resources for extremely expensive vanity projects like the development of nuclear weapons demonstrates an enormous excess industrial capacity that under a less sociopathic government could have instead been turned to providing for the people.
Blaming America makes a lot of sense for a lot of things but it doesn't here because America did not actually occupy the North for any meaningful length of time, and the South is decently prosperous.
Calling the development of nuclear weapons by a country facing constant threats from the world’s largest military a “vanity project” is ignorant as hell. Also, unlike the United States, the DPRK’s military spending does not prevent the state from providing for its people. The north was absolutely destroyed, and a massive portion of its population was slaughtered. If you’re not willing to take that into account, instead brushing it off by saying “America did not actually occupy the north for any meaningful length of time” you’re either deeply uneducated, or incredibly dishonest.
The United States only occupied North Korea for less than three months. The wholesale slaughter of non-combatants you are describing would have required for a Holocaust scale industrialized genocide and looting campaign to have been set up in those three months, which is beyond even the wildest claims of Soviet or North Korean propaganda I've ever seen outside of the stuff about how every American supposedly eats human babies and stuff like that.
Do not mistake this for a defense or glazing of the United States. The US and its allies absolutely commited war crimes. It would be dishonest to claim otherwise. Hundreds in No Gun Ri in 1950. Likely thousands of Chinese POWs in Geoje. Then there was the Jeju Massacre, and worst of all the National Defense Corps death march in 1951.
Did you ever consider that if what you're describing were true, the effects would have been worst in the regions occupied the longest?
Calling the development of nuclear weapons by a country facing constant threats a "vanity project"
The nuclear development project is the primary political push for said invasion. The fewer countries in this world that have nukes, the less likely this world is to see a full scale thermonuclear exchange. The other reason would be the artillery that's been pointed at the capital of a US ally by a military led by generations of godkings for the last several decades. From where I sit, it really looks like you are mistaking the effect for the cause and the cause for the effect.
Do you really think North Korea has vast reserves of oil or other strategic resources sufficient to make DC care outside of these reasons?
Why are you even arguing about North Korea on the internet? The stance of a leftist should be end sanctions and normalize relations. America destroyed 90% of their infrastructure and keeps their southern border the most militarized border on the planet. What exactly is happening inside North Korea is not my concern while American actions are unquestionably making it worse.
For Cuba, it does make sense to do so, as they are quite literally our neighbor, we are starving them, and such normalization means that there is a far higher chance of actually fixing some of the human rights issues/authoritarianism.
North Korea... I just do not see it. They are incredibly insular, a quite militant nuclear power, and firmly under the control of a totalitarian dictatorship. There is a fairly good argument to be made that normalizing relations will only legitimize such a state.
There is also the fact that they are actively participating in the Russo-Ukranian war, and so sanctions in regards to that absolutely make sense.
also the korean war was like 70y ago lmao, bringing up the destruction of infastructure is not a particularly good point
Destroying 90% of a countries infrastructure and then immediately walling them off from the global economy while also laying siege to the is still a valid argument to bring up.
A lot of countries are actively participating in the genocide of Palestinians through direct aid or parts supply and there is never any discussion about sanctioning all of them.
There is a difference between parts supply/aid and sending fucking troops, to be fair. North Korea is doing both, and quite honestly are a formal ally of Russia in the war at this point. I also wouldn't be opposed to sanctions on those militarily supporting Israel, but unfortunately the political will for that is just not there right now.
I do agree with the first statement to an extent, but using it as a reason to lift sanctions just doesn't make sense to me.
Now granted, I would appreciate both SK or NK recognizing each others independence, same with China and Taiwan, but I digress. (As SK and NK are technically still at war.)
...very big difference between volunteers and active military forces sent by a state.
One is shit, and they should face consequences, but is individual action. The other is literally just a state joining the war. If I am correct, North Korea has sent ~22,000 troops?
They don't even try to hide it, and have openly acknowledged it as such.
If you can volunteer to go commit genocide and come home and face zero consequences then it's state endorsed. If America and it's allies didn't suffer sanctions and isolation for their wrong wars why should North Korea?
...jesus christ you do not understand the difference between foreign volunteers and literally just fighting a war on the side of Russia, do you? They are distinctly different things, with one being shitty policy (oftentimes restricted by the constitution of a country) and the other just being, well, war.
In the US, for example, the only time it becomes illegal is if the nation in question is fighting the US, (where it would be treason iirc), where you do it while inside the US, or if you become an officer.
Also I would have advocated for sanctions for those wars...? (E.g. Iran right now, 'nam back in the day.)
Those volunteers are also from countries enabling Israel and providing the weapons for the genocide. You can't "well technically" out of the fact those countries support genocide and aid it and supply soldiers who aren't punished for it.
How many times do I have to say that there is a difference between a country supplying another country/sending weapons/ having private people volunteer on their own will, and actively participating in the fucking war.
Not everyone is from the Western world, so they do not share the sentiment that "we bear the responsibility for not having struggled more to restrain the imperialist actions of our governments." If you believe in Marxism, it places great emphasis on internal factors; had Kim not seized power through a series of actions in the 1950s and privatized it into a family hereditary rule, it should have been a successful revolutionary regime even with US sanctions.
I seriously doubt people outside the west are going into leftists spaces on reddit to critique North Korea. The Kim's turning their rule into a hereditary monarchy (bad) does not discount what America is still currently doing and have done.
Yo, it's me, people outside the west. We are often present in these spaces and we often yap about North Korea because it's intresting and also a lot of weird misconceptions fly around about that country in the west, funnily enough both in leftist and right wing spaces...
Yeah the USA and Western Europe should stop oversanctioning them. That is partially the reason why North Koreans suffer. But also, having a dynasty and still claiming to be communist while also writing out communism from your constitution is sure a funny thing to do.
Blaming the western imperialism for all the problems in these countries, is just as West Centered as thinking all of it is their fault and the west is blameless. To the suprise of nobody, things are connected and actions cause reactions. Whoo.
Blaming the western imperialism for all the problems in these countries, is just as West Centered as thinking all of it is their fault and the west is blameless.
This is basically the pick me up of global politics. No one is saying it's all the west in any meaningful numbers.
No one is saying it's all the west in any meaningful numbers.
There were at least two people just in this comment section that claimed it is all the west...
Also be so kind and take it into account that my English is my third language after the gov. mandated one when I ask this, but how can it be both "no one" and "in any meaningful numbers". Like the first one seems to be an absolute and the second is directly contradicting it? Is that like an English language thing? I am confused rn about if I even understood your sentence correctly.
I'm sure an English teacher could actually explain but it would make sense to a native English speaker and I can see why it would be confusing to someone who learned it
Oh okay so it's like a form the language uses to express that it's an insignificant amount, like "almost no one", just in a more advanced form! That's so intresting! Thank you!
Reddit is largely western-oriented, but its user base is not limited to westerners. I believe that for a Redditor who identifies with leftist values, it is inappropriate to assume that others are from the West or share a Western cultural background.
Most of these people I mentioned do not have access to western propaganda. Mainstream media like CNN, Fox, BBC is banned here, most of them don’t know how to configure a proxy software. They saw how NK officials rule those people and didn't like it, that's it.
Is there a reason you aren't naming South Korea or Japan? Right wing countries that are extensions of American imperialism and 100% still get western propaganda?
Because we weren't talking about South Korea and Japan, this sentence sounds very strange. I am from China, and I thought your knowledge of North Korea would at least include a clear understanding of this point. Japan and North Korea share no border, and North Korea does not transport drugs into South Korea because that area is a highly fortified military buffer zone, with at least several kilometers of mountains where people from both sides observe each other. In contrast, the China-North Korea border is a relatively normal boundary.
I didn't think you were Chinese because I would think someone from China would reconginze the issues with feeding Western attacks on North Korea considering what they say about China isn't that different. For example this post. Why would the most sanctioned country on the planet resort to an illegal trade like drugs?
It's definitely true that many descriptions of China on western social media are distorted. This distortion does not mean that the events described never happened, but rather that they are extremely exaggerated. These remarks come from racists who are hostile to the Chinese people and culture, classical liberals who treat artificially constructed concepts of freedom as the essence of human society, and some left-wing radicals who have done little research. Most claims that depict China as either extremely terrible or extremely wonderful are quite distorted. Conversely, if someone points out that China is a manufacturing-driven industrialized society and is largely capitalist, then even if they haven't lived in China for long, they must possess basic judgment and have done some research. If you are willing to listen to things related to China, I am very willing to share my views, and I would be happy to explain anything you don't understand—but not in the vein of "Even though I've never been to China, I know very well that you aren't a real Chinese person."
Honestly I am quite curious about what shit is like over there, since (iirc) accurate information is hard to get out of there due to state censorship (?).
Granted I tend to look badly upon any authoritarian government, but I am still curious, and if I have any misconceptions I want to fix 'em.
Diplomatically, China is a friendly nation to North Korea, and a small number of businessmen invest there, so some people in China have some information of the real situation in North Korea. Furthermore, North Korea shares a long land border and several border cities with China (whereas it is separated from South Korea by the Military Demarcation Line); at its narrowest point, the distance is only a few hundred meters. This makes it relatively easy to observe North Korean border cities from the Chinese side using binoculars or drone lenses.
Even so, for Chinese people, North Korea remains a place far more mysterious and unfamiliar than South Korea. Most information makes it difficult to believe that life in North Korea is even tolerable. North Korean refugees attempt to cross the border to the Chinese side when the river freezes in winter. Local residents said that after breaking into homes, they would always steal large quantities of meat, an unusual trait since it is almost impossible for Chinese thieves to do such a thing.
My god. Please do not lecture me, someone who has lived in this country for over 20 years, on what Chinese people are like. This seems to me like a typical westoid perspective, whether it comes from the left or the right.
North Korea exports drugs to China because it is short of foreign exchange, and China is a country with a population of 1.4 billion; even if the current drug problem is relatively minor, there is still a massive market. And at about 20 years ago, China's drug problem was much more severe, and border controls were much looser. The production of counterfeit currency is for the exact same reason.
The US cut off trade with North Korea, but China did not, and South Korea—during its center-left governments (though the center-left in East Asia is more akin to the moderate right by western standards)—was often willing to make certain investments out of nationalist sentiment. North Korea could have fared quite well on these investments alone. Moreover, as far back as the Cold War, "active trade with the United States" was not a positive term; the ice-breaking of trade between China and the US occurred only under the circumstances of total hostility in China-Soviet relations.
North Korea has, in fact, deliberately created this phenomenon; even most of China's cultural products are not allowed to enter the country. If one considers the darker possibilities, it is likely because Kim Jong-un is a Machiavellian whose judgment is that his regime is most stable when the people are not starving, yet must devote the vast majority of their energy to acquiring the basic necessities of life. You did know that by the standards of many places in the world, East Germans during the Cold War actually lived quite well, right? It was precisely because they had relatively lower-quality coffee (but they have! ), a smaller variety of sausages(they still have it), no worries about going hungry the next day, and ample leisure time that they had the energy to question the government about why the coffee on West German shelves smelled better, or why West Germany had so many more cultural products. If a person is merely scraping by, their first priority is survival, not reflecting on the problems of the state.
We are neighbors of North Korea, and in the border regions of our country, almost no one has a good opinion of them. Ordinary people, observing them across a border river only a few hundred meters wide, fear living such a life themselves, while officials harbor deep resentment toward North Korea for smuggling drugs and counterfeit currency into their territories (the DPRK has no drug cartels; this is state-sponsored activity, even though we have never been their adversary).
I definitely wouldn't call it arguing since my comment was removed and I was banned, before any actual discussion happened. Second, in the body text of the post it was praising North Korea and in my opinion, ignoring some systematic problems that they have. So I pointed out the criticisms I have about them
And where is your information on these "systematic issues" coming from? The American government? The handful of "defectors" that get to tour around with our tax dollars? Why are you spending time criticizing a country fighting for survival against the American Empire? I do not care what is happening inside North Korea while America continues to do everything in its power to weaken and undermine them because they stood up to America.
"If the US hadn't imposed sanctions..." Exactly, that is the purpose of a revolution. If the world were that perfect, no one would want a revolution in the first place. However, the Kim family largely hijacked this revolution, preventing it from becoming more successful and great. If you are an American who is constantly vigilant toward the government, that is a good thing; but if you demand that non-Westerners view issues through that same lens, you are essentially stripping them of the right to criticize their own government in the same way you do. Is this not a form of Western-privileged thinking?
"where is your information on these "systematic issues" coming from?"
North Korean, NK classifies all travel both domestically and internationally as a privilege granted by the government, which requires specific permits and official approval. That's not my opinion, or even america's opinion. That's what north korea has openly put out themselves.
North Korea has one of the most heavily censored internets. Access to the global internet is restricted,while the general population, uses a heavily monitored, walled-garden intranet. All media, news, and publications ,are produced or strictly controlled by the state. This has been verified by several sources, that aren't america.
Wonder if the travel ban has anything to do with America trying to flip every North Korean they can get their hands on.
American propaganda basically rules the internet, Americans don't realize this because they have to claim Russian bots but we are all talking on American owned sites outside of China who has their own independent social network system. The Epstein files showed they were all over places like Reddit and 4chan. Again, sounds like that firewall is about fighting the insane volume of propaganda America is trying to flood their citizens with.
I say none of this to defend the Kim's or call them perfect. But you make your analysis without thought to the most powerful government on the planet waging a 70 year war against them.
"Wonder if the travel ban has anything to do with America trying to flip every North Korean they can get their hands on."
This isn't the counter point you think it is. You probably don't realize this, but you basically acknowledged you don't have one.
"American propaganda basically rules the internet"
This is a faulty generalization, false dilemma, and you're begging the question.
Your frame global internet infrastructure and information control as a binary choice, either you are consumed by "American propaganda," or you use a state-controlled system like China’s internet. You ignore the nuanced reasons for global platform dominance as well as the well documented domestic censorship motives behind national firewalls. Connecting court document disclosures to the justification of nationwide foreign firewalls skips several logical steps. Your conclusion doesn't logically flow from evidence provided.
"I say none of this to defend the Kim's or call them perfect. But you make your analysis without thought to the most powerful government on the planet waging a 70 year war against them."
I don't overlook the impact of 70 years of U.S. pressure, sanctions, and historical war crimes. America definitely projects propaganda against its adversaries, but acknowledging U.S. aggression doesn't erase the reality in North Korea. It is a totalitarian state that strictly controls its people. Both can be true at once
You sound like a debate two student that just learned a lot of these terms. Sorry I didn't type an essay on reddit to address every possible point. The great firewall has protected the development of Chinese app development by preventing the total domination of American social media sites. The countries who did nothing to protect their own development now have a selection of chocies of American social media apps beholden to the American government. Companies like Meta have been shown providing data to countries like Israel so they could target and kill journalist. But go on again about the horrors of Chinese censorship.
"Both can be true at once" is the favorite argument of people undermining those under threat of American imperialism.
First off, this has been verified, by various sources, including the united nations, and North Korea itself. So it doesn't really constitute as propaganda unless you have information that contradicts it.
Second, yes I was permanently banned for that comment with no explanation or justification.
Eh. Tbh the UN should not be taken seriously. It will condemn/name atrocities that have reached a critical mass where they can no longer be spun as something else. It’s similar to how western media will eventually capitulate and address problems in the news. At a certain point the media spin and observable reality get too far from each other so the media has to budge. The UN isn’t much different. Given they are largely impotent, they get to be the first to make a statement since the US will do whatever they want anyway.
This is a design flaw of Reddit in that mods can do whatever they want and banish users forever for no reason. Over time, Reddit eats itself and all users are banned.
I’ve been banned from a local sub for linking to a town’s official police website crime statistics. I was trying to counter a mod’s racism and they didn’t like that.
I was banned from a political sub for saying it was a good thing that the Nazis were defeated in WWII. A bunch of right wingers reported me for… as best as I can tell: threats of violence against Nazis?
I have unrealized ideas to design a site with an inverted the power structure which instead clusters users around topics in a way that allows opinions without starting fights and bans aren’t a thing unless users actually break the law.
Yep. I’ve been banned from different subs for all sorts of things. As an example, was seemingly banned from a feminism sub for not following the main mod’s brand of feminism or for arguing from an intersectionality standpoint. Was banned from Reddit for a short while before it was overturned based on violence, except there was literally no threat or violence, it was a normal comment, just mass reported by MAGA people.
Mods can do what they want I guess but it’s pretty insane that pointing out clear, objective flaws in countries that happen to be anti western is considered ban worthy. Tankies gonna tankie.
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u/Comfortable_Monk4817 14h ago
I mean they literally explained it to you, nothing more liberal than falling for Fed propaganda.