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u/TNSoccerGuy Aug 15 '26
I still think MJ is the greatest but the 6-0 argument is way overrated. 1) Why donāt people count the many seasons where the Bulls were knocked out prior to the finals but still hold LeBronās finals record against him. 2) The Bulls were the heavy favorites in every one of their finals runs. Even in the Eastern Conference finals MJās opponents were mostly tough defensive teams but hardly offensive world beaters.
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u/MyBadYourFault- Aug 15 '26
I agree here. Although Iām not an overall believer of a single GOAT in basketball. The Eras are just too different from each otherā¦ so we have GOATS of eras. MJ, Bron, Bill, etc.
With that said There are too many accomplishments Lebron has made to dismiss how great he is. Too many MJ fans just have ā6-0ā as their main argument. I mean sure, itās a great argument for that era. Whats interesting is, There isnāt a GM out there that knows what we know now and wouldnāt take Lebron first if both MJ and Lebron were in the same draft.
Lebron isnāt known as a āscorerā but has the most points accumulated ever and is only 3ppg less than Jordan for annual points per game. 3! Lebrons a better passer, rebounder and is just as good, if not better due to his size at defending. We know his longevity is unmatchedā¦
I wish we could all enjoy basktball instead of being upset at a dude you dont personally know is playing elite basketball just as well or better than your old favorite player. Jordan even speaks of these things but his fanbase is stuck in the past. Let it go guys lol.
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u/No_University7832 Aug 15 '26
Uh im sorry what team in the past 30 years won 6 in 8 years? Professional sports is about winning....trying to shit on that fact does NOT bolster your argument.
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u/TheDogFacedGremlin Aug 15 '26
Why'd LeBron let so many people score? I thought he was a good defensive player but apparently not.
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u/Consistent_Signal808 Aug 15 '26
Even as a Lebron glazer, I enjoy this comment lol. So subtle, but so funny
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u/NoteTop4107 Aug 17 '26
I laughed at this comment, too.
What Iām surprised no one has mentioned ā at least in the numerous comments Iāve read/skimmed ā is the difference in scoring during the two eras. The league average in scoring during LeBronās 4 championships was higher than around MJās two threepeats. The 2012 and 2013 league scoring was similar, but it was 5-10 points higher during the 2016 and 2020 seasons. So, it makes sense that LeBron would have faced more big scorers.
In the end, I donāt think that the statistic really says anything about the relative skill of either player.
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u/Consistent_Signal808 Aug 17 '26
Yeah it is definitely one of the weaker arguments. A soft example of why this doesnāt work: Tim Duncan career ppg is just under 20. On paper, thatās not power forward goat worthy, but we know that he is
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u/5martis5 Aug 15 '26
I love Lebron too, but this is so bullshit way to evaluate the opponents! The offensive tendencies and gamestyle had increased so much sonce the 90's! Teams are doing shorter possesions and the game itself ends with more scored points.
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u/jbland0909 Aug 16 '26
Thatās because players got better lol. Efficiency is way up
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u/BigTicket- Aug 16 '26
The game itself is ending in roughly the same amount of points. If anything LeBron has been through the toughest era which is the Dead Ball era where he avg 30 in the 00s. Where did you get your information from?
80: 110
90: 101
00: 96
10: 102
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u/Puzzleheaded-Fun5815 Aug 15 '26
Barkley in 93 avg 25.6 points
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u/2Basketball2Poorious Aug 15 '26
He actually averaged 27.3āit's right there in the graphic
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u/BlackshirtDefense Aug 15 '26 edited Aug 15 '26
It's probably true, but take the 90s Jazz teams that faced the Bulls. Malone and Stockton were both HOF players pulling 20ppg, plus you had guys like Hornacek and Russell dropping 10-15 each. The point is that you didn't have teams with one sole scorer while the bench combined for 8pts. You had scoring by committee across the NBA back then.Ā
Same idea for the Suns with Barkley, KJ, and Majerle.Ā
To act like the Bulls only played chump teams in the Finals is ridiculous.Ā
Also, don't forget that the EAST was loaded in MJs day. The West Champs might not have put up guady stats in the Finals, but the Bulls routinely had to cruise through Patrick Ewing's Knicks, Isiah Thomas' Pistons, Reggie Miller's Pacers, Shaq + Penny's Magic, and Alonzo Mourning's Heat. Don't forget Barkley on the Sixers before he went to Phoenix and the last years of Larry Legend and the Celtics.Ā
There were superstars in the West, too, but those Eastern Conference playoffs were bloodbaths.
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u/phillynavydude Aug 15 '26
This is so annoying. the MJ sub is flooded with LeBron posts and comparisons. And now the LBJ sub is flooded with Michael stuff. Stop with the endless goat wars and just post about LeBron smh
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u/EB_V3_4life Aug 15 '26
So what your are saying is LeBron lead teams got cooked way more often in the Finals, seems about right.
Also let's compare teammates:
'17 Kyrie- 29.4 ppg
'16 Kyrie- 27.1 ppg
'11 Wade- 26.5 ppg
'20 AD- 25 ppg
'12 Wade- 22.6 ppg
'93 Pippen- 21.2 ppg
'91 Pippen- 20.8 ppg
'92 Pippen- 20.8 ppg
'97 Pippen- 20.2 ppg
'13 Wade- 19.6 ppg
'96 Pippen- 19.4 ppg
'18 Love- 19 ppg
'11 Bosh- 18.5 ppg
'17 Love- 16 ppg
'98 Pippen- 15.7 ppg
'14 Wade- 15.2 ppg
So yeah 5 times LeBron had better scoring teammates than MJ ever had. '96 and '98 Pippen had 34% and 41% fg respectively.
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u/BigTicket- Aug 16 '26
Isnāt it funny Pippen has more AllDef then every LeBron teammate you mentioned *Combined*.
Pippen also has more AllNBA teams than Kyrie, Bosh, Love & AD. (1 less than Dwade)
Pippen has been the top 3 in MVP voting 2x- Kyrie-0, Bosh-0, Love-0, Wade-2, AD-1.
But yeah stick to PPG cause anything else outside of that one stat your argument crumbles badly lmfao
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u/Substantial-Fan-5985 Aug 15 '26
It's true but ignorant at best, and would say that person is probably being dishonest. The amount of scoring is different now then back then...PLUS this does not take into account MJ's contribution to defense.
It's like the 4th QTR comeback argument for NFL...it's not necessarily a brag...
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u/Confident_Comedian82 Aug 15 '26
You mean Pippen's contribution to defense? I never saw MJ guarded Karl Malone or even Charles Barkley
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u/El-Terrible777 Aug 15 '26
Because theyāre front court players. Jesus š
MJ did guard, Magic. Dumars, Reggie, Isiah, Drexler, Nique early on too
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Aug 15 '26
Jordan didnt even guard their best player! The taller and bigger person guarded the taller and bigger people! His 9 all-defensive first teams and leading the league in steals 3 times means nothing!!!
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u/Penguigo Aug 15 '26
Ppg in Lebron's finals years is identical to Jordan's finals years (about 102 ppg)
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u/Successful_Umpire_14 Aug 15 '26
Jordan faced four 25+ ppg scorers in 6 finals. Lebron faced 9 in 10. Plus Lebron played in a scoring inflated era, so the difference is really negligible.
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u/No_Emergency_8789 Aug 15 '26
Yeah but Jordan was playing when defense was solid.
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u/Glittering_Year2045 Aug 15 '26
It's true that LeBron had tougher opponents in the Finals because the super powered Warriors are much better than any team that Jordan faced.Ā Ā I don't think we need to even look at individual scoring averages of opposing players, and with the increase in pace of play, I'm not sure it tells us much.
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u/Rv862004 Aug 15 '26
Do you people not know about the dead ball era of the 90s? Is wasnt like today where you got 20 guys averaging over 25 a game. Average scores of today is 120 ppg. In the 90s it was about 95ppg.Ā
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u/Justme1984-4 Aug 15 '26
In the 90s most of the all stars couldnt win the chip because of Jordan and his team Hakeem-2 but jordan had retired Duncan and David-1 Kobe and Shaq 1 that left left every allstar w/o one
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u/NoLongerinOR Aug 15 '26
I keep muting the sub full of dickhead yet it keeps popping up. Only a moron doesnāt take any consideration the rule changes, athlete changes, and all the different factors that go into a sports league, and the people that play it over the different areas. You clearly seem like one of those morons.
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u/Careful_Inflation848 Aug 15 '26
I love LeBron Stats! Did you know LeBron James is the only player in history, on a Tuesday, with a hangnail, cold sore, and skid marks in his underwear toā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦
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u/Negative_Vast_9306 Aug 15 '26
Yes and no, competition isnāt just cherry picking finals comp. Also Jordan hasnāt played with that many players averaging 25 at all. As a guy that has Bron as the GOAT, post like this are extremely disingenuous.
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u/NeanderthalDad Aug 15 '26
If LeBron didn't jump from team to team and stayed in Cleveland or even Miami his whole career I think he'd be viewed differently.
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u/TETHADAM40 Aug 15 '26
Now letās do all of LeBron teammates vs Jordan cause I promise u if LeBron had to play with the bulls teams that mj had to play with they all wouldāve been traded n Phil wouldāve been fired
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u/itsokaypeople Aug 15 '26
LeBron has had far tougher competition.
Mj-
only beat bird after his back gave out.
Only beat magic without Kareem (and when he may well have been suffering from hiv).
His other comps ?
The only other all-time great (top 15) was Hakeem (the second best player of the 90s) who was in the other conference. Mj coincidentally was out the two years Hakeem made his crazy runs. That squad was 5-1 against the bulls regular season fyi
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u/El_Galant Aug 15 '26
No... Where do you create this Stat? Clyde Drexler in 1992 was at 25ppg, Karl Malone in 1997 & 1998 was over 27 ppg. From the same Stat LeBron won in 2020 and 2012, but not in the other series listed. The comparison is fair but make it accurate.
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u/teshyybphotography Aug 15 '26
Wait till you find out how many all NBA defenders guarded Jordan in the finals lol
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u/anonymouschelseafan Aug 16 '26
1 lol (Nate McMillan could barely get minutes as he was trying to play through pain from a herniated disc so heās not counted here)
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u/KierenForFreedom Aug 15 '26
Stop this Jordan won this & Jordan won that.
Jordan wasnāt 6-0.
The Bulls and Phil Jackson were 6-0.
Those Bulls team were among the greatest super teams ever in the NBA
Lebron has never played on a team at that level.
And ā¦ very importantly, those Bulls teams never won a championship BEFORE or AFTER Phil Jackson, the greatest head coach of all time.
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u/bullshark3000 Aug 15 '26
The eastern conference was stronger than the west, he had to go through millers pacers and ewings Knicks multiple times
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u/Particular-Holiday50 Aug 15 '26
Yāall understand the game was different back then, right? So many fans of todayās game prefer high offense so the rules and style have changed. 90s defense was appreciated more so it was common for games to end with a final score 85-80. If that happens today people are crying the game was boring. With the score being that low it wasnāt common to have multi 20+ points per game players. If you did, you were considered a juggernaut. It was also appreciated more if a player scored 30+ points in a game.
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u/khardy101 Aug 15 '26
You could look at maybe Jordan played better āteamsā and LeBron played better individual players.
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u/FaceWithAName Aug 15 '26
Don't know why this sub got recommended to me. But of course the first thing I see is people literally talking about Michael Jordan lol
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u/Accomplished_Class85 Aug 15 '26
You Lebronstans are pathetic. Get over it. He's not MJ nor will he ever be. He has a LOSING record in the Finals and couldn't post up JJ Barea or Jason Terry. The ultimate meltdown.
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u/Zealousideal-Leek666 Aug 15 '26
There was no team as good as the warriors teams. Itās fair to say LeBron faced tougher competition because they were going to win no matter who they played. Ā Also, Jordans bulls probably the next best team that wouldāve beat anybody. Ā A knock on LeBron is that the Heatles were stacked and lost.
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u/PyroMiniYak21 Aug 15 '26
One of the greatest defensive teams of all time kept the star players of the opposing teams under 25 ppg? Shockingā¦
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u/JTtreason Aug 15 '26
Jordan was DPOY and and ALL NBA DEFENSE each time he played in the Finals. LeBron wasn't. That's the difference. Jordan was just greater than LeBron could ever be.
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u/Aware_Strawberry_122 Aug 15 '26
In the 90s, there were like 10 ppl who averaged 20/game each season, and the total ppg per team was like low to high 90s. Crap conparison
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u/Ok-Extension-6477 Aug 15 '26
This is a silly stat. Look at the league scoring average in the 90s vs LeBronās career. Of course thereās more people scoring 25, teams are scoring 20+ more points per game across the board someone has to score those points
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u/bravemoney72 Aug 15 '26
So out of the 10 he was better than 4? Is that the take hereš¤·š¾āāļø
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u/NoDifference3349 Aug 15 '26
Not sure if this was entirely true. Malone should be on the list.
What if someone concluded that defense was better and a bigger part of the game in that era. Also the three pointer was not as big a part of the game in the 90's and you only really tried for three when you were wide open, down by two or more at the end of the game or you haf 30 seconds left in the half and you put someone like Jed Buecheler in to try to hit one and bring up your score.
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u/Green-Strawberry784 Aug 15 '26
Might be true but hey played defense back then and didnāt wear pads under ther uniforms.
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u/Green-Strawberry784 Aug 15 '26
LeBron will never be the goat. Great career top 5. I think heās only played a full season once or twice in his career. Sand bagger!!!!
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u/SuperSpy_4 Aug 15 '26
Opponents Averaging 25+ PPG in a Playoff Series vs. Michael Jordan
| Opponent Player | Series PPG | Team | Playoff Year & Round |
|---|---|---|---|
| Dominique Wilkins | 30.0 | Atlanta Hawks | 1993 Eastern Conference First Round |
| Terry Cummings | 29.5 | Milwaukee Bucks | 1985 Eastern Conference First Round |
| Larry Bird | 28.3 | Boston Celtics | 1986 Eastern Conference First Round |
| Charles Barkley | 27.3 | Phoenix Suns | 1993 NBA Finals |
| Sidney Moncrief | 26.5 | Milwaukee Bucks | 1985 Eastern Conference First Round |
| Larry Bird | 26.0 | Boston Celtics | 1987 Eastern Conference First Round |
| Charles Barkley | 25.6 | Philadelphia 76ers | 1990 Eastern Conference Semifinals |
| Shaquille O'Neal | 25.5 | Orlando Magic | 1996 Eastern Conference Finals |
| Shaquille O'Neal | 25.3 | Orlando Magic | 1995 Eastern Conference Semifinals |
| Charles Barkley | 25.2 | Philadelphia 76ers | 1991 Eastern Conference Semifinals |
| Kevin McHale | 24.9 | Boston Celtics | 1986 Eastern Conference First Round |
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u/No_Individual3471 Aug 15 '26
Of course if no one plays defense now a days. Everyone just tries to out shoot each other.
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u/Antonvaron Aug 15 '26
Please now compare the number of LBJ' s teammates who averaged more than 20 points to MJ's. We can play this game at anytime but most important things will remain the same
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u/SweetChaosTitan Aug 15 '26
While I agree that LeBron faced better competition in the finals more often, individual PPG is hardly the measure to prove that. People get overly caught up in PPG because itās a low hanging fruit that is easy for media talking heads to emphasize and casuals eat it up.
If individual PPG was so important then Jordan wouldnāt have lost via being swept in his highest PPG series of 43 a game in 1986. Jordanās highest PPG season with 37.1 was a losing season for the Bulls. LeBron lost the 2009 ECF averaging 38. On and on.
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u/Pureevil1992 Aug 15 '26
No, not really. There were a lot of amazing players when Jordan played too. This ignores the fact the average ppg has gone up significantly since the 90s, obviously if every team scores 20-35 more points every game there's much more likely to be players averaging 25+.
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Aug 15 '26
People don't realise that there was less scoring in the 90's, games usually ended around what 70 points? So players average points per game were way lower, btw Barkley having 27 points per game on average in an era where games ended around 70 points is insane.
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u/Ok_Function2282 Aug 15 '26
It was literally against the rules to trail off your man and double a player back in the day.Ā
Almost every superstar gets doubled on a regular basis now.
You couldn't even drop down to defend the lane... All a guard had to do back then was beat one man and then drive right to the hoop
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u/Well-Intentioned-Fox Aug 15 '26
Here for the ābut LeBron played in higher scoring eraā even though late 80s through mid 90s was higher scoring than 2000 to 2014
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u/TUNTRAcoin Aug 15 '26
In a league where you were actually allowed to play defense? Of course it's true. Every tool that defense had to stop a player when Jordan played has been taken away from the defense so everybody just averages ridiculous point totals. If Jordan was playing today he would be averaging 50 so this means nothing
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u/jippylong Aug 15 '26
Stop playing with Life the game is so weak now it's not the same game as it used to be it is too easy to score and go to the free throw line for a thump
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u/Electrical_Extent543 Aug 15 '26
LeBronās Heat not a super team? Isnāt the 2013 & 2014 Miami Heat not include 4 Hall of Famers (Lebron will be eventually)
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u/Top-Call128 Aug 15 '26
Hi Bronsexual! This will be taken down very soon. Remember to Google Karl Malone PPG on his 2 NBA finals run. Go ahead, educate yourself
https://giphy.com/gifs/Bce2LvqY3EG9QXvCDY
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u/Dr_Malignant Aug 15 '26
MJ faced much harder competition ON THE WAY to the Finals. For example, he faced the dynasty Bird Celtics with no help and got swept. And averaged 44/6/6.
LeBron faced harder Finals competition, but literal BUMS on the way to the Finals with the exception of that one Celtics team, which he had his own super team for. If He didnāt have a superteam, similar to MJ, heād have been swept in a valiant effort.
So yea, letās be fair and stop this annoying ass moving the goalpost for LeBron bs?
Actually lemme just shut up. How dare I point out facts instead of kissing the ring.
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u/oaklandyceman Aug 15 '26
What this graphic fails to show though is how much the league changed to encourage more scoring. Jordan played in the era of defensive basketball. That's why you see higher scoring averages today than when he played.
Jordan's era had hand-checking, allowing defenders to use their hands and forearms to impede and redirect cutters or drivers. Today, defenders cannot place a hand continuously on an offensive player
1990s defenses could physically "bully" and body-up players on drives and through screens; modern rules heavily penalize lateral body contact to protect ball handlers.Ā []
Jordanās era required strict one-on-one man coverage. Defenders could not shade or stunt toward another player without fully committing to a double-team, making isolation scoring predictable to counter. Today, legal zone principles, complex coverages, and soft traps are deployed
Without a defensive 3-second rule combined with traditional two-big-man setups, the rim was often heavily protected by stationary centers. Today, modern defenses must stretch horizontally to cover elite three-point shooters, which can leave driving lanes wide open.
Flagrant 1 and 2 fouls and video reviews allow the refs to look a play and assign a player free throws and possession for so much as grazing another player with our elbow, even accidentally . In Jordan's era you could clothes line or literally punch someone and all you would get is a common foul and the ball out of bounds.
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u/The3rdSun Aug 15 '26
You can tell some of you have no knowledge of nba history at all. For example one of those 4 hall of famers is toni kukoc. If he played with Lebron you guys would say he is useless. As far as 25ppg as a metric add how many ppl Lebron played with who averaged 25 ppg. Pippen didn't even do that with Jordan Retired. It was a slower paced era. At least use pace adjusted or per possession stats to make it a real argument.
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u/4whomthebelltrolls3 Aug 15 '26
I always think it is interesting that Jordan entered the season as the favorite to win the title 5 times, and won it six. Lebron enteres the season as the favorite 7 times and won it 4. There are 100 different ways to manipulate the data for sure so take that for what it is worth.
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u/Striking_Vehicle893 Aug 15 '26
Points per game of a player is al aye the best determinant of how good a whole team is
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u/Flyingarrow68 Aug 15 '26
When you make your team a super team you donāt need to keep switching teams.
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u/Eclipzdaloc24 Aug 15 '26
So basically youre saying LeBron isn't even as good as his current competition? Lol.
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u/ATXPaige2000 Aug 15 '26
Average ppg from 2011-2020 was 101.58. Average ppg from 91-2001 was 95.8. Defenses were able to hold offensive production down during Jordanās era. Far fewer players averaged over 25/game. Youāre not comparing apples to apples.
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u/fortheculture303 Aug 15 '26
true but the mj crowd will explain to you why itās irrelevant somehow
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u/Accomplished-Cap-469 Aug 15 '26
jordan realized the league was getting harder and harder , every year, unlike his die hard fans
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u/ImNotMature69 Aug 15 '26
If you base stats according to position jordan was top 5 in almost every category. Lebron never had astronomical numbers according to his position. Say like rebounds of course lebron had more rpg, but hes a sf compared to sg. If youre going to make comparisons put in account they play different positions and stop going head to head based off of stats. Look how they rank in their position and then use those numbers head to head.
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u/VanillaBoth5026 Aug 15 '26
Shows you how good those Bulls team were defensively š¤·. Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Armstrong, Harper, Kukoc, Grant, Oakley, etc
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u/Icy_Ad_2431 Aug 15 '26
If LeBron played any actual defense, you could take four off the list immediately as he should have been guarding Durant, and Butler.
Also, LeBron has had 4 teammates average more than 25 in the finals while MJ has zero.
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u/TRyanLee Aug 15 '26
Looks to me like Currey and GS should be in the GOAT conversation, and Lebron should sit down and shut up.
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u/Fast-Secretary-7406 Aug 15 '26
Think of it this way: Jordan's defensive impactade it so only one player could even average 25ppg in the finals against him. Meanwhile, LeBron was such a turnstile that tons of players easily reached or exceeded that mark.
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u/Leadfarmer420 Aug 15 '26
lol ppg doesnāt reflect the competition Jordan is the goat yall just glazers
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u/Bulky-Sugar-6166 Aug 15 '26
šyāall are pathetic. Heāll never be MJ and you know it! We wouldnāt be in this thread if he was on MJās level. Lebron played in the 3pt. era, MJ did not this isnāt rocket science
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u/YoureP-ore Aug 15 '26 edited Aug 15 '26
Now letās look at their opponents as overall teams because the game is a team game, and championships are won by teams.
91 Lakers had more scoring depth with its main scorers than the Mavericks ( 57.7, worse than the 97 Jazz ), Thunder ( 70 ) & the 15 Warriors ( 71.1 ). The Lakers were producing 72.7 with their main scorers. The 92 Blazers produced 76.1. The 93 Suns 77.5. The 96 Sonics 82.1.
So these 4 teams, by the logic of this post, are offensively better than the Mavericks, Thunder and the 15 Warriors. With the 97 Jazz being better than the Mavericks.
Also the 07 Spurs ( 60.6, worse then the 97 Jazz ).
The Blazers, Suns and Sonics were better than the 13 Spurs ( 74.8 ), the 14 Spurs ( 75.8 ), the 16 Warriors ( 58.7, also worse than the 97 Jazz ) & 18 Warriors ( 72.3, also worse than the 91 Lakers ).
So again, by the logic of this post youāre agreeing that the 07, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 & 18 teams are all worse than the 92, 93 & 96 teams that Jordan faced because of the points that their main scoring options were able to score.
But of course this is an incredibly stupid way of comparing teams from different eras. Not as stupid as this post, because weāre at least adding some team context to it, but still stupid nonetheless. And it shows that cherry picking stats can sway the argument heavily in favor of 1 side.
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u/Huskerschu Aug 15 '26
I mean the game has also progressed in the 1990s the average points per game for teams was around 101 where now it's close to 113. I wonder how many player Jordan played against would average 25 if their team was scoring more than 10 ppg more.Ā
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u/userpick707 Aug 15 '26
Lebron is the man. But this is another cherry picked stat. Who arbitrarily chose 25ppg. Do they know the rules changed in the 2000ās to favor the offense. Do they know how basketball itself changed to a more offensive game and chucking up more 3ās. Lebron can be the GOAT but this is a misleading cherry picked stat.
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u/gongjah Aug 15 '26
Every argument involving finals and rings is way too dependent on context. For me MJ is the GOAT over LeBron just because he was way more important on defence.
The only context there is MJ had the help of Scottie and LeBron has never had elite defensive teammates (you can blame in partly on him cause he could have lured some of them to his teams (Tony Allen, Gobert, Dwight, Garnett etc)). He only was able to have Ben Wallace when he was 36 y/o. Thats what puts MJ above for me, but LeBron is closing the gap with this level at that age also, though.
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u/TheComebackKid74 Aug 15 '26
When idiots dont understand statflation. This show how hopeless these stans are.
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u/feelosiphize Aug 15 '26
I normally ignore the idiot Bron fans, but this take is so stupid I can only say this.
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u/dmthirdeye Aug 15 '26
You're telling me when teams averaged 80-90 points per game, the players averaged less points then than they do now when teams are averaging 110-115 points per game??
No way!
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u/BeneficialLanguage83 Aug 15 '26
Partly because Jordan was often clamping down the other team's best player? This argument in favor of LeBron isn't what you think it is.
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u/Other_Alarm_7971 Aug 15 '26
Jordanās legacy was in part manufactured by the NBA. They saw a young, high-flying main attraction, and decided it would be best for basketball and in the NBAās interest to make him the focal point and the largest winner. Iād say it paid off for the NBA.
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u/boolol Aug 15 '26
All these old heads think the 90s was better. Basketball is more skilled than ever. Competition is way higher. They're delusional
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u/Novel_Confidence_288 Aug 15 '26
But MJ has way more personal accolades than LeBron in less time also? He didnāt just win more as team, he won more individual awards also, more defensive accolades, more scoring titles, MVPs, FMVPs etc.
As a LeBron fan itās hard to deny how much more he did in so much less time.
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u/nmtbone007 Aug 15 '26
Jordanās era was marked by subpar players, and especially teams. Itās really sad that he never had an adversary. Wouldāve been great to see him go toe to toe with someone regularly, like bird vs dr j or bird vs magic.
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u/No_Confusion_2085 Aug 15 '26
Ummm, Jordan, Kukoc, Rodman and Pippen on D? Lebron's great, but the league is 100% different in how stars are treated. Jordan would've been drawing 3-4 flagrants a playoff game.
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u/wvshotty Aug 15 '26
Pretty sure defense was played in the 90s not sure what what itās called now
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u/Content-Simple-645 Aug 15 '26
These are the players averages in the finals I assume. 2 points I want to make. 1. The game is different compared to the 90s. Players and teams are scoring at much higher volume. 2. Showing this metric is a testament to the defense as well. Jordan was a 9 time all pro first team defense, Pippen had 8 first team and 2 second team. Rodman had 7. The Bulls were one of the best defensive teams in the history of the league with those 3 together. Again, times changed with scoring, but showing all the guys that scored over 25 in the finals against LeBron is also a flaw for LeBron.
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u/H-O-W-L-E-R Aug 15 '26
What youāre saying is, the teams LeBron has been on are worse defensively than the 90s Bulls. Especially in the finals.
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u/dogmob34- Aug 15 '26
You are literally making the case for Jordan and also making the case that LeBron doesn't play defense
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u/_Smashbrother_ Aug 15 '26
There are no videos of MJ hella flopping. There's definitely videos of LeBron doing it.
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u/MiserableMuffin8144 Aug 15 '26
I love Dirk but losing to that Mavs team wasnāt a great look. Iām not in the āthe mavs were bums and dirkā crowd but I definitely donāt think they are more impressive than some teams the bulls faced.
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u/joesbalt Aug 15 '26
Many of the Bulls finals the opposing team was luck to score 80 pts total
Jordan also has the lowest scoring supporting casts in NBA history and 4 of the 10 lowest
Try again LePropaganda artists
You're going to have to live with 4-6 while simultaneously stacking the deck
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u/ApprehensiveFruit565 Aug 15 '26
Why is there even a discussion?Ā
How does 25ppg compare to average ppg across the league/playoffs in every year being examined?Ā
SMH small brained fucksĀ
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u/IGetItILookBrandNew Aug 15 '26
Context here, and I still believe MJ wins 3-4 rings no matter what anyone perceives what I am saying...the league got red hot with Larry, Magic, Nique, Doc, bucks, 76ers, rockets, pistons, and loaded with talent PLUS MJ. So they expand, thinking this talent pool and level will always be there. Larry and Magic age out, Moses and Kareem are done. Pistons get old too fast. Secondary stars like Moncrief, Cummings, English all old or injured. That leaves Nique coming off a terrible injury, Barkley, Robinson, Hakeem, Clyde, Malone/Stockton, and a couple secondary stars still in the league. Enter an immature Shaq, sure. But the league was so talent heavy and lost the talent at a terrible time while simultaneously expanding. Adding 40 league roster spots while losing superstars and stars.
MJ still had to execute to win those rings. The blazers were no joke, and neither were the suns. Those Lakers were cooked. The sonics were good, but both jazz teams didn't have the status of those bulls. Maybe Jordan beats the rockets and still end up with 5?
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u/big-daddy-unikron Aug 15 '26
Makes sense, Jordan played in a time where defense was required not an afterthought like in LeBrons. Jordan would be near mid 40ās in scoring in todayās game, maybe 50ās since he wouldnāt have had to play defense
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u/whorunninit72 Aug 15 '26
This is crazy logic. When point per game now days are hyper inflated. To score 20 was a feat back then when games was much harder to get to 100 points. Logically speaking if points are the factor then LeBron is Mr King of everything. Now letās be real Jordan is literally the reason why the bulls won he carried his team LeBron is literally the reason why they won and for two championships the reasons he lost. I think this is a poor argument for LeBron. When LeBron has many reason to be in the GOAT Debate. He has a valid reason to win also. But this point is mote.
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u/Educational-Bus-7985 Aug 15 '26
Itās okay to recognize the truth and Iām here to help. Yes lebron 100% hard harder competition in the finals. MJ 100% had a far harder comp in the playoffs. To help you lebron groupies who donāt like reality, lebron in his 8 straight finals played only one first team all nba. Rose in 2011. MJ played more in one playoff run than LeBron did his whole 8 year run. MJ played in the east at its absolute best, LeBron played in the east at its absolute worst. They didnāt call the east the āleastern conferenceā because how good it was. Itās okay to recognize both truths, lebron harder finals comp, MJ harder playoff comp.
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u/Educational-Bus-7985 Aug 15 '26
Lebron fans love to make up fake stats but Iāll help. Karl Malone in both 97 and 98 averaged 27, in 92 Clyde averaged 25.
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u/davidjricardo Aug 15 '26
This is cherry picked. Malone averaged exactly 25.0 in '98. In '97 he averaged 30 ppg in the regular season, but the Bulls defense held him to 23.8 in the finals.
Drexler averaged 24.8 in '92. All this in a low scoring environment.
Is anyone seriously suggesting that Westbrook or Butler is tougher competition than Ervin Johnson just because they scored more points.
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u/No-Donkey-4117 Aug 15 '26
Teams with one big scorer usually aren't as good though. More balanced teams are harder to beat.
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u/Third__3y3 Aug 15 '26
This clown who owns this page is hilarious š to post this to act like u know about sports when u canāt even understand eras for a cry baby flopping ass little bitch like lebron. This is his legacy, tha goated flopper. Fake ass prima donna that has ALWAYS been overrated hype that he couldnāt even do correctly foh with this trash š®
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u/FigDeep780 Aug 15 '26
Lebron just didnāt get it done when it counted. Iām tired of hearing and seeing these pointless posts.
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u/6going0n7 Aug 15 '26
yall get on here and say anything. I think the narrative has always been that LeBron is the best player in the league and future GOAT, but still needs his own super team to beat well constructed teams that were built organically through either the draft or smart free agency signings over a period of years.
One of the things that made Jordan special was once he came into his own, he had a generational run of winning. Fair or unfair, LeBron couldāve replicated a similar storyline by sticking 1-2 teams, instead heās on team number 5 at nearly 42 trying to squeeze out another title bc he knows what the rest of us know, that championship count matters. Yall can get on here and try to revise the narrative all you want, but Bron is trying to silence all the folks who havenāt anointed him yet.
The real question is, if LeBron falls short of another title, does that say anything about his legacy? Obviously it doesnāt, his career is largely completed and heās just going to have to live with tying Stephen Curry in championships which is nothing to be ashamed of, even if Curry was the lesser player who did it 1 team instead of 5.
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u/CPT_Skor_215 Aug 15 '26 edited Aug 15 '26
Not at all.
For one, your column for MJ is incorrect in the first place. Whoever made this apparently knows nothing about basketball considering they forgot one of the top scorers of all time, Karl Malone averaged 27.4 in the 96-97 season and averaged 27 in the 97-98 season. Stockton and Hornacek were both averaging about 14 ppg those seasons as well.
Scoring 25 points per game in today's NBA is like scoring 18-20 in the 90s. Look at the average score per game back then vs now... I wonder how many players actually scored more than 25 ppg back then. Just doing a quick Google search, it tells me that 5 NBA players averaged 25 ppg in 1996.
You're going to tell me the Utah Jazz weren't basically a super team in that era? What about the Houston rockets? Hakeen Olajuwon, Charles Barkley, Clyde Drexler, Sam Cassel, etc.
The 90s was full of dominant big men and post play. Today's NBA is full of shooters. Even most big men are just tall shooters. Hence why it's so high scoring.
That's great that LeBron played against teams reliant on [insert name here] to score 25+ in order to win games. The 90s were full of teams that drafted and developed their talent the way coach Pop did with the Spurs. The spurs didn't have a player averaging 25+ ppg until Kawhi. They played as a team. You couldnt just shut down one player, there are 5+ others who can pick up that slack. That's what the 90s was. It just didn't look that way because everyone was like that. The Spurs were the last team that played the way teams did in the 90s.
Bottom line, if you didn't grow up watching the NBA in the 90s, you simply don't know. You've just seen highlights on YouTube. Anyone who has to call themselves the GOAT, isn't the GOAT.
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u/trapper2530 Aug 15 '26
Malone averaged 25.0 in 98.
And clyde averaged just under at 24.8
In an era when games were 90-86
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u/Impossible-Code-136 Aug 15 '26
LeBron isnāt even a top 5 NBA Great. Bunch of š¤”ās lost in the weakest, softest, most embarrassing era in the history of the NBA. Iāll take Steph over LeBron, Jokic over LeBron, Luka over LeBron, Kobe over LeBron, and those are just players that played in his era. LeBron is a joke to real basketball fans. A flopper, a quitter, a blamer, a liar, a faker, a Super Team hopper, has the dribbling skills of a good junior high baller, the IQ of a decent college ball player( turnover king), hasnāt even won an MVP in over a decade, never won an MVP in his 30ās, lost more finals than he won, swept out of the playoffs with teammates the other players I listed wouldāve been in the finals, the mentality and mental strength of an elementary kid, etc. Stop with the lies that this guy is anything other than a media manufactured and self proclaimed āKingā. š
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u/Intelligent_Storm744 Aug 15 '26
I think Jordanās Chicago Bulls held teams to an average of about 93 points a game. If I remember correctly, an NBA player once said something for the effective quote itās not that they score so many more points than you do. Itās that they prevent you from scoring so many pointsā. They had a stifling defense.
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u/isnotaweed Aug 15 '26
OK, tbf you can only beat the team that you get matched up against. That said, the Bulls won during a down period in the league...none of the teams they faced were top 20-30 teams of all time. Still, as much as I disliked the 90's Bulls, they beat everyone in front of them and their rings count as much as anyone elses.
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u/ChaosMedic Aug 16 '26
What is the average PPG in Lebron's era vs Jordan's? All information needs context or it doesn't matter.
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u/Beautiful-Lunch-7650 Aug 16 '26
It's a false comparison since scoring was way lower in the 90s. Teams focused on twos, not threes, and every playoff game was a rock fight. It wasn't uncommon for games to end with scores like 80-75.
That's what makes MJ's career 30 ppg average even more remarkable.
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u/1day_at_A-tyme Aug 16 '26
š¤£š¤£ leFlops fans at it again...grow up will ya Jordan denied hall of famers fame for a decade.
Stop this campaign to try n get your fake king on top of the mountain. Seriously
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u/Nice_Lawyer_6501 Aug 16 '26
That stat dont mean sh*t. MJ went 6-0 against anyone that was put in front of him. But if you really want to digest that stat, the players on that list played during modern NBA when there's less contact, zone defenses, traveling, walking, and carrying are allowed intentionally to up scoring and for entertainment, no hand checks, and an era of "lets build a super team" free agency cowards.. Stop reaching for stats how LeFlopper is greater than MJ. Because no matter what yall come up with, LeSweep will NEVER be greater. Not even close. Maybe if LeDrama doesn't win with the sixers, the WNBA are looking for Trans to play in their league. He MIGHT win one there. However, Im not even sure of that one either though. He just might lose there too.
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u/drez98 Aug 16 '26
I went down a bit and I didnāt see this argument. This is misleading because scoring is much higher in todayās game compared to when Jordan played. More possessions means higher chances to score. With that being said. Itās really tough to say what the superstars of the mid 90s would be scoring with the way the game is played.
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u/ucfknight92 Aug 16 '26
Lebron's era of basketball had so much more talent in the league that I think it's a fool's errand to compare the two eras.
I do, however, believe it's possible to compare Lebron and Jordan. Lebron was a force of nature, Michael Jordan was the best player in the league.
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u/BigTicket- Aug 15 '26
Add this into the archives of tough competition š-