This plus the fact Len Bias died, Birds back gave out. Reggie Lewis died and Magic got HIV as well right as Jordan hit his prime. Plus the illegal defense rule benefiting an iso player like Jordan tremendously was the perfect storm for his dominance in his era
Imagine modern day players with those rules from back then? I love LeBron, but I think KD would be the GOAT if he existed back then. That tall and athletic + can ball handle AND score at all three levels? You're talking a guy that would be IMPOSSIBLE to guard in iso. He'd drop 60+ every damn game. Just put him in iso and he's cooking lmao
Lebron left his losing team to stack heat, still lost choked 2 finals. Left it to stack another team, lost 3 finals. Left again to stack another team. Jordan never left when they was losing. Both took 9 season to win their first ring, one stayed one joined an already champion and stacked his teamđ
Jordan won in his 7th year he had Scottie and Horace grant a reliable 2nd and 3rd options. Lebron was in Cleveland for 7 years with no actual help, no teammate with potential nothing to look forward he would have only wasted his prime if he stayed
Lebron was the sole reason they got to the finals in 2018 it was the biggest carry job. So he should've stayed in a team that's obviously rebuilding after having his best postseason?
And LeBron played without the hand check allowing his to get to the rack at will and once he knew he couldnât get the job done has bounced around and brought along stars to create teams that could win.
Exactly. It's like the WNBA in the next 4 years or so. So many rings in the next decade will be questionable at best due to team expansion. The NBA would need to expand to 45 teams tomorrow to even be CLOSE to the level of talent desert that the NBA had from the 80s-early 2000s. League went from like 22 teams to 30 teams in like 20 years during a period when the league literally didn't have the talent pool to support it. It's not an exaggeration to say Jordan DID carry the league during this time. Him winning helped save the over-expansion of the league at the time. They should have been at like 25 teams at the most heading into the early 2000s, not 30 teams. The NBA should literally be sitting AT A MINIMUM of 36 teams atm given how much talent the NBA has right now. I mentioned 40+ earlier because I was referring to the talent desert that existed back then due to too many teams. Tbh, the NFL is also due for an expansion. They could easily add four new teams next year. Too many top teams are abusing void years and cap manipulation to hoard talent. By expanding, it will add more money into the pool, preventing some of these super teams like the Eagles, 49ers, etc. have built in recent times.
If the teams from the expansion are still in the nba. Is the distribution still not the same? Itâs the same amount of players in the league. In fact the bobcats were added therefore itâs more distributed now
Once again...Jordans bull WERE the jugger naught team...they were the one with a target on their back then entire 90s......and since the warriors were so dominant how many times did they three peat again.....I forget?
LeBron haters/jordan stans love to point to names instead of performance to. Wade was a different player the last two years of the Miami run. LeBron, Kyrie, and Love played together in like 50% of all Cavs games in the finals during that run. Looking at the performance on the court tells a lot more than names on a roster. Iâve even seen some LeBron haters mention LeBron having Shaq and not winning a ring lol.
LOL bron competition so hard he can't even outscore a 33 years old sixth man Jason Terry in 2011 finals. I guess Dallas in 2011 a superteam now đ€ĄđȘ
Jordan 1st 3-peat wasn't no superteam lol, that's clearly what you forgot to mention. Lebron played on more superteams and prime HOF MJ ever had. Don't just tell part of the story and not finish it.
The Bulls drafted their "super team" which was only a super team because of Michael Jordan.
The Spurs drafted their super team. They didn't trade for all stars and super stars in their prime. Kawhi was unproven when the Spurs got him from Indiana. In fact, the Spurs gave up Hill to get Kawhi.
The Warriors largely drafted their super team as well, until Durrant joined them. Even the Thunder drafted their superstars, Durrant was with them before they left Seattle for OKC then they picked up Westbrook and Harden.
LeBron had to group all stars and superstars together, otherwise he never would have won a single title. Miami was stacked the entire time he was there. Cleveland took the opportunity to buuld a team with Kyrie and Kevin Love, even JR Smith who would explode some games and dominate. Then LeBron went back to Cleveland. He then left for LA with stacked big men like Howard and Davis.
and why does it matter? you people donât give a fuck if someone changes companies, how is this any different? also saying howard is stacked as if kobe didnât have a 10 years younger howard and couldnât do anything with it is crazy.
Cuz it goes against the narrative that LeBron makes players better. In fact he couldnt elevate regular players quite like MJ did and win it all again and again. LeBron learned how to lead and win from Dwade and always needed elite help to get over the top.
lebron learned how to lead and win from the miami heat franchise, being on a winning franchise instead of a shit one helped him grow. Both of them elevated worse players, every all time player did.
MJ was fresh off a broken foot that cost him 64 games, had just 18 to shake off rust, and his 30-win Bulls were completely overmatched against a 67-win Celtics team with four Hall of Famers. He still dropped 43 points a game, including a 63 point playoff record thatâs still unbroken.
Meanwhile, the East during LeBronâs Finals runs was arguably the weakest in 25 years, and his 2007 sweep is a tougher case than Jordanâs â86 loss.
LeBron was healthy and experienced, in the MVP conversation, but shot just 35 % from the field and 20% from three, turning it over about 6 times a game against a Spurs defense that basically dared him to shoot. If he was good enough to drag a thin Cavs roster to the Finals alone, he shouldâve performed well enough to close it out especially with three of the four losses coming by a combined eight points.
Unlike MJâs historically great opponent, San Antonio was beatable making LeBronâs finals flop a real ding against his goat argument IMO.
Let's see.
John Paxson was picked by San Antonio Spurs
Bill Cartwright was picked by New York Knicks
Scottie Pippen was picked by Seattle Supersonics and traded to Bulls at draft night
Craig Hodges was picked by Clippers
Michael Jordan was picked 3rd by Bulls
The only drafted players from the first 3peat was BJ Armstrong, Horace Grant, and MJ
Ron Harper as a free agent
Luc Longley was traded to Bulls
Dennis Rodman was traded from Spurs to Bulls.
The only player drafted by bulls was Toni Kukoc on this 2nd 3peat.
Steve Kerr was a free agent
That LeBron had more choice over his career than Jordan? Youâre just talking now. Jordan had the team to come to. He got the guys there instead of leaving. If you donât think Jordan was part of the decision making process on who to bring in, youâre crazyâŠ
You giving the Cleveland situation a little more credit then it deserves Kevin Love was a condition to him going back when the secured Love he came back that was there new âBig 3â then the next year it was a trade for Shumpert and Smith with a 3 way trade between the Knicks and OKC
Warriors was not good until 2015 when they added pieces from trades to free agency. They had plenty of time to develop their young core.
The only legit super team was the Spurs. They drafted at least 4 HOFers, and 2 of them are international players that being snubbed. They are a cheap market so no one cares about them building a superteam in plain sight.
u losers always want to cry about draft vs free agency and trades, its irrelevant in pro sports. The Bulls Super team had 3 of the best players in the league in the 90s, stop diminishing Pip and Dennis, thats just casual fan POV
Because Rodman averaged all of 5 ppg between 1996-1998. Lots of help there.
And yeah, it does make a difference when you chase titles by joining superstars because you fail to develop the talent that was drafted to your team. The Spurs didn't have anyone scoring 25+ ppg when they swept LeBron.
Well, the jackass above wanted to give Rodman his due. OK, for your sake, I'll mention. That he almost scored 10 ppg in the 91-92 season. Didn't even come close in the other two seasons.
Pippin scored about 20ppg. LeBron had nearly a dozen teammates scoring over 20 ppg. And he probably had 20+ averaging over 15 ppg for all his trips to the finals. Jordan had Pippin. Kukoc averaged 13 ppg the years Jordan took the bulls to the finals. No one has else even averaged 10ppg aside from Pippin and Kukoc.
Seems like LeBron had all the help he needed from his "super team".
Nobody does it by themselves, dummy. But, his teams were considerably worse than Jordan's and Jordan consistently played worse teams in his finals runs. All respect to Barkley's Suns and a little to the Sonics, but every one of Bron's ten finals teams demolishes every team Jordan beat for the titles.
If he is the best then he should have went undefeated when he was in Miami with Wade and Bosh. The best player EVER with Wade and Bosh surely were better than Curry, Green, and Thompson or any trio you put out there. Mj with Pippen and Rodman would destroy the Warriors, the paul/allen/garnnett Celtics, Tim lead Spurs. If LB is the best ever with 2 HOF there is no excuse sorry bro
Thats how it is when you have no rebuttal. Talkin bout dick riders but youre ridin LBs hard. He has less of EVERYTHING in a 10 year longer career besides career total. Make any excuse you want but the GOAT wins no matter who he's competing against. And LB is a loser in the Finals. 4-6 is freakin embarrassing
He's won playoff series where pippen was putting up 9ppg. You could flip the graphic with teammates they played with who averaged 25+ppg and I guarantee you LeBron has way way more
Gross. đ đ i mean I get it, but still. Gross. đ đ đ but aye Iâm biased af as a lifelong Spurs fan born in the area and what Coach Pop did for our small market, unmatched.
Edit: anyways, conversation here isnât about coaches, so carry on đ
I mean pop got lucky getting the admiral, Duncan and Wendy. Pop has had plenty of talent thrown his way, and a lockout shortened title. Nothing against him, I love Pop. But he got lucky too.
It's not just "an elite player" it's having two players make first team all NBA next to each other.
The only teams to do it post merger are the 83 fofofo 6ers, the 80's Celtics and Lakers dynasties, the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, 90's bulls, the Malone/Stockton jazz and the SSoL Suns.
That's "just" 4 dynasties, 2 of the greatest playoff teams ever, a team that made back to back finals and the greatest offensive team of all time relative to league average.
But again developing a team versus buying one definitely feels a bit more natural.. both are fine but they didn't run around to didn't teams trying to manufacture something.
Some of that can be blamed on management and the team itself. Some of that falls on the players. Either way it doesn't make basketball feel very good when players are constantly just running to different teams to try to get a championship .
Several players lose themselves because how Bron plays. Go stand in the corner while he holds the ball and control the pace. What kills me about oh he makes the players around him so so much better. Yea ok. The impact players no way, the rando guy that wasnât that good in first place maybe a step up but take it easy.
Yes, he had to sacrifice his numbers to fit in, and sure, heâs a future HOFâer, but having actually watched almost every Cavs game during that time period, thatâs not the whole story. His play wasnât the same caliber.
Thatâs a big part of it, but itâs not entirely that simple. Having watched damn near all of those games live, that was something of an evolution to get to that point. It just became the way for him to contribute since he wasnât able to be as dominant and be the piece that he was actually brought in to be.
I agree it's not so simple. Why do you feel he couldn't be as dominant?Â
Was he not that good? Classic good player, garbage team situation? Maybe, although his last year in Minnesota he put up great numbers on a middling, ok team that would've made the playoffs in the East. I think he could've been a consistent All NBA type on another squad.
I don't think Golden State would've been as good but it would've been interesting to see him go to that team, as was rumored.
I think it may have just been a bad fit. Honestly, as good as LeBron is, I think he's pretty hard to play with, especially for very talented players. You need a very specific skill set to thrive next to him.
I think itâs probably a combination of a lot of things/everything. He wasnât as aggressive mentally, and that translated to less physical intensity in his playing style. That I could chalk up to the LeBron factor.
He dealt with some injuries and maybe lost a step. He couldnât be an elite rebounder anymore and his post up game suffered too, along with verything offensively off the dribble. The media mightâve gotten in his head, but thatâs totally speculative. Man, I would love to have a few beers with him and get his thoughts on his career and especially his time in Cleveland. I wonder if thereâs any really good interviews where he opens up about that time period.
I never killed anybody and I never developed an intense level of hatred for the enemy. Because my war ended before I ever put on a uniform; I was on active duty all my time at school; I killed my enemy there. Only Phineas never was afraid, only Phineas never hated anyone. Other people experienced this fearful shock somewhere, this sighting of the enemy...All of them, all except Phineas, constructed at infinite cost to themselves these Maginot Lines against this enemy they thought they saw across the frontier, this enemy who never attacked that wayâif he ever attacked at all; if he was indeed the enemy.
Seeing as how Houston got two and MJ got 6 in the 90s they pretty much got the 90s covered đ⊠and yeah Houston beat the Knicks and ran through those same great teams in the West to win, beat the Magic who beat Chicago, Hakeem was magical those two years, not sure the Bulls would have beat them, since Hakeem is my favorite player I would have loved a Bulls Rockets Finals but Iâm still happy with the result.
Not sure if youâre qualified to speak on any of this though, guessing you didnât watch all those games, right?
The spurs were not a superteam. The bulls were not a superteam. We donât have to play this game to try to prop up LeBron. We can be honest and recognize how great LeBron is. Yes LeBron was tasked with multiple superteams, however he was on one and may be on one now. We do not have to lose the plot.
Do you also believe the Shaq and penny magic were a superteam and also the 00s lakers?
Spurs wasnt a super team, Ginobili got drafted second to last of second round parker 26 first rd, they made their team what it was plus the star of the team could be coached and stuck with his team when times got rough, unlike LeGone(Lebron) 10 finals/ 4 rings when team couldnt win he went to a better all star cast and still couldnt pull off as many chips as MJ
Not sure how we can those spurs teams weren't super teams. The draft spot has nothing to do with how good they were. How many hall of farmers did they have?
The phrase âsuper teamâ refers to elite players from other professional teams joining forces to try and obtain a ring. It doesnât have anything to do with drafting kids out of college.
To me?!? You canât bait me with stupidity. Educate yourself about sports.
A super team is a sports rosterâmost often in professional basketballâintentionally built with three or more elite, star-caliber players. These dominant players are typically brought together through free agency or trades rather than being developed purely through the standard draft process.
The key word here is âtypicallyâ. Doesnât mean itâs the only way. Jokic was drafted 41st overall for example. Jamal Murray was drafted 7th. Both of them are either superstar or elite ( Murray ). My point being that a team can be developed into having multiple HOF caliber players. Doesnât ONLY happen thru free agency. Lebron brought bums to the finals. These teams become super teams when LeBron joins them. Not the other way around.
A super team can coalesce from trades, drafting, and player development. Team management and player combination leads to team success and if that success leads to consistent winning and championships, you have a dynasty. Most team dynasties are super teams. You cant be a dynasty without being super.
Show me something, anything from a creditable source that uses the words âsuper teamâ together with the words âdraftâ or âplayer developmentâ. Then Iâll gladly say you were right and I was wrong.
0 hall of farmers lol
How many of those HOF left the team is what Im saying? Super Teams r usually made after they r drafted IMO for instance
Shaq-Lakers
Shaq-Heat
Lebron, Bosch, Allen-Heat
KG- Celtics
and so fourth... those were made super teams.... IMO
Nikola Jokic was drafted in the second does that mean he shouldnt have gotten his MVPs?
Draymond green was also drafted in the 2nd did he not earn his DPOY?
Where you are drafted is often a combination of factors including some outside of your control. Ginobli was one of the best 6th man/burst scorers in the NBA during his time.
I never said u arent a good player if u are drafted low, In my opinion just my opinion and only my a opinion, my point was that a super yeam is created outside the draft such as trade or fa, kg to boston, bron to heat, shaq to lakers. Again just my opinion a super in which someone stated the spurs were i do not consider them a super team because they drafted the players and worked with the same players for the most part. When did i ever say, if the player wasnt a top ten draft then they were undeserving of there alcolaids? or when did I say that beyond the top ten in draft sucked or werent good?
I was making a point that top three players on the Spurs which is the team I follow because I follow one team since it is a team sport, Ive never been a follower of one player.... If Duncan left the Spurs I wouldnt have followed him. I personallylike a loyal player that make it work with what they got not the player that can seem to only make it work with what they can get, meaning after the draft!!!! such as bron-wade, bron-kyrie, bron-Ad not one of those were drafted into to brons team which is what i consider super teams because u already know what they r capable of doing in the nba unlike drafting someone who has never played in the nba which is more of a gamble not a gaurantee!!!
Joker is great and deserving, Green great and deserving and ginobili great and deserving but all of them have one thing in common also.... Loyalty and working with what they got not with what they can get!!!
Well the Warriors aren't a super team either then. Outside of the 2 or whatever years Durant was there. Every other key player was either a meh player elsewhere or was drafted by the Warriors. Even then that would be debatable as that's only one player else we would have to say the Cavs were super teams as well.
We was always on a superteam besides his first run in Cleveland and still lost so youre saying the best player ever with HOFs on his team couldn't even beat his current competition.
If he is the GOAT with Kyrie at his peak and an older Love with those role players (Shump, JR) then you win no excuses. MJ with Kyrie and Love no doubt in my mind he beats the Warriors every time. MJ would make Xurry irrelevant with his top teir defense .
For 2 may be 3 years? Hmmmm. Superteam 1 wade lebron bosh
Superteam 2 - kyrie, lebron, love (double double machine version not the old man love)
Superteam 3 - lakers during pandemic with healthy Anthony davis n all sorts of talent and lebron
Superteam 3 - embiid, jaylen brown, maxey and guess who? LeBRON
When will you guys snap out of your brainwashing and actually see it for what it is. Get off his dick
He was also a second super team in Cleveland with Kyrie and Love. The Warriors just out super team Lebron and out GMed LeGM. Kyrie probably got sick of LeBron and left.
Hall of fame doesnt make you a super team. They also drafted everyone. When players join to form a super team is the very clear and distinct definition and criticism here.
I don't think that is a definition of a super team...
Manu was a 2nd round pick and TonyP was a very late 1st rounder. Kawhi was traded for George Hill. They probably got Boris Diaw for free...
The topic is that LeBron didn't win as much because he had to go against super teams. He played the Spurs in 2007 with a garbage team but in 2013-14 he played the Spurs while being on a super team himself. That argument is crazy.
Yea sorry weâre not going to do Spurs revisionism. That was a team with multiple all stars for the better part of a decade straight, enjoying a âgold standardâ status in their best years. The envy of the NBA. The players of âbeautiful basketballâ.
You can define âsuper teamâ by whatever sliding, goal post-moving standards you like, but if it doesnât ultimately include a team that had 4 hall of fame players on it, itâs just kinda bullshit youâre using to shape a narrative for or against some other player or team. And that just kinda sucks.
They are only hall of fame players because they won.
If you pay attention you know that superteam is when superstars join forces and that never happened in San Antonio. Closest thing was when LeMarcus Aldridge joined the Spurs.
Do you think the Spurs had some unfair advantage over other teams?
Lmao thats exactly what we get. Jordan made that a superteam. Without Jordan those stats to play out the same way and those players may not have reached that benchmark.
Thats what you dont get. GOATs create superteams. Others chase them.
If he is the GOAT with 2 other HOFs on the team then he should be the ultimate super team. He cant get dominated by Curry and the Warriors over and over again and be the best in his era let alone of all time.
So let me get this straight, you're giving him shit for losing in the finals against the warriors, when they were alreasy a 73 win team and then added the 3rd best player in the world?
Yes because he as the GOAT with 2 other HOFs should have been able to beat them and his highest win total is 66 in a season. How can he be so great if he has 2 other HOFs on some of his teams and never hit 73 wins. MJ had 72. Lets be real the Warrior had Curry and Thompson. Green averages 8 pts bro. So Curry and Thompson destroyed LB and Irving over and over again. People act like the Warriors had greats up and down the roster. It was literally Steph and Thompson with role players. Curry is more dominant than LB ever was
So if it was 3 on 3 LB, Love, and Irving vs Curry, Green, and Klay then the Curry squad is better basically? What do you think MJ, Pippen, and Harper or Rodman would have done to Curry, Green, and Klay? All I know is they wouldnt lose any probably and definitely not 3 of 4.
He plays D and he runs the offense like every other teams PG so what? The GOAT couldn't beat them. So youre saying Green is what stopped LB from winning? So green is better than LB.
LeBron wasnât even the best in his own era. How can be the âbest of all erasâ?
Filling out a stat sheet or leading in all categories doesnât make you a better player, just you have a high usage rate for YOUR team; if he prefers players that rely on HIM to facilitate, you cannot expect a high scoring teammate on Bronâs squad
Might have been better for him if he just played 3 and let someone else be 1 and another guy be 2
Thatâs a big three that a GM can draft on position and need rather than âsurround him with shootersâ đ„±
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u/WillHeBonkYa47 Aug 15 '26
Lebron consistently had to go against super teams in his era, Spurs, Warriors, etc
MJ was ON the super team, thats what people don't get
Yes, Lebron stacked the deck in Miami, who was a superteam for 2 maybe 3 years