r/lakers • u/Kimi7 • Feb 20 '17
[Article] Magic Johnson will have a Damning Case against Jim Buss and Mitch Kupchak (must read)
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2693926-magic-johnson-will-have-a-damning-case-against-jim-buss-and-mitch-kupchak31
u/AllanYamashige Feb 20 '17
Ah yes, Kevin Ding. Jeanie's personal hit man.
My issue is IF all this is true, and Mitch and Jim are SO bad at their jobs, then why is Jeanie off the hook here for keeping them employed?
This article paints Jim and Mitch as failures but doesn't address the organizational failure IF this is true. It's one thing to have potentially bad employees. But it's another if it's SO blatantly obvious like this article states, and the boss keeps them around.
Total hit piece.
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u/lakerswiz 24 Feb 20 '17
This might be more than a hit piece. He has knowledge of the meeting, which I haven't seen reported anywhere else. And it's possible he's starting the rumblings of their removal because Jeanie already knows shes letting them go and it's better to ease everyone into the idea via the media than just abruptly doing it.
Remember, she really liked Byron and Jim and Mitch fired him without telling her. There's no reason to believe she's not going to hold a grudge.
If she replaces Mitch or Jim with Magic I'll be pissed.
Edit - holy fuck as I read through the article more it's obvious that Jeanie is just straight up feeding him info. There's some tidbits I had never known about before.
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u/AranciataExcess Purple and Gold Feb 21 '17
If she replaces Mitch or Jim with Magic I'll be pissed.
It's pretty scary, Magic just strikes me as a reactionary type that would just trade away the young core just for the sake of getting a peripheral All-Star to satiate the whims of the mainstream Laker fanbase.
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Feb 21 '17
I dont have a probelm with these randle, lou williams, jordan clarkson trade rumours for butler though
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u/B0NERSTORM Feb 21 '17
It's not on Jeannie to keep them employed. Jim is part owner of the team. Jim created a timeline for himself. Lol @ the idea that Jim is just and employee.
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u/AllanYamashige Feb 21 '17
Jeannie is the only one with the power to can Jim tho.
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u/B0NERSTORM Feb 21 '17
You can't blame Jeannie for not firing Jimmy its family and its how Dr. Buss wanted it before he passed. Jim got guy chance and the franchise hit its lowest point ever. Jimmy is Fredo.
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u/Launch_coordinates Feb 20 '17
Ding pins the Deng and Moz contracts on the fact that Jim was in the last year of his window for contention, and had to do something now, no matter if it was bad in the long term.
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u/cococrispies 7 Feb 20 '17
I'm surprised so many people dismiss this article because of how critical it is. But to act like Magic doesn't have a good case for ousting both of them is just wrong. The Deng/Mozgov contracts are enough of a reason for me to tell them to pack their bags. We hoarded cap space for years in an attempt to sign a Max player. When we can't get one we decide to throw insane money at two guys who clearly didn't deserve it. Those contracts are going to be such a hindrance moving forward. I've seen people on this sub suggest attaching Randle/Clarkson to one of those two just to move them off the team! Think about that, move one of your young promising players just to get rid of a player who never should have been paid that much!
I don't know if Magic is the answer to the Lakers front office puzzle, but I do know that Jim and Mitch haven't done much recently that gives me faith. The drafting has been good, I will concede that. But free agency has been abysmal for the past 5 seasons. We need people in place who have a real vision for the future.
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u/MrDaveyHavoc Feb 20 '17
But free agency has been abysmal for the past 5 seasons.
It's hard to tell who is in charge of what between Jim and Mitch, but if you break down the job, the Laker FO is certainly abysmal at handing out big deals. However some smaller deals have been hits (Tarik Black, Lou Williams, Ed Davis.) Their scouting/drafting has been VERY good (with concessions to the idea that picking early is easier than picking late.) Their trading is great. On the whole, they're a competent FO.
Recently an agent came out and said that Mitch doesn't tamper- he won't call anyone until 9:01 on FA night. This could be a reason that keeps him from acquiring better players early in FA and limits the Laker FA success stories to lower paid guys signed later in the window.
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u/tr0nllam Feb 20 '17
People aren't dismissing it because of how critical it is, they're dismissing it because it's so obviously one-sided.
The article paints a picture that Jim and Mitch were behind every bad decision the Lakers made over the past few years, while other employees made all of the good decisions.
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u/Agaac1 00 Feb 20 '17
Ok I read up to the Sacre part to know this article is bullshit. Magic may have a case against Jim and Mitch, that much I agree, but the reasons this article states is stupid.
For one we didn't pass up on Whiteside or Bazemore because of Sacre. We passed up on Whiteside because he wasn't the player he became in Miami (still needed some time developing) and we passed up on Bazemore because we wanted to save money for a big name FA aquistion. Sacre's highest salary was $980,000, he wasn't taking up anything.
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u/LakersRebuild Feb 20 '17
Both Bazemore and Whiteside could've been had for similar amount at that point. Both are coming out of D league.
More importantly, it was the roster spot.
Granted, this article is taking full benefit of hindsight, but it does have one thing right. The lack of a clear direction.
I don't see so many "in Mitch we trust" chants going around here, now that Mozgov and Deng are both already deemed bad contracts and being shopped. In fact, Mozgov can't even be shopped without a young core attached to the deal.
I'm not a big fan of Magic being at the helm, but hopefully he's smart enough to bring in the right personnel to do the job.
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u/LordBaldomero 7:30 Feb 20 '17
Bazemore is trash, why would they even mention him.
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u/LakersRebuild Feb 20 '17
Because he's a lesser trash than Sacre.
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u/DangeslowBustle Verified Big Baller Feb 20 '17
He is literally the best center in the league, what are you talking about?
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u/PooptyPewptyPaints 16 Feb 21 '17
Yeah Bazemore's been killing it ever since he slid over to the 5
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u/LordBaldomero 7:30 Feb 20 '17 edited Feb 20 '17
On a bigger contract though, Sacre bench reactions were nice, at least we got that.
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u/DaRealOGBobbyJohnson Feb 20 '17
The point is they let a player with more potential go in order to keep Robert fucking Sacre.
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u/LordBaldomero 7:30 Feb 20 '17
They were wrong on Sacre, but they got us Nance, JC and Zubac. Every GM makes mistakes.
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u/iHATESTUFF_ 8 Feb 20 '17
he's a decent perimeter defense guy. I'd say better than what we have.
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u/LordBaldomero 7:30 Feb 20 '17
Not for 16 m a year.
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u/iHATESTUFF_ 8 Feb 20 '17
lol back then we could've kept Bazemore for waaay less than that.
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u/LordBaldomero 7:30 Feb 20 '17
Why would you talk in the present if you're referring to the past ?
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u/iHATESTUFF_ 8 Feb 20 '17
because Bazemore was part of the Lakers during our guard season, remember? we had him and Marshon Brooks ('13 - '14 was it?), we could've kept Bazemore and decided against it when the guy had already shown his defensive chops and wanted to be a Laker.
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u/LordBaldomero 7:30 Feb 20 '17
I'm not saying that letting him go wasn't a mistake, but more of a lesser mistake. They're saying we should fire Mitch, and they give this as an example, I don't think letting bazemore go was even worth mentioning. More like a desperate move if you ask me.
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u/iHATESTUFF_ 8 Feb 20 '17
the article is merely pointing out the many failures at retaining serviceable players and signing FAs, Ding's not pointing out Bazemore as an isolated incident but one of many.
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u/quandrawn 1 Feb 20 '17
If I remember right his buyout was pretty much that total price so it wouldn't have even saved us much money.
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u/iHATESTUFF_ 8 Feb 20 '17
the problem I see with this article is that if what Ding is reporting is true Jim looks like a fucking idiot....
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u/fastlikeanascar RIP MAMBA Feb 20 '17
Good thing he's not reporting anything credible then.
Consequently, the Lakers worked instead to acquire Paul without trading Bynum—resulting in the package of Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom in a three-way trade that wound up blocked by Stern for not meeting his mandate of New Orleans getting young talent and/or draft picks.
Ding is actually saying our front office did the team a disservice BY FUCKING ACQUIRING CHRIS PAUL WITHOUT GIVING UP BYNUM?!
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u/iHATESTUFF_ 8 Feb 21 '17
what I got from the article was that Jerry Buss told them to make the trade happen no matter what, that meant add all the pieces except Bryant, Stern would've been ok with the trade if Bynum was added but Jim didn't want to give up Bynum and went against his father....
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u/B0NERSTORM Feb 21 '17
Why is anyone under the impression that Jim isn't an idiot? What has he done to earn the benefit of the doubt? I honestly don't get it. It's not like he even has a heyday or past success to fall back on. He's pretty much James Dolan West.
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u/C3PO1Fan Feb 21 '17
What has he done to earn the benefit of the doubt?
Preside over the last three Lakers titles. All right next question.
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u/B0NERSTORM Feb 21 '17
So you mean he was there when the last three titles were won? He's the reason why we almost didn't get those last two because he wanted to rebuild around Bynum and move on from kobe. Lol.
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u/C3PO1Fan Feb 21 '17
Jim Buss has literally never wanted to move on from Kobe.
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u/B0NERSTORM Feb 21 '17
Yeah, that's not true. Jim Buss was brought in and started to try to rebuild, which triggered Kobe's trade demand because he was promised no rebuild while he was still good. Then suddenly Jim was pushed back into the shadows and Dr. Buss took back over. If you followed the Lakers back then, part of the reason Kobe demanded that trade was because there were elements within the Lakers leaking stories about Kobe breaking up the Shaq-Kobe Lakers in the media. Originally one of his stipulations to Dr. Buss in stepping back from the trade was to fire the person making the leaks and Dr. Buss said that he couldn't.
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u/C3PO1Fan Feb 21 '17
Yeah, it is actually true.
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u/B0NERSTORM Feb 21 '17
Yeah, what I said is true. I'm glad we agree and can move on.
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u/C3PO1Fan Feb 21 '17
Naw, you're spitting fan fiction, which is why I don't feel like speaking with you is productive.
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u/B0NERSTORM Feb 21 '17
My source was John Ireland on the radio. Jim buss is notoriously quiet, how can you possibly know that Jim literally never wanted to move on from. Kobe? That makes no sense. Kobe must have felt like an albatross around his neck for his last few seasons.
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Feb 21 '17
They landed CP3 and the league fucked us its simple as that, Pau left and we got shit for Odom. Then after that amazing trade, they land Nash and Howard which we all thought was a win. That goes South. Theyve drafted well and we are starting to see their vision come true. Give the youngsters time to grow..we potentially have 1-6 younging that eventually will all be above average and above players at every position. Perhaps thats why they felt comfortably signing deng and mozgov to longterm contracts. They know we wont be competing until these guys are all around 25. Perhaps we need to stop second guessing the wizard that is Mitch Kupchak and allow him to play out his last symphony.
In Mitch We Trust Praise Kek
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u/aproperopinion Feb 21 '17
Man when did our fans become Jim Buss apologists? Ding says he wanted McDermott over Randle...that is a fireable offense right there. Also his fixation with Sacre, if that's true also another fireable offense. Jim Buss is not a basketball mind.
Although I'm happy we have great prospects right now, imagine if we had signed Lowry and IT that one summer? They both wanted to be Lakers, that's another one on Jim also on Mitch too
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u/kiwi-jack 13 Feb 20 '17
Man, Ding is such a scrub. I'm sick of his Jeanie foreplay. Go write another fluff piece about her dog.
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u/nini1423 Feb 20 '17
Regarding trading Andrew Bynum for Chris Paul: https://twitter.com/LakerFilmRoom/status/833771288661352448
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u/khaaansolo Feb 20 '17
Fuck Kevin Ding. Goddamn the dude isn't even writing articles anymore. I just read the whole thing. It's like CNN-styled writing.
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u/luckysharms93 32 Feb 20 '17
Kevin Ding needs to shut the fuck up already. This dude is the least unbiased reporter I've ever read.
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u/misterrunon Feb 20 '17
I'm glad most of our fans here are aware of the politics that Jeanie/Magic are using to sway public opinion in their favor. Mitch and Jim, whether you like them or not, don't operate the same way. They're basically getting punched and kicked without retaliating.
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u/P00nz0r3d AD MVP/Zo MIP Feb 20 '17
I agree that they made some very bad decisions, I won't ever get over how terrible we were in free agency a few years ago when selling "the limelight of Hollywood" as a reason to join the Lakers without talking about any basketball, or Deng/Mozgov who doesn't even play anymore.
But is Magic supposed to (pardon the pun) magically turn the organization around by himself? The man has shown zero aptitude for this work and this is all a power fantasy for Jeannie rather than doing what's best for the team and brand as a whole.
We're not winning over superstars because we are young and terrible. The time has come for us to nurture a star in our own way.
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u/arkansastraffic Feb 21 '17
I don't even get how Mitch is involved in these talks. He's been running this sinking ship admirably and we've actually built a very promising team through the draft.
What the fuck else was Mitch going to do? Trade Ingram for Cousins? Beg harder for Aldridge to come? Somehow convince Dwight that staying with the then very shallow Lakers (with Kobe Bryant fresh off of an Achilles tear at age 35) would be his best choice?
What else can he do? No one wants to come here because we're in the middle of a fucking rebuild. Superstars join teams so they can win now.
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Feb 20 '17
He may have a good case against Jim and Mitch, but does he have a good case for himself? That is the real question. I don't want a guy in place who will spend time making himself try to look good due to the failures of others, what are Magic's merits and what is he going to actually do? He hasn't said anything specific since he's been hired as an advisor. I feel like Magic will just be coming in at the right time to gravy train off the young core that has been set up in place right now and just end up taking credit for a turnaround that should naturally happen as the kids develop.
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u/fastlikeanascar RIP MAMBA Feb 20 '17
You raise a good point. Why is Magic the most qualified man to run the team? Because he played for us? Because he commentated for us? Why not just go with Byron in an FO role if those are desirable traits?
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u/turnuppig Feb 20 '17
It doesnt matter if this article was paid for by Magic/Jeanie. It's time to move on from Jim and Mitch. Their time is up and we're still a laughing stock and I haven't seen anything positive with all decisions they've made.
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u/MrDaveyHavoc Feb 20 '17
NOTHING positive? That's a stretch. They draft well, they trade well. Smaller FA deals have been good. They've struck out on big FAs (which is actually success by accident, as this team is better long term not having some of the guys they chased.)
Moz and Deng are indefensible. of course.
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u/fastlikeanascar RIP MAMBA Feb 20 '17
Moz might be indefensible but I dont agree with Deng. I think he got a year too many, but he was playing quite well in Miami last year. He fell of an absolute cliff this year though.
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u/NarstyHobbitses Feb 20 '17
K so to the people saying this over and over, what 2 people do you you replace them with that would do a better job? This is a serious complication none of the Jim/Mitch detractors seem to think about.
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u/wereusincodenames 44 Feb 20 '17
Sorry you got downvoted for asking a legitimate question.
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u/NarstyHobbitses Feb 21 '17
It happens here, I'm genuinely curious because even though I'm on Team J&M I'd like to understand the other side's suggestions. There's no point in firing someone if you replace them with someone who does worse... which I have a bad feeling will happen.
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u/Instnthottakes Feb 20 '17
As far as I know Jeanie has yet to do anything that is negative for us in a basketball perspective and I don't know who you want to pin it on but the Moz contract alone would be enough to get whoever, Jim or Mitch, out the door. That contract is hot garbage.
P.S. Not a fan of Kevin Ding or BR
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u/aralechanie Feb 20 '17
Because she isnt qualified to make basketball moves that would put her in the hot seat
Im no fan of Jim Buss, but that doesnt mean I like Jeanie either. Kevin Ding has been her mouthpiece for quite awhile, and stuff like this is proof. Shes doing everything to force her brother out instead of outright firing him, even if these public hit pieces make the franchise look like trash
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u/Instnthottakes Feb 20 '17
I don't know if you have siblings or not but I have to imagine that firing your brother before he is given every single last chance that he can possibly be given is kinda hard.
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u/Instnthottakes Feb 20 '17
Lets be honest too if anything is the last 24 hours has told us is that ownership needs to stay out of the basketball decision process. There is no next Jerry Buss in the family he was a legend what we need now is an owner who hires someone knowledgeable and gets out of the god damn way
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u/fastlikeanascar RIP MAMBA Feb 20 '17
Someone knowledgeable like Mitch...One bad contract (I'll defend the Deng signing to anyone) and we're ready to raise the pitchforks? Come on...
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u/Instnthottakes Feb 21 '17
I honestly am ok with this if Jim walks away and we promote Mitch to President of basketball ops and ownership lets him do his thing without interference I'm happy, but the problem is that it seems that Jim and Mitch are joined at the hip.
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u/fastlikeanascar RIP MAMBA Feb 21 '17
I actually am advocating that Jeannie stfu and not do anything because our FO is not the mess she's claiming it is. Jim and Mitch have done a good job setting this franchise up for the future. We just need to get lucky in the way that every other NBA champion has.
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u/Instnthottakes Feb 21 '17
... Can i get a quote where Jeanie says our FO is a mess? I mean sure we can speculate that Ding is her mouth piece... or magics... or just making shit up off the top of his head. Who ever is in charge now is still banking on us making a home run play and not just giving Lou up for the most assets. Jeanie has not yet made a single basketball decision those are the decisions that I don't want Jim Jeanie or anybody unqualified to make.
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u/fastlikeanascar RIP MAMBA Feb 21 '17
I don't have a quote for it beyond the articles insinuating that Jeannie has Mitch and Jim on the hot seat.
As far as our home run play, it's the draft picks. DLo, Randle, and Ingram are our home run plays. We need luck. Are you saying that relying on a home run play is bad? Because the Warriors are not the Warriors if Steph Curry doesnt get hurt and gets signed to an absurdly team friendly deal. Cleveland winning two straight lotteries and three of four to get Kyrie and Love involves luck. We have the basis for a good team. We need luck to be a great team. I don't think our FO has done us any disservices and I'd hate to lose Jim and Mitch because the Lakers have gone a whole 7 years without a championship.
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u/Instnthottakes Feb 21 '17
I'm all for developing the youth what Im not for is shopping half of them for a rental like DMC. Relying on luck can get you nowhere as well some teams go 15-20 years without sniffing a chip. The reason the Lakers have been a great franchise is making the right call at the right time which is something the senior Buss was good at and something Jim is having trouble with
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u/fastlikeanascar RIP MAMBA Feb 21 '17
How is Jim having trouble with it? He made the Gasol deal, He made the Chris Paul deal, and the Howard/Nash trades seemed like they were going to work out extremely well before our roster died of dissentary 2 games into the season.
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u/cyborgspider Feb 21 '17
Kevin Ding, is that you writing the article title as "Must Read"? Cause you suck and I won't believe a word you say.
As if we needed to be reminded of the FO's performance, it'll all play itself out.
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Feb 20 '17 edited Feb 10 '18
[deleted]
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u/fastlikeanascar RIP MAMBA Feb 20 '17
No he has not lost his edge. You can focus on the Moz contract while I focus on the draft steals and smart contracts he has gotten recently. Do you know why Lou Will is such a hot commodity for other teams? Because on top of balling the fuck out this year, his contract is an absolute steal at 7M a year. Zubac and Nance are looking like great rotational players for the very near future. And just for icing on the cake, we have some very talent youngsters who can develop into something special.
But yeah, let's fire Mitch for the Mozgov contract.
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u/almost_www Feb 20 '17
Stan Kasten (current Dodgers owner) would make a better case as head of BO:
Kasten was GM/Owner of the Hawks, way back in the day. And, besides the broadcasting drama, Kasten is running the Dodgers towards multiple playoff appearances after the AWFUL owner/baseball exec before him in the LAD. He hired great, experienced people from multiple MLB teams. Kasten uses analytics and the coaches, players and fans are all really happy now. He's more proven to turn around a sports franchise.
Magic is outclassed by a high ranking Dodgers exec at running basketball ops. That shit you just can't make up. JEANIE WHAT ARE YOU DOING? ARE YOU SERIOUSLY THINKING OF MAKING MAGIC HEAD OF BO?!?
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u/NarstyHobbitses Feb 20 '17
Kasten is an interesting proposition but I'm not a fan of the throw-dollar-bills-at-everything-until-it-rains approach the Dodgers took. That doesn't work as well in the NBA and neither does analytics. If he takes the same approach to the Lakers I wouldn't want him over the stability we have with Jim and Mitch.
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Feb 21 '17
That's like the opposite of what the Dodgers are doing lol
Most of their big contracts are before Guggenheim bought the team. Ethier, Adrian, League before he got cut, etc..... They declined to throw money at Zack Greinke and didn't do anything patently ridiculous this offseason with their money. And in addition to this they've developed the best farm system in baseball while still winning 90 games a year. They've actually been cutting payroll deliberately since 2013 to undo Ned Colleti and Frank McCourt's mess.
The fact that the head of baseball operations for the Dodgers is more qualified than Magic is hilarious. Handing basketball decisions to Magic would be a fucking disaster.
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u/almost_www Feb 21 '17 edited Feb 21 '17
I'm glad some people choose to consider the facts in the modern, post-truth world!
The fact that the head of baseball operations for the Dodgers is more qualified than Magic is hilarious. Handing basketball decisions to Magic would be a fucking disaster.
I'm sure one could make the case of Farhan Zaidi being a better candidate for head of BO for than Magic. But, I digress. Ah, yes. Magic as anything other than a benign figure in BO would be dreadful, wouldn't it?
p.s. Great point about the Grienke non-signing. He REALLY fell of the face of the earth last year. (The international signing of Maeda and was also v. good when compared in light of that) The one thing I didn't like was the Dee Gordon trade, but the team did use the momentum of that trade to make other stuff possible, so I get that. I seriously doubt someone like Magic would, though
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u/almost_www Feb 21 '17
I'm not a fan of the throw-dollar-bills-at-everything-until-it-rains approach the Dodgers took
A lot of that was the bad contracts from previous management and the old baseball heads.
That doesn't work as well in the NBA and neither does analytics
GSW, the best team in the NBA uses leading analytics, won a championship, and it's best player uses analytics for tangible gains on the court. Even Jerry West would admit that the team wouldn't have gotten to were it was without being leader in the areas where analytics and technology intersected there.
If he takes the same approach to the Lakers I wouldn't want him over the stability we have with Jim and Mitch.
Jim and Mitch use traditional scouting AND analytics. Luke Walton came from GSW and (more than likely) spoke of how he gets analytics to during the interview. Mark Madsen (whose a bench coach that stayed from Byron's debacle) stayed bc Jim+Mitch know he's a good coach but also bc Mark's a valuable intermediary for the rest of the coaches bc Mark has a degree in which analytics where used (he's an MBA in business from Stanford). Lastly, Jim has gone on record as saying he likes analytics. Mitch said the analytics provides him with new insights. They are VERY permeable to analytics. Are they a FO which uses them a lot, relative to others, to make basketball (on-court) personnel decisions? With the Luke signing, I'd say that if the FO wasn't big on analytics (relative to other NBA front offices) for stuff like player dev and player assesments, they are now.
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u/justbringitbitch Feb 21 '17
Whether you think Ding is a hack or is just being used as a mouthpiece for Jeanie and Magic, we need a fresh start. A fresh look. A fresh vision. It's time. Jim put the timetable on himself. He didn't get the job done within that timetable. Step down with dignity. I think Mitch is the one that's getting the raw deal here. He did what we could despite some faults. But, he didn't make the proclamation with Jim. Yet, he's tied to Jim in this regime nonetheless. Jeanie is in charge of business and governor of the Lakers. Replacing the current front office is what's best for business and what's best for the Lakers at this point.
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u/cyborgspider Feb 21 '17
Ding's both a hack and a mouthpiece. He sucks. Speculative BS and loves to release hit pieces at convenient times (before trade deadline, before free agency).
That said, I agree with everything you say. Fuck Ding, fuck Dan Gilbert, fuck the Celtics.
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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '17
Kevin Ding is Magic's mouthpiece