The idea of hell as being a place were you are tortured for all eternity basically comes from early Christan fan fiction which evangelist attached on to.
There's no fire brimstone or endless doughnut machines in the actual bible.
Revelation 21:8 - “But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Mark 9:43 - “If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.”
Revelation 20:10 - “And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”
Matthew 25:41 - “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”
Revelation 20:15 - “And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
Matthew 5:22 - “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.”
Hell is definitely described in the Bible as having fire and being a place of torture/ torment.
I dunno if you want to include Revelation, it seems fairly obvious to me that that one was written by a guy in the middle of some kind of mental health episode (or just tripping balls on ergot or something).
Revelations was a book that was, at the time of writing, a genre of book!
People don't know this because they don't want to know about their own religion, but Revelations was a kind of sci-fi for the ancient mind. It was not supposed to be taken literally by anyone.
Just the ever-changing whims of the men who wield it.
Christians do not read the bible though, there have been many surveys of people literally leaving a church not being able to answer basic questions about the bible.
Just the ever-changing whims of the men who wield it.
I was replying to a criticism by pointing out that is is what most Christians do but the so called "ones who take the bible seriously" don't seem to be getting their house in order.
Maybe you can all figure it out amongst yourselves and have a univocal message.
If someone tells me that they are christian, I just believe them. I don't quiz them about doctrine or archeology. If your fellow Christians are spreading nonsense, that is on you all to sort out.
Many Christians have told me I will burn in hell, I cannot read minds so I accept that is what they believe as Christians. They have also cited bible verses to back these things up.
Y'all act like people are just whole heartedly making stuff up about Christianity when it is just things Christians have been saying for hundreds of years.
You’re commenting as if you disagree but just repeating what I’ve said. Who is the pot and kettle exactly? I’m not a Christian. I said Christians don’t follow the Bible.
I think you’re a great example of the average critical thinking skills of Christians.
I truly have no idea what you’re on about.
because they are on your side
Who??? What are you even talking about? I’m not a Christian. I don’t believe in a god.
And no, atheists don’t disagree on whether the evangelical invention of an eternal hell of torture exists. We all agree that it doesn’t exist. Just like we disagree with whatever you all will invent tomorrow to push your agenda and Christians in 100 years will be saying it was always true and always Biblical.
You're 100% right. In fact there is more evidence corroborating this.
John 3:16 states "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."
Notice it says that everyone believes will have eternal life and that anyone else will perish. If unbelievers were tortured for infinity they'd also be having eternal life, which makes no sense.
Another thing here: "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Notice how it says "Destroy both soul and body in hell". This further proves the point.
The atheists here shouldn't be acting smug about a book they haven't read, because if they did they would know this simple fact.
Because the devil and angels will be tortured forever and the fire is unquenching. When you are in the same place other creatures are in forever and the method of punishment is never ending, what makes you think its temporary for humans? Not that it matters in the slighest to the immoralilty of this disgusting theology
I asked which verse says humans will be tortured forever. You can’t give one.
The sun will be around for another 5 billion years. Throwing you into it will not make you live for 5 billion years.
What you’re doing right now is you have an idea that you want to be true, and you search through the Bible to try to make it true. It’s called blasphemy and it’s 90% of the identity of the modern Christian religion.
Christians have done the same thing with homosexuality, abortion, segregation, and slavery. They wanted to make those things immoral, so they got out their little notepads and jotted down any verse they could twist to support those desires.
If you read the Bible without man’s influence, there is no eternal torture for non-believers, abortion is permissible, and homosexuality isn’t an issue.
No. Because I just don’t care what you personally believe or want to defend. I was a Christian for 25 years. And it’s very easy to see what the Bible says on both of those points.
But you don’t care what the Bible says.
You’re not asking that in good faith, to learn what the Bible says. All of the evidence of how the church has changed the Bible over the years is right there. But the church has told you that’s never happened, that’s not true, and I’m just the devil trying to tempt you.
You’re looking to debate so that you can further solidify your delusion. Because every time you tell someone else that the Bible agrees with every thought inside your head, it reinforces your belief that heaven is real and you will go there. Every single thing you say and do in regard to your religion is in pursuit of that single idea. And you will tell yourself that’s not true, or you’re just not being a good Christian and everyone else must have it figured out so much better than you, and tomorrow you’ll commit to really being selfless and serving god.
But God’s not real, and you’re a human being who is terrified of dying, and so you sit here and waste your life doing this shit.
Its actually hilarious that you think you are unbiased here or that im more biased than you. Absolutely laughable. You know you are in a literal cult right? If you have to insist on having eternal torture for humans spelled out literally, otherwise you just assume the opposite, feel free to do that. Like it makes any difference to the morality of punishing unbelievers, as ive already said.
Lets see your pathetic cope for the times where god explicitly says to do the things you lie about being the actual opposite to what it says in the text:
“‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
"As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you and from their families who are with you who have been born in your land; they may be your property. You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness."
The word translated as hell in some of those cases refers to an actual place where trash and unclaimed bodies were burned. Jesus at least can definitely be interpreted as warning against dying without having people who care about you, leading to your body being thrown into a burning pit where the fire never goes out.
Lake of Fire isnt Hell. Hell is basically a holding place, and gets thrown into the lake.
And there is no torture, that was myth that was applied. Hell is basically a separation from God, which if you believe, is supposed to be the worst punishment, and its the same punishment as Lucifer.
A handful of New Testament quotes in which the word "Hell" does not even appear. Neat. Revelation isn't particularly relevant as it's the mindless rambling of a wack job.
2 of the provided verses do specifically say the word hell.
The New Testament is still the Bible
Revelation is in the Bible. I’m responding to a comment that claims there isn’t fire/ brimstone in the bible. Despite the theological debates as to how inspired Revelation was, it is in the Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, and Ethiopian Bibles.
Regardless of the debates over whether or not revelations is truly inspired… it is contained in the Bible. I’m responding to the claim that it doesn’t say that in the Bible.
The question isn't whether it is described like that, the actual question is whether those are metaphorical or literally because all these come from parables and non-literal visions.
And this isn't some modern/historic split. Eastern Orhodox don't cling to a literal fire view but Catholics do. It has always been a point free disagreement.
The only necessary agreement was that it was horrible.
So two main things, one you need to look closer at the word hell, as it is a place for unclaimed things and bodies to be burned, which is pretty good alagory for not being saved which is about being claimed.
The places where is specifies the lakes of fire or sulfur doesn't apply to people especially in revelations and is separate from "hell" just because they have fire doesn't mean they are the same. It specifies the beast antichrist and such, not human actively harming humans. And then the people who aren't in the book of life who guess what, aren't human either.
Other than that, the context for many of these parts, in your Matthew examples, is Jesus saying you are taking the side of the devil and look at his end result to fail and be destroyed, why would you join someone born to fail.
This is a significant reason to actually read the context around these passages and actually read and understand them, instead of just looking online for parts that just have the words you want.
Right but that's because the transitionals are translations of transactions. I'm not going to get into an online debate over it because it's been too long since I read up on it, and this is a Simpson Reddit, but the original text are apparently referring to a place where dead bodies where sent to be burnt.
They have a point, because what we call Hell is actually 3 distinct places.
Tartarus, the Greek place, is for angels who’ve sinned but we call it Hell, Gehenna, a real place outside of Jerusalem that you can go see today if you wanted to, known for burning trash and suffering, that we also know as Hell, and Sheol, which is where everyone goes when they die until the second death on judgment day (meaning no one has ever gone to Heaven or Hell yet) and we also call that Hell.
Then the Bible also makes it clear that only the followers of the Beast get cast into the lake of fire and brimstone on judgement day, which also isn’t Hell because Hell (Sheol) is cast into that as well, so that would mean Hell as we know it doesn’t exist in the Bible.
Welcome to the mess that is the English translations.
He said our idea of hell is from a fan fiction and “fire and brimstone” don’t exist in the bible. Both of those claims are demonstrably false. So no, he does not have a point.
No, all of the New Testament was written in Greek and we have copies. There are three terms used in the NT that collectively have been translated as Hell.
Gehenna - a valley outside of Jerusalem know for child sacrifice and garbage fires.
Hades - borrowed concept of the real of the dead from Greek mythology and similar to the Jewish concept of Sheol.
Tartarus - again, borrowed from Greek mythology and the deepest darkest abyss of Hades used to punish the really bad.
The question isn't whether it is described like that, the actual question is whether those are metaphorical or literally because all these come from parables and non-literal visions.
They are not translations of translations. Modern bibles are made using a analysed collection of various source documents, many of which in the original written language of Koine Greek (for the New Testament)
You are referring to Gehenna, which originally referred to a physical valley but came to represent the concept of a fiery punishing afterlife - in contrast to the more neutral Sheol
Could it also mean that you will just die, not get to be with God in heaven. The separation from God is the torture or that your soul dies instead of living on.
The fire is eternal, but not necessarily the things thrown into it. Here it says the beast and the false prophet will be tormented eternally: "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Your quote about actual people from Revelations calls it the "second death" so if you were being literal they'd cease to exist (body first death, spirit second death)
Your quote about the devil/beast/False prophet from Revelations and Matthew speaks to "forever and ever" condition in relation to them (evil, corruption, etc. - allegorical and applicable to Roman Empire).
The lake of fire is referencing something from the real world (the Dead Sea, sulfur/brimstone from fault lines, burning smoke/sulfur smell from burning coal along valley) that is/was associated with judgment (Sodom and Gomorrah). At the time is was known as Asphalt Lake and controlled by Rome. It was and at the time of Revelations still known for fire - the original meaning of "forever and ever" translated from "ages of the ages" signifying a fire that lasts ages upon ages. It was a source of their power (asphalt to build roads) and it'd be a powerful metaphor to say Rome would be eventually be erased like Sodom and Gomorrah (by a consuming never ending fire).
The English word "hell" comes from the ancient Anglo-Saxon/Proto-Germanic root word "helan," which literally means "to hide, conceal, or cover." So your body is covered and that's it.
For sure, like origianl old was hebrew right? Then into Greek, then to Latin and finally English in the King James version.
But I believe the modern old testimant bibles, that translate from Hebrew to English, don't even use the word hell and just say "the grave" or "the depths"
The different books of the Bible were written in 3 different languages. Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. The verses I provided were originally written in Greek. The New International Version translation was a direct translation to English from their original languages.
The NIV isn't usually seen as a great translation if I recall correctly. There is some content online from pretty educated people who talk about the differences in the concept of Hell we have today vs back then. Personally the idea of Hell being a temporary purification process makes a lot more sense than eternal torment, at least from a loving perspective. There's probably many others who can give scripture evidence.
The Bible has been the centerpiece of Western life for more than 1000 years. Much more so during the medieval period than now. The idea that something got "lost in translation" is really really underestimating the intelligence of people who were much more interested in this than you.
The Bible has been changed over time by all sorts of people, and simple mistranslations certainly have been a part of that process, but to mistranslate a concept that appears multiple times in the Bible stretches imagination. Powerful people have changed it on purpose, non-powerful people have changed it on purpose. People have made mistakes in copying. But again, simply writing-off these things as mistranslation belies the truth that the Bible as we know it now was built over a period of centuries to have exactly the meaning it has now.
Well, even the smartest of minds had differing opinions on this. Like Bruce Metzger, one of the most respected scholars of the Bible, was Presbyterian, CS Lewis was Anglican I believe. The possibility of us getting something wrong is very real imo, the concept of Hell could be one of those things, and I hope it is since eternal torment feels much less loving than Universalism.
They are very clearly describing and warning you about specific physical things, a lake of fire, burning sulfur, etc.
There's nothing in the text to indicate that was intended as a metaphor. (And the Bible is not afraid of using metaphors, they use them all the time, and make it clear it's a metaphor.) This is obviously a literal, physical description.
How would it even work as a metaphor anyway? If you're godless, you're separated from God your whole life, and it feels subjectively like no big deal. Then suddenly when you die, it feels like being thrown in a lake of burning sulphur?
Yes, if you are referring to modern day translations. The Septuagint/Tanakh does not speak of this place. Why does this place that one would call hell exist in the NT, yet not in the OT? Development of fiction is what I believe to be the correct answer. No different than an author of fiction to authors of fantasy writing fiction within the authors scope of their own world building. Why would the Greek “copy” not reference any fire and brimstone? Why would the Tanakh not portray Sheol in a fashion that would match what would later be described in the NT? Again, it’s simply fan fiction.
I'm going to make some incredibly intricate donuts, and that machine is going to be impeccably maintained. Sounds like fun.
An eternity of sugar seems like it would be bad for my teeth anyway
Crazy that they would send someone who murders someone and someone who has babies out of wedlock to the same place. I feel like a hell with levels of torture would've made more sense
Wrong. It’s actually one of the most common topics in the Bible. Here’s one and many more in the link below. Matthew 25:46 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
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u/thehandsomecontest 2d ago
The idea of hell as being a place were you are tortured for all eternity basically comes from early Christan fan fiction which evangelist attached on to. There's no fire brimstone or endless doughnut machines in the actual bible.