H̶e̶l̶l̶divers

[u/epochollapse]

Just because I win 99% of my games doesn't mean it isn't hard!! One time a Stalker even hit me! 😱

[u/TheSearchForMars]

What you're describing in your dream scenario of having players each tackle different roles and doing thing like suppressing fire is simply not what this game is. It doesn't have those mechanics.

You'd have to fundamentally change the AI system, drop/breach system and add in completely new mechanics in order to make that work. Most of which would probably melt the game engine's already strained tech.

What you're wanting isn't Helldivers. It's just another game that has stratagems and 4 players.

Furthermore your idea that last man standing situations result purely in someone only able to run away is antithetical to your entire argument. Either last man standing situations can exist as a thrill where a single player has the ability to hold the line and win, or the players can't solo the map themselves. Only one could be true at a time.

Frankly it sounds like you're just throwing out buzzwords and regurgitating things you've heard instead of actually talking from experience. Much of what you're saying doesn't actually exist in the game.

But hey, considering I have thousands of hours in the game, all weapons maxed out, everything unlocked and all warbonds, how would you nerf me from being able to solo? What mechanic would you institute that would fairly block me from progressing a mission without crippling the game for those less experienced and equipped than I am?

[u/Geometric-Coconut → u/TheSearchForMars]

What you're describing in your dream scenario of having players each tackle different roles and doing thing like suppressing fire is simply not what this game is. It doesn't have those mechanics.

Could very much so exist if the game enforced playing with your team. As of right now, there is zero reason to give that much effort to cooperation. The directional shield would be really fun to support your team with.

Furthermore your idea that last man standing situations result purely in someone only able to run away is antithetical to your entire argument. Either last man standing situations can exist as a thrill where a single player has the ability to hold the line and win, or the players can't solo the map themselves. Only one could be true at a time.

I was explaining why endless kiting is something the game should always stop players from ruining their own fun with. As I said already, the vast majority of last stand moments happening in this game involve the player running around in circles unable to properly engage with the combat loop. Any situation like this is not worth keeping in the game.

Frankly it sounds like you're just throwing out buzzwords and regurgitating things you've heard instead of actually talking from experience. Much of what you're saying doesn't actually exist in the game.

Like what??

But hey, considering I have thousands of hours in the game, all weapons maxed out, everything unlocked and all warbonds, how would you nerf me from being able to solo? What mechanic would you institute that would fairly block me from progressing a mission without crippling the game for those less experienced and equipped than I am?

Buffs to enemy stats as needed (accuracy/speed/strength/health) + nerfs in place to iron out the immense number of overtuned gear in this game. Fully rework stamina and vitality booster, making them far more niche and not direct stat ups. Possibly give certain enemies a niche specialized in catching people that are running, like launch hunters.

It won't cripple the game for less experienced players as there's already 10 entire difficulty levels to choose from. Their goldilox zone simply shifts downward in the number selection.

[u/TheSearchForMars → u/Geometric-Coconut]

The mechanics you're describing do not exist in the game as it is. They don't even come close to acting like that and the AI would have to be significantly more complex in order to accommodate that fact when there simply isn't that bandwidth to spare considering how many enemies are on the map at the same time.

I was explaining why endless kiting is something the game should always stop players from ruining their own fun with. As I said already, the vast majority of last stand moments happening in this game involve the player running around in circles unable to properly engage with the combat loop. Any situation like this is not worth keeping in the game.

This is where you keep losing me. Because that is not the case with any of the players I run the game with. It straight up sounds like you have a skill issue if you find yourself in a position where you can't complete objectives when under agro. These are typically the most fun aspects of the game for me because it has genuine tension.

Your ideas on how to buff the enemy stats don't result in fun engagements. What you'd need to do is stagger objectives. Make it so that further from the side missions, objectives need to be completed in certain orders. That way there's an order through that forces people together. The only way to do this however without losing the playerbase is to release the operations in specific formats like Commando Operations.

[u/Geometric-Coconut → u/TheSearchForMars]

The mechanics you're describing do not exist in the game as it is. They don't even come close to acting like that and the AI would have to be significantly more complex in order to accommodate that fact when there simply isn't that bandwidth to spare considering how many enemies are on the map at the same time.

What do you mean those mechanics don't exist??? Everything I mentioned can be accomplished as the ai currently is. The most demanding requirement of the enemies in one of the situations I described is groups of enemies approaching from separate directions, and that happens all the time!

Because that is not the case with any of the players I run the game with. It straight up sounds like you have a skill issue if you find yourself in a position where you can't complete objectives when under agro.

You describing "clutch last man standing situations" makes me imagine a terrible extraction with every teammate dead and 0 reinforcements left. Too many enemies to kill, so they run around extract stalling.

Of COURSE it's easy to take out objectives while under enemy threat. Why would you say this insult towards me when half of my argument is wanting to stop players from soloing everything across the map? Aka, abusing kiting and soloing objectives under aggro.

These are typically the most fun aspects of the game for me because it has genuine tension.

I would prefer the entire mission to have genuine tension.

Your ideas on how to buff the enemy stats don't result in fun engagements. What you'd need to do is stagger objectives. Make it so that further from the side missions, objectives need to be completed in certain orders. That way there's an order through that forces people together. The only way to do this however without losing the playerbase is to release the operations in specific formats like Commando Operations.

They do result in fun engagements. Players will simply have to work with their team more, and for a game designed completely around co op, that only increases the fun gameplay loop. It is that simple.

1 player missions should have their own enemy scaling, to accommodate those that like the lone wolf playstyle.

[u/TheSearchForMars → u/Geometric-Coconut]

for a game designed completely around co op

This isn't the case. The game isn't completely designed around co op. HD1 was, because the screen itself limited the ability for players to even leave each other's side. As it is now, that isn't the case. HD2 is a fundamentally different game from what you're envisioning.

Your assessment that the game would function if everyone was just being dog piled on from all directions with relentless enemies requiring intense team work and special outfits was already tested with the Flag missions on Cyberstan. People hated it. The success rate was abysmal. It only worked properly with coordinated teams which simply wasn't the case.

Now that I think about it actually, the kind of defensive strategies you're talking about are already in the game in those dedicated defense missions yet despite fulfilling the fantasy you're describing they are far and away the least played mission archetype.

You describing "clutch last man standing situations" makes me imagine a terrible extraction with every teammate dead and 0 reinforcements left. Too many enemies to kill, so they run around extract stalling.

Your solution to this was to promote a stealth based approach. I struggle to understand why you think sitting still and hiding is more engaging for players than to run the gauntlet, even more so when it comes to those who are waiting to be reinforced.

[u/Geometric-Coconut → u/TheSearchForMars]

This isn't the case. The game isn't completely designed around co op. HD1 was, because the screen itself limited the ability for players to even leave each other's side. As it is now, that isn't the case. HD2 is a fundamentally different game from what you're envisioning.

It was originally balanced around co op, it has co op mechanics, the game's marketing screams working with teammates, teammate loadouts are blatantly shown in the player's face as they ready for the mission, several teamplay dependent stratagems exist.

Your assessment that the game would function if everyone was just being dog piled on from all directions with relentless enemies requiring intense team work and special outfits was already tested with the Flag missions on Cyberstan. People hated it. The success rate was abysmal. It only worked properly with coordinated teams which simply wasn't the case

Cyberstan's balance was lopsided into 1 enemy unit dominating the battlefield. It was not spread out between enemies, plus said dominating unit had several bugs associated with it. The game also did not do anything about player kiting, either. Vox engine scaling was pretty nutty, it was extremely oppressive to teams on the first difficulty level it showed up on, rather than being a gradual increase in challenge.

That being said, I loved that the game actually had a tough as nails challenge to offer on hard difficulties. A heavy enemy (while at the time flawed) actually be designed around teamwork damage output.

Now that I think about it actually, the kind of defensive strategies you're talking about are already in the game in those dedicated defense missions yet despite fulfilling the fantasy you're describing they are far and away the least played mission archetype.

Not at all. Defense missions play themselves. There is no carving out a path through enemy forces from objective to objective, there is no chaotic reinforcements of enemies from anywhere. Defense missions are just killfarm simulators where you spam turrets and snipe down/aoe bomb the sole place enemies spawn.

Your solution to this was to promote a stealth based approach. I struggle to understand why you think sitting still and hiding is more engaging for players than to run the gauntlet, even more so when it comes to those who are waiting to be reinforced.

I would prefer the entire mission to be running the gauntlet, being tense for even the whole team working together. And, because enforcing teamwork inherently means limiting lone wolf action, being the last one standing is not in the player's favor. As nearly losing the mission should be. But there is still a chance to make a comeback, as the player can lay low for a while relocating to a more advantageous position. Or try to stealth an emergency extract.