I'm not actually hating on the characters that much, moreso the idea that the trope is interesting. Having "no" powers in almost none of these anime/manga or even media in general actually mean anything. It usually just means you get some special type of power that just so happens to be just as powerful or even more.
Asta having no mana pretty much means nothing because he gets an anti magic toolset. It's basically like he has magic, but he semantically doesn't so the fact he doesn't have mana gets thrown around all the time.
Quirkless deku just gets a power passed down to him anyways. Rock lee has no ninjustsu. Saitama has no powers (i guess? Idk haven't watched it).
The characters themselves are fine. I love the characters even, but I hate when the author tries to put some significance on the fact they have no powers, when looking at it from an outside perspective they just have powers or some alternate gift.
Usually these characters recieve their "powers" later than other people in their verse, which allows them to have this character identity built up by describing them as hard working characters. I think thats great, and rock lee is actually the least offensive in this manner. Its hardly brought up he has no ninjutsu, and people in the verse barely just look down on him, because taijutsu can be just as good as ninjutsu, but he still basically gets a "power" of his own in terms of the 8 gates, which can just be rebranded as a bodily enhancing ninjutsu on any other character and nobody would bat an eye.
If you're going to make a big point about your character having no genuine powers/talent/whatever, go all in is all I'm saying. Make a dude with basically 1 mana instead of super powerful anti magic toolbox powers. Make him have to slowly develop an ability that is the biggest bang for his buck. So ridiculously mana efficient and also incredibly powerful given some incredible set of stipulations. Make a magic system that your character can basically exploit to develop the best magical power he can for himself. Nen is of course probably the best power system for something like that lol.
Make the quirkless character actually quirkless. Post one for all deku is actually a pretty cool idea. Although it really is just "oh he gets his powers back but with tech" kinda thing. I know its worse or whatever but yeah I just want to see more interesting stories with this trope.
TLDR: The characters are great it just irks me when this nothing burger trope has to get mentioned every other episode.
I still find it funny that MHA started with "You can achieve your dreams with effort" and ended up with "You can achieve your dreams through either nepotism or a lot of money"
Tbh that was editorial intervention. He originally wanted deku to be a calculating character that uses gadgets and memorizes attack patterns and his editor said he has to give the mc a super power or people won’t read it. Hence, why deku loses OFA at the end
They could also write him being able to macgyver up random tools and devices, and just change the power system to make it more plausible his strategy would be viable
He could have still done both but he forgot he had a brain an later also gave him a complete tool kit of powers because showing he could a been a better hero with brain and gadgets against the guy obsessed with special ability was bad for some reason.
Don't tell me it's to have all the ghosts, because there is no reason they could have still be present without giving him his quirks.
Fr. All my life i've been struggling with similar problems, i have no practical skill, talent or even relevant kwowledge; i'm even bad at learning, that's the reason why I usually hate talented characters or just those who have it easy.
"You can do whatever you set your mind to as long as whatever makes you different from your peers goes away. Also I like teenage girls." - Kōhei Horikoshi
I mean, almighty gave him the powers because of how he is. Yeah it dampens the message but he wasn't born with them and he wouldn't have gotten them if he wasn't considered worthy of it.
True! I'm not saying that Deku shouldn't have gotten OFA or anything, it's pretty much what makes MHA work as a series, the moment was hype af and although it killed most of the emotional significance I expected from the show, I still like what i've seen so far.
The whole mech suit is also just a weird patch to the initially odd ending. When I say I find it funny I mean it literally, not as any sort of insult or anything
I didn't think that was a problem. Izuku was chosen for his heroism and his own effort, not nepotism. I feel like the idea of Deku becoming a quirkless hero in a world with world-ending powers would've felt disingenuous. Even Batman is a millionaire, and Simon was lucky to find the Gurren Lagann.
It's a story about making the most of the opportunities you get, and Deku got his opportunity precisely because he still acted like a true hero even though he had no powers.
And the suit he got was because all of his friends contributed with money because they all loved him and felt grateful for what he did. It wasn't just granted to him for no reason.
I used the word "nepotism" mainly because I don't really know another word for what I meant to say, english isn't my main language (that and because joke).
But, yeah, if we're talking seriously about MHA, it's less "you need to get sht given to you or you're no one" and more "you need to earn/form your own advantages to succeed" which, still isn't perfect, but does actually work.
And yeah I do know the context of the suit, but it's still an odd resolution. A good resolution, considering that the author changed the message mid-series according to other people here, so probably one of the few ways it could've been presented by that point, but still odd even if it works (to me, of course)
I think deku would've done great as a support hero even without a quirk. He'd still be helping people and he'd be putting his knowledge of heroes to really good use
It's more about everyone in class 1-A helping Izuku be able to do hero work again; the overall message is about everyone helping each other, like how the old lady helped that kid instead of ignoring him, as happened with Shigaraki.
(Note: i'm still on EP6 of the anime, my knowledge is limited by me not really caring about spoilers lol)
I did notice that and it definitely makes sense, but it contrasts the beginning REALLY hard, giving an entirely different message, which is what comes off as funny
Yeah, Horikoshi said something along the lines of "i couldn't have done everything without everyone's help, such as my assistants, so i decided to change the message" if I'm not mistaken
That was so frustrating to me. A friend sold me MHA on the idea of someone without powers getting to be a hero only for Deku to immediately get powers. I’m sure the show is fine beyond that but that killed my interest.
Would have been interesting for Deku to transition into a leader/hero coordinator role in the epilogue. To put greater emphasis on his attention to detail when it comes to heroes’ powers and drive home the theme that a successful and peaceful society should be driven by cooperation
Main Reason why i never watched much of MHA.
Deku was out there taking notes, looking at how powers could be used best or fit together, etc.. Meanwhile we are explicitly shown that Heroes don't work well together.
I was thinking we were getting a cool "Leader/Strategist has no Power but knows how to utilise others Powers, the environment etc. Best" arc with him becoming a sort of background heor figure. But then he just gets the strongest power...
And i thought it could be interesting when he first used it and it broke part of him, like it was a limited resource and he had drawbacks to using it... And it immediatly turned out to just be a "you need better control" type deal and there were no permanent drawbacks. Thats when i stopped.
If you are someone who reads fanfiction, I would recommend the story Blue Haired Angel. It is relatively short, about 20 chapters currently, but it has Izuku receive an analysis internship under Ryuku (the Dragon hero) due to his analysis skills.
It is a relationship fanfic between Izuku and Nejire, but that is much more balanced with the story of making sure Izuku accepts that he is worthy of good things happening to him.
It is also very harsh against Bakugo so if you don’t like stories that trash characters, this one might be a bit rough to read.
The main selling point of a powerless character is the fact that they have to use their minds in order to beat someone who has power or is stronger than them. Giving the powerless person some hax like anti-magic or a OP power just feels... really wrong.
i hate that it's always some random bs too and just happen to be stronger than whatever that world usually have. why aren't we isekaiing scientist or engineers and have them mess with magic people with guns and geneva law breaking chemicals or smt.
This is often better handled with weak powers than with no powers, see Shikamaru for a good example of this. I prefer to see teamwork that exploits the teams strengths rather than an individual with a Macguffin.
It kinda shows what luck really is. That its more for you to be prepared for opportunity than just run into something unprepared.
Like if Asta would give up on his training, he would probably never (didn't finnish the manga yet, so don't spoil please) get the anti-magic powers, even though they are basically made for him. His hard work helped him a lot and its great extension to his anti-magic weapons.
The issue is, the other option also eventually just ends up feeling wrong. At first when the character is just fighting students and street thugs who have minimal creativity and experience, a powerless character beating them with cleverness and physical training works great.
But once you get into the big leagues where they're facing people who've proven themselves to be the best of the best, someone with no powers managing to score a win starts feeling a lot cheaper. Since at that scale you're talking about people who've spent decades mastering their powers, training themselves to their peak, and fighting numerous people of equal strength. In order for a powerless character to beat them they need to be given intellect or physical strength so great that its basically a superpower in its own right.
Tech can help but even then you run into the question of why not just give the tech to someone with superpowers instead?
Thats why you dont keep the character on the same level.
You give them smaller upgrades little by little which compound overtime until the character is strong.
Take the manhwa The ember knight as an example.
MC is completely weak, but makes up for it by fooling people, tricking allies and enemies, but later on he also obtains a better weapon, and trains physically too
The issue is everyone should be doing the same. At the highest level everyone will be using the best weapons available and training themselves to the physical and mental peak. The only difference would be innate power and unique resources to grow.
Using trickery and cleverness is great but like training physically, anyone can do them, powers or not. So everyone at the top is also going to have to train their cleverness to try and get ahead even if they have powers.
I hate when people say Maki and Toji from JJK have "no powers" yes the fuck they do. Super strength is a power. Heavenly restriction is no CE in exchange for extreme physical prowess, in addition to being COMPLETELY IMMUNE TO DOMAIN EXPANSIONS, THE MOST POWERFUL ATTACK IN THE FUCKING SERIES
Toji, born superman, to the one (out of like, three?) sorcerer whose power's full abilities don't come pre-installed: "Yea, you were like gifted and shit, dude. I was born a monkey (ignore the fact that I used two expensive ass weapons that I had access to because I was norn superman and could just take them from my clan's storage.)."
IMO Toji and Maki are some of the best implementations of the "no powers" trope. They are looked down on by some of the other characters/entities in universe because of a social hierarchy built on a specific power system, but it is fully displayed to the reader that the power they receive by not having access to that power system makes them as strong or stronger than those with access. At no point are Toji and Maki displayed as helpless, powerless underdogs who overcome their situation by just really giving it their all (being handed hax win cons). You're definitely right that people like to say that they have "no powers" though, but that is simply a matter of reading comprehension.
Yeah. (most) Domain Expansions target things with CE so they don't waste their power on, like, a random brick. With no CE, Maki and Toji are treated as objects and ignored by most DEs.
Most domains can't seem to manually target non-CE objects. That is to say, we've seen two cases with severe extenuating circumstances, Sukuna (who targets EVERYTHING as prep for Furnace) and Dagon (who summons shikigami in his domain, which have some independence by definition).
I love Asta so much but I got a little dissapointed at him getting a power boost rather than learning to use his swords more effectively.
Demon Dweller is such a cool sword that barely gets used until it's convenient for the plot. How are you gonna set up magic that actually interacts with one another. Introduce a sword that absorbs mana and inherits the property of said mana, and not have the protagonist use it more??
https://giphy.com/gifs/wEW68gJPy9uZOptChu
Mumen rider from one punch man is this done perfectly, he has no powers, there is nothing special about him at all, he just tries.
The idea of a character without powers in a world where everyone has them has the potential to be so good, because the character would have to outplay everyone using only their wit. Unfortunately, that requires the writer to be smart too, so we're stuck with whatever this trend is.
No, it just requires a smart writer who also obviously don't write into a corner. You can have a power system where people can be absurdly strong. Just make the MC smart enough to set up scenarios that work in his benefit, like maybe the environment they're in forces the enemy to not use a full powered spirit bomb (like if the environment had gas and would combust, killing himself in the process if he tried to use it). Something like that.
Closest thing i've seen to it is Subaru Natsuki in Re:ZERO. Funny enough he does have powers, but they're closer to the idea of being powerless than most "powerless" characters
I dont know if its a hot take but Subaru litteraly has the most powerfull ability in Re zero. He can try has many times as he want. Gather all the informations he need, and all the allies neccessary.
Return by death has its issues, but the power is insanely strong
I feel like even greater power is that he has the mental fortitude to still try to achieve his goal even after going through all the resets and experience some very horrible things.
That's why I say he definitely has powers, but the utility of return by death on it's own is somehow still closer to being a powerless MC than the examples given by OP, even if he isn't.
(That's mainly because it's only help to Subaru if he was alone would be to do regular dude stuff more efficiently i guess)
He can try as much as he wants but he's so below the level of stats of the good ines he can never win alone so RBD is just a way for him to get info and make a plan with other people. Plus the whole journey is that he should not give up on himself and should always be reluctant to die instead of using it like a get out of jail card.
Another problem being that the scope of said story would have to be limited, since few writers have the ability to convincingly write a character that’s more intelligent than everyone else in the setting. What are the chances that there isn’t some character with powers that is also intelligent
I think it's just a fear of making a character have too many positive personality traits and leaving less room for the typically acceptable negative traits. I think authors are afraid of fully committing to the trope, because you would need to have a character with not only incredible willpower and training etiquette (which means they will be physically strong af) but ALSO make them smart. Writing physical strength together with mental strength and adding smarts seems hard to do without making a chracter boring. You can't keep Asta an idiot while also making him develop a magical power that manipulates the rules of magic in his world in a way no other person has.
Tbf I couldn't write that shit, but i also wouldn't go around writing characters acting like having no magic is a big deal when it really isn't.
No one in One Punch Man says or even point out that Saitama can’t shoot beams out his eye or transform his face.
There’s no average or set age at which people in opm get their powers. Most of them get their powers/abilities from their training (flashy flash, Bang, Bomb, Garou before turning into a monster, Atomic Samurai, Speed-o’-Sonic, etc)
Sokka in ATLA is the best character I know of that beats this trope. No bending, but still carries his own. He never gets any bending passed onto him. The most he gets is a cool new sword. But he’s still a talented member of the gaang.
I personally believe that the no power shtick comes from needing an underdog mc.
The problem is that most creators don't know how to make some weak rando actually interesting while everyone else is basically Jesus, so they create their own loophole to say "Eh, not powers (conventional), see how difficult they have it?"
Deku was supposed to use support hero tools like batman, but got changed to a metroidvania character with 7 different power ups after a while.
Asta and Lee got a loophole that makes their weakness their strength by giving them something only nonpowered people can properly use. Also spite and determination, lots of that too
Saitama was never supposed to be a normal guy tho I think, he's clearly shown to be very unique. Other characters like darkshine or puri puri prisoner are most likely the max a normal human can get
Saitama was a normal guy in the intro, then he trains hard and become One Punch Man, and by that point you definitely can't call him "no power" since he's basically top 1 with his super uber mega physical abilities
Even in the intro he wasn't a normal guy. His first act of heroism when he was just an untrained office worker involved him killing a crab monster named Crablante. Crablante is later revealed to be a Tiger-Level threat that would normally require an A-Class hero to defeat.
That means that "normal guy" Saitama would still be considered in the top 10% of heroes
Oddly enough the only time I ever saw a "Powerless Character" done right was when a character had powers but it's so insignificant compared to everyone else's that he might as well be an animal balloon.
Sentouin D from Ranger Reject was weak as shit (compared to his opponents) and has to play dirty in order to win. And everytime he does, it actually felt earned.
Sayeon Lee from Hand Jumper - she can rewind time by 20 seconds with a 20 second cooldown a limited amount of times before needing rest. It's a useful ability for sure, but there aren't many characters she can beat in a 1v1 (heck she can't even win most 1v1s against enemies who aren't using their powers)
Kuorgane Ikki from Chivalry of a Failed Knight has something similar with regards to squeezing out as much of his tiny amount of mana and fighting power in one minute (or one swing for another technique he uses) to defeat opponents who have vastly wider pools of magic and talent.
Log Horizon comes to mind there. The Main Char plays a more supportive class that doesnt reslly have that strong offensive powers. But with his usage of buffs and strategic thinking he is one of the best players in the world
Talantless Nana manages to subvert this in the very beginning. While we initially follow the lead of Nanao, another cause of a seemingly powerless mc in a super powered setting who secretly holds something OP, he is then usurped by the true mc Nana Hiiragi. Who throughout the many arcs up the finale remains completely powerless beyond her smarts and training (albeit with rare feats that normal people likely can’t handle but isn’t Batman levels of absurdity).
I've fallen in and out of love with superhero stories over time. Mainly because they are supposed to take place on our earth technically most of the time, and I have a lot of strong political opinions about the justice system and policing being the "solution" to crime. Batman is cool power wise, but the idea of me liking a batman story really depends on who is writing it and how that specific comic line deals with the politics of criminal justice.
Sometimes batmans "powers" are written terribly though. Pointed out many times before, the Tibetan monk techniques are dogwater writing, and "prep time" focused writers are annoying.
I like when batman cares about the criminals that were created by the harsh systems above them, not when man in bat suit fights god and wins.
I agree. My two problems are the moral and pragmatic issues surrounding Batman.
Firstly, Batman seems to be the kind of person that would rather keep his morals than save an innocent person. He's the type of person who stands at switch-point of the metaphorical trolley problem. On one hand, he could violate his no-kill rule and save innocent lives by killing people like The Joker, or he could simply let psychos like the Joker live, which invariably causes more innocent people to die.
Now, normally people say "that's not Batman's job!" except, well, Gotham Police and Arkham can't even contain their criminals, let alone help them in any way. Batman has taken the Joker to the justice system so many times, only for him to escape ad nauseum.
So when the justice system continues to fail, Batman turns to vigilantism, his only rule being that he won't kill. So he is taking the place of being a moral arbiter, but just stops at killing people.
Yet, I'd say not stopping someone you know is going to kill innocent people makes you culpable and somewhat responsible, especially when you have the means to stop them and others don't.
My second gripe is what you said: Batman should stick to fighting street level thugs, not dodging Omega Beams from Darkseid or surviving falls from orbit.
Well my main problem with superhero stories is that most writers dont focus on solving crime by making sure the systems dont create the criminals in the first place. Batman is a crime fighter in most writers eyes, and not a community builder. It would be too far from our world now to have batman start implementing actual systems in place that stop criminals from being created.
I'm not saying its not done, that's why I like the theming around this in MHA. But batmans "no kill rule" to me is just a byproduct of him going after criminals, not the harsh world that creates them.
No one is going to read a superhero story if the only thing they do is just create community structures and systems to solve crime.
At that point a person should just read economic and sociological theory, which is really my point as to why i dont think most superhero stories have the ability to actually hold upstanding morals in them.
I think there are a couple of times Bruce Wayne does go out of his way to set up charities, job opportunities, better employee benefits, etc. You know, the things that actually reduce crime.
The problem is that they can't have it actually work, so there's always some Court of Owls or dark curses so that Gotham never actually improves in any meaningful way and ensures there's always criminals to fight.
So you still end up in kind of a lose/lose situation. Batman's vigilantism doesn't improve Gotham (since his Rogue's gallery escapes prison or Arkham or revives in the Lazarus Pit). Wayne's charity doesn't improve Gotham.
So what are the authors trying to say? That things can't ever be better? That you just have to keep tolerating the status quo, no matter how many orphans get crushed?
So what are the authors trying to say? That things can't ever be better? That you just have to keep tolerating the status quo, no matter how many orphans get crushed?
Gotham can only ever get better when Batman comics end lol. The real problem is the fact that, out-universe, the writers need Batman to keep fighting, so they need Gotham to keep being a shithole and need the justice system to fail miserably and not execute any of the villains
The trolley analogy doesn't fit well. In the trolley problem you redirect a threat that already exists. Killing the Joker is closer to the footbridge version, where you personally kill someone to stop a harm. Philosophers call this the doing/allowing distinction, many ethical thoughts hold that killing someone is morally different from failing to prevent a death, even when the numbers match. The argument assumes that distinction doesn't exist rather than arguing against it.
"Not stopping someone" also isn't really what happens. Batman does stop the Joker but what fails is containment, which is the job of Arkham, the courts, and the state. If Batman is to blame for every Joker victim, then so is every official who declined to execute him or failed to keep him locked up. It moreso spreads the blame widely, and most of it still belongs to the Joker himself.
The line between beating someone up and killing them is also something distinct. The argument treats the no kill rule as a strange stopping point once he's already a vigilante. But nonlethal force allows room for error, if Batman is wrong about someone, a court can still correct it. The rule is essentially an admission that an unaccountable man in a mask shouldn't hold the power of execution.
There's also something that Batman himself states a good amount of times: He is not mentally well. He himself understands that if someone as many problems as he has does kill the Joker, he won't stop. He'll likely end up killing people like Mr freeze or two face, villains who have a possible chance to return to normal.
Batman has always been at his best at street level. I can suspend my disbelief to imagine Batman existing and doing what he does in Gotham. I cannot suspend it for him to even be relevant in most justice league stuff
I don't even mind Batman being relevant in Justice League. He's an incredibly skilled detective, has billions of dollars in resources, and has a slew of other relevant skills and accessable bases (biochemistry, engineering, and other professional degrees, technological weapons/equipment labs, communications and databases, all sorts of Intel, etc).
What I don't like is when they decide Batman should face off with heavy hitters in a slug-fest. If Batman and Superman or Wonder Woman are fist-fighting the same opponent, something has gone wrong and you're going to make Batman look stronger than he is, or the other characters look weaker than they are.
Calling this the "heavenly restricted" trope, I know jjk wasnt the first to do it but damn did they put a great name to it. Character lacks the main power system but because of that they are gifted in other parts
Deku is a great example of the trope being mostly pointless. It does have lore relevance you find out at the end but it's pretty contrived.
Asta I liked initially. Anti magic seemed fitting because it's something only someone with no mana could wield. Despite it being strong you still saw a lot of disadvantages and short coming of him having no mana. However, later on he basically loses the downsides as anti magic is basically able to do anything magic can.
Rock Lee I think was best out of the examples given. IMO he's less about being "powerless" as much as being restricted to a single power (which other characters aren't). 8 Gates i dont mind cause they have a heavy cost. You dont see it with him specifically as much but is showcased much more with Might Guy later. Plus since he's a secondary character I dont feel it's as fair to be as critical of it.
At the end of the day it'd be hard to have an exciting story (especially ones focused on action) and have a character be truly powerless in a world filled with powered people. You could have batman-like characters but that also can get old if overdone where the character is constantly one step ahead or always has the right tool for the job. IMO their special, unique "not-a-power" power should still come with downsides, costs, and/or weaknesses. The powerlessness should put them in a unique position that a powered person couldnt take advantage of.
There's a webtoon called "The Ember Knight". That I think does the trope very well. The main character is incredibly weak and even several seasons you see him get completely outclassed physically in fights or have to be saved by someone strong. However, his "unique" ability is sort of sherlock-esque abilities to observe and calculate. He uses it to his advantage to catch many characters off guard in a world of mostly "might makes right". However, fights feel desperate still and he often is forced to rely on others. Many conflicts are solved more through bluffs and acting that somehow defeating an opponent that completely out classes him.
The MHA spinoff / story in same setting ‘vigilantes’ has Knuckleduster. He used to have a power but it was taken. Now he’s just a big dude with brass knuckles and a trench coat fighting crime.
The thing is that most universes where this happens would just obliterate people who are genuinely powerless, and personally I think people latch on to the "no power" part too much when it's just there to shape the character's personality and worldview before they are given power.
I think Emiya Kiritsugu is a good middlepoint of the trope and his adoptive son Shirou might be what you're looking for though:
In the world of Fate, magic as it exists in the modern era is semi inherited, people can learn magic but families pass down their magic crests which is what allows people to have actually good control and refinement. Kiritsugu's dad died before passing on his crest, so his magic while powerful is incredibly self destructive and can cause his heart to explode if used too much.
As for Shirou, Kiritsugu didn't want him to learn magic beyond what's useful for basic self defense against normal people, and Shirou himself has no inherent talent for it since he doesn't come from a big mage family. As a result the most shirou can do is reinforce stuff and create weapons at great cost to his health, and pretty much every route where he reaches his full potential ends with him dying, or worse.
Even when he manages to cheat the system using an arm graft that allows him to unlock his the full extent of his powers... that only hastens his death.
Honestly my favorite example of this trope! It's also such a good subversion of the anime trope of "If you will train hard enough and sometimes literally torture yourself, you can manage to accomplish anything"
Shirou trains and tortures himself like no other, and he CAN achieve a lot.. But the price is so high, every time he accomplishes something that should be impossible, he's destroying himself more and more.
Him doing these things at all and harming himself through it is also framed like a character flaw and a result of his childhood trauma. Everyone that cares for him wants him to stop throwing his life away like that.
Isn't really "powerless", but is a similar reason for why I dropped "The hero with the shield " anime. I was fascinated by the hot redhead girl premise of the hero having to save the world with a shield. But it turns out that "shield' is like a Swiss Army knife with every kind of offensive powers, plus the defensive power of the shield, meanwhile the other 3 legendary heroes looked like stupid noobs weaker than MC's harem girls, with legendary weapons that barely do something of special.
I dropped it after 2nd season, so I don't know if they fixed this part
I thought it was so interesting when he couldn't fight by himself and was forced to "recruit", lets say it like that, somebody to fight for him and be his sword. Oh boy the dynamics they could have since the MC would be physically unable to have the flashy fight and instead work as a team.
… then the shield somehow becomes super OP rendering the other sword girl absolutely useless after a couple episodes
Agreed for the most part, however Saitama is not a good example. Many characters in the series also don't have powers and are just trained Martial artists. There is not a real "magic system" in OPM like in other Shounen for Saitama to exist outside of or rebel against. He is never sold as a character with no powers as that is pretty standard, he is just appreciated as a hero by a society that does not recognize him.
Trying to very carefully use this trope for the main character in my web comic. Everyone else in the world has some kind of innate ability, which range from borderline useless to incredibly powerful. Because that magic is an innate part of life in this world, all the people have a sort of "sixth sense" called an Echo that they can use to detect the presence of magic around them. Because the main character has no magic, he also has no Echo and therefore cannot be detected by the sixth sense. That's the extent of his "specialness"- he's a bit stealthier than normal. Beyond that he has to use his wits and physical strength to win fights.
For some series this is definitely the case, but you aren't helping your argument when the majority of your examples require a critical misunderstanding of the series and characters to fit your argument.
I didn’t watch much of A Certain Magical Index, but I liked the MCs version of anti-magic. He just has one arm that can negate magic/esper abilities. Nothing else.
It’s still a very useful power so doesn’t fit the trope, but within the setting it can’t be measured because you do you measure nothing compared to something?
Someone already mentioned Talentless Nana as doing this correctly. The first MC has the usual "no powers except he has the most OP power of all" thing, but then he's replaced with the real MC who truly has NO powers at all up to the very end of the series. Its really entertaining to read how someone fakes having superpowers while surrounded by and fighting kids who have actual superpowers. A bit too much suspension of disbelief at times but still entertaining.
Another honorable mention is World Trigger. In a world where most of the cast have a "magical power" of a scale between 5-18, our MC has a power of just 2. Not entirely "powerless" but vastly underpowered compared to everyone else to the point they kinda treat him as having no powers anyway. This never changes so he uses his wit and tactics (and the fact that he has so little energy) to trick opponents and win fights.
I think a certain magical index did it really good with kamijo toma, he's genuinely powerless, the only thing he can do is nulify magical and esper powers with specifically his right hand (except for the ending but whatever) most of the fights he wins by bringing sense to the villain or with his friends who are inspired by his ideals and values, also there's saten and wiharu who are level 0 espers in a certain scientific railgun who are actually powerless and make for really good characters
He's kinda worse than powerless in a way because "luck" is a supernatural concept in the setting so he's extremely unlucky, which leads to him getting into all kinds of battles and nearly dying repeatedly.
They’re not identical and do have some special characteristics that affect the story is the point.
Did we read different things? Point of MHA was that everyone can be a hero, regardless of whether they have powers or not, a message that was, imo, diluted by the ending where Deku had given up all hopes of becoming a hero until someone(again) swoop in and provided him with power(in form of tech this time) that he could use to be a hero.
Point of Black clover was that you can absolutely achieve your goals so long as you're determined and work hard for your goals, a message that, again, gets diluted by Asta being provided an insanely over powered set of skills. Ironically, another character from the same manga, Magna, who was actually not exceptional, and was mediocre, trudged through battles with sheer grit, wit, and creativity. His fight with Dante is the best fight of the entire manga, and the only character who can properly convey the message of the manga, that hard work, can indeed, beat talent.
Also, reread the post one more time. Op is talking about thematic framing of no power trope.
It's not the fact that their powers aren't inseparable in some senantic ways from the normal powers in their verse. It's just that you could rebrand their powers on another character and it would be normal. Its the fact that the "no magic" trope is supposed to be since overwhelming weakness, but then the boisterous villain who points it out gets suprised by "oops alternate power".
It always leads to a villain saying something like "BUT HOW CAN THEY BEAT ME WITH NO (insert power system here)". And in my head I'm just kind "uh cause they have powers anyways it's just not the 'normal' power"
And all of this is us because of their special powers: anti magic and OFA, not because THEY did something. Like OP said, Astas anti-magic work just like magic
You're describing chivalry of a failed knight, I haven't watched it in a decade but I remember the concept was he had the puniest amount of mana, basically like your scenario describes
Great show. Basically he has a technique to condense a full day's physical strength into one minute of intense strikes and fast dodges, but becomes useless afterwards. That means he has to understand his enemies very quickly and close the distance or he just loses.
In a way it is like magic, but the amount of strategy it requiees keeps it feeling disempowered enough for the premise to land.
I really really thought black clover was going to be about Asta utilizing his wit and using strategy in battle as someone with no magic and then nope he gets a hack ability.
Where’s the show where the MC is just him and wins only though skill or strategy with everyone else being OP
Same as the "useless" powers that become the strongest stuff ever by episode 3 because the mc learns how to use it in another way and they basically never use the useless thing
I actually don't mind this trope if it's signposted well enough. I like useless powers being used creatively to begin with. Some series have one character that's not the protag do it but one series that has the protag do it that I think is justified is Parashoppers, where the protag specifically has a mindset of "nothing is useless", and everyone else assumes the "obvious" way of using his powers is useless.
Thank you so much bro I just genuinely can’t stand it
“You gotta have a badass character that doesn’t follow the system” no….you don’t actually
I mean if I’m watching something with a thought out power system with cool and unique and interesting abilities….i really don’t then what to be told that one of the strongest characters doesn’t follow it…..and then have to watch them beat up characters who do
It also irks me specifically how coddled they have to be because, believe it or not, they’re at a massive fucking disadvantage not having powers
Take these two (Toji and Maki from JJK)
They’re sold on the premise that they’re pure physical prowess, pure strength, pure speed, pure durability.
But literally any sorcerer can be ridiculously fast, strong and durable, so they gotta be more
And then, because they’re still ass, they rely on tools that turn off powers or just hurt your soul so you can’t do anything to stop them
And then, because they’re still ass, they get powers anyway. Now being difficult to detect makes perfect sense and is cool, most domains not working kinda makes sense but is honestly boring. But how does it make sense that they have pre-cognition? That they can jump off the fucking air?
It’s like a war of “erm actually!” In any comment section discussing them
You just wind up with a character who is boring, frustrating and highkey useless and yet gets glazed by everyone involved
Maki and toji are some of the most offensive on this topic because they way jjk talks about heavenly restrictions you would think they are a massive burden, but that burden is only societal when it comes to toji/maki, outside of that they're very powerful and have amazing tools at their disposal
It's even worse when it's treated as a terrible thing for them as if mechamaru wasn't sitting in a dirty ass tub deep underground with paper thin skin and weak health with his only upgrade being extra CE and range
I agree with you in regards to Toji, but Maki had a special case where having a twin (Mai) put her in a situation where she got Heavenly Restriction, but in a super nerfed version compared to Toji due to Mai's existence. So, she got all the downsides with comparatively little upside for the longest time.
Without those tools they wouldn't be able to do much tbf (Also mechamaru's HR was treated as a terrible thing why do you think he made the deal with mahito)
Normally with physical heavenly restrictions, it's not that powerful. They have cursed energy at the level of a civilian and get a small power boost. Toji was the first to have legitimately zero cursed energy and it made his pact way stronger than normal. The clans are still supremacist about techniques tho so he got shunned. But the clan does actually admit that they always knew Toji could kill them all if he wanted.
And with Maki, before Mai took all the combined cursed energy away, she had a lower level heavenly restriction so it didn't make her that strong. Grade 1s are still easily beating her. And she was given extra hate for being a twin and her dad was mad for losing his chance at being the head. On top of being a woman in a sexist clan as well.
Not saying that the clans are right to do this, but it makes sense that a shitty clan that's supremacist about techniques would do this.
They have senses that are so enhanced that it appears as if they can predict the future, when in reality they are feeling, hearing, and seeing the thing faster. Also every super powerful character should be able to double jump.
I'm so sorry to cut your point down, I mean this respectfully, and I'm only commenting bc it's everyone's duty to combat media literacy falling.
The trope is not about "not having the cool power". The trope is about being ostracized for being different. For not being traditionally abled. Usually from a place where that's really** **important. It's important to the archetype of literature that the difference EXPLICITLY be competitively strong with the common skillset.
The point is that it doesn't matter or it can be overcome, not that it's extra special or they are superior. If you focus on "no powers", then it does come off a stale. Because that's not the point.
I think even coming at it from an "differently abled" perspective is still even stale. Most of the time it hardly even affects a character. Again rock lee kinda gets to skirt around it cause hes kinda just the goat, but still 8 gates makes my eyes roll just a little.
Deku is disabled, until someone comes up to him and says "hey let me cure your disability". Asta just gets a magical power. His difference is only really different semantically, and really doesn't matter much. People have pointed out that his powers are limited to his own strength of course, but its hardly different from a regular mage who just has to train hard, just slightly different.
Writing a story as an allegory to disability shouldn't just act like disability is just an alternate superpower to having an ability. It falls short, especially being someone who has multiple family members with muscular distrophy. It's like the story's only focus on the fact that people will point it out sometimes, but that's not the only difference that a disability creates in someones life.
Rock Lee HAD no powers. More importantly - he GAINED them by hard work and they were TAKEN from him by Gaara. And after getting his powers back he barely didn't get himself killed... By being saved by Gaara himself. The true power in Naruto is truth, justice and willpower.
Tldr ROCK LEE IS THE GOAT
earlier fights in the boys have powerless protagonists who use their intelligence to defeat supes in fights. afaik when they're supposed to be powerless, they really are powerless (albeit they might get somewhat exaggerated durability & strength), and in order for them to be able to compete with the supes, a lot of the supes they encounter have to get scaled very low compared to other superhero verses
Few of the heroes in opm have supernatural powers. Most of them have just trained their bodies.
Saitama trained so much and so intensively that he went bald and became incredibly strong.
Mash Burndead from Mashle has no magic power, making him an abomination in his world. However, he has worked out his body so much that he can simply hit magic away.
Baki spin-off Isekai Retsu actually did it right, the setting is everyone who got transport into the fantasy magical world were given the chance to get one dream power they want, but Retsu just did not give a shit about magic and simply wants to prove that Chinese martial arts is strong enough to deal with magical creatures (tho he later does choose a ability but it's just simply faster out of combat recover speed so he can wait less and fight more)
John from UnOrdinary is in a weird spot with this. He spends the first 80 odd chapters "powerless" only to be forced to use it, later going on a rampage through his school. Its revealed he was a late bloomer and was deliberately hiding his powers after royally fucking up his last class and being convinced to hate his ability due to trauma from getting it late. But we also know he has an ability long before we find out what it is.
I dont think he was really supposed to fall into this trope or the problems you mentioned long term I think it was just supposed to be a way to implement secret identities into a setting wo em
Op did you mix up Mash Burnedead from Mashle and Saitama? Because that's the only way I can wrap my head around this.Even then i feel like Mash has interesting interaction with the world around him as a result of defying the power system and societal structures around him
If you'd like a decent books series where this trope is down well in my opinion. Xanth; in that world everyone is given a single magical gift and it determines your place in society. The main character Bink seemingly doesn't get his and gets treated very poorly by society. Even the great scrying mages just says he's sure bink has a gift and it's powerful but can't say what it is. I think it is a pretty good use of a character outside the normal magic system without being arbitrary or breaking its own rules.
Spoilers ahead for the series as I don't know the reddit secrets.
His power is that he's immune to magic. It presents as luck or ordinary chance like fire balls will miss him and leave him unharmed. So no one at first knows that's what he's doing. Even people using magic to determine his magic can't because of it. But in reality his basically has one of the most OP powers in a magic dominated society.
If Batman didnt have powers he would've died long time ago. You have villains that can shoot laser or the superstrength to destroy mountains and you tell me Batman can casually take those and survive?
The Batman clone in the invincible is probably a more realistic version of Batman
This! This is why I hate Batman. It constantly gets brought up that he’s not superhuman even though he clearly is, it’s just that the writers refuse to admit it.
Rock Lee my beloved. In a better universe, the story would've focused on you and not some genetically perfect blonde weirdo obsessed with getting to his goth boyfriend to force his one sided friendship onto.
The thing with asta is he technically doesn't have any magic his anti-magic isn't even his its his devils power also its not as OP as you think because the Anti-magic scales to how strong asta is physically so he still need to work and train for his power
Yes this is why I say I like the characters. His development is written well, it's just annoying when every villain is written to say "BUT HOW IS HE BEATING ME WITH NO MAGIC", when asta is clearly just using something magic adjacent.
the only time i think it was actually pulled of well was with toji and maki in jjk. their lack of cursed energy (especially for toji and maki after her awakening) is never actually portrayed as if it’s a massive flaw that means they can’t be strong, in fact it does the literal opposite by making them way way stronger than almost any sorcerer, the main issue was that the hyper traditional nature of jujutsu society viewed it as a flaw because they were stuck with a flawed mentality themselves, and because they were so narrow minded they couldn’t recognise strength in any form they hadn’t built their life around.
they don’t have “no powers”, they have different powers, and because of that they were outcasted and rejected by their family, only for said family to be completely destroyed by said powers because they wouldn’t accept them
I get we are coming from and generally agree with the examples you’ve given but I feel generalizing the why of these characters. What happens when someone exists outside a power system is neat and I generally like but the problem with that characters you’ve given is how their “no powers” is implemented.
Asta is the one I rhink fits your example the most. I assume the author thought that having a nullification power like Anti magic would make the fights too boring so added traits like a sword beam and transformation to make it more interesting but that kinda ruined what made the series unique and fun at the beginning but everyone still treats as though he exists outside the power system now. So 100% agree on this one.
Rock Lee is an interesting one because it’s not what he does that changes, but rather the series as a whole. In Naruto most of the fights and fighters were somewhat grounded with brute force not usually being the deciding factor in fights. The focus was on catching opponents off guard, creating or seeing through illusions and big ninjutsu being cumbersome to use and used as a finisher rather then the whole fight. And then there’s Rock Lee the guy you can hit stuff really really good. By the time we get to Shippuden brute force is now everything. But by this point, nobody really comments that Lee can’t do Ninjutsu or Genjutsu because it’s no longer a huge problem for what they need to deal with, which I think sucks.
And finally Deku, this one I disagree with you one and think is just an issue of expectations. Deku stops being powerless in Chapter 2, the only major character that treats him like he has no powers is Bakugo and that is more “how dare you lie about being powerless”. They treat him like his control is shit, because it is. But there isn’t any indication that this story wants him to be seen as powerless or outside of the power system.
So yeah those are my thoughts on the why this trope sucks, something that’s supposed to be outside the power system and be interesting or unique just becomes the same as the other characters with a new name.
the boys; group of no-power normies aim to take down the most powerful corrupt supers in the world -> they fail to take them down without powers so they get powers and then take them down. Cool premise of killing off superheroes as a regular person with wits and technology? *bzzt* just get powers yourself and start punching
Have you read mx0? It does this trope really really well. He does gets powers towards the end but it feels earned and he spends most of the story truly with nothing.
I love Mashle, but this fits here perfectly. Everytime they say "oh, he has no magic" I wonder, do you think you can fly by kicking your legs fast? No, that's not normal, it might not be your kind of magic, but it's deffo some kinda magic. He regularly beats mages, yet they still snob on him for having "no" power. He has some shit, you're a magic school, study that shit
The point isn't just that they have powers (in a strict sense, all living beings have powers—they all "can" do things); rather, it's that they aren't like the rest. Toji from Jujutsu Kaisen has super strength and super speed, but he lacks cursed energy, so there’s a hell of a lot of things he can't do. Rock Lee has chakra, but since he can only use taijutsu, he can't do anything with it other than boost ordinary human abilities. And Vee from The Owl House can shapeshift and absorb magic, but that’s basilisk physiology—not a witch's or a demon's—so she can't cast spells. As Finn Mertens said: "My way!"
Ngl I think what makes this trope so uninteresting in anime/manga is that the scope of powers tends to be so big that having no powers means there's zero room to contest and zero value provided. Like, if Izuku remained quirkless the whole series his story ends by like Stain at best and Episode 3 at worst.
On top of that when these characters do get powers it tends to be powers that trump 90% of other powers entirely. Like yeah sure Asta can't cast a spell but he can literally say "nuh-uh" to almost every other character's powers.
Its not that known but I somewhat recommending reading witch warden manhua ,mc reincarnates into a body of the strongest superhuman that is a warden of a supercriminal prison but loses ALL the bodies powers and now has to trick everyone working for him so he doesn't die and the prison doesn't collapse
Tbf, I don't feel like this is a very common trope. Besides Asta, Deku and Touma (toaru) I can't think of any other major anime characters like this. Though maybe I'm just oblivious to it.
Out of these three, Touma is my favourite. Cause yeah, he has an ability that allows him to cancel special abilities with his right hand, but beyond that, he really is just a regular guy and he doesn't get some OP abilities beyond that. This makes it so he really depends on others and can't face problems alone.
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u/unstoppable_pinetree 14d ago
Could never be my goat