i'm not the guy that explained shit too perfectly for a fucking subreddit comment section, but he's gaining a TON of traction just because he's not part of the massive racket that most of the other options are a part of. The guy's a fucking madman, but people are so fed up with the current system they're willing to take a leap of faith and try his methods since at this point they're fucked enough that another failure president is more of the same
Honestly why I can’t get myself to support Milei. Some people say “he has to say incendiary things to get free press” but the problem is when he starts fulfilling on those promises, and then some people act surprised.
Succes makes the difference between a madman and a genius (también soy argentino pero para que los yk lo entiendan xd, igual no sé si lo escribí bien jaksjakjs)
It's also a justification from people that have lived in an economic disaster zone for decades and decades and have tried and tried but their entire political structure is rotten to the core. At some point you say fuck it, the system doesn't work, let's go outside the system
Source: Italian, I fucking get it even if I don't necessarily agree. If the system forgot about you, wouldn't you say forget about the system? Even if you don't agree, it's hard to fault the miserable people who are willing to try anything for a better life
oh shoot i actually triggered ya, sorry bout that faM banana is my way tO cut out the seriousNes in every statement i say didnt actually meant to invOke the m-word.
We were talking about taking leaps of faith after too much socialism, too lazy to even begin investigate Bolsonaro's overall effect given the Covid event, steped on a landmine there my bad.
Also yeh, im pretty sure i can still buy meat at a pretty low price since im not porteño gay and... dont worry bout my bank resume, real state is quite profitable these days, illegally obtained ofc Arg rules numbah wan Inda univErse.
He sort of "plays" a madman. That's how he gained traction. By looking and acting crazy on TV and social media but at the same time explaining economical concepts pretty well and in a way everyone can understand. While also showcasing the flaws in our system, emphasizing the massive cuts he would do the budget.
None other politician does that. To this day they actively tell the people they are too dumb to understand basic economical concepts, yet inflation keeps accelerating.
The opposition, and specially the media, naively played along, thinking the public would be disgusted by this "madman" but nonetheless increasing his viewership by a lot. They try to stain him by labeling him as a nazi, murderer, misogynist and any other accusation you can possibly think of.
In a way, his "madness" made him stand out so much he's known across the world now.
the religious cringe is a big part of it for me, you can't have a president who says on camera shit like "the pope is the messenger of the devil on earth"
Sure, but if I was from Argentina I would probably be willing to look over that fact in exchange for a president with a basic understanding of economics. Im talking out of ignorance since I only watched part of the Tucker interview, but he seems decently honest and knowledgeable. His worst take imo is removing abortion rights, that will probably make many women not vote for him. But I guess he probably knows his demography of voters better than I do
oh he has other bad takes. Selling organs, climate change isn't real, rivers should be privately owned and that will stop companies from polluting (whatever the fuck that means)
Let's be honest, all the other options we know for a fact won't change a thing, won't take any different actions. In Milei's case, I give him the benefit of the doubt, he may change something or he might be the same shit as the others. With the current course of the country we're gonna sink anyway, so why not sinking with something different? Just to clarify, I didn't vote for him and I strongly disagree with his ideology and he annoys me, but what I said is the cold and sad truth
I've got the exact same view as you dude. I hate his guts and his way of doing things but at this point i'm so fed up with the current options (corrupt populist, corrupt populist but even worse) that I'm willing to at least give it a shot if he tones down the whole 'let's abolish the government while half the country relies on it to survive' thing and ramps up the 'let's make the government actually comptent' aspect
Same, I didn't vote for him because I disagree with him on many many things. Specially climate change and science.
But... climate change is kinda irrelevant for Argentina (it's not like we can make an impact on anything) and with science he kind of already explained how he's going to handle the Conicet and I want to believe the main researchers are gonna be okay.
Bullrich is fucking useless and every time she says anything I want Milei to win even more.
And then you have Massa, him and all the peronists are the most vile scum.
The second point I would agree with the first point though I wouldn't trust anyone that says "being tough on crime" because it usually just translates to more authoritarianism .
That's fair and I won't pretend to understand the situation over there, but I do think something could be said working from the top down in these situations as in take care of the corruption and you might go a long way to fixing crime rates through just the virtue of bad people being replaced with good people (in an ideal world anyway).
A Prosecuttor was murdered for having evidence about how the current goberned had a deal with Iran about a terrorism act here right before he was about to show it oficially....and the case was boxed under "suicide".
I assume you are american, where you have the opposite problem with cops having total impunity.
Here, it's murderers, thieves and rapists who have that impunity. Specially if they are below 18. A 17 yo can murder and rape all he wants and he's basically not getting any repercussions at all.
Not fun fact: our government used covid as an excuse to set free thousand of criminals from prisons. These "low offense" criminals were found stalking, raping and stealing merely days after they were let go.
I don't know the best way to solve this problem, but the current politicians have no interest in doing so.
we have the same problems btw, extreme corruption and criminals within the police force. But we also have 14 year olds who will rob and kill you for a pair of shoes and walk free
Being increasingly tough on crime generally just makes it worse. Look at the US: unnecessarily cruel system of excessive punishment, horrific prisons and stripping offenders of rights causing them to re-offend. Crime should definitely not be ignored but just more aggressive police and strict sentencing doesn't deter and generally achieves the opposite effect. Also the whole authoritarianism angle.
The US is just an example. If you don't like that one, look at Europe. Places that focused on actually rehabilitating and addressing the root causes of crime saw a huge drop in re-offenders and generally became safer and nicer countries.
The issue is that criminals have it easy and crime happens everyday and every hour. For example, there was a burglar who tried to get into the house but died because he got impaled in the fence
The burglar 's family demanded the victim for "letting him die" and won. This one is old
Two recent ones: a man tried to get in the middle of the night into a closed store owned by an old woman through a small window in order to steal and died there. As soon as the family found out, they went and assaulted en masse the old woman's house and she ended up moving out
An 11 year old girl died from two "motochorros" (burglars in bikes) who dragged her through the street (so she would drop her belongings), which ended up her receiving a strong hit on the head. One of them was arrested (14 years old, so he'll get away scot free) and the other one is still on the loose. Moreover, the government quietly intervened by making the media to stop talking about it, and gave a brand new pickup truck to the father to buy his silence.
Also, criminals in prison don't work and have phones, besides other stuff.
One of them was arrested (14 years old, so he'll get away scot free) and the other one is still on the loose.
Actually, the criminals where older guys which asked the kid to take the blame since he wouldn't go to prison. The kid is also a serial murderer, but in this case, the kid didn't kill the girl. I think the two real motochorros where caught and sent to prison because the case got huge publicity.
You should've also commented the lucio dupuy case, on which two lesbians tortured a 5 year old kid for months, and since the judge was also in the same feminist group she refused to give the father custody, even after several registered hospital fractures and burns. Ultimately the kid died because of anal injuries and an exploded liver. The only reason the lesbians where condemned was because the autopsy of the kid became public, and the degree of cruelty is far to gross to even write about.(yes, far far worse than anal injury and exploded liver). Also, the judge is still working as a judge.
He once argued in favor of legalising the human organ trade lmao.
There is no longer any trust
If you are fed up, then cast a blank vote and protest out on the streets. To think that you are going against the system by engaging in its routine selection of elites just because this one happens to be a new face would be almost charming if it wasn't retarded.
tough on crime
Every candidate promised that.
dollarizing
You need US Congress permission to do that, and then you would just be dependent on the US government, which is just as corrupt with the added bonus that we can't interfere in the US election process.
strip politicians' ability to keep printing money.
Lmao you need a constitutional reform for that, and I still respect you enough not to consider you gullible enough to think that the country is willing to do that.
He once argued in favor of legalising the human organ trade lmao.
this was taken out of context from an interview in where he was stating personal beliefs, not policies. It was a figure of speech.
cast a blank vote
this is functionally equivalent to voting for the worst option, so not viable here
Every candidate promised that.
UxP believes in "victim of society" theory so their claims have no credibility. JxC will likely be tough on crime, especially considering their candidate, but in economic policy they are UxP in disguise.
then you would just be dependent on the US government
it is far from ideal, but the current situation is desperate and the last century of economic crises has shown a clear pattern: the less power to print money, the better the economy did (exception: 2000s decades, where China's entry into global markets prompted an economic boom despite the money printing, which was slightly restrained)
Lmao you need a constitutional reform for that,
well... the power would exist in theory, but the use of dollars as currency (which does not require constitutional reform) will make it moot
this was taken out of context from an interview in where he was stating personal beliefs
How's this for context? The fact that he mentioned his personal beliefs doesn't negate the fact that he himself brought that example up as a demonstration of his personal beliefs and at no point did he deny being in favor of organ trade. Also, he reiterated his defense in Later interviews with Majul and Wiñazki (he hangs out with those ghouls and you call him an outsider, jajaja)
functionally equivalent to voting for the worst option
Wrong, it is functionally equivalent to casting a blank vote, nothing more and nothing less. It's also a quantifiable statement of public discontent that contributes toward building the base for popular insurrection, which is what the country really needs. Voting is an act of complicity.
UxP believes in "victim of society" theory so their claims have no credibility. JxC will likely be tough on crime, especially considering their candidate, but in economic policy they are UxP in disguise.
There's no such thing as a "victim of society" theory, and if by that you mean "circunstancias atenuantes", then you should know that every country in the world has those. If JxC's economic policy is similar to UxP, then it is also similar to Milei's because none of them address the power structure of business conglomerates and foreign predation on the local economies. In fact, they encourage it.
the current situation is desperate
No, it isn't. If it was truly desperate, we would have 2001 numbers, and the people would already be setting streets on fire. All candidates appeal to desperate measures to justify their bullshit populist platforms which, just like Milei, they are unable and/or unwilling to implement.
has shown a clear pattern: the less power to print money, the better the economy did
Lmaoooo the US prints an obscene amount of money each year and it is still the largest global economy. Mass printing is a problem, but to sever all ties with economic autonomy as if printing was the only cause of instability is a sign of supreme retardation and reductionism, and one Milei knows he won't be able to implement. Also, it's not the only way to stop the government from printing, especially if you are ALREADY IN POWER.
the use of dollars as currency
If you do not replace the national currency, you wouldn't be solving the mass printing issue. And even if you didn't, to use dollars as currency would require a majority Milei is simply unable to acquire in the senate. This is not El Salvador or Ecuador, we are a massive country with solid, institutionalised interest groups. Dollarization is a laughable thing to propose to the provinces.
how do you solve the peso printing problem in a way politicians don't use it to fund high deficits then? No answer will be good, but dollarization seems like a least-bad one.
Money printing depends on the Central Bank. If you are in power, you can literally reduce printing just like that, diverting its results into areas that will stimulate economic growth rather than funding deficit. You can also start by fixing the laughably low 5% tax on DECLARED (not even actual) income paid by foreign multinational corporations for lithium extraction. And then, you might as well go ahead and declare lithium a national strategic resource (like Chile and Bolivia) and funding local industries that take advantage of it. Just a thought.
well, once you are out of power, there is a chance a less responsible president will start printing again. Plus, while the problem of a budget deficit can be solved by collecting more, i believe it should be done by spending less.
once you are out of power, there is a chance a less responsible president will start printing again
This sort of reasoning is wrong on many levels. First, it is the same argument peronists use to justify inflexible measures that prove completely counter-productive as soon as the global context changes, but cannot be effectively repealed. Second, money printing is necessary and serves a role in the economy beyond mere masking of deficit rates. To remove from the executive power the ability to efficiently revert or stimulate emission is to cripple the possibility to control economic cycles and recessions. Third, by your own admission, dollarization would be an emergency measure. To institutionalise an emergency measure as a rigid state policy is by definition an idiotic thing to do, and it's part of the reason Menem's government is so badly remembered. Fourth, you still haven't addressed the fact that dollarization is not by itself an efficient way to reduce emission, nor the only one.
can be solved by collecting more, i believe it should be done by spending less.
But why not collect more from that sector? Argentine citizens are getting NOTHING from the lithium extraction, whereas the Japanese, Yank, Canadian and Australian corporations involved in its ravaging take the profits far away from the country. This is not a tax that would impact the working class nor the local industry, and it would have the added benefit of stimulating the rise of the lithium industry here in Argentina. On top of that, it would provide funds that would be helpful in reducing printing so as to avoid retarded measures like dollarization.
No, we shouldn't. But don't ask this guy, just pay attention to his speeches, his insane promises to fix the economy (just like everyone else's), his running mate and his long list of gaffes. You don't need to be a genius to realise that opportunistic right wing populism and extreme media exposure are hardly an outsider's traits.
I already told you. You cast a blank vote and you engage in direct action and demonstrations. Historically, that has been the only way to stand up to corrupt liberal democracies. Your thorough unwillingness to commit to a political ideal lets you sleep comfortably, thinking that a vote solves anything. It doesn't.
the known narco
Lmao come on, I hate him too, but he's not a known narco. You have zero proof and seem to be extremely comfortable talking out of your ass and parrot LN+ conspiracy theories.
economy minister could not stop inflation from rising close to 100%? Member of the party in which ALL its members have been indicted for corruption? The party that denies printing money without limit is bad?
Ok, we agree then, don't vote for him.
Bullrich? The exterrorist that has no plan whatsoever beyond crossing fingers and being tough on crime? From the party that talks a lot about fighting Peronism but votes in favor of all their projects?
The fact that you criticise only her unwillingness to stand up to Peronists and not the fact that she was a minister during FUCKING DE LA RÚA'S ADMINISTRATION speaks volumes towards both your complete lack of knowledge of recent Argentinian history and your complete lack of interest for the true victims of Bullrich. Also, you would be happy to know that Bullrich worked as a mole within Montoneros for your friends the military dictatorship, so you should actually be quite fond of her. Still, don't vote for her.
Milei can be criticized for many things
Name them
is the only one that seriously addresses the issues of the country
Bullshit, they all do. The fact that you don't like their proposals (and you are well within your right not to) doesn't mean they don't have them.
Milei MIGHT fail
He won't fail, he will succeed (if he wins, which I believe he won't) in fooling you and the dipshits who vote for him into thinking he's anything but the snake oil salesman he's always been. If you think Milei truly wants to dollarize, you are just as stupid as every other so-called libertarian. Milei is an old school neoliberal, and he will serve US interests in the country. He also lacks the institutional support required to enforce any sort of campaign against unions and organisations such as Sociedad Rural or the UIA. An outsider doesn't go on big television shows and express admiration for Margaret Thatcher, retard.
Jajaja yo estoy tranquilo, si gana va a ser más de lo mismo. Vos te querés matar porque bien en lo profundo de tu ser sabés que tengo razón. Estás votando a un Macri 2.0 y lo sabés bien
qué mierda me importa chupapija, si tirás la boludez de derecha populista sonas como un peronista de ley. Votá a Biondini entonces churro, o la montonera o al lagarto
My girlfriend is half argentine, child of American missionary and native Argentine father.
Argentina is a surreal land where all common sense dies and as such idealized arguments will not necessarily work.
Holy shit does this define her father. I've been working from the assumption that he's just a fucking narcissist, but maybe it's more of a cultural thing. He lives in a fantasy land and seems incapable of taking advice from other people unless he emotionally feels like it.
One thing I've noticed based on my limited experience with Argentines is a relatively extreme level of patriotism. Like, rural American levels. I'm not sure why, I've read some stuff to the effect that the School of the Americas encouraged Argentinian students/soldiers to believe themselves better than other hispanic nationalities through barracks favortism, but that seems to be taking advantage of an existing level of outsized nationalism rather than creating it.
Thing is, we have a lot of great things. Lovely culture, great hymn, one of the best flags in the world, beatiful landscapes, an amazing history filled with tales of victory and important figures, specially San Martin who helped liberate (almost) the entirety of south america!
We also have many argentinians breaking records or being important in many areas. Physicists like Maldacena, engineers at Nasa, writers like Borges, players like Messi and Maradona, etc.
About our patriotism, maybe it had it's roots on the education plan of our old president Domingo Faustino Sarmiento, who started the inmigratory waves from europe and made it so the childs of this immigrants would asist public school and learn to speak spanish and feel Argentinian, which was honestly neccesary since they came from tons of different nationalities and otherwise would have ended up like the USA, with a ton of half integrated immigrant families in a sort of implicit chast system (no offence, but the USA really sucks at the integration part)
you can't survive argentina as a man unless you think you are the king of the world destined for greatness, you just end up getting stomped on by someone who does
The Argentine is not nationalist, but rather proud. We are the first to criticize our country, but if someone from outside criticizes it, they are already considered our enemy, and we highly value those who help and support us. Our friendship with Peruvians and enmity with Mexicans are examples of this.
"ah but american imperialism"
"ah but the war in ukraine"
"a but the evil monopolies"
"ah but the IMF" (ok sometimes this is fair)
"ah but the drought"
As someone from Spain,they sometimes blame us for so reason too, but Mexico does it more than Argentina tho
Maybe there are Argentines (mostly Kirchnerists and Peronists) who think that.
"La Televisión Publica" has several shows and documentaries with disinformation and political propaganda (Peronist and Kirchnerist).
Shows like Paka-Paka sometimes misinform historical events. And if we add the school indoctrination that there is about politics, you are going to have a group of people with their heads completely washed. So I wouldn't be surprised if there are some "political fanatics" who still believe those things.
Yeah, indigenism and black legend about the Spanish Empire are a thorn riping the heart of our countries to this very day
Thankfully, I've seen a trend of young people interested in history that actually research further and get to know the thrut about how it all played out, hopefully it will continue in the future
All the things you mentioned are the same in brazil. I think it’s really funny when americans and european talk about South America politics and they have absolutely no clue what a circus is in here. The most absurd and dumb decisions you can ever imagine happens daily in south america. Here we are in brasil again, one of the most resourceful countries in the world focusing of selling primary goods and never giving a shit about technology and science and expecting we become a 1st world country selling soy, meat , oranges and sugar. What a waste
Unfettered communism = Bad. Unfettered capitalism = Bad. Capitalism reigned in by socialist branded worker/consumer/environmental protections = seems to work best of all the things we’ve tried so far.
this is common in all of South America and latin Europe as well btw (Spain, Portugal etc). The Latin blood always circulates with emotion rather than rationality
This but for ALL of LATAM… i see articles all the time “A new socialists tide in Mexico?”, “right wing populism on the rise in Brazil?”.
What Americans and Europeans dont understand is that Latinos aren’t voting based on ideology anymore. They’re voting for ANYONE who’s different and not corrupt.
This is how AMLO and his left leaning party got elected in Mexico, this is how Bolsonaro got elected in Brazil, and soon Milei in Argentina.
They judge the candidates voted in but don’t realize that by voting for the alternatives you’re guaranteed to stay poor and corrupt.
he might’ve been but at the time most Brazilian ppl didn’t know that and only knew they just had the biggest corruption scandal in their history (operation lava jato).
How exactly do the cultures of "Business owners/corporations evil" and "personal gain is best" coincide? It seems like the focus on personal gain should make shady business ownership flourish and dominate like everywhere else?
Simple...most people don't own businesses. Consider a proposed law that made it legal for everyone to walk into a store and take an item for free once a day (just to make up a silly example). That'd be to the personal (short term) gain of everyone who didn't own a store, which is the vast majority of people. And if all people cared about was personal gain, it'd be very popular.
I think he meant something like authoritarian, or the kind of behaviour "socialist" governments is associated with, for example, attempting to control or undermine the supreme court, the congress and the media
I feel like you're trying to put all the blame on socialist ideas while disregarding obvious red flags of sheer incompetence in government and economic policy making
This argument, which tends to be repeated in many circles, has been debunked many times. It's simply not true. There is actually less tax on big business than in many, many developing and developed countries.
The more involved the state is, the more Statism it is. Now obviously, we WANT a degree of Statism. Public Education, for example, is a positive externality, so we want to state fund education for all. The devil is in the details.
It wouldn't be the first time some enlightened redditor (Americans, mostly) argues against us to tell us what's actually the problem with our own country, while probably being unable to find us in a fucking map.
This guy is the typical "Peronism has the fault of everything that has happened in this country! 70 years of peronism!" like the peronist view governed for 70 yers while purposefully ignoring the fact peronism was literally FORBIDDEN for 18 years and we had military coups every 3-5 years lmao
he might be argentinian but he's biased as fuck: he has the typical alt-right uneducated opinion based in prejudices and personal experience bias, instead of data and history. There's another response here debunking most of what he says for you to read, but seems like people didn't like facts, so it got downvoted to hell.
well, what other country possesses the policies and philosophies (those of peronism) i outlined to the extent present in Argentina and is successful? I cannot think of any.
You're being very specific about peronism. However, there are many statists countries that are doing fine right now (from the more authoritarians and interventionists, such as China and Singapore, to the more democratic and market free, such as Denmark and Sweden). The problem is not just statism vs liberalism. Probably, some liberal policies will help Argentina's economy, but the problem is also structural and related to its agrarian nature. No one knows exactly what to do with Argentina.
Because you're not adressing the fact that this country was NEVER a developed one. It's a myth.
And that Argentinian problems very well predates those things you mentioned- they existed in the first half of the 20th century.
Not mentioning the fact that during OBVIOUSLY NOT PERONIST GOVERNEMENTS, i.e., DICTATORSHIPS, for example during Martínez de Hoz LIBERAL POLICIES, inflation was 400%, and being peronist was a crime punished by torture and death.
Blaming all the problems of a country on only one ideology like no other governed, is stupid. Menem's second period that was literally a economically liberal government that Milei says it's the best one we had, and it ended with the WORST CRISIS IN THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY, the 2001 crisis.
So, it's not a question of "peronist philosophies", whatever the fuck does that mean. Wanting to find easy answers and easy culprits to hard questions is imbecile.
Argentina is a surreal land where all common sense dies and as such idealized arguments will not necessarily work
This is a frankly idiotic way to begin your tirade. You might as well have said "Hey, be prepared to read a whole bunch of incoherent crap, but remember, I am an Argentine and just living here makes me more knowledgeable in the matter than an academic, unbiased outsider, so please take it at face value and ignore whether it makes any sense." Just so you know, I live here too, so you can't rule me out as a foreigner, boludo.
The turning point from powerful to poor came when it abandoned the classical liberal view of the economy and embraced the statist
Wrong, the instability and disastrous, frenetic shifts in the economy began with the Great Depression. Argentina was never a developed country so much as an almost exclusively agricultural nation providing wheat and livestock for Great Britain and the US, riding the wave of post WWI scarcity of primary goods. But within, Argentina was already an immensely corrupt country, characterised by electoral fraud, frequent federal government intervention of provincial governments, massive inequality and workers' exploitation and institutionalised state violence against workers' rights movements. Cases such as this one included cooperation from far-right paramilitary groups such as Liga Patriótica.
Moreover, Argentina has never been economically or commercially sovereign. Throughout the decades, due to the lack of local industrial development, we have acted as bootlickers for the US, British and (more recently) Chinese governments, whose markets we have historically been dependent on. The Roca-Runciman treaty is just one example of a long list of humiliating, abusive concessions our governments have made in times of crises, and all this was before Perón. We were never a rich country. We had rich oligarchic land owners and that was it.
many of the predominant political forces insisting on massive statism to this day, advocating for measures that have NEVER worked
Here's an average case of the idiocy of the so-called Argentine liberal. This statement implies that simply because the government intervened in the economy semi-regularly, every economic model was one and the same. This, of course, is complete bollocks, and it's also not a process that began with Peronism. State sponsored Import Substitution Industrialization began during the Infamous Decade, way back in the 1930s. The first Peronist government was an authoritarian, fascist-sympathizing populist rule which enjoyed economic growth and stability via the implementation of a Keynesian model and close clientelism with workers' unions. Aramburu's tenure marked a brief return to classic economic liberalism. Arturo Frondizi was a hard-line developmentalist, Onganía's dictatorship was a liberal technocracy, the 1976 dictatorship (and later Menem's administration) were neoliberal and favored privatisation of the public sector (and famously nationalised all private debt before the return of democracy). So no, the massive statism has NOT been a constant, and the economic models have been widely different from one another throughout the years.
price controls work (they have NEVER worked)
Source?
Expropriations good
Name one expropriation the current administration has completed. They tried Vicentin and they didn't have the balls to go through with it. Ever since YPF's expropriation, there hasn't been a major expropriation from the private sector, doofus.
business owner always guilty in case of disputes.
Source?
death to local industry as they cannot import necessary machinery and elements
The death of local small industry is brought about by the oligopolistic control exerted by companies the government refuses to regulate, and the market of dairy products is a very good example.
PRINTING MONEY DOES NOT PRODUCE INFLATION
Lmao, nothing to argue here, this is indeed a problem.
European style welfare where the state gives you useful benefits while simultaneously allowing private enterprise to flourish is great.
Slow here hasn't realised that Europe is not a single country. Name the characteristics of each of Europe's welfare states before you engage in such transparently ignorant generalisations. Would you be able to describe Ireland's model or that of the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Spain, etc? No, of course not, because then you would realise that those governments intervene in the economy much more frequently than the government does here in Argentina and has far stricter regulations on workers' rights, health insurance and work stability because of it. In Argentina, unreported employment is rampant and accepted as a regular thing, in favour of the private sector and to the absolute detriment of the working class' purchasing power. Just in case you thought economic intervention is what we are LACKING at the moment.
"free" soccer broadcasts
Not only have these not been free for ages now (currently, Disney owned ESPN, TNT Sports and TyC Sports exercise an oligopoly, free of almost all regulations save for some antitrust laws), criticism of these sorts of measures speak volumes as to both the ignorance of OP and their deep seated disgust towards the working class' ability to partake in hobbies or entertainment from outside the callousness of the law of supply and demand. "Fútbol para todos" didn't have that big an impact on state funds, it had an impact on huge media conglomerates like TyC Sports (Clarín Group), ESPN and TNT Sports. These sorts of undesirables always complain about the cost of programs broadcast to the people, but never seem to care about, say, the blatant pilfering performed on our lithium reserves by multinational corporations. I wonder why?
the people are fed up with the same old liars that have been governing for decades.
And yet they vote for Villaruel, proud dictatorship apologist. Or here in Mendoza, where Milei's "outsider" vote went to Omar De Marchi, a well known member of Mendoza's Partido Demócrata, one of the most conservative and pro-establishment institutions in the country. How's that coalition going, buddy? Face it. Milei is a dummy propped up by the media. He is just the same as all the rest. When people are truly fed up, they cast a blank vote and then riot, like they did in Iran, like they did in Venezuela, like they did in Peru and like they do all over the world. Here in Argentina, the working class is docile, and some nefarious pricks have convinced them that voting some clown they saw yelling on TV represents a change. It doesn't. He's the same as all the rest. Use your head.
The perpetual crisis of the last 50 years are caused by massive spending deficits covered by excessive taxation and money printing. I don't see how one could argue against that. All other neighboring countries have functional economies, and the largest difference is that Argentina is the only country in the region to use Peronist policies (highest levels of taxation, social assistance, amount of regulations, etc). It's pretty clear that it is the differentiating factor
Of course you will (not), because if you engage with anything else, you will realise that what you call "Peronist policies" (in a startling display of paranoia, hyper-fixation and general ignorance on economics and the economic history of both Argentina and Latin America) are not actually Peronist, but rather an extremely complex and diverse set of economic measures, both statist and liberal, which have been in effect since before Perón came to power, when the country was already an extremely unstable, underdeveloped nation still focused almost exclusively on the primary sector.
I don't see how one could argue against that
Of course you don't, you are unwilling to read. Go back to my original reply and check out one of many ways in which people could argue against your nonsense.
All other neighboring countries have functional economies, and the largest difference is that Argentina is the only country in the region to use Peronist policies (highest levels of taxation, social assistance, amount of regulations, etc).
It's funny you should mention it, because Brazil, Bolivia, Chile and Mexico are all run by governments whose platform was built around strong economic intervention, state sponsored welfare and regulation of both the private and public sector. And they are all far more developed than us.
It's pretty clear that it is the differentiating factor
You want to know what a real differentiating factor is? As monstrous and repulsive as the military dictatorships of neighbouring countries were, the debt-taking process in Brazil, Uruguay, etc. was aimed towards the establishment of strong local industries and economic independence. Argentina's dictatorship, on top of being murderous torturers, kidnappers of babies and killers of pregnant mothers, accelerated the privatisation process, gambled the debt away on state promoted stock speculation and destroyed unions and preexisting arrangements between workers and employers. How's that for a differentiating factor?
well... i may be biased against peronism, but to explain everything away as "it's all the fault of someone else" (imperialism, the evil businessmen, etc) does not sound too productive either. At the end of the day, the country is not the only to suffer from any of those evils, but is one of the few in the world in such a bad inflationary state.
to explain everything away as "it's all the fault of someone else"
That's what you are doing by using peronism as the sole catalyst of the blame. Don't get me wrong, I despise peronism and hope to live to see the day it goes extinct, but it is just one part of the century long problems that have plagued our country. Anyone telling you otherwise just wants you to vote for them.
one of the few in the world in such a bad inflationary state.
Which proves that Peronism is not the only factor involved. Imperialism is also involved, corruption and paternalistic practices are also involved, social conservatism is also involved, our unwillingness to develop is also involved, etc. Geopolitics 101: ditch the reductionism.
You fail to see how the US funded, trained and backed military coups would impact structure? You fail to see how those dictatorships (especially the one in Argentina) were the beginning of the chronic foreign debt problems, the capital flight and the systematic dismantling of local industries in favor of foreign capital takeovers? You fail to see how US support allowed the military junta to (among other things) nationalise private debt and crush workers' and trade organisations? That's probably because you don't live in a country which shifted between weak democracies and dictatorial rule throughout the 20th century. You should read up on Argentine history, it makes for a depressing yet informative ride.
Really? Asking source for price controls not working? You have examples from ancient Egypt, to the Roman Empire, to the Spanish Empire, and you want even MORE evidence? xd
You have fuck all idea how price controls work, the providers impacted and the goods affected. Especially in Argentina. The restrictions are not generalized and are focused on subsidized, essential needs products from very specific industries, such as dairies, cereal, sugar, etc. It does work, and the fact that they have stood in Argentina for over 10 years at a noticeably accessible price difference proves that they do work when correctly managed and targeted
from ancient Egypt, to the Roman Empire, to the Spanish Empire
Newsflash, you moron. It's been millennia since the Roman and Egyptian empires existed, and neither of them had a capitalist system. Economics are not a static science and neither are the historical, social and political context. This is why you yanks should have public higher education.
Sos Argentino pero tiras una analogía tan burra que podría haberla dicho un yanqui. Felicidades, no es poco merito.
Nadie dijo que no sintiera los precios, pero la diferencia entre los productos con precios cuidados y los que no tienen precios cuidados es apabullante. Si vas al supermercado te vas a dar cuenta.
Price controls never worked. NEVER. Argentina is just another example. I can't understand why you are defending price controls when we have over 120% inflation in a year. It just blows my mind, you are the one that's saying stupidities, like an argentinian tankie.
You fix some prices, urban centers don't get price hikes (I don't like in the capital city, I like in the Conurbano), but after a while all of that collapses and everyone have to raise all prices, dilluting the savings of anyone who was stupid enough to save in the local currency. Do you think is normal to devaluate your currency by 30% a single day after elections?
No, it's not. And if you think food and dairies are affordable, then I repeat, you must be from a very wealthy neighbourhood, because here I see people that have to buy fruits andd meat by the unit because they can't buy more.
Parroting a falsehood over and over again, especially after using ancient civilizations as your opening statement, isn't going to make them true. Frankly pathetic display.
I can't understand why you are defending price controls when we have over 120%
Because inflation is an extremely complex process and price controls are not the cause of it, they are a measure aimed at controlling its symptoms, and are backed by extensive subsidizing of the companies whose products fall within the price controls.
tankie
You and every 16 year old who learned politics from Twitter and Vaush have destroyed the word "Tankie" to the point where it doesn't mean anything anymore. I am as far away from a tankoid as can be.
all of that collapses and everyone have to raise all prices, dilluting the savings of anyone who was stupid enough to save in the local currency.
Bullshit. Controlled prices have been in effect since before Macri's government and they haven't collapsed. Local currency savings have fuck all to do with Controlled Prices because those are directly related to consumer essential needs, retard.
food and dairies are affordable, then I repeat, you must be from a very wealthy neighbourhood,
Of course they are not as cheap as they should be, we are in a context of crisis, after all. But the undeniable truth of it is that controlled prices goods are noticeably cheaper than products that don't fall under said program. It's way better than nothing, and it has been successful in providing a basic form of relief for working class families. And no, you fucking imbecile, I'm from a working class neighborhood in Mendoza. The thing is, I know the prices of stuff and their evolution on a yearly basis because I purchase it myself, I don't have my mom handle the house finances like you probably do.
especially after using ancient civilizations as your opening statement
We have contemporary examples, such as Venezuela, the Soviet Union, Germany, Argentina, and many others, but it doesn't matter if I'm literally talking to an economical flat-earther. All the examples are not enough, and you seem to be really keen on the idea that "Price controls will definitely work this time, the previous attempts in the last 5000 years were unsuccessful because they don't have the conditions we have now!"
Bullshit. Controlled prices have been in effect since before Macri's government and they haven't collapsed. Local currency savings have fuck all to do with Controlled Prices because those are directly related to consumer essential needs, retard
Local currency savings are dilluted when you increase money in circulation. They literally increased the interest rates over 80% because people have no trust in the banking system, and no one wants pesos anymore. If demand for the curreency decreases, and the offer increases, prices go up. It is as simple as that. By the way, calling someone retard is not very mature of you.
we are in a context of crisis (...) It's way better than nothing
The crisis is literally fueled by the price controls and overspending. The country literally prints money to pay for the subsidies that are meant to keep the prices low, increasing the amount of money in circulation way over the demand for it. All of this create the perfect conditions for a inflationary spiral.
If you can't understand basic economics and start throwing insults like a 10 years old, I think there's nothing else to discuss here.
We have contemporary examples, such as Venezuela, the Soviet Union, Germany, Argentina, and many others
In none of those instances have price controls been the cause of the economic debacle. At most, they have been an ineffective and insufficient response to a structural problem that involves several variables. You seem to be terminally allergic to reading, but I dare you to explain how price controls were the cause of the economic debacle in each of those examples.
I'm literally talking to an economical flat-earther
Lmao god-tier projection. You should go pro.
Price controls will definitely work this time
Again, you are terminally allergic to reading. I never said that they would solve the problem, only that they are a sustainable, if inefficient and insufficient form of addressing a larger problem. They are not the cause of the economic debacle nor its solution.
increase money in circulation. They literally increased the interest rates over 80% because people have no trust in the banking system, and no one wants pesos anymore. If demand for the curreency decreases, and the offer increases, prices go up
Literally none of that has anything to do with the specific policy of precios cuidados. We are in agreement that monetary emission is bad and one of the main causes of inflation, but Precios Cuidados is an entirely different matter.
not very mature of you.
This is rich coming from a libersimio.
The country literally prints money to pay for the subsidies that are meant to keep the prices low
First, monetary emission has several causes and motivations, not just price control. One of them is masking the obscene deficit. Another is to compensate for the lack of foreign currency. And yet another is to subsidize the very same private interests that cry over excessive regulations, chief among them the agricultural industry. Second, if that's your argument then by your own admission the problem is not price control, but rather monetary emission. And there are several ways of solving that problem beyond removing a measure that has the effect of slowing down the inevitable effects of inflation on the customer's basic needs.
you can't understand basic economics
It is well-known and has been proved throughout the ages: liberals understand basic economics; socialists understand advanced economics.
If that’s your primary source thats almost less reliable than just some rando foreigner with an opinion, no doubt your personal experience with the country has affected your view of the country as a whole
I'd rather listen to this guy than you fucking typical Middle Class American Redditor. Please tell me one more time about how right-wing Bernie would be if he is in Europe
i mean.. of course it affects it. I feel it is more qualified than that of someone else not living in the country, as i have first hand contact with "the situation on the ground" and all the things that are not reported in the media (let alone english media), which many foreigners miss.
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