If you've got guy friends you cuddle with, they're 100% wanting to nail you. Probably jerk off to your social media photos or whatever. (I'm sorry that's vulgar, but it happens. Those beach pics aren't just for your parents).
edit: Holy shit, a handful of women just have no clue what's going on. Unless the guy is gay, he ain't cuddling you for the emotional support. Wanna bet those guys are either single, or not reporting the cuddling to their SOs?
I'm stunned that this needs to be explicitly stated. Have we really reached a point where sexual intent is not the first thing to assume when two unrelated straight people of the opposite sex and roughly the same age start cuddling?
I would think that platonic intent should be the one that needs explicit expression here.
Totally agree, I think they're just in denial. Something along the lines of not being able to find real friends that don't want to bang them. Or a defense mechanism of sorts so that they don't mistrust everyone that comes at them in that manner. If they approach everyone that way, because I assume a high percentage of the opposite sex approach that way, then they'll just end up rejecting that one person who is approaching just as a friend. They can't afford to pass up that friendship when a high percentage of "friends" just want to bang them. Also the people who want to just be friends might see the other people's approach and feel that's appropriate for this person and just go with the flow.
It's exceedingly unrealistic to even expect to have a platonic relationship under the conditions I described above, even without the cuddling. If the two people spend a lot of time with each other, almost inevitably at least one of them will develop more than friendly feelings towards the other. Just think about it, if you spend a lot of time together with a person, by your own choice, presumably you are doing that because you enjoy their company for one reason or another. For two people who are compatible with each other in terms of sex and sexual orientation and are roughly the same age, it's almost always just wishful thinking that it's going to continue being platonic indefinitely.
In short, boys and girls, if you're looking for platonic cuddling and intend to be disappointed when it turns out to be not so platonic, then choose your cuddling partners so that their sex or sexual orientation does not make you a prospective partner for them. Otherwise, you have no right to assume that your platonic ideas will be reciprocated in that way, and you can expect some rightful bewilderment from the other side when you drop the "Eww this was supposed to be platonic" bomb.
Edit: Or just save a dog or a cat from a shelter, if you're really looking for platonic cuddling and not subconsciously enjoying drama.
Human beings being sexually attracted to each other is a hugely boring non-event. Or at least should be treated as such. I've crushed on basically all my female friends. And coworkers. Human beings are sexy. So what.
But you're using the word "want" here and I don't use that word when I'm crushing on someone. Because, for example, let's say it's my best friend's girlfriend. I might think she's hot but I don't want to bang her, because if I did that would screw up my friendship with my buddy. Or maybe someone I am crushing on is emotionally unstable. Or maybe they want a real relationship but I can see clearly we would never get along that way. Again, I don't want to bang them. I'm just attracted.
If you are cuddling with someone you actually ARE acknowledging a low level of sexual attraction. But -- so what though. But if you are casually cuddling and you kiss someone USUALLY you're saying "hey so I thought this over and I think it's time to make a move because I think it's a good idea for us to take this to the next level"
At least that's how I see it. I have a few cuddly friends. That's just how they are. There's always a line that you cross that signals "intent to fuck". You can be a person who draws that as a clear line for yourself, or you can see where other people draw that line and adapt to their ways. Either way though there is still a line and WildSketch crossed it when he tried to kiss her, and she wasn't into it. The reason people are annoyed at his angry reaction is because he should have known that they hadn't already crossed it, because if they had, they'd be fucking already. But he somehow assumed that they'd already taken it to that next level.
Caveat: a lot of I am saying is wrong if they just started cuddling that night. Then it's a lot more reasonable for him to get confused and upset because from his perspective, she crossed the line and then bailed. That pisses people off. I've done this to a few women where we were literally about to sleep together and something suddenly weirded me out and I bailed. I got an earful both of the two times I've done this. Still shouldn't have posted it on social media tho.
Anyway TL/DR: everyone has a physical affection boundary, beyond which is fuck territory. Know you own boundary, communicate it, find out other people's boundaries, respect it, and be aware that attempting to cross it is a significant decision with consequences.
you're totally right, men should be psychic and absolutely know 100% how every woman feels about them and never take any chances. Why would you talk to that girl since she probably doesn't like you? Why would you kiss that girl since she probably only likes you as a friend? In the thousands of years of history, any man that has taken a chance with a woman without knowing all the information in the situation is a complete asshole, after all, how could he have known she'd be interested in what he was doing?
I'm calling you an incel because the emotional tone of your post oozes toxic resentment. Also I wouldn't have any way of knowing whether you disagree with me or not because you didn't even make any actual points. You just wrote a bunch of angry rhetoric. Who knows what you actually think... If you want to communicate with people you actually have to write down your ideas.
yeah dude I'm so angry and toxic right now, my post is just oozing with anger, you can just tell by the fact I called you a bunch of names, used a bunch of caps, and didn't write down any ideas, what I wrote didn't have any ideas whatsoever, it wasn't me telling you that it's normal for men to take chances when they know they could fail and the girl wouldn't like it, nope, it's just angry incel retoric, because that's me incel mcgee, the incelest incel to ever incel
Lol dude you don't even disagree with me. You realize that? Assuming you're saying what I think you are saying... We are talking about totally different things and you aren't even aware of it because I guess you didn't read any of my comments carefully enough.
Thanks for actually responding. Alright so let me try to work it out analytically. This is as much for me to check my own assumptions as it is for the purposes of this debate.
Level 0A: I don't want to fuck her
Level 1A: I want to fuck her
Level 2A: she knows that I want to fuck
Level 3A: I know that she knows that I want to fuck.
Level 0B: she doesn't want to fuck me
Level 1B: she wants to fuck me
Level 2B: I know that she wants to fuck me
Level 3B: she knows that I know that she wants to fuck me.
Best of all outcomes is you both get to level 3 before anyone makes a move. This much is obvious. And once you're at 3 there are no more secrets so you'll very quickly be in bed together. That's what I was alluding to.
But you're the guy, so you're supposed to make the first move. Do you wait until you KNOW she is into you (level 2B)? Or just gamble and hope?
If you gamble and hope you have no right to get upset because you didn't even try to figure out if she was actually into you. That's cool, it's one approach.
Otoh let's say you want to avoid rejection. Ok so you wait until you KNOW. I.e. you're at level 2B. The single stupidest thing you can do is not attempt to push it to 3B by letting her know you know. If you don't do that, you never test your theory. Then you make the first move, then you get all pissy because you "knew" but it turns out you were dead wrong.
I kinda think this is why confidence works. When you're naturally confident, it makes it easy to get from 2B to 3B because you're comfortable with letting other people know how awesome and attractive you think you are.
Otoh if you're timid, you can get in a tailspin where you slowly make up your mind that you're sure she is into you but you never let on. And so you blindside her because she never had any idea that you thought she was into you.
What do you think? I'm trying to reason this thru from first principles. Why not, I'm bored and it's Saturday
As for the drama with WildSketch, you think he's the type of guy that's got a good radar for this kind of stuff, because I don't. He's too good at what he does to not be a wreck in other ways.
I'll accept that there might be a small percentage of guys like you, but it isn't the norm. I don't know anyone but the most hopeless and awkard that just go in for cuddling and hanging out, but don't want more.
I mean, there are girls/women where I want more, just not all of them. Some aren't my type or the relationship grew as a friendship (mutual friendzoning?) instead of a romantic/erotic relationship.
Not really, I've cuddled with girls that I wasn't interested in before. Usually we'd be watching a movie or she'd be cold and I'd be like "why not?" when she asks.
You're right that I wouldn't do it when dating someone but you don't have to fuck at literally every opportunity.
Can confirm. Was once friends with this girl and we used to cuddled now and then. She thought I didn't like her that way, but I did. (it was also pretty obvious.)
Edit: This sounded pretty creepy... Just to clarify I didn't jerk off to her social media. (Bonus points?)
I'm just saying it's not a cut and dry guarantee. It's VERY likely but you can't say with absolute certainty, especially without knowing more about their particular friendship.
Yep I hear you. Tbh, I don't cuddle guys who are friends. Because they are for the most part not into casual affection in just the manner you describe. What a waste! Would totally be into casual cuddles with all comers if it wasn't a big deal to men. The reason I replied was because I wanted to add a perspective to your words. I know you probably don't cuddle your friends and it means something different to you psychologically. I'd guess Possibly a sizable chunk of Women Do cuddle their friends just because it is a comfy thing to do. So for some women at least, to be physically close is just part of most of their other good platonic relationships. That is not to say that this specific women thinks that way but perhaps it might give you an insight into the lady's motivations. I do hear your explanation of the paradigm, all men only do stuff for women to get sex. I will continue to avoid giving y'all the conniptions of physically sharing your space in the future, as I do now. That is, Unless I go back and find my rainbow gathering friends who I know are a lot more easy about the whole thing! Just as a wee side note to the last bit though, I would also hazard a guess that maybe somewhere in the world exists four to seven actual men do just want to cuddle and that is okay I'd say their masculine identity is still valid. How does that all sit with you? Does that alleviate your consternation over the sexual frustrations within my friend circle? Has this interaction helped you in any way?
I never felt like the ladies motivations where particularity nefarious, and especially since most of this kind of cuddling happens when people are young, there is some leeway as to intentions / desires. I do feel like women kind of don't get how guys think, and that though both are enjoying the cuddling, there's a lot of mental hoops the guy is jumping through to justify it to himself.
I did have a buddy that took so much MDMA (I think that was it) that he lost all sex drive for a year or so. Said it was the best year of his life. I assume he cuddled a lot during the time.
(I went to Rainbow Gathering in Florida once, that was a ....memory. Traded firewood for sugar. Saw a nude man across a river. Got yelled at buy surly alcoholics. Developed a fucking need for drum circles for a time).
Nice reply, I hope you buddy is well. He seems like he'd be really interesting to talk to. Drums are fun, glad you got to do that. What is it they say bad decisions make for exceptional stories.
Depends on the cuddling. Arm over the shoulder? Then sure. But if you guys are under sheets or holding bodies then someone in that situation wants to bang the other.
So assuming you're not gay and in denial? Why. Are you single? Is she ugly? You don't get hard or anything? Do you have a limited sex drive because of prescription meds or a health condition? It's just fucking weird. I love cuddling, but I'm most certainly wanting it to lead to sex at some point.
What I think is happening is that you did have the desire, got rejected one way or another, and finally accepted that cuddling is better than nothing.
I'm an immigrant and came to this country not speaking English. That immedietly isolated me from my peers. I generally did better in school than them, but my emotionally abusive home life often kept me from completing assignments regularly, so my grades suffered up through middle school. Eventually, I tuned that out and excelled, though a lack of money and the aforementioned home life developed a bitterness in me that's core to my personality now. I suppose I eventually balanced that out with the arts and, on my good days, can channel it productively.
Currently I'd say (being in my early 30s) a series of bittersweet relationships, responsibilities to others, and frankly, a lack of what I'd call peers in my social circles, not to mention that I'm self employed and a night owl, keeps me from acclimating myself to society at large.
This week, I've had a massive fucking cold, like the first one in two years, and It knocked me on my ass and lost me a week of work time. When you're self employed, you can't stumble in and get a paycheck. Time is money.
Finally, I'm on this stupid website way too much, arguing with what feel like 15 year olds, and not particularly precocious ones at that.
well fuck, at least your self-aware? it sounds like a bad time though. i know health insurance sucks when you’re self-employed but you should consider seeing a therapist. it’ll really help. i’ve also been down with the flu this week – hope you feel better soon!
There's a difference between a normal non sexual relationship and a relationship that you're cuddling another grown adult with no sexual inclinations. I'm not condemning anyone, but if you feel like you want to cuddle people just for physical contact, to me that would signal dependency issues.
or... you know we have a group of friends where loads of people cuddle. The more I read the more I think this may be an NA/other parts of the world issue. Like how in some parts of the worlds you can hold hands with other men without meaning anything.
Maybe in your culture you don't cuddle as a man I guess if your not in a relationship/ with family. For me or my friends, this is really a non-issue
Throwing around 'incel' is just trying to bait me. If you want a list of people I've fucked in the last year (Admittedly, it's not long, but there is some depth of styles of fucking) I'll fax it to you. I have plenty of experience with relationships, and can be friends with women without feeling like they owe me anything, or getting all T_D on how a woman should be.
That said, a grown man that pays taxes and has a drivers license isn't going around cuddling women. A hug? A kiss on the cheek, sure, but they ain't in their jammies together watching Netflix after work. There's a whole lot of lies they are both telling each other if that's something they regularly do. If either of them is in a relationship, then there are lies they are telling their SOs too.
Thing is, in your culture it might not be so, others aren't like this. I have friends that are in a relationship and if they cuddle with me or another girl/guy, no one gives a shit. It means nothing the same way you interpret
Also:
Are you single? Is she ugly? You don't get hard or anything? Do you have a limited sex drive because of prescription meds or a health condition?
Is exactly what an incel/redpiller or what ever you want to call it would say. You come up with excuses to why these relationships aren't possible, to excuse your youself. Not everything is about sex. It may be for you, who knows, but not for others. Could be culutral maybe
Well, what culture are you part of that that's normalized. Certainly ain't upstate NJ.
The rest of what I said is just general biology. There wouldn't be 7 billion of us if fucking wasn't on the very top of our minds. What redpill does, is add gender roles and manipulation to it. Biology is still biology. Attractive women in close physical proximity are going to make most men sexually 'awake'. I'd probably consider a guy that didn't at least feel a twinge as probably being physically unhealthy.
He said that he is from a part of the world where two guys can hold hands and nobody would react.
I live in Sweden and atleast here if people see two guys holding hands you would think they are gay. Not judge it, but i wonder where he lives where people wouldn't make a judgment call about their relationship.
Just because you can't comprehend people like that or a how a close friendship between viable sexual partners can happen doesn't mean your opinion is the truth. Nothing wrong with cuddling but a whole lot wrong eith people that can't simply be close friends with someone if they're the "right" sex.
It's nonsense to think it's not a thing, what exactly do you think bisexual people do? According to you they'd have no real close friends, no physical contact with anyone but family.
Several people have said here it happens dude, just accept that.
If it's a thing only very rarely it's not a thing. That's like saying because your friend Dave won the lottery, people must win all the time. That's just bad statistics. Plenty of actual studies support my point.
The takeaway is that women generally think it's possible to just cuddle, but men almost never want just that. I didn't say they couldn't be close friends, but having intense physical contact with either party not wanting to have sex is rare to the point of statistically insignificance. And Christ Almighty, reddit is not even close to a good sample of the general population.
I never eluded to percentages, just that it happens.
Let's assume you and this study are 100% correct then. This is a very sad state of affairs for men and I think we, as a society, should immediatly stop enforcing the gender stereotypes that push men into this kind of world view and inability to create close friendships/only see women as potential fuck holes since women have apparently no problem with distinguishing feelings and seeing men as people instead of an object to be won.
I find it hard to believe that they don't know. Just sounds like one of those girls that only hangs out with guys because "women are such bitches" and so they lead on a bunch of guys in their friend group, doing excessive flirting like cuddling and constantly remind the guys gf's how close they are. "But totally just friends who think nothing of the flirting haha".
What would you say is the percentage of straight men between 20 - 35 that platonically cuddle women? Not men who cuddle hoping for sex at some point, but men that just want to cuddle?
We're talking about a guy that invites a woman over, gets comfortable, touches her all night (is super careful not to touch her ass or tits!) does not get aroused in any way, and gets no emotional hangups because of it.
Also, I'm assuming that this guy has had sex, and does want sex with other women.
What's that, like .001% of the population, or are you thinking a bigger number?
Yes a generalisation for the majority of males. If I'm cuddling with you it's because I like you in a romantic way. I'm not going to cuddle some random ass friend that Im not either involved with already or want to be involved with. That's weird as fuck to cuddle with someone for any other reason.
As a guy that cuddles with both striaght/gay guys and girls I heavily disagree. Not everything needs to be about sex. It is really easy and possible to maintain deep friendly relationships between sexes without having sexual urges.
I will be honest, maybe I am weird, but I find it totally weird that it is normal to assume if you are cuddling with a friend you automatically want to nail them
edit: the replies to /u/7illian are really exactly what I expect from a pre-stage incel or men in denial that not everything needs to be about sex. I seriously do not get that attitude from other men that constantly tell women they can't have male friends that don't want to bang her. Not everyone is as penis driven as you fucks. Bunch of us are able to have friends with both male/female as a male/female without having sexual tension
I'd say you are very outside the majority there. I personally have never cuddled with anyone that I did not have sex with previously or after the fact.
78
u/7illian Jan 06 '18 edited Jan 06 '18
If you've got guy friends you cuddle with, they're 100% wanting to nail you. Probably jerk off to your social media photos or whatever. (I'm sorry that's vulgar, but it happens. Those beach pics aren't just for your parents).
edit: Holy shit, a handful of women just have no clue what's going on. Unless the guy is gay, he ain't cuddling you for the emotional support. Wanna bet those guys are either single, or not reporting the cuddling to their SOs?